Handcuffed woman who died in Airport Daughter-In-Law of Democratic Activist

[RamboLiberal]

Carol Ann Gotbaum, the mother of four who died in a cell at the Phoenix Airport, is the daughter-in-law of NY's Public Advocate, Betsy Gotbaum. The family is said to be monitoring the investigation.

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2007/09/carol-ann-gotba.html

Betsy Gotbaum is the New York Public Advocate. A longtime civic leader, this is her first elective office. She is a Democrat.

Gotbaum, a trained teacher, became involved in civic affairs in the 1970s, while serving on the staff of former Mayor John Lindsay. In the 1980s she served as the Executive Director of the New York Police Foundation, a non profit group which supports the New York City Police Department.

From 1990 to 1994 she served as New York City Parks Commissioner in the administration of former Mayor David Dinkins. In this position she oversaw all of the city's parks and beaches, along with recreational programs. She was a frequent presence on local media during her time as parks commissioner.

After leaving the Parks Department, Gotbaum became President of the New-York Historical Society, a position she held until launching her campaign for Public Advocate in 2001.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betsy_Gotbaum

Interesting twist to this case. Perhaps this woman believed in fighting for her rights. Or maybe it was just a stupid act and a stupid death. At least it appears it will get a full investigation as it should.

[NoodleBoy]

1. that's horrible, but it doesn't sound like she was "fighting for her rights"

[Boudica the Lyoness]

2. No just fighting for her life

Why does a woman have to be handcuffed while inside a cell? What the hell is wrong with YOU people?

[NoodleBoy]

4. gee, I don't know, it's not like she was acting hysterical in the airport or anything

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/30/phoenix.airport.death/

Witnesses told police that Gotbaum was "yelling and screaming" and running through the terminal Friday. She was arrested for disorderly conduct.

While handcuffed, the New Yorker became "disruptive" and she was taken to a holding room, where she was left alone, Hill told CNN affiliate KTVK.

Yeah, sounds to me like she should have just been left to run around screaming in an airport, nothing to see here, just a 45 year old woman acting naturally, not like there's any need for anyone to be alarmed.

[lligrd]

6. I Didn't Realize That Acting Hysterically Meant You

deserved death these days. Times are a changing.

[midnight]

8. Wow, me either. I think that you are on to something about

different times. A chaotic net seems to have been thrown over America.

[MADem]

10. Are you suggesting that she was deliberately killed, there?

That the hapless airport cops meted out a punishment?

Sounds to me like a horrid accident.

Bet those holding cells aren't left unmonitored any more after this incident.

[TheMadMonk]

12. No. Throwing a tantrum like a spoiled child in "secure" areas get's you arrested.

Continuing to act like a spoiled child gets you a room without a view, until you're ready to act like an adult.

I doubt very much, if this much is any sort of fabrication. Video evidence and witnesses would put the lie to the story far too quickly.

It is what happened subsequently to this that is in question.


One possibility is that she just kept ramping it up an up and up until she managed to get herself killed whilst being restrained. Not good, but not necessarily police brutality either. A less likely variant is she managed to piss someone off enough with her behaviour for them to "lose control" themselves. Very not good and entirely unacceptable, but still essentially "human" behaviour.

Another is the official story that she managed to choke herself while trying to get out of the cuffs. Two inches of chain is never going to wrap around someone's throat. However it would be very possible to snag a piece of clothing and somehow strangle herself. It might (if she was flexible enough) even be possible to get an elbow over her head and choke herself with her forearm. Very, very flexible people CAN get their linked hands from behind to in front of them, over their heads. A moderately flexible person attempting the same thing, might end up with one arm over their head and the hand of the other under that arm (from behind) and themselves in a self inflicted "headlock"/"chokehold".

And then we get down to some sort of malicious intent. Which is not something we can speculate about in any meaningful way without far, far more evidence than is available to us here.

[Crabby Appleton]

13. I agree, took the words right out of my (keyboard) mouth. nt

[KoKo]

15. Yes.....one must be in control of one's emotions at all times in a Police State...

or 'they' will make sure you learn the consequences even if you don't live to tell about it.

[TheMadMonk]

23. That may well be a good/smart idea.

However, what I said applies anywhere. Once upon a time a bloke acting in the manner she did, would find his wrist between his shoulder blades for a walk to the door, and then a face full of tarmac. (About what still happens in nightclubs today.) A woman acting the same way would more likely receive a slap or a bucket of water for her troubles, because once upon a time we knuckle draggers had this strange idea that women were frail delicate creatures.

There is a limit to how much shit one human being should have to take from another, particularly if they are in their "own space" and if they won't stop dishing shit, then someone WILL and bloody well should MAKE them stop. As gently as possible certainly, but stopped they should be.


What is going on in America's airports might well be "police state" material. I happen to agree even. However, that does not mean each act, is the act of a police state. Sometimes it's just ordinary policing. And sometimes it's just ordinary policing that has a tragic, but unintended outcome.


Do you people even know how much like "Free Republic"ans you sound. You have already tried and convicted the airport cops and you don't need no stinkin' evidence, because you KNOW what MUST have happened. And it's not just here and there. If there's a cop involved, then the same people pop out of the woodwork each time and try to paint that cop as an evil stormtrooper, and the injured party is always as pure as the driven snow.

And not just cops. If it's "right wing" and something bad happens, well blame assignment is never a problem.

[jgraz]

45. Well, we can chalk up one more frog as properly boiled

:thumbsup:

[Zhade]

117. Christ, the authoritarianism is multiplying.

What the fuck is wrong with people like that poster?

[Mudoria]

46. This is DU.. stop being logical...

:thumbsup:

[loudsue]

50. My, my. Isn't our AUTHORITARIANISM showing?

Bad, bad citizenship deserves all sorts of brutality. A face full of tarmac, even. Can't let people scream & holler now, can we?

[TheMadMonk]

70. Right so everyong within earshot should put up with an fully grown adult...

...throwing a tantrum, because she can't have her own way.

I'll bet you're the sort who's excuse in a crowded restaurant or theater is, "She's only a baby."

No one deserve brutality, but no one has demonstrated it here, though many have claimed it must have happened without evidence to support them.


What we know is she threw a tantrum and when the airline bumped her to the next flight, the best it could do, she escalated her behaviour. She was restrained, and no witnesses have come forward to claim any brutality there. She still would not moderate her behaviour and was removed to a quiet room until she calmed down. And somehow she died.

Now it's forget the facts/or lack thereof. This is a police state. YOU know how a police state operates. Ergo, she must have died as a result of some (probably malicious) action other than her own. Now if you jest wurk on ur speeling...

[Zhade]

118. You are excusing, at best, wrongful death for being upset.

You sicken me.

[TheMadMonk]

132. You are assuming wrongful death with no !@#$%^&U* evidence.

According to the witnesses, the cops behaved with reasonable restraint all the way up to the point the door closed. Why are so many people assuming that the gloves came off the moment that door closed.

At the moment, or since I have not gotten to the bottom of the thread, to the best of my current knowledge this is an unresolved death in custody:

• It needs to be fully investigated.
  
• Any recommended steps need to be taken to prevent a repeat occurrence, or at the very least reduce its incidence.
  
• If there was bad behaviour on anybodies part, then it needs to be punished to whatever extent that behaviour warrants.
  
• Perhaps rehab centers might consider changes/additions to what they tell people who book in.
  

I do not think her death was right. I do not think her death was justified in anyway. I do not think it was acceptable. I do not think it was right that she died if her death was foreseeable, WITH the information the arresting officers had at the time. I do believe that if anyone was responsible for her death, either deliberately or through reckless act, that person (or persons) should be punished to the full extent of the law. In fact, I feel that police, and any other holder of a position of responsibility, of the law should be held to a higher standard than civilians, both in their behaviour and in their punishment/restitution. Citizen in good standing DO NOT deserve privileged treatment. They get advantage enough in their representation if/when called to task.

BUT since I do not KNOW if anyone was actually responsible and until I do, I refuse to make biased hate filled assumptions that have no basis in fact.

Freeptards have an irrational hatred of blacks, gays, Asians, ... Well we all know the list. Looks like Dupetards have their own list of people who are irrationally hated.

I agree that in the current clime there is good reason to be more mistrustful of most of the groups on that list. And more watchful of them at any time. But that is mistrustful and watchful. Not to mindlessly assume that every individual associated with those groupings must be morally corrupt and responsible for any and every "bad thing" that happens around them. Sometimes shit just happens (snagged clothing) and sometimes people manage to do something fatally stupid (a contortionist move that tangles half way with a forearm held across the throat).

What if the cop supervising her had checked several times and breathed a sight of relief when it stopped, giving it a few minutes for her calm to "take" not wanting to set her off again by appearing before she regained full control (as with a child). And then having found her dead, they have castigated themselves for not checking immediately the noise had stopped every moment since. Not a full excuse, but you'd still feel like a shit for assuming the worst of them, just like he or she might feel, not for getting everything wrong, but for not getting everything right for the circumstances.

"Guilty until proven innocent." belongs over on Free Republic too.


There are always explanations for things, sometimes hidden or lost beyond discovery. However, there are rarely unqualified excuses for negative outcomes of one's own behaviour. This goes for the cops, the airline check in clerk, and the addict who lost it, because she was up, down or hallucinating. Unless you want to postulate a convoluted sequence of enforced addiction, unlawful detention, escape, finding her feet and seeking help, to absolve her of ALL responsibility in her addiction. Any person who holds any responsibility in this death might have an explanation, but they do not have an excuse that will let them off Scott free. Nor are mitigating circumstances the purview of the police. Not beyond any immediately obvious factors such as medialert. That is for the judge/jury to determine and factor into their final decission(s). And even if such factors are known to the police, , the safety of others (including themselves) overrides.

Thwarted addicts who lose it are always going to be trouble. And all too often kid gloves can not be afforded. Perhaps if they'd recognised her addict in distress status, they might have tazered her. You'd have something else to piss and moan about but she might well still be alive.


What of that screaming Christian fundie woman who everyone likes to laugh at on Youtube. What if it were her who'd accidentally topped herself, or goaded a cop into giving her "what for" and off to find out what the Book of Names at the gates really has to say about her. You'd all be laughing your fucking arses off and there are very few of you I'd believe if you attempted to deny it.

[dailykoff]

145. She's dead and the story is bogus.

There's your evidence.

[TheMadMonk]

146. If the story is demonstrably bogus I would dsmiss it in an instant.

What I've seen time and time again is flat unsupported assertions that the official story is bogus, and therefore that is proof positive of mis/malfeasance. Another trick straight out of the bad argument playbook favoured, by creationists, and others who would put their convictions/faith ahead of the truth.

Those I speak of above, are just as much intolerant idiots as anyone who hates based upon skin colour, direction of genuflection or affection, or any other largely irrelevant factor. It matters not that current political/social conditions give these people a stronger than normal chance of being right. Even a stopped clock, yadda yadda yadda.

[dailykoff]

154. It's beyond bogus.

First her hands are cuffed behind her back, then suddenly they're around her neck choking her to death? Don't think so.

[TheMadMonk]

155. If those cuffs were chained to a table/bench. As is now reported..

...they may well have been in front of her. And that allows other possibilities for self strangulation.

Further, given something to "work against" a person is capable of greater, and more likely to be irreversible, contortions.

Self strangulation may well be possible. It is plausible. Is it likely/probable? I have no bloody idea, but it can not be dismissed out of hand as has been done here.

Some cops are bent. However, not all cops are. And to assume any cop is, not based upon what you know, but what you believe is just as despicable as assuming the behaviour of all African Americans based upon the actions of gangbangers.

[liberalhistorian]

67. No, the ones who sound Freeperish are the ones

who seem to think it's just fine and dandy that losing control of one's emotions results in death, despite the fact that medical or mental illness may just play a crucial factor. They're those here who seem to have no problem with the fact that she was left alone in a holding cell and not checked on even when continuing to scream (what if something else were going wrong and she was attempting to signal that?). They're those here who swallow the official bullshit of choking while trying to get free of handcuffs, which is so laughable as to be beyond pathetic. THOSE are the ones who sound freeperish.

[TheMadMonk]

77. I do not at all believe that losing control should = death.

And I deeply resent you trying to imply it. (Straight out of the bad argument playbook that one.)

Did she have mental health issues. Where was her mediallert bracelet?

From what I see here, you (and a lot of others) want her death to be a result of police brutality.



I do not swallow the story of her strangling herself with the cuffs. However, I can come up with two possible scenarios in which it is possible. It is plausible, so lacking evidence one way or the other, I won't dismiss it out of hand as you obviously have.

As for what happened in the room. Perhaps she was checked up on several times and each time she hurled a face full of abuse. I don't know, but it's certainly possible. And perhaps she threw herself at that person, and rather than stepping aside, they thought "enough is enough" and decked her with tragic results. If that happened it would be very wrong and should be dealt with to the full extent of the law.

[AZBlue]

93. Yes, there were mental health issues.

She was on her way to rehab. She was probably high or coming down, so her mental health was not stable. Plus, checking yourself into rehab isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world - she was probably at her wit's end and this just put her over the edge.

[TheMadMonk]

130. then she should have been escorted by one of those...

...family members who are so concerned now.

Cops are not mind readers. (Which is a bit of a pity or the entire Bush/Cheney cabal would be six feet under by now.) They do not know what issues she might have unless she is carrying something to tell them/paramedics/first aiders that a medical/other issue aplies. Nor can they afford to assume a person acting violently is mentally ill or at the end of their tether for other reasons. Do that too often and Mr. Meth Head (or similar) might well do someone a serious injury or even kill. AND then you would be all over the cops for not doing enough to protect that "poor young mother".

All they can do is deal with what is in front of them. Which in this case was a woman demanding the airline do what she wants. AND Do it NOW!!!!. I SAID NOW YOU JACKBOOTED BASTARD. FUCK YOU, I DON'T WANT TO GET ON THE NEXT FLIGHT. I'VE GOT A TICKET FOR THIS ONE. And downhill from there.

Strangely enough A little violence might have ended this far more favourably. Say a fist or night stick to the solar plexus (with appropriate medical follow up of course). A "traditional" slap across the face likely wouldn't work because social conditioning is different. Don't get me wrong, I loath mindless or malicious violence as much as you or anyone else. However, I do believe there is a place and time for very carefully directed limited violence. Probably most appropriately in response to or to curb mindless or malicious violence. With proper oversight and review of course where appropriate/necessary. Such as in policing.

[Zhade]

119. Your own words make your subject line a lie.

NT!

[TheMadMonk]

134. Exactly how so?

Certain behaviour MAY result in death. I do not automatically assume WILL, MUST or SHOULD. Steps should have been taken to prevent tragedy happening. Perhaps they were. How did they fail?

US airport security is a nightmarish joke, (hell the whole effing country is) that does not mean everyone caught up in the wheels on the wrong side of the ideological war for survival must be willful wrongdoers in any tragedy, debacle, or other negative event that involves them.

[Guaranteed]

112. What you're saying is an obvious distortion.

Don't bullshit, and you'll get farther in your arguments.

[scarletwoman]

109. It certainly sounds like you're having no trouble trying & convicting the dead woman.

Yeah, too bad someone didn't just slap her or throw a bucket of water on her.

Un-fucking-believable!

[TheMadMonk]

135. Or forcefully sedate her. Or put her in more restrictive restraints.

Those are the officially humane solutions. Whats wrong with a sharp shock that does no injury? I would not slap a modern woman, as I said, cultural conditioning is different to the days when slaps were de rigure. Today it would likely lead to an escalation in violence.

Somebody should have done something (different) you claim, if you accede at all that she might have somehow inadvertently contributed. Pray tell fucking what? As far as I can tell every "solution" caries its own risks and drawbacks. Physical checks might keep the "tantrum" alive. Obvious cameras will really do it for a paranoid schizophrenic in other circumstances, even mirrors. Sedation and drug reaction. Talking's not getting through. Full restraint. Perhaps that is best. You lot will still get something to piss and moan about, and the out of control person shouldn't die, unless of course they pop an aneurysm.

[scarletwoman]

148. You're missing my point. What I'm saying is, you appear to be quite willing to accept the account

of the incident that the authorities have given on face value, and have proceeded to make your judgements from there. Your post complained that people were unfairly judging the police. I'm pointing out that you yourself are making a judgement based on incomplete information.

You appear to be willing to assume that the initial accounts of the woman's behavior are entirely accurate. I'm not willing to make such an assumption.

sw

[TheMadMonk]

149. Bull effing shit. As I have REPEATEDLY stated.

I do not accept the story unconditionally. But nor do I DISMISS IS out of hand, with no actual evidence, as the people I am arguing with have done. I am simply including it as one of several possibilities that have not yet been disproved. Possibilities, amongst which I have included police, mis/malfeasance scenarios. And I'm getting narky at folk a) putting lies in my mouth and b) acting exactly like rabid nutjob creationists, or other idiots we rail against here, when asked to evidence their assertions. You all know what you know and that's good enough. Actual facts or waiting for them to be determined, is not necessary.

I assign no weights (probabilities) to the various possible explanations. There is not enough information to do so with any confidence whatsoever. I simply believe, that ALL possible scenarios be considered, until evidence arises to rule out them out one by one, or demonstrates one option as being the correct one.

So far, a ruddy disheartening number of people are throwing ex-cathedra proclamations, that the fault here lies with the police/arresting authorities, in my face. It may well. But show me some bloody evidence that would stand in a court of law, or at least convince a judge/prosecutor's office that further investigation is necessary.

Several people her, right out of their own mouths have tried, convicted and condemned the cops involved in this incident, and very strongly implied (at the least) that their reason for such condemnation is their occupation and occupation alone.

Have any of you for even a moment considered the possibility that people might chose to actually work in airport security, or like job, because they actually understand that it takes decent people to mete out decent treatment? And that means decent people making a sacrifice to work in indecent jobs. How the fuck do you think such a person might be feeling right now? Not just from second guessing themselves over what they might have done differently,

"Black and White.", "For or against.", "With us of with the enemy." Those are I thought Georgie's lines. I certainly seem to recall more than one or two people here jumping up and down lambasting George for his simple minded rhetoric. Why can't I respond to idiots who seem determined to be Dupetards who insist that cop = jackbooted fascist pig and fuck evidence or lack thereof.

So far nobody's come right out and attached any special significance to her father, but I suspect there's a lot of that happening here.

Would people's reactions be the same if the woman had been that fat, frothmouthed fundie nutjob on Youtube shrieking about her "God given right to get on that plane"? I doubt it. Most wouldn't be able to see screen or keyboard through their tears of laughter.

[scarletwoman]

156. My apologies. I didn't intend to piss you off, I was merely pointing out what I thought to be

a flaw in your argument.

[Zhade]

116. YOURS is the mentality that lets tyranny endure.

Reprehensible.

[TheMadMonk]

136. Or perhaps yours fosters it's growth.

What profits it a good person to be a cop or high official if they are to be condemned for all the wrong that happens around them.

I do not accept tyranny in any form. Any "needful" but potentially harmful or repressive action should happen under conditions of FULL AND PROPER oversight and review. And nothing ever, ever hidden utterly beyond that proper oversight and review on the part of any person.

[Dark]

126. Uh, I doubt this would have happened if she'd gone ape shit in a Wal Mart.

I guess you'd have no problem with someone acting crazy inside the Pentagon.

Cause arresting someone for acting batshit insane inside a PROVEN security risk is obviously no cause for alarm.

You really need to get out more.

[TheMadMonk]

150. No a jackbooted thug would likely have tasered her...

...and thereby, probably saved her life. (Tongue somewhat in cheek.)

I have every problem with the crazies in the Pentagon, Whitehouse, and ten thousand other offices across the country. But there's not much I can do about them from the other side of the Pacific Ocean.

I can only try to wake a few people up to the fact that they are themselves are guilty of exactly what they claim to despise in others. Personal ideology ahead of, or instead of reality. That is not to say that reality is that the cops are blameless. Though lacking any actionable evidence to the contrary, it is fair and just to presume that they are, whilst making whatever checks are necessary to prove or disprove that presumption. Just as you would FUCKING WELL DEMAND if it were you accused of any offense.


Yoy want to know what would be cause for alarm? Leaving a batshit crazy acting person to do as they bloody well will in a crowded public place. Any crowded public place, whatever its "security designation". Right up to the point where the KNOWN FACTS stop, the cops (and airline representatives) appear to have behaved responsibly. They did it what they could to meet her needs as an airline customer. They attempted to reason with her. They restrained her without unnecessary or excessive violence. They finally removed her completely away from the public when nothing else worked. And the moment the door closed, evil incarnate must have reigned unchecked behind it, because someone (or Someones daughter) died.

Cops can only act on what is happening right in front of them, or what prior knowledge that might be given to them. And most of the time they have to act immediately to preserve public safety and do it without being in possession of all of the facts.

You demand the Wisdom of Solomon; the compassion of Mother Teresa; the patience of Job and the tact of an Arab, Israeli contract negotiator in cops. Anything less than that proves that they are the enemy's man. I'd say something about the horse you rode in on, but then I'd have to contemplate the phrase that usually precedes, and I just ate.

Oh and add the omnipotence of God to the above list of qualities, that prejudged enemies of the people must posses to have that prejudgment lifted. And that only provisionally.

[terisan]

16. Is your post satirical? nt

[TheMadMonk]

20. No. I hope #15 is. nt

[liberalhistorian]

22. I've seen plenty of people throw tantrums in airports

and frankly nowadays, I can't blame them. Every single thing you say and do is monitored closely, with misinterpretation common, in addition to never-ending flight delays, endless and senseless and nonsense red tape, fuck-ups, crowding, etc., etc., etc., etc. I didn't realize that doing so meant you deserved to be handcuffed and left alone, and then tough shit if something happens and you die. That is such unmitigated bullshit that I simply cannot believe I am reading it from even one person on DU, let alone many more.

My guess, upon reading the details available so far, is that she was either suffering from a medical condition that was out-of-whack (diabetes would be my first guess, since people going into diabetic shock or suffering a sudden drop in blood sugar will act exactly like that), or a mental condition for which the medicines were low or not working right, or that was even undiagnosed. The actions are classic symptoms of either of them. Being bipolar myself, I know there are plenty of times when that is more than possible and I am more than aware of the continued stigma and criminalization of a lot of mental illness, along with the complete apathy of authority figures to even try to learn more or do anything about it.

But we've criminalized such conditions to the point where shit like that happens and people shrug their shoulders and say tough shit, she deserved it. I remember a case back in my hometown, where a man who was known to be schizophrenic went out of control and was arrested. They put him face-down on a gurney, and he couldn't breathe. He kept trying to tell them he couldn't breathe, and the officers said that he apparently had enough breath to tell them that, and pushed him back down. They then ignored him and he fucking suffocated. The department then brushed it off as ho-hum, just another crazy bum. My psychiatrist at the time absolutely flipped at that, and said that criminalization of mental illness, and complete ignorance and apathy, was rampant in authority and in social institutions in general and he was "goddamn sick and tired of it", in his words.

And how in the FUCK could she have "choked herself" with the handcuffs. That just ain't possible, not the way they're claiming. And why wasn't she monitored if she continued screaming? Why aren't people in holding cells monitored, PERIOD? I don't believe a word of their version of her death. I don't trust airport authorities and security any farther than I can throw them.

[terisan]

24. Exactly right ! The lack of compassion is frightening to me. Americans are too damned scared. nt

[loudsue]

55. Why do people in HOLDING CELLS need to be handcuffed, to begin with?

And, ya know, it seems to be that mental illness is actually RUNNING this country, and it's NOT being criminalized. The people who are REACTING to it are being criminalized. The sociopaths, psycopaths, and authoritarian crazies are in charge. The whole country has gone fucking bananas. (No offense to bananas. )

[liberalhistorian]

65. Excuse me, but

sociopaths/psychopaths (same thing, actually), and authoritarian crazies are NOT mentally ill. They are considered pathologies. Those of us with genuine medical conditions (bipolar, schizophrenia, depression, etc.) would appreciate a little consideration and not being lumped in with the pathological. And you better damn well believe that mental illness is often criminalized in this country; I don't see it getting better, either, I see it getting even worse.

[LostinVA]

105. Exactly -- I wish more people knew this

[TheMadMonk]

153. Because if they release them in the state this woman was in...

...she could injure someone, or more easily injure herself.

There are reasons for and against constant physical monitoring. And reasons for and against remote surveillance. I believe, the standard compromise is a panic/call button for the detainee to use if they need assistance, and periodic visual/physical checks.

There is no evidence one way or another whether this was carried and yet I have seen assumptions that she was left alone "to die", but not, of course, by doing what she is reported to have done. I have also seen multiple implications that someone "did for her" either accidentally or by design. Both blind and valueless assumptions of mis/malfeasance on the arresting authority's part.

Yes there is a pattern of such behaviour within policing circles. And it is a symptom of something very dark and very very wrong.

BUT IT IS NOT something which is automatically inherent in all policing activities. Most cops do their job and retire (one way or another) when the time comes. A few are kinked, guilty only of taking shortcuts to the truth, A few are bent, owned in one way or another by something inimical to that which is good. And a very few are twisted beyond redemption and/or compassion.

WHAT IT IS A SYMPTOM OF is the "DARK" which is in very nearly every single one of us. The "Dark" which lets, seduces, demands us to give reign to our negative side. To take the easy path and assign guilt by association. To assume the worst of people we don't identify with. To hate, hate, hate.

There is good reason to hate and despise the act and NOT the person. Despise the person and you risk projecting that despite onto others whether or not they merit it. Despise the act and you are far more likely to rightfully condemn ONLY the person who commits it.


And that concludes responding to anything resembling sense in your post. The remainder, except for its polysyllaby, would not be at all out of place on Free Republic.

[Megahurtz]

58. She Could NOT Have Choked Herself

with the handcuffs. This story reeks.

[liberalhistorian]

63. That's exactly what I'm saying.

It does, indeed, reek, and I don't believe what they're saying and I don't believe their version. Having been a paralegal for the past thirteen years and being in the legal system up close and personal, and dealings with authoritarian and law enforcement representatives, kinda tends to make me more than a bit cynical where these things are concerned. They're covering their own asses is what they're doing. I think it's bullshit and I hope to hell it comes out instead of being swept under the rug. I hope the family insists on a thorough, TRUTHFUL investigation and not just a simple rehash of what those involved said.

[Desertrose]

69. Yeah, pretty hard to believe.

Sounds like a coverup to me.

[TheMadMonk]

137. Yes diabetics often do actr like that. But they almost always wear medialert...

...bracelets. And do crash fairly quickly, they don't go on and on.

Beyond checking for the obvious and quickly ascertained, it's not the cops job to find the mitigating circumstances for any given "wrongful" behaviour, or to make complex medical diagnoses and the act accordingly. The cops job is to Keep the Peace. NOT by any means possible, but whatever means are most likely to have a successful outcome.

We do not know what the supervision regime was, except that it obviously was not constant. So we can only speculate, not assume anything.

Community based care put at least semi-excusable "unacceptable" behaviour onto the streets and elsewhere. I am told she was an addict on her way to rehab, but not what the addiction was, or what her pharmacological condition was at the time of her death.

Not easily. But snagging tight necked clothing, could plausibly do it. And the contortionist maneuver is possible, though not to many. And getting stuck half way is physically possible for someone of sufficient flexibility and looseness of ligament.


Limited resources, training, time, other considerations. There are many many reasons why certain typed of behaviour have to be met with firm dispatch, perhaps to the detriment on the misbehaving party. Such should be avoided if at all possible, but not if it causes unacceptable risk to the innocent. The mentally ill and drug addicted are (to a great extent at least) treated like criminals, because there is rarely an easy test to distinguish between the two and overt criminal behaviour, nor to predict an irrational person's future behaviour with any certitude. Inadequate or botched intervention all to easily leads to a less than ideal result. Limited overkill at least has the virtue of preserving lives, leaving it up to other people rather than God to sort them out.

[trashcanistanista]

158. It may not have been the cop's job to make a

medical assessment but he should have taken her to a hospital for a clearance either med or psych before taking her to jail. That is customary practice in my state. The few hours in the hospital could have saved her life. Hospitals, big ones can secure a patient for evaluation with a cop on guard. It happens all the time.

[Richard Steele]

41. Well in this case, it got her killed.

[bigmonkey]

99. Maybe you don't realize you are promoting the police state.

The way you are doing it is by implying "all this is natural" or "human". It's not natural, or normal. People should not die of neglect in the custody of security. This is the same subtext that the right wing gives about racism, violence, greed, etc. Your contortions in supporting the innocence of security in the abstract are quite unnatural.

[TheMadMonk]

138. I make no claims for the rightness or wrongness of the level of securty.

I merely pointed out that in such a zone, certain behaviour, whatever the cause is going to be met at least somewhat ungently.

Nor does the naturalness or humanity of the rules. Or lack thereof.

We do not know what neglect there was. Or even if there was any, so we can't assume its existence.

I support society and its security. Why am I (in the abstract) expected to suffer for what another does. Should *I* not have means of redress. Should society's watchdogs not protect me from that other person's violent invasion of my personal spaced, whatever their reason, I am not responsible for their condition.

Why shouldn't I be able to step back and look at the whole picture? I do not know the woman. I have no special attachment. I can be dispassionate.

Unrestrained violence in any public area (particularly a crowded one) risks the safety of innocent parties. It can not be allowed to proceed unchecked.

I have still not been presented with (or seen) any appreciable evidence that that there was wrongful, reckless or malicious behaviour on the part of airport security. All see is supposition that is being presented by far to many people as fact. I allow the possibility has not been disproved, but I also entertain the possibility that the official line may be substantially factual. Or as is most likely the truth lies somewhere in between.

[lame54]

139. she was on her way to alcohol re-hab

this was the reaction of a woman drying out

not only was she handcuffed but the cuffs were chained to the bench

a family member is going to be present at the autopsy because the whole "strangled herself with her cuffs" story is very suspect

http://www.comcast.net/news/national/index.jsp?cat=DOMESTIC&fn=/2007/10/02/777697.html&cvqh=itn_airportwoman

[terisan]

25. Criminalization of the expression of human emotion. nt

[Kelly Rupert]

27. "I do whatever I feel like whenever I'm upset"

is not an acceptable rule of conduct in any society.

[terisan]

37. You have no idea of what this woman's conduct was-or whether it warranted arrest

and being left unobserved in isolation.

You do not know whether her behavior was voluntary or involuntary.

Actually your lead sentence sounds like it might have been George w. Bush's rationale for invading Iraq after US citizens were killed by Saudi Arabians.

[Kelly Rupert]

42. No, and I'm not purporting to. I'm defending the notion of disorderly conduct being illegal,

and nothing more.

[Dark]

127. She was acting crazy in an airport. That merits some sort of police involvement.

Sorry, but if someone is acting nuts in an airport, and didn't calm down when approached by police, they need to be removed.

Voluntary or involuntary, such behavior in an airport is unacceptable.

As for her death, that needs to be investigated, certainly.

But to actually believe that screaming and running through an airport is OK behavior is asinine.

[Zhade]

120. But apparently, to you, death for getting upset is acceptable.

NT!

[Kelly Rupert]

141. Defending the arrest, not the death. n/t

[eridani]

125. You undoubtedly prefer--

--whenever I do anything weird because of a medical condition, this should be an automatic death sentence.

[Kelly Rupert]

142. Defending the arrest, not the death n/t

[terisan]

38. Acting hysterically and killing a million people looking for lost weapons of Mass Destruction is OK

[Kelly Rupert]

43. I don't believe anyone here would defend the Iraq war. n/t

[Rage for Order]

110. Yes, that's obviously what Noodleboy said in his post

I saw it in there somewhere... :eyes:

[Cha]

113. They sure as hell are...and right

before our very eyes.

[shance]

28. I believe CNN......didn't they just recently lie us into an illegal war

Seems to me that was the case, along with other complicit networks.

Were you actually there to personally witness her screaming and her so called "hysteria"?

You know the good ole boys love to call women 'hysterical' and demean us whenever the gob's have gotten themselves into a pickle. Blame the woman. Or blame the victin. In this case, it most emphatically is a women.

If you weren't present and did not witness her being "hysterical", I personally would not believe the complicit, crime syndicate CNN, and I would not believe the potential so-called "witnesses", because we have no idea if they have been recruited by CNN to slant their story, or not.

[SoCalDem]

29. I think we will see more of this.. People are on edge every time they go to the airport

and may all be "one more thing" away from losing it :(

I do not condone what she did, but surely when they restrained her to put the cuffs on, they had her under their control..

Why not just lock her in a room somewhere (sans cuffs) and call her next of kin, or the local police to come & get her?

People are walking around with all kinds on unseeable ailments.. Maybe she had high blood pressure or a heart ailment..Maybe the stress was too much for her..

It's so sad to see what flying has become:cry:..It used to be such fun :(

[shance]

31. No, people are being abused, treated with malice and contempt at the airport

They are being intentionally provoked at times.

That is not accidental, it is intentional fear mongering and terrorizing of citizens if you will.

The War on Terror is a joke and the joke has become on us, the apathetic, obedient citizen.

It is a War OF Terror.

People need to wake up and stop being obedient as they are being sent into the gas chamber.

[shance]

34. Also Socal you are implying that what the media told you was true. That the "witnesses" weren't

plants.

How do you know that?

How do you know what is true and what is not by a media owned and operated to lie to us on a daily basis?

Read the CIA and the Media by Carl Bernstein.

We need to quit assuming the information they feed us is in any way honest or valid. They have proved to the contrary far too many times.

[liberalhistorian]

71. This is a major reason why I just do NOT like to

fly unless I absolutely have to. I've seen even normally very calm, cool people lose it in airports; this is especially bad when seemingly everything we say and do in airports is closely monitored and very easily subject to misinterpretation.

Did you ever see A&E's reality show "Airline?" There have been many times when people have been crowded into a small area, the flight's been delayed or permanently rescheduled or something else has happened and the people are told to stay put, they can't even go out of the area to get food, drink, etc. Yet, they're expected to just sit down and shut up and take it, and anyone who starts to question or get upset gets stomped on right away. There were several instances of that, and it was disgusting how totally apathetic and uncaring most of the airline and airport employees were to the passengers.

I used to love flying, but no more. I hate being treated like a potential terrorist on the one hand and a complete child that needs to sit down, shut up and do as you're told no matter what happens, on the other. No fucking thank you.

[ThomCat]

56. Regardless of how upset she was

that's not a killing offense. And even if you believe in the death penalty, that normally requires a trial first.

[fujiyama]

95. She was tossed in a holding cell and "left alone"?

Wow, I figured even prisoners should be supervised for their own safety.

Maybe she was being "disruptive". Fine, she was restrained and in cuffs. A female officer should have been present monitoring her once in custody. It's possible she needed medical attention and even disruptive and possibly abusive people in custody deserve that.

It's very possible the death was due to some sort of health condition (possibly onset by the stressful situation she was in). But why do the cops bring out some bullshit story about her choking herself? Seems ridiculous. And if she was choking, why the hell was no one watching her?

This treatment she received is unacceptable and inexcusable.

[Zhade]

115. Wow, so you think she deserved to die for that?

How do you sleep at night?

[spanone]

76. YOU people? hmmmm

[bliss_eternal]

3. I'm glad to hear her case will get proper attention.

I'm not sure that the fact that she's a Democrat means that suddenly she should be viewed in a different light... :shrug:... by those that were previously dismissive, or blamed her for her death.

She was always a human being.
No one should die handcuffed in a cell, no matter what their political affiliations.

But whatever.
If that suddenly elevates her rank to some, or makes them feel more for her...so be it. :eyes:

[KoKo]

14. Her Mother-in-Law is a Democrat....we don't know what her affiliation is...but was mother of

three young children and her death is bizarre.

[dailykoff]

5. I hope she raises holy hell

and doesn't let up until she tears the lid of the whole TSA-DHS-terrorist-police state-"security" scam leading to impeachment and convictions for the whole stinking lot of them.

But, I'm not going to count on it. Someday, however, somebody just might.

[midnight]

9. She better do it with lots of smiles, and no sudden moves.

Is someones affiliation to a political party, one of TSA DHS Police state security forms of data identifying someone? Remember when Sen. Kennedy was listed on the no fly list.

[hisownpetard]

7. There is something missing here. She was running around, yelling and screaming.

WHAT was she screaming? And how in the world does someone who is handcuffed
wind up strangling herself?

The story hasn't come out yet, whatever it is.

[MADem]

11. From what I read, she was hollering at the gate agents because

they wouldn't open the jetway and let her board. She was late for her flight and the plane was still there, but they wouldn't let her on. Don't know if they gave her seat away, as they do sometimes when they overbook, or what.



This is the story we know thus far, pretty much: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AIRPORT_DEATH?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

NEW YORK (AP) -- A traveler who may have accidentally choked herself to death while handcuffed in an airport holding cell was a "wonderful" woman and mother, according to New York City's public advocate, who is her relative.

Carol Anne Gotbaum, 45, was arrested Friday at Sky Harbor International Airport in Phoenix after she became irate when gate crews refused to let her board a flight for which she was late, officials said.

"She was a wonderful mother; she was sweet and kind and loving," said public advocate Betsy Gotbaum, the woman's stepmother-in-law. "It's obviously very, very difficult for us; we are dealing with it as best we can. My No. 1 focus is those children and my stepson."

She also pleaded with the press for privacy.

The events that led to Gotbaum's death began when she became irate over not being allowed on a US Airways flight, though she was rebooked on a later flight...Officers handcuffed her and took her to the holding room, where she kept screaming, authorities said. They checked on her when she became quiet and found her unresponsive, said Phoenix police Sgt. Andy Hill.

It appears Gotbaum may have tried to get out of her handcuffs, which ended up around her neck, Hill said. A medical examiner will determine the cause of death....

[warrior1]

17. What in the world

is wrong with this picture.

Why did she need to be handcuffed? I hope the sue the hell out of this company.

[warrior1]

18. and do

you strangle yourself if you hands are behind your back?

[shance]

35. It really is an insulting story to feed the public. Its a bogus tale with holes the size of craters

and yet, I'm so amazed how many here eat it up like cereal, even though they are lied to on a daily basis by this so called "mainstream media".

I really believe we've been so conditioned to allow others to "think" for us, even if they are laughingly lying all the way to the bank.

Some just nod their head and accept it as the truth.

Unless people start using their brains and asking questions, people deserve what they get.

The sad thing is, the dumb ones will pull everyone else down with them.

[terisan]

40. too many people have had their brains washed and rinsed by Republican Media. nt

[Zhade]

121. You can't. THAT'S A LIE. And idiots here are feeding that lie.

NT!

[MADem]

19. They said she was running back and forth at the gates, yelling about

being let on the plane. They also said she was unruly when the officers approached her. I guess the cuffing is SOP.

I wasn't there, I don't know the details. I'm sure they'll come out eventually, as this is a very unusual case, and the dead woman, while not blonde, or between the target ages of eighteen and twenty three, is white. It's got "Heartland of America Ratings Grabber" written all over it.

I heard the Phoenix cop spokesperson on the tv this morning, it sounded like a SOP action when someone goes off the page in the airport. They aren't allowed, for some reason, to video surveille the people they hold, so they check them every fifteen minutes. Pity they hadn't checked her sooner.

They'd have to sue either the cops at the airport, or the airport authority, I'd guess.

[fooj]

53. I read that she said she was sick and needed help.

[Kelly Rupert]

57. Link? nt

[terisan]

59. CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/01/phoenix.airport.death/index.html

Airport workers who witnessed the arrest told the Daily News that Gotbaum was screaming, "I'm not a terrorist! I'm a sick mom! I need help!"

[fooj]

100. Thanks for the link.

Something stinks.

[TheMadMonk]

157. So terrorists immediately identify themselves as such?

Pity nobody listened on 9-11.

If someone is acting in a manner potentially injurious to innocent parties, then WHAT they are screaming will have to wait until the immediate threat, the screamer, is dealt with/contained.

[Rage for Order]

111. That entire story's a lie

See post 34 above if you don't believe me.

"Are you implying that what the media told you was true. That the "witnesses" weren't plants?

How do you know that?

How do you know what is true and what is not by a media owned and operated to lie to us on a daily basis?

Read the CIA and the Media by Carl Bernstein.

We need to quit assuming the information they feed us is in any way honest or valid. They have proved to the contrary far too many times."


Apparently the only news stories that are true are the ones that match up to our preconceived notions about the world. The rest are all CIA propaganda. :)

[shance]

30. Cui bono from making Carole look hysterical. Some less than ethical men and women will use

the hysterical badge to invalidate someone and to rationalize vicious, cruel behavior.

Women can and have used the "hysteric" excuse against other women as well.

Carol is no different.

She is now a victim as well, after her death.

She can no longer defend herself can she?

If you've seen the picture, she looks like a real bear, doesn't she?



I bet those security guards with their tasers, guns, and assorted weaponry to use against defenseless individuals sure were scared of the "hysterical" Carole.

[hisownpetard]

114. Yes. In fact, the word "hysterical" has a sexist origin, coming from the word

hysterectomy.

[TheMadMonk]

159. Both words come from the same ROOT.

And the word applies to men AND women today. Yes there can be sexist connotations, but they should not be automatically assumed.

There is no arguing that her behaviour was irrational.

No one until YOU has even attempted to bring the sex of the deceased into the argument.


Just checked your screen name. How right you are.

[fed-up]

21. why was she late-detained because she was on a no fly list? what was she yelling? nt

[Kelly Rupert]

26. She missed her flight

and was demanding they re-open the jetway for her, against all airline procedures. They rebooked her on the next flight free of charge, but she started running around screaming. Cuffs are SOP.

[Marrah_G]

32. Perhaps people should wait for the autposy reports before jumping to conclusions

No one here knows what happened. It's very easily to randomly toss out theories that you are "sure" of, but wouldn't it be wiser for everyone to settle down and wait until there are more facts available?

[shance]

33. Youre saying those cannot be altered and/or forged? If JFK's autopsy can be invalidated

so can Carol's.

[Kelly Rupert]

44. So what you're saying is,

that you've made up your mind, and have already prepared excuses for when the facts do not match your opinion.

[BadgerLaw2010]

151. In what parallel tinfoil universe is JFK's autopsy invalid?

It is not possible to fake the photographs involved with anything approaching the technology of the time. It might not be possible to do today; at the least, it would be extremely difficult.

[TX-RAT]

48. Don't be getting all rational on us.

Don't you know knee jerk reactions are SOP here?

[loudsue]

98. So...you don't like it here?

buh-bye :hi:

[TX-RAT]

133. Yea right! LOL

[Zhade]

122. I know one thing: it is IMPOSSIBLE to strangle yourself with hands cuffed behind the back.

Imfuckingpossible.

[gollygee]

36. People need to read The End of America by Naomi Wolf

she says that when fascist regimes start to take hold, this kind of thing will happen only to people who are "others" - people we very much see as different from us. But then our leaders will try to use techniques (like arbitrarily detaining and releasing people, having people "accidentally" die without serious investigation, arresting people and not giving them access to their chosen attorney, etc.) previously only used on "others" on people who look more and more like you and me. If people don't get too upset, then our leaders know that level of violence and authoritarianism is OK, and they move on to the next level. Once someone we personally know and identify with is the victim of something like this and nothing happens, we will become very careful. When everyone is careful about what they say and do, that's it - it's over.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. That's my next read

sadly I have seen this in interviews of survivors of police states

So this does not surprise me, nor the seeming acceptance of it

[Jed Dilligan]

73. Great post. nt

[Stephanie]

39. Betsy Gautbaum is well-respected in NY Democratic circles.

I feel very badly for her.

[DFW]

47. This seems like rather an extreme way to put Democrats on the no-fly list.

What would the Republicans say if suddenly they are the ones
who start dying in mysterious plane crashes or airport arrests?

[Pawel K]

49. Please don't tell me anyone is suggesting this was murder for political reasons

please, for gods sake tell me nobody here is drawing that conclusion. If they are I think I'm done with this place until shit like this settles down, I can't take it anymore.

[TheWraith]

61. Of course that's exactly what they're saying. This is DU, after all.

Where no matter how many times some random unreliable article cries "War with Iran imminent," everyone is expected to believe it; where a bunch of people think that Bush and Cheney personally orchestrated 9/11; and where the worst kind of paranoid response is mutually reenforced and rewarded.

I'm not saying all DUers are like that, but we certainly have more than our share of nutcakes.

[Dark]

128. You forgot about the draft. And the camps. And the economic collapse. And the nuke attack on Iran.

And the Bush seizing power (god knows, if he really wanted this, he'd have done it after 9/11. Nobody would have opposed him.)

Don't forget the conspiracy theorists' claim that "the media/jews/democrats/NYfirefighters/Polar Ice Caps are in on the conspiracy to cover up 9/11" meme.

BTW, I've been around here for a while, and I can't tell you the number of times people predicted the 'DRAFT' was coming.

Strange enough, it hasn't.

None of those have.

But of course, there's always an explanation. Another group is added to being in on the cover up.

Anywho, were not all nuts. Just a vocal few.

[liberalhistorian]

92. I completely agree; I don't think it has anything to do with

that and that such a thought is truly crazy. If the shoe was on the other foot and repubs were to say the same thing, people here would go nuts, so I don't understand people jumping to the same thing.

But I also don't think things happened the way the airport has said it happened, and I think there needs to be a thorough investigation by OUTSIDE entities. I think she was sick (mentally or physically), as there are plenty of such conditions that can cause such actions, that the authorities overreacted, and that they're telling the fish story about choking herself with the handcuffs in order to cover their asses.

[aikoaiko]

51. Its an odd way to die.

I see the conspiracy theorists are already at work.

[DFW]

52. Just a bit of hyperbole, don't panic

Obviously the probability of an ulterior motive at Phoenix airport
is at best remote. Convenient to get our jollies speculating, but that's it.

As for Paul Wellstone's plane crash, however, I'm less convinced that it was
due to bad weather/plane maintenance alone.

[Catchawave]

60. Oh her way to rehab....article here:

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--airportdeath1001oct01,0,7848501.story

[Catchawave]

62. and here:

http://www.kcci.com/news/14245016/detail.html

appears she ran out past the security check point then ran back through, when she was apprehended?

She should have never been left alone as she seemed to be having a major rage thing going on.

Also, if she was on her way to rehab, why was she alone? Is this normal?

[MilesColtrane]

72. Her behavior sounds cocaine or meth induced. n/t

[Catchawave]

81. Last hurrah before rehab ?

She was definitely out of control.

[Joanne98]

64. The police state moves forward!!!!!

[woo me with science]

66. OBVIOUSLY A POLITICAL MURDER!!!!!!!!

FIRST THEY COME FOR THE DAUGHTERS-IN-LAW!!!!!!!!!

[Desertrose]

68. Holy shit! When I fly outta Sky Harbor in the next few weeks

I am gonna REMAIN CALM - no matter what.

There is NO EXCUSE for such treatment. NONE AT ALL.

A mother of 4 kids, died because she misses her flight and they f'ing HANDCUFF HER???

Welcome to the Police State of Amerikka.:scared:

DR

[Kelly Rupert]

144. That would be best.

If you do not wish to be arrested, do not run around screaming and yelling because you missed your flight. That will get you a time-out.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

74. Alert: Wrongful death suit against the airline coming, and hopefully an investigation thru discover

Wrongful death, negligence for not checking up on her in the cell, negligent homicide, failure to hold to the standard of care for the public on a common carrier, etc.....this will be one helluva trial!!!

Five plaintiffs or more (the kids and mom and possibly hubby and decedent's father).

[Jed Dilligan]

75. No conspiracy here--just a "warning shot" from the police state.

They're saying, "Now that you've given us all these new powers, we will no longer hesitate to kill middle-class white people. Before, we reserved these powers for use only on black and brown people. Thank you for your support."

[pitohui]

78. dollars to donuts, it's coming, they're going to say she was a drunk

reports are coming out that she was screaming "i'm not a terrorist, i'm a sick mom"

her atty says she was on her way to rehab

i have a sick feeling that drunks are frequently badly treated in phoenix, and they stepped on the wrong face, and now they're going to smear the crap out of her to get away from this mess

someone in the discussion already mentioned their lack of sympathy for "screaming drunks," i'm afraid this will be used to deflect attention from what seems to me to be some obvious maltreatment of the woman

i don't care how drunk she was, she shouldn't have been killed for it

phoenix has a poor reputation for how it treats prisoners, i have heard of homeless being basically swept off the street and into a tent under 125 degree summer weather so that they will die of heat exhaustion, which to me is tantamount to murder (i hope this is just a rumor and is not true but it's what they say)

[Jed Dilligan]

82. The Phoenix thing is believable to me,

remember this summer in Fresno when they made the homeless move out of the shade?

They have to place her in some demonized group, so her alcoholism is convenient.

One possible scenario here: she was distraught because being stranded in an airport (with multiple bars) would jeopardize her recovery--on which her continuing to have her children might depend. Too bad, instead of someone to talk her down and help her, she met a bunch of murdering thugs.

[terisan]

85. Just what personal do airports and airlines have for handling non-terrorist disruptions ?

I know there have been some horrendous events on flights (I remember a case of a guy who defecated in the food cart).

I think that given the numbers of people at airports general public--including people on edge, people in crisis, people with emotional, mental physical illnesses) , there should be crisis or medic teams available.

The Bush years have been the years of the soft bigotry of lowered expectations (Reagan and Bush 1 having started the trend).

All the the money creating the billionaire bubble is coming from us (we need to prick that bubble or send the pricks to China where they have Capital Punishment (no pun intended) for economic crimes. We are now too poor to afford some basic human services that makes life pleasant and loving.

The people talking tough against the disruptive passenger seem to have lowered their expectation of what life should be in America in terms of services to the public.

A few years ago a young man on his way to work on a bus in Atlanta suddenly starting pulling the blouse off a teenage girl on her way to school. The passengers subdued him and helped the girl who felt humiliated and frightened. he was arrested--it turned out that he was an ordinary guy who had take a cold medication, had an adverse reaction that caused his bizarre behavior which horrified him.

In some circumstances today would he be shot down like a dog, ...accused and convicted of of being a sex pervert........arrested in the Phoenix Airport, cuffed, isolated, and found dead ?

It is time to raise our expectations.

[Pavulon]

97. I have flown piss drunk out of phoenix

since I did not throw a fit I had no problem. Was not slurring, stumbling, so america west gave me no grief.

[pitohui]

101. this wasn't america west , it was us airways but...

i'm sure you know that airline employees on any airline are not supposed to allow drunks to fly, there is nothing wrong w. a tiny buzz, but if you are actually "piss drunk" then they can and sometimes do detain you

and in the great if and when that they do, do you expect to be shackled and killed while helpless or do you expect to be treated in a respectful manner, even if you must be detained until you sober up?

irate pax run to their gate and scream in frustration every day without being arrested, people get drunk on those "for only $2 more make it a double" drinks at the airport without being arrested, but assuming the woman was so drunk & disorderly that she needed to be arrested, then there needs to be a way to detain a 105 pound woman in poor health without killing her

it's good this woman has a family with some power to look into this because, honestly, i've heard crap about phoenix law enforcement that is definitely on the fishy side

google their sheriff, cruelty is almost a specialty if not a fetish and sometimes a fish rots from the head down

lots of people are irate or drunk at the airport, we need a way to handle them properly though, convince me that phoenix handled this properly, honestly right now i don't think you can, a tiny woman is handcuffed and shackled yet somehow strangles herself to death? i don't believe it, i will need to see some hard proof, the odds seem high that they accidentally killed her and now they're covering ass

and i don't care how "piss drunk" she was or how "piss drunk" you are, people shouldn't be dying for stupidity

[GoneOffShore]

79. Latest update

Lawyer: Woman Who Died At Airport On Way To Rehab
http://www.wnbc.com/news/14245040/detail.html?dl=mainclick

"I can't confirm that she had alcoholism, but that certainly is my assumption," said Michael Manning, who was hired by Carol Anne Gotbaum's family over the weekend to monitor the police investigation.

[stimbox]

83. Impossible for her to strangle herself.

"She was handcuffed behind her back and shackled to a table. It doesn't make sense that she could have physically managed to strangle herself."

WTF????
Something does not compute.

:wtf:

[The Backlash Cometh]

80. Let the lawsuit begin.

[Marrah_G]

84. Latest news is she was on her way to Rehab when she flipped out

[Kelly Rupert]

140. That would rather justify police involvement, I think.

Crazy (drug/withdrawal)-induced screaming and running around is still screaming and running around.

[Hydra]

86. And there are actually people rushing to defend the people who did this

*shakes head* There are more monsters in this country than I thought.

[gollygee]

88. We're getting used to it

We are getting used to not having rights. We're getting used to fascism.

[Hydra]

89. Not me

but as you say, a surprising number are. I never would have guessed how many cruel and uncaring people lived here...but I'm learning.

[gollygee]

90. It's scary

I'm not used to it either, but certainly we as a country are getting very used to things that wouldn't have been accepted even 10 years ago.

[Hydra]

94. Things last year that would have been unthinkable happened

Military commisions act, Padilla show trial, 3 ounce rule on flights, thought police, people hanging themselves with their handcuffs...

It's fitting that Bush rules over a kingdom of insanity.

[ecstatic]

87. D'OH! Guess they can't sweep this one under the rug like they usually do... nt

[RamboLiberal]

91. She was also shackled to a bench

Gotbaum, who weighed only 105 pounds, was on her way to an alcohol rehabilitation facility when she missed her plane, Betsy Gotbaum said Monday. She said that it appeared that her step-daughter-in-law had been "manhandled" by the Phoenix police.

Manning said Gotbaum may have been in a "delicate" mental state Friday. He told The Associated Press the family had not decided whether it should file a lawsuit against Phoenix police.

"We have strong concerns about how this 110-pound woman may have ended up strangling herself, given that she was cuffed behind her back and shackled to a bench," he said.

Police policy requires officers to check on suspects in holding cells every 15 minutes, Hill said. Officers checked on Gotbaum after five or 10 minutes, he said.

Garrett said it would be ideal to have cameras in the cells that could be constantly monitored, but did not fault police for checking on Gotbaum after a few minutes.

http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3676043

Making a little more sense of how she may have gotten tangled up - still this does need an investigation.

[AZBlue]

96. EVERYONE: please get your facts straight before jumping to conclusions

She was on her way to rehab for alcoholism. She may have been drunk or coming down, so her behavior was probably a bit out of the norm. Her nerves had to be frayed - checking into rehab isn't easy. And, she was probably anxious and on edge, perhaps even afraid that a delay might allow her to change her mind.

She may have been a bit out of control and that's why she was treated the way she was. However, I don't think the airport handled it properly and I'm glad to see that the family has halted the autopsy until another expert can be on hand to witness it.

No matter what happened, I feel very sorry for her and her family.

You can read more here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21054442/

[Hydra]

102. I have these facts straight:

1. A woman is dead
2. She died in the custody of authorities that report to our Government
3. the explanation for her death is highly unlikely, to put it politely

These are facts are quite disturbing, and are very hard to spin in a satisfactory fashion.

[MilesColtrane]

104. I agree that the initial explanation is unlikely.

What's more likely is that the airport cops couldn't recognize a person undergoing a drug induced psychotic episode, and that they were never trained to deal with that.

Whoever saw that her hands were at her throat assumed she choked herself, rather than think that she might have had them there as a result of a cardiac arrest or respiratory failure.

[Hydra]

107. The whole things smells fishy

Everything from the hysterical episode to her strangling herself with her handcuffs. It all sounds like a bad novel with a badly done cover-up in it.

I'm more concerned with the fact that people are defending whoever was involved with this. Let them be tased and ignored when it happens.

[renie408]

106. Well..about that second one...

How directly do we think the local police in Arizona report to our government?

I get that it would be DAMN hard to strangle yourself with your own handcuffs. We actually made little fake handcuffs yesterday and everybody in my family tried to get them up around their necks from behind their backs in a way that would strangle them and not even my still limber kids could do it. I am not sure I am willing to jump into full fledged Oliver Stone mode yet, though. I think it is most likely that the local cops accidently strangled the woman with a chokehold, panicked and made up this story. If that is the case, they need to be found out and punished. I am glad this is going to be pursued independently.

[Hydra]

108. Very directly, actually

They are the local enforcement arm of the DoJ, for all intents and purposes. Anyone who can enforce federal laws is an empowered representative of the 3rd branch of Gov't. Dinking around with such forms of empowerment(warrants and such, or granted authority in the case of police) is highly frowned upon.

[Dark]

129. So you would be OK with letting someone who is running around an airport screaming

fly with you?

Good to see Darwin is still around, despite that damn museum in Kentucky.

[Hydra]

131. Actually, I would.

Less dangerous than those damn US marshals with orders to shot to kill on random flights. Guns and high altitude aircraft don't mix.

Still, if you're that afraid of dying, stay home. You're probably in more danger of getting in a car accident and dying on the way, statically.

Oh, and congrats on ignoring all 3 facts. My faith in humanity diminishes by the day.

[gollygee]

143. There's a bit of wiggle room between letting her fly on the airplane

and whatever happened to her.

[Zhade]

123. FACT: you CANNOT POSSIBLY strangle yourself with your hands secured behind your back.

It is impossible to do so.

[BadgerLaw2010]

152. Not if she botched an attempt to bring her handcuffs over her head.

If you can't dislocate your left shoulder after you get that far, your arms can suffocate you by pressing your head down into your chest.

If that's what she tried to do, it could have indeed killed her.

[lateo]

103. If I was a betting person

I would say she got tased to death. However, I bet the autopsy will show she killed herself.

[Zhade]

124. Not by strangling - that was literally impossible.

NT!

[mitchtv]

147. My Guess ( and only a guess)

someone sat on her to calm her down