I cheered when Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed.

[Fed_Up_Grammy]

I was 13 years old and full of hate (and fear).

I've been watching the PBS war series for the past week and it has been very emotional for me.

I knew 3 young men on active duty in the war,my father had died just before the war started and life had been tough,and the news of the Holocaust had reached us. We wanted it over.

Fast forward to 1990 and one of my sons married a girl who's grandparents had emigrated from the Hiroshima Prefecture to Honolulu where they were living on December 7,1941.

The circle of life!

Fuck hate and fuck war.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

1. Welcome to DU!

MKJ

[Faygo Kid]

2. War is hell. Thanks for the thoughtful post, Grammy.

You've seen a lot, and at 13, I was jumping up and down for the Beatles. Your 13 was tougher.

[ThatsMyBarack]

72. When I was 13, I was nuts for Culture Club!

Welcome to DU, Grammy! :patriot:

[MadMaddie]

3. Life is a circle of life...this is true

Welcome to DU Fed_Up_Grammy!:hi:

[Frances]

4. A relative married a Japanese woman

back in the 60s when there was still a lot of hard feelings against the Japanese. A lot of people in our area had fought in the Pacific and had terrible memories of that time.

Anyone, my relative's mother was determined to stay close to her only son. She told all of us kinfolk that the bride's name was Sour (anyway it was pronounced that way), but that she should have been named Sweet. Everyone else followed the mother's example and accepted the new bride.

[Botany]

5. Thanx for posting

A post so personal & so full of real knowledge ...

I had a neighbor ( he died in the 1980s) he was POW in Japan in WW II
and was beat daily but the day the bomb was dropped a guard who
had beat him tried to be his friend. No doubt the bomb saved him.

If we had to invade Japan the dead would have been in the
tens of millions.

[Fridays Child]

6. I'll take your F-bombs over those A-bombs, any day!

Welcome! :hi:

[hlthe2b]

7. A lifetime of important lessons, it sounds like...

Thanks for sharing... I hope our younger members will take your account to heart.

[fudge stripe cookays]

8. I feel guilt because of the bomb.

Not only because it was dropped, but because one of my favorite uncles was on a troopship headed to Japan when it was dropped (troops readying for "The Big Invasion").

From all indications of the die-hard nature of the soldiers and the citizens and what was being drummed into them, there's a very good chance he might not have made it home. And I loved my uncle. I'm glad I got to know him. But at what a cost.

[pokerfan]

15. My uncle was also in the Pacific waiting for the invasion

I hadn't been born yet, but had he not returned, I would have missed never knowing him or my cousins to be.

As one of the vets on Burns' film said, "There are no good wars but there are necessary wars.

[Mend]

21. My uncle, too, a Marine stationed on a ship waiting for the Japanese invasion...

my grandmother signed his enlistment papers when he was 16. He didn't want to miss the war but thankfully he missed the worst of it and came home in one piece. The bombs saved him.

[pokerfan]

24. My uncle was in the navy

He survived all those battles and yet it was skin cancer that finally got him. The Navy was not exactly keen on sunscreen and he got burned over and over again. He was fair skinned and red haired.

If I had a time machine, I would go back and tell him to keep his shirt on. Then I would go kill Hitler.

[Felix Mala]

46. IF you went back in time and killed Hitler, you might find he's replaced by

someone with more competence and better organizing skills... Then you'd be screwed.

[pokerfan]

61. True. He was his own worst enemy

[dickbearton]

63. And that is the difference between then and now.

[pokerfan]

95. Yeah, but ...

there were plenty of unnecessary wars before WWII as well.

WWII was an aberration.

WWI was just yet another in a long string of European wars. Wilson kept us out of the war and then what did he do? And the armistice agreement laid the foundations for WWII so at least we didn't make that mistake twice. My grandfather fought in the infantry in WWI and never said a word about it except a handful of stories. Getting shot, burying his buddy in France and how the gas shells sounded different in flight than the HE ones.

The Civil War was necessary in my opinion. We can debate the others.

Here's an interesting question: Was the Revolutionary War necessary?

[Alameda]

9. WWII memories

I was only a small child during WWII, but I remember the fear, blackouts, running for cover from low flying planes...Japanese neighbors moving....and my father in uniform. I received a present from the camps, a little crochet animal....I can't watch the PBS series, too painful. My father and uncle were both Marines in the Pacific...they were in Battle of Iwo Jima, first occupation forces...my father never talks about it. My uncle died of cancer. It's something never discussed.

I tried watching a little and had to turn it off...too emotional.

[Botany]

14. All the best to you ....

[bdamomma]

16. I am watching it, although I was not even born when WWII happened

but there are alot of similarities regarding how the Generals were so wrong about the force of Germans in the Battle of Bulge. My dad was stationed in New Guinea but I don't think I ever heard my Dad talk that much about it. I remember seeing his pictures of the natives though, and lots of palm trees.

[Breeze54]

10. So was I at 13, but that was due to the Vietnam War.

You're right. Full circle. I hated that war and I hated hearing about all the killing and
the horror and watching my brothers and friends be dragged into it. War affects kids the
same in every war, except maybe the currant Iraq illegal war. :(

Welcome to DU! :hi:

:hug:

[Didereaux]

11. sometimes the frustration wins out for us and they don't understand...

I am as old as 'Baby Boomers' can be, so lack the actual war years, I have never felt cheated. I grew up with a father, still young when I was born, who landed on Utah Beach, fought on the western front of the Bulge, crossed the Rhine on the first wave. Whose company took Berchtesgarten, lived on red deer for a month because they ran out of food they were so far ahead of supplies, and finally stopped in Austria across the river from the Russians. He had medals, and though the men never spoke in front of the children of the bad parts, we overheard a lot. But my experience wasn't unique in any way, almost every kid had fathers,aand uncles with similar experiences. They were good men and women who came through the horrors. My uncle was one of the few who survived the 'Death March' on Bataan...and on and on and on.

My frustration today is with Americans of my generation who have forgotten the way these men and women handled themselves afterwards, few complained, and few whined about anything, and when finally such groups as the American Legion and VFW started bulging (my father refused to join the VFW because they did not allow someone to join who had not fought overseas. He felt it was luck of the draw and every man did what was assigned), but I digress to twenty years later when it was my turn, by then the bad apples, the wannabes and such from WWII were beating the drums for Viet Nam, but not many were the men and women who had faced the horrors, they were the clearks and orderlies and janitors and goldbricks, it was they who pounded those drums the hardest.

Today the draft dodgers and goldbricks of my war are beating the drums once again and with as much vigor as their predecessors. Yet, how do we get the young that are influenced by these pariahs, these maggots to understand that what they are hearing is false, that there leaders are frauds, that the pundits are puppets, and that those whom we entrust with disseminating the truth, or at least accurate information are themselves bereft of any sense of self worth, dignity, honor. How do we not become frustrated and short-tempered - we cannot bring our fathers back from the grave, they wouldn't believe them either at any rate.

Are the memories our fathers left us, are our own memories to be tossed aside, are we to step aside and allow the Limbaughs, the Cheneys, the Bushes and all the other draft-dodging America hating pariahs win? Tell me, tell us the old now, what can we do to get through to the younger ones? tell me how are we to shake loose the memories that seem to have slipped away from the older ones.

And some wonder why we have little patience with whose damn laugh is worse, or what a haircut cost, or or or....


...and yes, all these years later, when they showed the bomb going off over Hiroshima, I too cheered! For I remember my father and Uncle and they said they never cheered so loudly or so hard in their lives as they did when Japan surrendered....they knew another half million of them would not have to die!

[Celebration]

12. And still in Japan

How can they not hold memories?

My daughter is now in Japan, her third time there. She knows of a recently married couple that took their honemoon in Hiroshima!!

Once she encountered a very old woman on the train, who stared at her and her blond hair with hatred. It made her so uncomfortable, but she knew where she was coming from.

She volunteered at an old folk's place in Japan for Alzheimer's. One man had taught junior high school students before the war. All he could talk about was all of his students that died in the war.

Oh, my gosh WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Romulox]

55. The Japanese have forgotten Nanking...nt

[Retired AF Dem]

98. Japan has forgotten a lot

They have forgotten the millions they slaughtered. Japan was not the victim in this war.

[Romulox]

108. The Japanese sure have better PR people than the Chinese

Most people posting to this thread seem blissfully unaware that Japan's wartime atrocities rival those of Nazi Germany.

Japan has successfully triangulated itself into a WWII victim, and too many are willing to uncritically lap it up. :wtf:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

13. Welcome to DU, Fed_Up_Grammy!

I agree, Fuck hate and fuck war.

:hi:

[Gregorian]

17. We simply must get control of our media.

Our perspectives are actively skewed in order to make us sympathetic with the needs of the corporations. And with that of our government. But not to challenge them.

We're going down an ever increasingly dangerous road of ignorance now. And who knows how you might have felt about those bombs dropping had you really known the truth. We still don't know the truth about so many secret acts taken by our government. And that includes those that led up to and ended that war.

I won't kill. I won't go to war.

[Cha]

19. The "media" is the one..to

get control of because they have the loud and pervasive brainwashing tools. Look how far down the path to ruin "the media" has taken the USA since it began its concentrated campaign.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

18. Welcome Grammy!

I wish my grammy swore like you! :hi:

[Fed_Up_Grammy]

53. She probably does---but not around you ! n/t

[bonito]

20. WELCOME!!!

:hug:

[Hydra]

22. Isn't it interesting how things can be so unclear at the time

and become so clear afterward?

The past comes to haunt us so often, but so few of us listen. We opened Pandora's box, and now it seems we shall do so again, and again, it shall be the unworthy man who gives the order.

"We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." I suppose we all thought that, one way or another."

J. Robert Oppenheimer

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Welcome to DU

[KitchenWitch]

25. Fuck hate, fuck war, and Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Aristus]

26. 156 Americans being held as POW's were killed in Nagasaki when the Bomb was dropped.

Told that to a guy the other day. Surprised the shit out of him. Yes, we killed Americans with the Bomb...

[Hydra]

43. That's an exceptional piece of information

so much for our "pearly white" image in WWII...again

[lvx35]

27. Great post. nt

[Forkboy]

28. Welcome to DU.

Thanks for this post.

[unhappycamper]

29. Welcome to DU Fed_Up_Grammy!

Come join us at the Veterans Day parade in Boston. You'll meet some kindred spirits.

[Zandor]

30. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the right thing to do

But I agree, war is hell.

[shance]

35. No, they weren't. Govt. documented that Truman and others knew Japan was surrendering

and yet decided to show what 'men' they were and as a result killed thousands of innocent people anyway.

[Zandor]

37. I really doubt that

The bomblings weren't necessary, but Truamn wanted to feel like a man?

[shance]

38. Yep. Or more precisely he and others wanted to show Russia what giant bombs we had

and how we could drop them on innocent people and be really important that way.

For the record Truman did some good things. My father who was a doctor in the Phillipines during WWII would say he did.

But I have come to believe he was probably more of an arrogant hot head than a leader.

Leaders don't shower innocent people and animals with bombs that kill and destroy for decades to come, unless they are misled, grossly lacking in gray matter, or narcissistic and psychpathic in make-up. I tend to believe perhaps Truman was misled. Even though as Truman said the buck stopped with him. WHich is certainly more than Bush has ever said.

However, documents now prove Japan was going to surrender and the bombs came down anyway.

I am hoping to find an old post which elaborates more on the bombings.

[Zandor]

40. Do you have a link

to a reliable source?

[LSK]

41. please stop, this is not the thread for a flamewar debating the issue

The OP had a rough time dealing with it then and is reminded of that rough time now. Have some respect please.

[localroger]

51. Richard Rhodes: The Making of the Atomic Bomb

It is well documented that we had broken their codes and knew the terms they were willing to accept, which were the terms we eventually offered them after the Bombings. The Secretary of War thought using the Bomb was unnecessary. There was no chance that the invasion of Japan was ever going to happen; had the Trinity test not worked, we would have offered them the terms they were asking for and ended the war that way.

[Thothmes]

105. Why should we have offered Japan terms seperate from Germany

[qdemn7]

59. No sympathy here for the Japanese, none....

The Chinese suffered between 20-35 MILLION casualties during the Japanese invasion of China (1937-1945).

They forced Korean women into sexual slavery.

Everywhere the Japanese won they acted like barbarians toward our and our allies captured soldiers, sailors and airman and civilians. They beat, starved, tortured and executed men and women.

They used living human beings as test subjects under their infamous biological warfare Unit 731. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

If the bomb has been available 6 months sooner, or the war lasted 6 months longer, then Berlin would have been the first target. No one would have said a damn thing because the attitude would have been that the dirty fascists got what they deserved. The Japanese were just as bad as the Nazis, but too many fools weep bitter crocodile tears for the "innocent victims" of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[localroger]

68. Very Ironically...

...there are probably a lot of Iraqis who currently feel exactly the same way about us.

We had a third atomic bomb ready after Nagasaki, but the reason we never dropped it is that Harry Truman stopped the campaign. Not because we thought it had worked to stop the war -- we were in fact amazed that it hadn't, not having counted on the completeness of destruction slowing the news, and our leaders knew the war was stopped anyway because we knew the surrender terms the Japanese were willing to consider and were really quite willing to offer them -- but because, as Truman wrote in his diary, he couldn't stand the thought of "killing all those kids."

[dickbearton]

70. qdemn7, you should be careful who you call a fool...

for a person without sympathy can be the biggest fool of all.

[qdemn7]

78. I have plenty of sympathy

For the Chinese, for the Koreans, for the Filipinos, for the Australians, for the British, for the Americans, for all those who were victims of Japanese atrocities. Just none for the Japanese.

Just WHY pray tell me, do the Japanese fit into some special category?

[defendandprotect]

82. In fact, currently, we've tried to arrange the rearming of Japan . . ..

while Japan has repeated that they don't think they're trustworthy . . . . as in "look what we did the last time we had armies!!" . . ..

But, arms sales are important to the US -- we spread them all over the world!!

MIIC rules!!!

[trusty elf]

49. The right thing to do?!?!?!?!?!?

I'm appalled.

[defendandprotect]

81. They were not the right thing to do -- and heavyweights like IKE disagreed and many others like him

It was a cowardly thing to do --
These bombs were purposefully dropped on communities -- on innocent people selected to put the nation in shock and awe--

And, today, WE, in America have been put into shock and awe by these same fascists --
Only now the bombs are exploding in our own land --

Nor was there any reason for our attack on Vietnam . . . . nor Iraq --
Add it all up -- extreme and inhumane violence by men dedicated to destruction.

[Dark]

90. Nevermind the many more deaths on BOTH sides, and the destruction of the Japanese isle,

that would have come about had we decided to invade.

[defendandprotect]

91. We would not have had to invade -- Japan was finished -- ready to surrender ---

Truman got some stuff going about "unconditional" surrender to elongate this tragedy...
in the end they accept a "conditional" surrender --

[Dark]

96. Uh, no, read a history book. The Japanese were not going to got without a long fight.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki

The next attack was scheduled for Kyushu in November 1945. An easy success seemed unlikely. The Japanese had fought practically to the last man on Iwo Jima, and hundreds of soldiers and civilians had jumped off cliffs at the southern end of Okinawa rather than surrender. Kamikaze planes had sunk 15 naval vessels and damaged 200 off Okinawa.

snip

Two more bombs had been built, and the possibility arose of using them to convince the Japanese to surrender. President Harry S. Truman decided to allow the bombs to be dropped because, he said, he believed they might save thousands of American lives. For maximum psychological impact, they were used in quick succession, one over Hiroshima on August 6, the other over Nagasaki on August 9. These cities had not previously been bombed, and thus the bombs’ damage could be accurately assessed. U.S. estimates put the number killed in Hiroshima at 66,000 to 78,000 and in Nagasaki at 39,000. Japanese estimates gave a combined total of 240,000. The USSR declared war on Japan on August 8 and invaded Manchuria the next day.



http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Generic&content_type_id=50749&display_order=1&sub_display_order=2&mini_id=1078

And the only real condition was that they got to keep their Emperor -- and U.S. occupation.

[defendandprotect]

109. Our history of white male propaganda -- ??? Winners write history ---

Again, Eisenhower and many others understood that Japan was no threat --
Japan was finished -- about to surrender --
Truman was insisting on "unconditional" surrender --
However, after the bomb they accepted Japan's "condiditional" surrender --

This was a cruel and inhumane act --
And, perhaps, you only need to consider what you'd be thinking of it if the shoe were on the other foot?
America set a precedent with the dropping of atomic bombs on innocent citizens which I hope we will not one day see repeated with ourselves as the bombed -- !!!

[Thothmes]

104. Surrender

Unconditional surrender was in fact the basis of the Potsdam accords. The allies all greed to that fact. The fact the Emperor of Japan remained on the chrysanthemum throne after the war was a decision by the occupying forces. Do you think for one instance we should have accepted a negotiated surrender of Germany, say in November of 1944, if Hitler was to remain in power as one of the terms.

[defendandprotect]

110. I am describing to you what Truman called for and what Truman accepted ---

[Bubba HoHoHo Tep]

97. My grandfather died at the hands of the Japanese

So while it stinks to have to drop a bomb, the truth of the matter is they worked and other Americans weren't killed.

I hate to get into such a sensitive issue as a newbie, but there is no nice way to kill people in war. Killing sucks. Losing to a militaristic bunch who tortured and raped and killed like the Japanese was unacceptable. And the truth is the Japanese still had armies and were still killing people until they surrendered.

Hopefully humans will find better ways to work out their problems but I doubt it.

[BearSquirrel2]

85. I used to loathe those actions ...

I used to loathe those actions. Despite backchannel overtures by the Japanese, dropping the bombs was unavoidable. They HAD to do it to avoid an invasion which by the conduct on the other islands would have killed even more Japanese.

The price was terrible. But that is war. To the dead, there is no difference between an incendiary bombing and a nuclear bomb.

[defendandprotect]

92. IKE disagreed with your analysis . . . as many other officials did ---

[CGowen]

31. Truman: “....the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base. "

http://www.radio.rai.it/radio3/archivio_2001/audio/hiroshima1945_08_09.ram

[BoneDaddy]

32. Don't beat yourself up too much please

The threat from Japan was grave and countless numbers of good men were lost in fighting on the Pacific front.

Were the dropping of those two bombs necessary? We will never ever really know as it is easy to have 20/20 hindsight. It is good that you have come full circle. As a scared 13 year old, I wouldn't hold it against you.
Peace.

[Sufficient Voice]

33. Excellent post.

Thank you for your bold confession.

[Vidar]

34. Great post. Welcome to DU.

[smoogatz]

36. So did my father.

He was in the army, island-hopping his way across the Pacific. He would have been part of the Japan invasion force, had it come to that. He was pretty damn happy when the Japanese surrendered; so were about a half million other U.S. servicemen.

[OneBlueSky]

39. watching "War" on PBS makes you wonder how anyone can intentionally go to war . . .

when it's not absolutely necessary . . . seeing and hearing the realities of warfare over a half century ago, and pondering how "improved" weaponry is in 2007, the idea that chickenhawks like Goerge Bush and Dick Cheney can send American men and women into combat for no good reason is so repugnant that it makes you ill . . . yet they've done it, and are about to do it again -- and no one in Congress, it appears, is going to stop them . . .

that this country has fallen to such depths of depravity after so heroically defeating Germany and Japan just 60 years ago is a sad commentary on our values as Americans and as humans . . . how far we have fallen . . .

[bdamomma]

100. yes, very sad, we were held in such high esteem back then

look at us now, even the public backed up the troops by contributing/sacrificing, but again, right now we are in this invasion due to pre emptive tactics, damn these neo cons not one of one served.

[truedelphi]

42. My father who had fought in WWII and who expected to be shipped from England to Japan's shores

Was relieved that the bombs were dropped.

But like you, he later on was so upset that his younger years had been spent fighting and killing.

"What if that energy of all of who fought, who stayed awake for days at a time, who went without food while battles raged, if that energy had gone into some world conquest for the good - building rather than destroying something."

[janetle]

44. My Mom says she now understands Jeannette Rankin

My Mom is 79 and she too was supportive of our efforts during WW2 including the bombing of Japan. She married my Dad shortly after the war. He was a veteran and had been a POW in Germany.

But she just told me a few days ago that she is now totally against war generally and specifically against this war. As she ages she is becoming more like Jeannette Rankin, she said. Her rationale is that we always seem to end wars with a treaty so why can't this be done before a life is ever lost???

My Mom lives in Montana and in case you do not know who Jeannette Rankin is: She was the first female member of Congress at the time women received the right to vote in this country. She was a republican and from Montana. She was against entry into WW1 and again as a member of Congress in 1940, she was against WW2. Needless to say, she became extremely unpopular. I for one am proud that the state of my birth spawned such a strong woman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeannette_Rankin

G--damnit! Sally Field was right.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. That's how I felt about the firebombing of Dresden.

God knows how many of our boys would have been killed if we'd had to slog our way through that den of clockmakers and chocolatiers.

[provis99]

47. They needn't worry

The white phosphorous the allies dropped on all those dangerous war refugees in Dresden killed them off pretty good. Odd little fact about the bombing of Dresden: white phosphorous burns while exposed to air, but stops temporarily when wet. So when they got covered with the sticky stuff, thousands of refugees jumped into the river, the fire on their bodies then temporarily extinguished. Then when they got out of the river, the white phosphorous on their skins erupted into flames again. Thus followed a circle of jumping back into the water to extinguish the flames, going back to shore again reigniting the flames, back into the water, etc. Until they died. Kurt Vonnegut reported on this phenomena while he was a prisoner of war in Dresden during the bombing.

Given a choice, I would have preferred being at the Nagasaki/Hiroshima bombing. Death in a week from radiation poisoning is less painful than dying from being slowly cooked alive.

[Squatch]

48. I thought Bob Boudelang had returned

when I first saw the OP.

[Felix Mala]

50. Crunching the numbers in the Ken Burns film...

It looks like dropping the bomb saved hundreds of thousands of Japanese, kept the non-industrial areas of most of their cities intact and prevented Soviet domination in the region. Aside from the horror of the weapon itself, the Japanese should be grateful that we saved them from themselves.

I didn't know, as Burns reported, that Truman was asked if he was prepared to explain at his impeachment trial why he didn't go along with the bomb instead of getting 500,000 troops killed.

On the other hand, it's never good, in the long run, to use machinery to get you out of a situation that human frailty gets you into. We've never developed an effective way to negotiate around the existence of this weapon. Those who don't have it still want it. The swift end to the war produced a kind of untried ultra-nationalistic that will get us into a whopper of a mess someday if it hasn't already.

[caraher]

52. The hatred for the Japanese was pretty intense back then

I was born long after the war, but I remember reading of a Gallup survey conducted in 1945 where the most popular response to a question about using atomic bombs against Japan was something to the effect of "We should drop A-bombs on Japan until we run out of them." For some, it was as much about punishing the Japanese as ending the war.

[Romulox]

54. Ask the Chinese who lived through that era about their opinion of the Japanese...

Many people aren't aware that the Japanese killed 15,000,000 or more Chinese civilians during the war.

[Hobarticus]

56. Didn't have to live through it....

I have Chinese-born friends, and they HATE the Japanese for this very reason. Can't even pretend to hide it. They weren't even alive then.

Guess it's the same for the Koreans, too.

[Arkansas Granny]

64. Even as late as the 1980's my mother, who worked in defense

plants during WW2, told me that she still did not trust the Japanese. She had heard that they were buying property in the United States and were investing in our stock market. She was sure that they were trying to undermine the U.S. economy. I don't know that she hated them, but she still felt a strong measure of distrust toward the Japanese.

[Felinity]

57. Watching The War

I keep asking, "Why?" "Why?"

War is senseless, completely devoid of reason. I sit and stare in amazement and anguish, witnessing some 60 years later what my parents lived through. I listen to the stories of the soldier, the little girl, the mothers of the fallen, the shipbuilders and riveters.

At one point, I felt my heart break wide open and began to cry. Not sob, not boohoo histrionics, but the tears of one who is one of them: the Allies, the Nazi's, the Japanese, the profiteers. I witness their pain and grieve, reservedly, that despite their sacrifice, I live in a world where they all still exist, and it is my world, and it has not changed.

My tears flow as I tell myself that I, and every other person in this country, and more, owes it to humanity to watch, and bear witness, and feel ashamed. That we did not learn.

Ignorance of War is no excuse. If we ever evolve beyond senseless death and destruction, it will be because we know intimately how stupid, senseless, and horrible is Man's impulse to wage War.


Ironically, I was about to end with a peace symbol smilie, and we don't have one.

Peace.

[jimlup]

58. PBS documentary guilty of slanting the story

The PBS documentary managed to fit the "myth" that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved hundreds of thousands of american lives by specifically picking particular 'facts' while ignoring several others. I was disappointed and felt that not telling the complete story degraded the value of this documentary.

The work by Gar Alperovich tells a somewhat different story. I'm interested in this particular question because I'm a physicist. After several months of study, I've concluded that the bombings were not necessary and may not have really ended the war after all. My strong suspicion is that Japan surrendered because of the Soviet declaration more than because of the atomic bombings. They had not even had a chance to access the damage to Hiroshima when they got word of the Soviet declaration. My opinion is that the Japanese war council was reacting to the Soviet declaration and not directly to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[qdemn7]

60. IF........

If the bomb has been available 6 months sooner, or the war lasted 6 months longer, then Berlin would have been the first target. No one would have said a damn thing because the attitude would have been that the dirty fascists got what they deserved. The Japanese were just as bad as the Nazis, but too many fools weep bitter crocodile tears for the "innocent victims" of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[stimbox]

80. WTF?

"but too many fools weep bitter crocodile tears for the "innocent victims" of Hiroshima and Nagasaki."

Words fail me.

[jimlup]

83. personal attack makes your argument?

Resorting to ad hominem attack serious undermines the credibility of your argument.

I think this is a hard one for some people emotionally regardless of which side you are on. That is understandable. WWII was obviously one of the most tramatic situations modern civilization has faced. If the bomb had been dropped against German civilians it would have been a war crime as it was in the case of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Nobody "had it coming" - attacking civilians is deeply immoral and it is the most serious war crime by the modern conventions.

I find the calculus of lives very reprehensible since the attack involved civilians. If the attack had involved a purely military target then I might accept that calculus but an attack targeting civilians is never justifiable regardless of the depravity of the government. This applies to the bombing of Dresden as well as the attacks of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[qdemn7]

88. Maybe so....

But I stand by everything I said. As far bombing the German civilians, I have no doubt it would have happened. Those scientists who worked on the bomb (many of the Jewish refugees from Hitler) did not seem to develop scruples until it was clear that Germany would no longer be the target. They knew for a fact that Berlin, and its civilians would certainly be the main target. And since you brought us Dresden, I see no difference, none, between the fire-bombing (and the fire-bombing of Tokyo and other Japanese cities) and the atomic bombings. So I stand by the "weeping bitter tears" statement.

As as far as the "calculus" of war goes, any of the Allied governments would have done the same. Do you think if Britain or the USSR or China, would have had the bomb in 1941, they would have hesitated to use it? I don't think so.

People these days find it easy to take some moral high-ground when they are not involved in a war to the knife for the future of civilization. Hindsight is easy.

And I personally think if Truman had not used the bomb out of moral scruples, and Operation Downfall had gone ahead, then America would have suffered terrible casualties. The truth about the bomb would have come out. and I think Truman would have been impeached and possibly executed for Treason. And all of THAT would have been the end of the Democratic Party.

[jimlup]

89. No not that way

Personally, I have reason to suspect that Truman could have negotiated favorable surrender terms without the bomb. As I stated in other posts, I believe the primary motivation for the Japanese surrender was the Soviet declaration of war. The bomb may have been a factor but it is hard to believe, based on what we know now, that the war council actually had a real grasp of what had actually happened. About all they knew was that Hiroshima went off the air.

But, here is the real thing. It doesn't matter what the moral calculus of governments is - morally, I find the calculus of military versus civilians lives unacceptable. The Geneva conventions enacted after WWII agree with me on this point. I don't agree that I don't have a basis to judge because I've never been "under fire". I think it is true that people under fire have a harder moral dilemma but the men in the trenches were not asked to make this decision, Truman was.

Furthermore, we all face death. We are all up against the same thing. It seems to me condescending to claim that some have a special insight into morality because they have been to war. Actually, I would argue that, if anything, the converse is true.

I don't disagree with you about the scientists sudden aversion to the bomb. Hell, ol' Fermi didn't want to bother to finish the bomb - he wanted to just spread radiation everywhere around Germany! Fortunately, the other scientists just ignored this suggestion. Fermi was an a-hole. Smart, but an a-hole nonetheless.

[Thothmes]

101. Trumans terms

Why should President Truman negotiate a peace with Japan. The British, Soviets, Chinese and the Americans all agreed that the only terms acceptable for the surrender of JAPAN were stated in the Potsdam accords. All Japan would have had to do was accept those terms and the war would have ended the next day.

[jimlup]

106. Atomic Diplomacy

Yes, I'm not disagreeing with that. But there were clear and substaintial back channel options that were not pursued. I hold Truman responsible for not considering other possiblities that could have ending the war without killing 200,000+ civilians. Truman could have pursued these options and discovered that Japan was essentially in agreement with the Potsdam declaration on surrender. In fact, I argue that it was the Soviet declaration of war and not the atom bomb that pushed them over the final overt edge.

I believe Truman acted irresponsibly with regards to the civilian lives in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and that other options were open that were not pursued. It's not an "all or none" which is how the other side wishes to present the "history".

Of course, at some level we will never know. Nevertheless, I've researched this carefully for myself and these are the conclusions that I have come to. It isn't a trivial pursuit. The matter is significantly difficult. I'd recommend Gar Alporvitch's book for those who are interested:

Atomic Diplomacy: Hiroshima and Potsdam : The Use of the Atomic Bomb and the American Confrontation With Soviet Power (Paperback)
by Gar Alperovitz (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/Atomic-Diplomacy-Hiroshima-American-Confrontation/dp/074530947X

[Rage for Order]

93. Would an attack on Detroit in WW2 have been justified?

From an Axis standpoint. It's where the US was cranking out jeeps and tanks by the thousands. What about an attack on Seattle, where Boeing was manufacturing aircraft? Both of those cities were vitally important to the US war effort, yet both are also large civilian population centers. Unfortunately there are very very few areas that can be called "purely military targets", as military targets tend to be located near population centers and draw support and civilian workers from these population centers. Should the US have dropped the atomic bomb on a Japanese aircraft carrier in the middle of the Pacific Ocean?

[localroger]

71. Richard Rhodes came to the same conclusion

He interviewed nearly all the surviving principals from all three governments and won both the Pulitzer and National Book Award for <i>The Making of the Atomic Bomb</i>, and he paints a pretty convincing picture that the bombings were unnecessary.

[dickbearton]

73. jimlup, you are right...

much of the ignorance and stupidity in America comes from myth
and the MSM.

[caraher]

84. I haven't watched all of The War yet...

my impression is the Burns made a decision to let the documentary tell the story of the war as experienced and felt through American eyes. If one approaches it with that understanding, it's pretty faithful to the voices of Americans who lived through it.

One example of this I did notice was when one of Burns' subjects was discussing kamikaze pilots. The interviewee made a remark to the effect that kamikaze pilots felt that their final act guaranteed a special place in heaven for them, adding, "They were wrong." This man was in no position to tell us what kamikaze pilots believed except for the story as told to him by the news media. Research by historians reveals that, although the Japanese wrapped the kamikaze experiment in the trappings of their state religion, many, perhaps even most, volunteers set little store by promises of heaven. They tended to be *less* religious than many of their peers; their motivation was a combination of a spirit of self-sacrifice coupled with a certain utilitarian calculation of the worth of the project (I die but take with me hundreds or thousands of the enemy along with a capital ship.)

Is it the documentarian's job to provide the consensus of professional historians at every step? In a work like this, it's not clear. I don't think a detailed analysis of the mindset of the kamikaze pilot is immediately relevant to the war as this interviewee experienced it. At the same time, I think Burns must admit that his decision not to challenge key elements of the mythology that has grown around the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japanese cities is a judgment open to question. This is a tremendously important issue, especially in a nation with such persistent delusions of unquestionable virtue. Making documentary with this wide distribution arguably carries with it a special responsibility to challenge particularly pernicious myths. Is this the equivalent of a Nazi-era documentary on WWI presenting, with little challenge, the "stab in the back" trope of the German's WWI defeat?

I think Burns didn't want to deal with the immense public controversy that would have accompanied a challenge to the received wisdom about the justice of the atomic bombings. To his credit, Burns does allow his subjects to question the degree of virtue with which the US fought "The Good War." But in a way, even that choice is not as brave as it might appear, the series appearing as it does during a time in which Republican candidates are falling all over themselves doing Jack Bauer impersonations and Bill O'Reilly tries to claim ill-treatment of our foes is old hat by butchering the history of the Malmedy massacre. If you look at what happened in the '90s to the Smithsonian's planned Enola Gay exhibit, it's not hard to see why Burns would want to skip the hard questions. Certainly the corporate sponsors would have disappeared in any such controversy.

[jimlup]

86. sort of agree

I agree partially with your argument. Nevertheless, I was disappointed when I viewed the discussion of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings. He actually went to significant trouble to support the veterans opinion despite contradicting evidence. I don't fault the veterans for their position. I can understand why they believe the myth of liberation. I think the US government wanted that. But he went out of his way to quote a study by Hoover that anticipated 400,000 US casualties in a land invasion. This study was not the most reliable and was not seriously considered by the generals in the calculations. He clearly used it, as Truman later did, to justify the position. He also used implication and omission to ignore the pending surrender terms that the US was well aware of.

I was actually happy to see the veterans viewpoint. I agree that it deserves special attention. I blame Truman for not having the moral courage to stop the bombing. Eisenhower and others have argued that FDR never would have done it.

[caraher]

87. I'll pay special attention when I get around to watching it

Obviously I don't know exactly how far Burns goes in bolstering the "party line." Thanks for your take on what he did!

[Black Adder]

62. Welcome F'ed-up-Grammy

All war is hell.
Stupid, unnecessary wars (like Vietnam & Iraq) are senseless.
WW2 was a necessary war and dropping the 2 A-Bombs on Japan was the right thing to do and saved millions of American and Japanese lives..
Don't feel guilty or lose an minutes sleep over that.

[DrunkenMaster]

65. one of the most shameful moments of my childhood

was when, during the Iranian hostage crisis and for my birthday, I asked a local radio station to play a parody of the Beach Boy's "Barbara Ann" titled "Bomb Iran".

I was a kid but I'm still deeply, deeply ashamed of my idiocy.

[ProudDad]

66. Here's an idea whose time has come...

The Department of Peace

The United States was founded on hope, optimism, and a commitment to freedom. We can once again become a beacon of hope for the world. To do that, we must reject the current administration's policies of fear, suspicion, and preemptive war. It is time to jettison our illusions and fears and to transform age-old challenges with new thinking. This is the idea behind my proposal to establish a Department of Peace. This is the idea to make nonviolence an organizing principle at home and abroad and dedicate ourselves to peaceful coexistence, consensus building, disarmament, and respect for international treaties. Violence and war are not inevitable. Nonviolence and peace are inevitable.


We can conceive of peace as not simply the absence of violence but the presence of the capacity for a higher evolution of human awareness, of respect, trust, and integrity. We can conceive of peace as a tool to tap the infinite capabilities of humanity to transform consciousness and conditions that impel or compel violence at a personal, group, or national level toward creating understanding, compassion, and love. We can bring forth new understandings where peace, not war, becomes inevitable. We can move from wars to end all wars to peace to end all wars.

Citizens across the United States are now uniting in a great cause to establish a Department of Peace, seeking nothing less than the transformation of our society, to make nonviolence an organizing principle, to make war archaic through creating a paradigm shift in our culture for human development for economic and political justice and for violence control. Its work in violence control will be to support disarmament, treaties, peaceful coexistence and peaceful consensus building. Its focus on economic and political justice will examine and enhance resource distribution, human and economic rights and strengthen democratic values.

----------

http://www.dennis4president.com/go/resources/the-department-of-peace/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXpMuq4bBz4
http://www.thepeacealliance.org/

[upi402]

69. I like your post to

It reminds me of an America where gonzo Hollywood-values Republicans would NEVER be elected, and thoughtful, brave, and aware people would be our leaders.

(Ronald Reagan, Aaahnold, and Fred Thompson)

[bdamomma]

102. Department of Peace, it should be considered we need it more

than ever now.

[upi402]

67. Fuckin'-A Grammy!!!!

I'm witcha!

[grannie4peace]

74. welcome

yeah, welcome.... i hope they play it again so i can tivo it. let's pray for the wisdom to get our planet back tune with Creation & our Creator :hippie: i wasn't born until 1946 .i think the first political thing i remember was eisenhower being sworn in . its a good place here at du-- you get awhole lot more news here :D :D :D :D :headbang:

[hayu_lol]

79. Thanks Granny...

I was 10 when that war ended. Two uncles returned from that war--the first time I saw them. LA exploded with celebration. Remember the covers of Life, The Saturday Evening Post, Colliers as they also celebrated with us.

Those who don't live through something should read a bit more about it. Those were very dark times. Not like today's wars that only occupy a little bit of our time and energy.

I also remember rationing and what we all had to do without.

[bluestateboomer]

75. I was born 9 months after the bombs were dropped.

My father was scheduled to be in the invasion forces going to Japan. If the war had not ended, it's conceivable I would have never known him. that said, I don't know whether the bomb stopped the war or was justified. I have since traveled all over Japan, visited Hiroshima and Nagasaki and seen their peace parks. I think there is enough guilt and stupidity to go around all sides of the WWII conflict. One of the biggest ironies of my life is that after all the wartime animosity, my closest non-american friends are German and Japanese.:hug:

[Ken Burch]

76. Eloquently put , "grammy".

It's never too late to grow or change.

Don't be too hard on yourself about your initial reaction, though. Nobody knew then what an atomic bomb could do to people(even people who weren't born when the bomb was actually dropped).

I deeply respect the lessons you've taken from this. Carry on, and STAY "Fed Up".

[alarimer]

77. Personally I am shocked and disgusted by the US behavior during that war

As far as I am concerned the Japanese concentration, err, internment camps negated every good thing Roosevelt ever did. What a despicable, disgusting act that made us no better than our enemies. Worse, actually, in some ways because of our supposed freedom. Well freedom if you were white. All those African Americans were drafted to defend a country that despised them and treated them very much like second class citizens. None of them should have volunteered to defend this country. In fact they should have refused until they were granted the same freedom as everyone else.

And then of course the war crimes we actively participated in, which in no way diminishes the war crimes of the other side, but WE should have been better than that.

Of course war sucks. There are no good wars. NONE. Not even that one.

[begin_within]

94. We should have nuked ALL of Japan.

Seriously - nobody in Japan deserved to live, after what the Japanese did to the Chinese.

[Thothmes]

99. Wasnt going to happen, we only had two operable bombs..

[DemocratSinceBirth]

103. Surely You Don't Believe In Collective Guilt...

eom

[defendandprotect]

111. Like any other kind of brutality, we ourselves are harmed by it.

Atomic weapons are an attack on nature -- we are part of nature.
What long lasting effect these weapons may have had on the environment is still being questioned.

Nature provides that there is no way we can do harm to others without doing harm to ourselves.

[yellowdogintexas]

107. welcome to DU. and thanks for the thoughtful post

My mom fed me much valuable info about life during the war, with her only brother on the front everywhere in Europe. My dad was too but she didn't meet him until after the war was over. I think back on both these men who were my dual father figures, and can't help but think how much that experience shaped their lives. PTSD was an unknown then.

I am certain my father's chronic depression and eventual suicide was at least partially a result of his war experiences. He was a type of person who would be haunted, and he never talked about any part of his war experiences just the stateside parts. He was in the Bulge, nearly lost his feet.

Everybody had someone dear to them in the conflicts around the world.

Your thoughts and comments and life experiences will be wonderful on this site.