Molly Ivins: "I will not support Hillary Clinton for President."

[Bluebear]

I still mourn this woman.


========

I'd like to make it clear to the people who run the Democratic Party that I will not support Hillary Clinton for president. Enough. Enough triangulation, calculation and equivocation. Enough clever straddling, enough not offending anyone This is not a Dick Morris election. Sen. Clinton is apparently incapable of taking a clear stand on the war in Iraq, and that alone is enough to disqualify her. Her failure to speak out on Terri Schiavo, not to mention that gross pandering on flag-burning, are just contemptible little dodges...

What kind of courage does it take, for mercy's sake? The majority of the American people (55 percent) think the war in Iraq is a mistake and that we should get out. The majority (65 percent) of the American people want single-payer health care and are willing to pay more taxes to get it. The majority (86 percent) of the American people favor raising the minimum wage. The majority of the American people (60 percent) favor repealing Bush's tax cuts, or at least those that go only to the rich. The majority (66 percent) wants to reduce the deficit not by cutting domestic spending, but by reducing Pentagon spending or raising taxes.

The majority (77 percent) thinks we should do "whatever it takes" to protect the environment. The majority (87 percent) thinks big oil companies are gouging consumers and would support a windfall profits tax. That is the center, you fools. WHO ARE YOU AFRAID OF?

I listen to people like Rahm Emanuel superciliously explaining elementary politics to us clueless naifs outside the Beltway ("First, you have to win elections"). Can't you even read the damn polls? Here's a prize example by someone named Barry Casselman, who writes, "There is an invisible civil war in the Democratic Party, and it is between those who are attempting to satisfy the defeatist and pacifist left base of the party and those who are attempting to prepare the party for successful elections in 2006 and 2008."

This supposedly pits Howard Dean, Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi, emboldened by "a string of bad news from the Middle East ... into calling for premature retreat from Iraq," versus those pragmatic folk like Steny Hoyer, Rahm Emmanuel, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden and Joe Lieberman....

Do not sit there cowering and pretending the only way to win is as Republican-lite. If the Washington-based party can't get up and fight, we'll find someone who can.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/01/20/ivins.hillary/index.html

[fenriswolf]

1. and kucinich supports

the "american center" vote kucinich and tell all your friends about him, the only chance we get is if the people inform the other people.

[Warren DeMontague]

2. And in January of 2006, when this was written, I felt exactly the same way.

Now, I'm going to support the Democratic Nominee, whoever he or she is. Period.

[Bluebear]

3. But of course, me too.

I believe Molly would too.

I regard this as a kind of "primary" column.

[Warren DeMontague]

4. Gotcha.

For that, I'm leaning towards Kucinich, assuming Gore doesn't get in. Maybe Edwards. We'll see.

[JackBeck]

13. We're on the same page.

Voting for Kucinich in the primaries, even though we're a "late state". But out of the "top Three" Edwards has increasingly been geting my attention.

As for Molly, I miss her every day. One of my favorite lines of hers, when discussing how slick a certain politician from Texas was, wrote something along the lines of: "Nothing is more slicker than greased owl shit".

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

5. No, Molly had something called amemory

and would not be fooled by Hillary's primary season lip service

[Bluebear]

6. Indeed.

I think we were just affirming that Ivins would certainly vote for Clinton over the Republican nominee if that is how the race turns out.

[puebloknot]

149. Not fair. She can't speak for herself now. nt

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

187. I never read any piece of hers advocating for the Republican view, well, except

she said after Cheney shot Harry Whittington whom, IIRC, she described as the only decent Republican lawyer in the state.

MKJ

[puebloknot]

189. Not voting for Hillary is a turn of the prism different from advocating...

...the Republican view. But I'm sure if Molly were still here, she would be doing the same kind of soul-searching a lot of us are doing in trying to stay Democratic, but still stay true to ourselves. The Dems are making that exceedingly difficult.

Thanks for writing!

[Somawas]

99. Ifeel this way even more intensely now

than I did in January 2006. And still won't support Hillary.

[5X]

7. Now this is some writing that should go to the greatest page. K and R .. n/t

[youngharry]

176. Molly & Hillary

Moreover, Molly, Hillary would never hold the Bush Crime Syndicate accountable for all of its' crimes after the election.

THEY NEED TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TO THIS COUNTRY AND THE WORLD---BUSH, CHENEY, RUMSFELD, RICE, ROVE, CARD, GONZALES, ETC., ETC., ETC.

[walldude]

8. Hey Bear have you seen this Vanity Fair article?

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/11/clinton200711?currentPage=1

Quite interesting, and convinced me that Gore will not run if she is in the race.

edit to fix link.

[Bluebear]

11. THANK you for the article, wd, I will read tonight!

:toast:

[gateley]

15. Interesting article -- thanks for posting the link. It was an eye-opener for me. nt

[walldude]

16. Me as well, it answered a number of questions I had about

why Gore did and said certain things in the election run up. I gained more respect for him after reading this.

[still_one]

19. Even more reason why I dispise the Clintons /nt

[connecticut yankee]

43. Very revealing

I didn't realize there was so much behind the scenes back-biting.

It probably explains why Gore has been so reluctant to run. They'd probaably sabotage him from the get-go.

[TexasBushwhacker]

127. I hadn't even though about the $$$ issue, ....

about how Hillary's Senate campaign was siphoning off dollars that might have gone to Gore otherwise. I'm sure that a fair number of those dollars that went into Hillary's war chest instead of Al's were from the music industry, who was still pissed at Tipper because of her involvement with the PMRC (Parents Music Resource Center) when Al was in the Senate.

[othermeans]

165. Wow that Vanity Fair article was a real eye opener n/t

[gateley]

9. Thank you for posting this. I regret I wasn't interested in politics when she

was writing her editorials. I'm with you guys on voting for the nominee.

[mzmolly]

10. I love Molly, but I expect if it came right down to it, she'd plug her nose.

I saw her speak in MPLS and she reiterated her "vote with your heart in the primaries, and your head in the G.E." position.

My heart is not with Hillary Clinton, but my head is with the Democratic nominee in 2008.

Loves ya BB. :hi:

[Bluebear]

12. Everything you said. XOXO

[Mind_your_head]

20. In this 2008 election ..... I don't think so.......she wouldn't just 'plug her nose'

and vote for the DINO ~ Democrat in Name Only ~ (aka, Hillary, ET AL).

[onehandle]

26. Then you don't know Molly. nt

[MilesColtrane]

44. Must disagree.

She absolutely meant what she wrote.

Besides, as a liberal Texan, her vote in the general presidential election hadn't contributed one elector since 1976.

In Texas, voting third party instead of Democrat doesn't change the outcome of the election. There are simply too many knuckledraggers to make a difference.

[ChiciB1]

156. Maybe YOU Don't Know Molly... THIS Isn't The First Time I've Seen

articles written saying the very same thing. And no, I don't have a link, but I'm sure you can GOOGLE it!

Molly Ivins was a straight shooter and one hell of a woman!! She was around for a very very long time, and had many tales to tell! I lived very close to Austin, TX for quite some time and she was a POWER to be reckoned with! When I went to hear her speak in my town, she lamented what has happened to the Democrats and how "Shrub" screwed us. She also spoke about what was done to Ann Richards too!

I wouldn't bet money, but I don't "think" she would "do Hillary!" Just my opinion from watching her for many many years!

[mzmolly]

104. I think she would.

Especially in "this" 2008 election.

[connecticut yankee]

128. Then you think

she'd vote for the Repuke?

No way!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

146. Especially being from Texas, which is likely to go Republican anyway

A third party voter there would have no effect on the Electoral College outcome.

[Emit]

14. Oh, Gawd.

Thank you for that! I thought I was going crazy -- her words are what goes thru my head daily. I *heart* Molly Ivins.

[usregimechange]

17. kick

[still_one]

18. Of course if you don't vote for Hillary, they will say you are giving the repugs a victory

However, my slant is much different. If you DO VOTE FOR HILLARY, you will be giving the repubs a victory

[NavyDavy]

35. whatever....if you don't vote the dem nominee you deserve

the repuke you get.....period and lose all rights to complain about repuke stupidness, but its your vote to throw away...IMHO

[Swamp Rat]

40. Are you in the Navy?

Are you in danger of being sent back to Iraq again, like my cousin who is in Las Cruces waiting to be shipped out in a few days?

Hillary is not going to stop this GODDAMN IDIOTIC WAR!!!

[still_one]

54. Don't lecture me. If the Democrats lose it is because of who they nominate /nt

[frylock]

81. fucking-A!!

:applause:

[ChiciB1]

157. Disagree... Washington Controls This Stuff... Rahm Emmanuel Is

has tremendous influence, and CHUCK SCHUMER will put the cork in the bottle! And that's New York. Rudy will tank and Repukes really ARE in a mess!

Don't fool yourself... Hillary it triangulation in motion, and she has TONS of help!! THEY know it's time for a Democratic President and POWER says it too!

Just stop and think how VERY MUCH MONEY she's gotten already... that's only the FIRST tip-off!

[BearSquirrel2]

179. As long as the three stooges are in front ...

As long as the three stooges are in front (Giuliani, Mitt Romney, John McCain) are in front the Democrats in a very good position. All three are flip-flopping hypocrites of the highest order. They'll be easy to call to account and no one really likes them anymore.

If Mike Huckabee starts getting some money ... watch out!!

The wildcard in this IS Hillary. Hillary is the one thing that could get bible thumping conservatives out to vote for pro-abortion Giuliani.

Now on to Hillary's political positions. The majority of Americans favor progressive policies. The people with deep pockets who make campaign contributions do not. This is the reason for the triangulation. My favorite candidate is Kucinich. However, I'm really impressed with O'Bama for his ability to stand up on so many issues and still attract the campaign contributions.

As far as getting someone elected, O'Bama is by far the strongest candidate. He is polling ahead of some Republican candidates amongst REPUBLICANS!!!

[lateo]

72. Indeed.

2 sides of the same coin.

[illinoisprogressive]

21. I don't think she would vote while holding her nose. I have read

alot of her writings and she strikes me as someone with not just a strong opinion but, someone who sticks to her guns.
I honestly think she would either not vote or go third party.
And now she would have torn up over the primaries and been even more against Hillary for her pandering and not answering and would be flying off with the keyboard over the press using kid gloves on her. So, Molly would be pissed off as well.
She wrote about how the press acted when they all went down to Texas to see Bush. She asked David Gregory why he was not checking on Bush's record at least and Gregory shrugged as said, but, we like him. he's fun. She did say that the only one to question Bush's character at the time was......tucker!
So the press giving someone she is suspicious of a free pass would royally piss her off.

[AzDar]

22. Kick for Molly...

:kick:

[Hekate]

23. Gods, I miss Molly Ivins. nt

[ForeignSpectator]

24. There need to be a lot more "Look, the emperor wears no clothes" calls...n/t

[deacon]

25. I agree with her 100% n/t

[Perry Logan]

27. Molly Ivins is dead.

[Raster]

30. Yes, unfortunately, Molly is dead, but her words live on, And thank you for your

"astute" observation. You must have worked long and hard to forumulate that response. And I ask you, just because a person is deceased, does it make their words any less meaningful or relevant?

[HughBeaumont]

32. Not as dead as a Democratic party that nominates a corporate-favoring windsock like Hillary.

[deacon]

33. I agree, no more warhawks or warmongers. n/t

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughBeaumont]

49. Not planning on doing that anytime soon.

I'm not the one in favor of nominating a polarizing, baggage-laden windsock who's buddy/buddy with Reaganite Rupert Murdoch, Indian outsourcing companies and Big Insurance.

Oh yeah, accusing other posters of being freepers is against the rules. I'd rather make progressive changes in THIS party than go to a third one. Maybe everyone else needs to follow suit.

[truedelphi]

144. I have your back. Cannot fathom why people don't want to

Have those of us who are unhappy with the DLC end of things being told to either hold our noses and attempt to beleive what we don't believe or else to go off and form a third party.

[urgk]

50. Not very helpful.

I hate to lecture anybody with far more posts than I have, but "whatever go sprew your crap on 3rd party underground or FR " isn't particularly useful to any kind of debate. How about something like "Prove it. Prove Hillary is somehow more beholden to corporate interests than to the interests of the American people." Or, maybe "But the Democratic Party has to go with the more centrist candidate because X, Y and Z." Or something...anything...with facts, citations, links, voting records, thought, logic or informed debate.

In fact, while I'm at it, I'd like to say that to everybody. Site-wide. Engage in debate, prove each other wrong, learn about the issues, get informed, make rational arguments, but don't resort to childishness, even in response to somebody who's already lowered themselves. I don't know what happened to the idea of "being the bigger person" in any given circumstance, but the immature verbal slapfights I've seen in my short time here should be beneath any informed voter whose opinion is worth a damn. Especially a Democrat. Leave it to the Republicans to shout people down, to substitute cheap Junior High wordplay for reason, to make vague accusations and to generally reduce debate to an Ann Coulterish dodgeball match where everybody thinks they win, but Democracy loses.

[Bluebear]

73. You are welcome here anytime, post count or not.

DU should be an exchange of ideas, not a damn cheerleading party. For people in this thread to actually say the late, great Molly Ivins is "full of shit" pains me.

I of course wish I hadn't posted the article now in the interest of harmony and a controversy-free board, which is a shame.

[juno jones]

171. thank you for posting this

Never mind those who hung on Molly's words while she was alive but now... "well, like, she's dead..."

Hil hasn't evolved in action or conscience since January. She just has a bigger war chest. What Molly says goes...

[muriel_volestrangler]

100. Great post

I'd like a lot of those involved in the candidate wars to read it and really think about it. :thumbsup:

[ChiciB1]

158. As You Say... Not Very Helpful... The Deal Seems To Be Sealed

and getting out and working for another candidate doesn't seem to be an option! I'm a BOOMER and have NEVER been so humiliated by The Democratic "powers that be" as I am now!

[Beelzebud]

76. When you moderate your own site you can tell people to leave.

Until then, deal with it...

[lateo]

75. "corporate-favoring windsock"

I lol'ed.

[liberaldemocrat7]

91. Perhaps you will like the bumper sticker then :)

http://www.zazzle.com/democrats_do_not_vote_for_hillary_bumpersticker-128297295667418057?rf=238083065491105452

[mnhtnbb]

154. Hear, hear. Molly was a treasure. Hillary is fools' gold.

[Richard Steele]

46. Thanks for the news flash. As helpful as you are subtle.

[Zodiak]

102. thank you

I've been looking for an excuse to put you on ignore because you have absolutely nothing to say but insults and have never contributed one salient point to this site.

This "Molly is dead" crap is the clincher...we all know she is dead, but you seem to enjoy rubbing it in.

Fuck you. Now you are ignored.

[FedUp_Queer]

151. So is...

Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Franklin Roosevelt, Mother Jones, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, John F. Kennedy, Teddy Roosevelt, and all other great people from 100 years ago and before. Thank God they now have nothing to tell us. What a DUMBASS comment.

[lostnotforgotten]

28. Molly (RIP) - I Agree - Will Never Vote For A Bush War Monger!

eom

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[malaise]

31. Sweet indeed n/t

[NNN0LHI]

34. Didn't Molly vote for Ralph in 2000?

Pretty sure she did.

Don

[Raster]

36. Immaterial if she did or did not. Not germaine to this discussion.

[NavyDavy]

41. it shows she would rather throw away her vote then protect

her country from psychos in the repuke party....

[Raster]

48. Do you know for sure how she voted? And if she did vote for Nader, which is immaterial

and your dredging it up is disengenuious to boot, she did not bring about the defeat of Al Gore. Electoral fraud did. And finally, Davy "who's still in the Navy and probably will be for life...," please, tone down your rhetoric. I can see you feel very strongly about this issue, but, frankly, your posts are downright accusatory and painting with a damned broad brush. This is the primary season. We, as Democrats, ALL have a right to express our opinions. That is the American way. Have a nice day.

[Bluebear]

56. Molly Ivins has done more for the progressive movement than you could even imagine doing.

So please consider carefully when you cast asparagus at her.

[Zandor]

64. She helped get Bush elected

by supporting Nader.

[Bluebear]

"OK, that's because I live in Texas, where a vote for Nader is a "free vote."

Our electors are going to Dubya no matter how Democrats here vote, so for us, this is the equivalent of a primary vote: Go with your heart. - end quote.

[Zandor]

74. So she wanted to stengthen the Green party

Same difference.

[ProudDad]

108. Oooooooh, why are you so afraid of us Greens?

Here's our EVIL set of values... Booooga, booooga, booooga!!!! Be VERY AFRAID!!!! It's the GREEN AGENDA!!!!

=============

1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY
Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives and not be subject to the will of another. Therefore, we will work to increase public participation at every level of government and to ensure that our public representatives are fully accountable to the people who elect them. We will also work to create new types of political organizations which expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process.

2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
All persons should have the rights and opportunity to benefit equally from the resources afforded us by society and the environment. We must consciously confront in ourselves, our organizations, and society at large, barriers such as racism and class oppression, sexism and homophobia, ageism and disability, which act to deny fair treatment and equal justice under the law.

3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM
Human societies must operate with the understanding that we are part of nature, not separate from nature. We must maintain an ecological balance and live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities and our planet. We support a sustainable society which utilizes resources in such a way that future generations will benefit and not suffer from the practices of our generation. To this end we must practice agriculture which replenishes the soil; move to an energy efficient economy; and live in ways that respect the integrity of natural systems.

4. NON-VIOLENCE
It is essential that we develop effective alternatives to society’s current patterns of violence. We will work to demilitarize, and eliminate weapons of mass destruction, without being naive about the intentions of other governments. We recognize the need for self-defense and the defense of others who are in helpless situations. We promote non-violent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace.

5. DECENTRALIZATION
Centralization of wealth and power contributes to social and economic injustice, environmental destruction, and militarization. Therefore, we support a restructuring of social, political and economic institutions away from a system which is controlled by and mostly benefits the powerful few, to a democratic, less bureaucratic system. Decision-making should, as much as possible, remain at the individual and local level, while assuring that civil rights are protected for all citizens.

6. COMMUNITY-BASED ECONOMICS AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE
We recognize it is essential to create a vibrant and sustainable economic system, one that can create jobs and provide a decent standard of living for all people while maintaining a healthy ecological balance. A successful economic system will offer meaningful work with dignity, while paying a “living wage” which reflects the real value of a person’s work.

Local communities must look to economic development that assures protection of the environment and workers’ rights; broad citizen participation in planning; and enhancement of our “quality of life.” We support independently owned and operated companies which are socially responsible, as well as co-operatives and public enterprises that distribute resources and control to more people through democratic participation.

7. FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY
We have inherited a social system based on male domination of politics and economics. We call for the replacement of the cultural ethics of domination and control with more cooperative ways of interacting that respect differences of opinion and gender. Human values such as equity between the sexes, interpersonal responsibility, and honesty must be developed with moral conscience. We should remember that the process that determines our decisions and actions is just as important as achieving the outcome we want.

8. RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY
We believe it is important to value cultural, ethnic, racial, sexual, religious and spiritual diversity, and to promote the development of respectful relationships across these lines.

We believe that the many diverse elements of society should be reflected in our organizations and decision-making bodies, and we support the leadership of people who have been traditionally closed out of leadership roles. We acknowledge and encourage respect for other life forms than our own and the preservation of biodiversity.

9. PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY
We encourage individuals to act to improve their personal well-being and, at the same time, to enhance ecological balance and social harmony. We seek to join with people and organizations around the world to foster peace, economic justice, and the health of the planet.

10. FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY
Our actions and policies should be motivated by long-term goals. We seek to protect valuable natural resources, safely disposing of or “unmaking” all waste we create, while developing a sustainable economics that does not depend on continual expansion for survival. We must counterbalance the drive for short-term profits by assuring that economic development, new technologies, and fiscal policies are responsible to future generations who will inherit the results of our actions.

[Zandor]

116. The scary part is

you put Bush in office and probably wouldn't hesitate to do it all over again.

[ProudDad]

122. It was right-wing dems like you

who put bush into office...

along with your fellow traveler on the Supreme Court...


The REAL scary part is that you didn't read my entire post, did you?

You don't know shit about what the Greens are really about, do you?

The REAL, REAL scary part is that so many folks are more interested in "winning" the horse race than in actually improving the lot of We the People...

[Zandor]

124. I voted Gore

and would do so again.

I want my vote to count.

[D23MIURG23]

166. Then stop supporting politicians who think Democrats should win elections by becoming Republicans.

Your vote only means something if there are multiple approaches to policy in play. If the Democrats would quit selling there soul for a vote and actually stand for something then the Greens wouldn't be a tempting alternative.

[iaviate1]

183. Obviously Green votes count.

Why else would it scare the hell out of so many Dems? Hell, the 3rd party votes supposedly lost the Dems 2 elections now... you'd think you'd be more concerned about winning them back instead of continuing the rightward drift.

[frog92969]

188. Thanks for that post ProudDad

You educated me, that's the progressiveness I call real democracy.
That's the kind of thing I assumed the Democrats were for, but you know what they say (ass-u-me).

[Beelzebud]

77. She was on the supreme court?

I love how the Nader haters forget that the supreme court handed the election to Bush.

As far as I can see, neither Nader, nor anyone that voted for him, was on that court.

[lateo]

78. And the democrats helped get Bush elected by...

putting Joe LIEberman on Gore's ticket.

[Beelzebud]

79. Thank you. How quickly they forget...

[Zandor]

84. You said it was the Supreme Court

Now it's Lieberman.

[Beelzebud]

85. Lieberman was the reason many chose to vote for Nader.

The supreme court stole the election for Bush. Those aren't mutually exclusive facts.

I'm not changing my story at all, you're just being obtuse...

[Zandor]

80. Lieberman lost the election?

How so?

[Beelzebud]

83. Ivins and Nader were on the supreme court?

How so?

[Zandor]

86. The Greens made it close enough to steal

Both they and the Supremes were needed to ensure Bush got it.

That doesn't excuse the Greens, Ivins, or anyone that didn't vote Gore. Even if Gore had lost 80-20, they have nothing to bitch about in regard to Bush taking office.

[lateo]

89. A 5 year old on LSD should have been able to beat Bush.

You want to blame someone? Blame the media and the Democratic party for not supporting Gore fully and for putting Lieberman on his ticket. I mean, for crying out loud, Joe Lieberman? Do you even remember the Vice-Presidential debates? Joe spent most of it on his knees in front of Cheney.

[ProudDad]

110. The DEMOCRATS (and DLC) made it close enough to steal

Your attempt at revisionism notwithstanding...

[Zandor]

115. So Gore wasn't good enough for you

How's that Bush presidency working out?

[D23MIURG23]

186. Just think: if only the DLC had asked bush to run as a Democrat we could have won!

Winning is good! yay!


(not to deride Gore at all, he is my candidate of choice this year)

[iaviate1]

184. That'll teach ya to put in Republican-lite candidates.

Or so you'd think.

[lateo]

87. Did I say he lost the election?

No, I didn't. I said he helped lose the election. Are you really going to sit there and defend Joementum? Really?

[Zandor]

93. Lieberman 2000 wasn't Lieberman now

I don't think there was nearly as much discontent with him at that time as you're recalling.

[HughBeaumont]

98. You need to listen to "If You Like Tipper, You'll Love... " by Jello Biafra.

Taped before the 2000 election, it gives a rundown of Lieberman's less-than-even-moderate views on religion, music censorship, "bridge building" no matter if it's wrong or not, etc. Joe was ALWAYS a dick, make no mistake about it.

Choosing him as a running mate to escape the Specter of Monica rather than play to the positives of the Clinton presidency was the worst thing he could have done in a campaign.

[ProudDad]

111. THERE SURE AS HELL WAS

Among the MAJOR reasons I voted for Ralph Nader were Gore, DLC and fucking lie-berman...

[Ignis]

103. YOU are questioning Molly's progressive cred?

That's one of the most ridiculous things I've seen on DU, even back in 2000/01 when the Nader-bashing was on in force.

Have you read ANY of her books or articles? Do you realize that she's almost single-handedly responsible for bringing to light (such as it is in the MSM) Dumbya's history as Governor in Texas?

:banghead:

[Zandor]

114. I'm questioning her judgment

A vote for Nader was a vote of support for the Green party as opposed to Democrats. That's misguided at best, delusional at worst.

[Ignis]

119. But that's not what you said.

She helped get Bush elected <...> by supporting Nader.

How did Molly's vote for Nader in 2000 change Texas' electoral votes from Gore to Bush?

[Zandor]

121. A single vote wouldn't have swung Florida, either

Her support was wasted on Greens and Nader, instead of going to Democrats and Gore. She helped, she didn't do it singlehandedly.

Now we have Bush.

[Ignis]

130. So spell it out for us. How is she responsible for Bush 2000? (nt)

[Zandor]

131. Aided and abetted n/t

[Ignis]

134. That's not spelling it out; that's your typical SEAGULL post style.

You fly in, squawk loudly, drop a load, and fly on. Most of us at DU aren't buying it, which is why you're getting so much "special" attention.

Pretend it's a geometry proof. Spell out exactly how Molly Ivins casting ONE vote for Nader in 2000 changed the electoral votes in TEXAS and put us Bush in the White House.

:wtf:

You made the accusation, now it's time to back it up.

[Zandor]

136. Your premise is flawed

I never said that.

Give me a quote, an exact quote of mine, and I'll back it up.

[Ignis]

137. Try 5 posts up the sub-thread, post #119.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1963759&mesg_id=1967545

[Zandor]

138. "She helped get Bush elected by supporting Nader."

That's what you're so concerned about?

She did. She voted Green. I never said she singlehandedly swung Texas or the election.

[Ignis]

142. And you're still not spelling it out.

1. She voted in Texas, which Bush won handily in 2000.
2. Her vote was for Nader, rather than Gore.
3. Her vote for Nader could not possibly have changed TX electoral votes.

Given the above, how did she "help get Bush elected" as you claimed above? I've asked you several times now to spell it out, and you're either obstinately refusing, backpedaling, or just being coy.

If you feel so strongly that Molly Ivins (of all people) is a traitor to Democratic causes, please explain to us precisely why and how this is so. I'm sure there are many Democrats here at DU who would be very interested in your explanation.

[Zandor]

143. I've explained it in language a child can understand

She helped Bush by voting Green.

It doesn't matter what state she lived in. No single voter can sway a state or election. By your reasoning, no voter helped Bush get elected, because their single vote didn't decide the election.

Tell me, how close does a state have to be before a vote can qualify as actually helping someone?

[Ignis]

147. "A, B, ... therefore Z" is not spelling it out. Try harder.

How did Molly Ivins' voting in Texas for Nader in 2000 help elect Bush? What exactly about her action of voting for Nader in Texas in 2000 did so?

The fallacy of the excluded middle is not your friend, and it doesn't fly here at DU.

[walldude]

161. The only people who helped Gore lose are the Clintons

Read this and tell me it doesn't ring true and tell me it doesn't explain why Gore made certain stupid moves during the campaign.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/11/clinton200711?currentPage=1

Maybe I can explain this in language you can understand. Gore made some really stupid moves during the campaign causing many like Molly to go to the green party as an alternative. To blame them (and I'm one of them, I voted for Nader in 2000) for the situation we are in today is ludicrous.

[Zandor]

177. Of course Gore made mistakes

But anyone that voted Green still helped elect Bush.

[Ignis]

180. How, exactly? (nt)

[uppityperson]

191. oh bullshit.

First: voting in a state where the count was swung so far to Gore or to mrbush, voting 3rd party did not help elect Bush.

Secondly, from reading your usual stuff here, I guess you believe there should only ever be 2 parties.

OK, your turn for a 1 liner not directly explaining or discussing in depth.

[FedUp_Queer]

152. The fact is...

Let's be honest here...Nader did not cost Gore the election. Gore cost Gore the election by not running a good campaign (he lost Tennessee and Arkansas for God's sake). It is dark day in America when ANYONE says that a person shouldn't run for president because that person will take votes away from someone else. Gore should NEVER have been in a position in the first place. If he had fought back hard against the L'il Shrub and revealed him to be the dunderheaded coke fiend that he is, we wouldn't be here. I love Gore, but he f*cked up.

[ChiciB1]

160. No Gore Won... I Live In Florida & You Will NEVER Convince Me Of

anything else! I watched the county by country return, and THAT Butterfly ballot was the CLINCHER

[FedUp_Queer]

163. Fine...

Gore won. I agree. The point is that Nader was not the reason. Gore should have beaten Bush so handily Florida shouldn't have mattered.

[ChiciB1]

168. Even Some On Supreme Court Said It Was A Miscarriage Of Justice

when they HAD to DECIDE the outcome! Don't FORGET JEBBY!

[frylock]

82. there are psychos on both sides of the aisle

[Lydia Leftcoast]

148. If she voted for Nader it made no difference, because Texas went

overwhelmingly Republicanite anyway.

[MyNameGoesHere]

38. seems she did and justified it by

saying in Texas it was a moot point. That seems to have worked out well for all those that voted non-democrat.

[NavyDavy]

42. hear hear!!!

[Zandor]

67. So Bush if no different than Gore? n/t

[MyNameGoesHere]

70. not sure what you want me to reply to.

I just can't seem to see where i compared Bush to Gore. I just stated the obvious but maybe i should have put up the sarcasm sign for people who need that kind of prodding.

[Didereaux]

45. Molly's choices sometimes were bad, but she had one thing in abundance...

Humanity! She had more humanity in that not so small little finger, than all the politicians today combined.

Never forgave her for her support of Nader, but also never lost an ounce of respect for her integrity. Not a bad legacy, to leave behind I think.

An honorable human being indeed.

[NoPasaran]

47. At the risk of being flamed

Molly isn't supporting anyone this year.

[Totally Committed]

51. Me neither, Molly!

"Do not sit there cowering and pretending the only way to win is as Republican-lite. If the Washington-based party can't get up and fight, we'll find someone who can."

-- Molly Ivins

:thumbsup:


ETA:





TC

[ecstatic]

52. Whoa... this isn't right. We don't know what she'd be saying if she was still

alive. She may have meant that she wouldn't support Clinton in the primaries, but would do so in the GE. So don't use her previous words to derail Dem candidates.

[onehandle]

55. Exactly. nt

[Bluebear]

57. Begging your pardon, her writings should die with her?

"She may have meant that she wouldn't support Clinton in the primaries, but would do so in the GE." - - well, that's how I interpret it too, so please don't infer that I am "derailing Dem candidates".

[AtomicKitten]

53. Molly was always a delightful straight-shooter.

I miss her smiling face.

[Zandor]

58. What a load of shit

Some folks better take a check on their candidate's vote on the IWR.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

59. Mine didn't vote for the IWR. eom

[Zandor]

68. Fair enough

But I see a lot of knashing of teeth about Hillary's IWR vote and later distancing herself from it, when darlings of the moment like Biden are doing the same.

[Exultant Democracy]

92. What planet are you from 1% Biden 'darling of the moment' ???

[Bluebear]

63. Molly Ivins writings were not a "LOAD OF SHIT". You think you're Hemingway all of a sudden?

[Zandor]

66. Okay, this one is a piece of shit

She says she can't vote for Hillary because of her unclear position on Iraq, among other things.

If that's based on the IWR and her later repudiation of it, you can put most Democratic candidates in that box and write them off, too.

[frylock]

97. her "repudiation" was that she was misled..

she has yet to take responsibility for her vote, nor has she clearly stated as to whether she read the entire report prior to her yea vote. The only shit around here are your posts.

[Zandor]

118. The same as other Democrats

Misled, Bush misused the authority, etc. The remark about reading the entire report is a right wing talking point adopted by some of her opponents in her own party.

[frylock]

123. i notice you have a tendancy to draw the "right wing talking point" card an awful lot..

please refer me to the right wing talking heads who discuss her vote on IWR, because they typically don't call out who voted in favor of that turd, considering all the repubs supported it.

[Zandor]

126. "please refer me to the right wing talking heads who discuss her vote on IWR"

Are you seriously suggesting the Right hasn't used that against her?

Google is your friend.

[frylock]

170. then by all means, post links..

the onus is on YOU to PROVE that right wing talking heads are calling Clinton out for the things they LIKE about her.

[uppityperson]

192. Same old style here, make a provacative statement & refuse to show proof.

Attack instead "are you saying opposite of me?" rather than giving proof.

[izzybeans]

172. Misled? the wife of a former President with access to daily intelligence briefings

misled? That's the biggest lie of them all.

She knew better than anybody what was at stake and what the evidence was.

[King Coal]

105. Hey! Be nice Bluebear. Settle down and be nice.

[burythehatchet]

132. these arguments are very difficult to follow when

you're arguing with Ignored. :)

[wicket]

60. You and me both, Bluebear

:hug:

:cry:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

61. Thank you for posting this Bluebear. I miss the beautiful sanity of Molly's voice.

[Raffi Ella]

62. Molly was one of a kind.I miss her too.

In her death these words bring a smile instead of the usual anger I feel when I see these threads against Hillary.

I do understand where she(and some D.U.er's) are coming from but the time is short and the stakes are too high to play around with our Democracy like Molly and some D.U.er's are suggesting.

The Democratic Party isn't perfect by any means but it is my Party.I will work to improve it where it needs to be improved but I will never work against it.

[Bluebear]

65. Cheers, etienne.

I am a yellow dog Democrat and of course will pull that lever no matter who the nominee is. Molly is exhorting us to keep looking at everybody from beyond, maybe even to inspire Hillary to keep fostering more progressive ideals.

[Raffi Ella]

69. Yes,I can feel that from her words posted here

- that's why I smiled.I didn't always agree with her but damn was I glad she was on my side.

Cheers to you too bluebear.And to Molly,one helluva a lady by any standard.

[Dinger]

71. I Agree Completely, And I Wonder How Many More "Top 3 Only" CAMPAIGN Events We Will Have?

That is all.

[Myrina]

88. AMEN!

:applause: :patriot:

[Exultant Democracy]

90. Kick for Hill's Kyl/ Lieberman vote.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

94. AMEN, MOLLY!

Couldn't have said it better myself. :applause:

[mistertrickster]

95. Yup. We can only hope that sitting next to God, she can do something for our country

that has badly lost its way--that means Obama or Edwards as our nominee or better yet, AL GORE.

My second hope is that Hillary is just running as a centrist to get through the general election and that she'll govern like the progressive she was once.

[Mountainman]

96. And? There are a lot of people not supporting Hillary. One more won't hurt her.

You'd think Hillary was the Repub candidate.

[Tom Joad]

101. You got that a bit wrong. Where is the "Lite" part? eom

[trixr4neoconkids]

106. I Will Never Support Hillary

If Hillary Clinton wins the Democratic Party nomination, I will give all of my money and volunteering spirit to a third-party progressive candidate. End of story. I don't care if that candidate represents the Green Party, The Socialist Workers Party etc. And I don't care if a left-leaning candidate takes away potential votes from Hillary on Election Day in 2008. If that means a psychotic, war-monger Rudy Giuliani or a brain-dead Mitt Romney wins the Presidency...so be it!!!!!

I voted for Ralph Nader in 2000 and I have ZERO regrets!

[GreenTea]

107. I'm 100% with Molly - Bless her -- I will vote Dem up & down the ballot except

for president if it's corporate moderate Hillary....I told myself after the 2004 election - After a lifetime (Dem) of doing so, no more will I vote the "lesser of two evils"....I'll vote Green, another third party or simply not for prez but for everything else....That's a promise I will keep!

[iburl]

109. Molly lived in Texas

So, don't be so sure she would ever have voted for Hillary. Remember that as a left winger in Texas, we get the option of voting our hearts, knowing that the Republican nominee will get all the electoral votes no matter what we do. Molly spent her whole life fighting against the kind of sleazy, lying, triangulating, corporate-owned and operated politicians that Hillary so perfectly embodies.

[ProudDad]

112. Hillary represents BUSINESS as usual...

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/index.asp

Follow the money.

As far as our economic health, Health Care and the Commons, it would be another DISASTER, of nearly the same proportion as bush, to elect hillary...


On Edit: I too will NEVER support hillary for President. No how, no way...

[NotGivingUp]

113. I'm with you Molly. There is NO WAY that Hillary is getting my vote. n/t

[Maryland Liberal]

169. I agree 100%

You go Molly!

[Kurovski]

117. I've often thought of this article as I read posts about Clinton here at DU.

Thanks, Bluebear. K&R.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

120. I almost always agreed with Molly. Still do.

"A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." Thomas Paine

[Dukkha]

125. Hillary = 4 more years

same shit different name. no thank you.

[BenDavid]

129. Well, get used to saying President

Clinton.....and one other thing, HRC's strong lead with Democratic female voters has undermined the media myth that women might be toughest on a Clinton candidacy. The ones which feel the strongest against HRC are a few women pundits, like the late Molly Ivins and Arianna Huffington and of course Maureen Dowd.
"Arianna completely misrepresents Hillary's position as well as MAureen Dowd, and As always, Arianna fails to list any FACTS about the reasons she hates her. As always, Arianna comes with the snide remarks and the Dowd-like disgust, but never are there any facts - it's always Arianna's "impressions" of her. Besides, if Hillary came out and said, "I made a mistake with my Iraq vote.
It was stupid of me, I should've known better and I apologize for that," does anyone think Arianna or Maureen would then LIKE Hillary? Hell now - she'd just go to the next reason on the list why she hates her. And, ...has Arianna or Maureen ever voted for a Democrat for president? Can somebody get that question to her?" (Bart)

Ben David

[Maribelle]

133. The "Terri Schiavo" case never should have been politicized in the first place.

Bashing Hillary for this plays right into the wingnuts hands. Hillary was absolutely correct in allowing the medical experts give their opinions to the courts and having the courts rule.

[mmonk]

135. I think all those critiquing and reinterpreting Molly's words

should desist and let them stay as she wrote them with all her intent as to her meaning.

[Maribelle]

139. Hillary voted no on recommending a constitutional ban on flag desecration.

Hillary couldn't have been clearer.

The OP indicating Hillary was pandering on flag-burning was a misconception, to be kind.

[Bluebear]

141. International Herald Trib Opinion: Hilary Clinton, pandering

Hillary Clinton is co-sponsoring a bill to criminalize the burning of the American flag. Her supporters would characterize this as an attempt to find a middle way between those who believe that flag-burning is constitutionally protected free speech and those who want to ban it, even if it takes a constitutional amendment. Unfortunately, it looks to us more like a simple attempt to have it both ways.

Clinton says she opposes a constitutional amendment to outlaw flag-burning. In 1989, the Supreme Court ruled that flag-burning was protected by the First Amendment. But her bill is clearly intended to put the issue back before the current, more conservative, Supreme Court in hopes of getting a turnaround.

It's hard to see this as anything but pandering - there certainly isn't any urgent need to resolve the issue. Flag-burning hasn't been in fashion since college students used slide rules in math class.

The bill attempts to equate flag-burning with cross-burning, which the Supreme Court, in a sensible and carefully considered 2003 decision, said could be prosecuted under certain circumstances as a violation of civil rights law. It's a ridiculous comparison. Burning a cross is a unique act because of its inextricable connection to the Ku Klux Klan and to anti-black violence and intimidation.

There's no question that many veterans - and, indeed, most Americans - feel deeply offended by the sight of protesters burning the flag. But the whole point of the First Amendment is to protect expressions of political opinion that a majority of Americans find disturbing or unacceptable. As a lawyer, the senator presumably already knows that.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/12/07/opinion/edclinton.php

[walldude]

150. The old flag burning amendment huh.. We need an amendment

to stop the 3 fucking people in America who burned flags last year? Could we find anything less important to vote on? Wait... don't answer that.

[BlooInBloo]

140. "That is the center, you fools." - What a dear lady.

[walldude]

145. Wow, so after reading this entire thread I see it's still all Molly's

fault that Gore lost. I posted this link upthread but I think it deserves another shot. Those of you who think that Gore lost because of Nader ought to read it. It explains much about some of the questionable decisions Gore made during the campaign. Decisions that cost him votes including mine. And it had nothing to do with Molly Ivins or Ralph Nader.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/11/clinton200711?currentPage=1

While I wait for the deniers to come back and tell me the article I posted is bullshit I will relate my favorite Molly quote. After a vote passed in Texas to make gay sex illegal the two legislators who introduced the bill shook hands, Molly, without missing a beat said "That's the last time a prick will touch an asshole in this state" :rofl: :rofl:

[azmesa207]

153. Molly Irvin's

wont vote for Hillary that should be no surprise to anybody
she been a Clinton Hater for ever she no Democrat she just
plays one on TV . With Democrats like her you just as well
concede the election and vote republican because that what
she wants

[walldude]

159. Uh.. she can't vote for anyone she's dead. And she's not a hater

she just calls it like she sees it. Try reading this:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/11/clinton200711?currentPage=1

[frylock]

173. with democrats like the current bunch of democrats we have now..

there's really no need to pull the lever for a "republican."

[saracat]

174. It is Ivins and you don't know much about Molly to say such a thing!

[charlie]

175. Now, that's funny

Molly probably wasted more ink defending Bill than anyone else in the entire decade of the nineties. She was often alone when the rest of the beltway idiots pretended he was radioactive. All this, while he exasperated the daylights out of her time and again.

Excoriating her for shit you've made up on the spot is really weird, dude.

[Bluebear]

190. The Late Great "Molly Irvin"

:eyes:

[ChiciB1]

155. I Was Fortunate Enough To Meet Molly Personally My Have My Picture

taken with her. She always spoke her mind and I always respected her opinions. I SO WISH she were here to day to shout this LOUD & CLEAR!

I got a donation letter today from Al Gore and had to write back and decline any donation because I'm so very sick of this Hillary CORONATION! It's just a slap in the face to me! A friend called me and said that one of the National News stations said since she has such a resounding lead this far out that it's a done deal and that they said that no candidate with this much support has EVER lost the nomination except for one or two of many many candidates!

I can't even watch ANY of the news these days, only KO! I'm really glad that I have Dish Network and can watch alternative shows.

I'm TRULY SORRY that as a Democrat it seems that "the powers that be" have basically "decided" for me just WHO the nominee will be. It must be such a SLAP IN THE FACE to our other candidates who are running. Moreover, it's seems that the only REAL UNITY I see from the Democratic Party is how very transparent they have become to keep the status quo! Money, Corporations & Lobbyist have done enough damage and yet.... here we go again!

I feel DEFEATED already, before ONE VOTE has been cast! 28 years of having ONLY TWO families run a country founded on the premise of Democracy, DOES NOT seem like ANY kind of Democracy I've ever known!

On the plus side, at least I won't have to stand out in the "hot Florida sun" holding signs or doing any other grunt work this time around... I WILL NOT work for her. Will I vote for her in the end?? I really wish I knew, and I say that with a VERY HEAVY HEART! Generally it's not a hard question to answer, but since she has SO MUCH support, and the Repukes aren't doing all that well I'll have to wait to see if ANY Repuke is close to her. If it's tight (which I don't think it will be) I "may" hold my nose and do it, but if not... I'm sitting it out!

It's ALL HILLARY, and I don't think I'll have to make that decision. It IS such a travesty to me!

[Hardrada]

164. I empathize entirely. We will have to put up with the Medusas like Hillary

and the Caligulas like the repugs until our empire falls which it will probably do under any prez once we run out of oil.

[ooglymoogly]

162. Hill is between A-rok and A!-PEK.

[happygoluckytoyou]

167. THANK GOD FOR THE GOP

HIP HIP HOORAY...
NOMINATE CLINTON AND THE GOP WINS...

AS ALWAYS... AND ONCE AGAIN...


THE GOP UNITES FOR ELECTIONS.... AND DIVIDES THE SPOILS
THE DEMOCRATS DIVIDE FOR ELECTIONS.... AND DIVIDES NOTHING


ELECT WHICHEVER DEMOCRAT WINS THE NOMINATION.....
---------------SHIFT ALL POLITICS TO THE LEFT
------------------------AND THEN PROTEST WHEN H.C. DOESN'T DO WHAT YOU WANT


PACK OF LOSER LEFT-SIDED MORONS WHO COULDN'T WIN AN ELECTION IF THEY GOT THE MOST VOTES

[Turn CO Blue]

178. Rocking post, BB!

[HughMoran]

181. I was like "what? she speaks from the othert side?"

Such a shame she is gone :(

[frog92969]

182. I wont support the big three, period!

But especially Clinton.
If Kucinich or Gravel go Independent I'll meet them there, if not I'll write in Kucinich. If Biden, Dodd, or Richardson get it I might hold my nose and jump in, I might not.

If a Rethug gets it that would be a tragedy, but I REFUSE to encourage the tripe they're pushing.

[Baby Snooks]

185. What Molly was really saying...

Molly Ivins was not saying sit back and just support whoever the Democratic candidate is. She was saying get out and vote in the primary. You have to vote for the best Democrat in the primary instead of just saying you will vote for whoever wins the nomnination. That is not banging the pots and pans. Those pots and pans are her legacy.

Everyone should vote in the primary and vote for the candidate who is banging the pots and pans the loudest in protest of this administration and the Republican Party instead of banging them in unison with this administration and the Republican Party and hoping no one notices.

"Works well with Republicans" just doesn't work. And if Molly were still here she probably would say just that. We need to get rid of them. Not work with them.