I'm having a late night surreal moment - has the Dem Party lost its FUCKING MIND?

[RiverStone]

Last May the Senate voted 100+ Billion $$$ for Shrub's immoral and reckless war by a vote of 80 to 14.

Today that same Senate voted 150+ Billion $$$ more for Shrub's reckless and immoral war by a vote of 92 to 3.

I'm particularly stunned by the following YEA voters:

Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Hagel (R-NE)
Harkin (D-IA)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Murray (D-WA)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Schumer (D-NY)
Snowe (R-ME)
Webb (D-VA)
Wyden (D-OR

On top of that, the most recent New York Times/CBS News Poll finds that 95% of Americans DO NOT trust BushCo to resolve the war.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/10/washington/10poll.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin


So if I can fathom this through my surreal haze, today the Senate voted by a 92% margin to give the BushCo Administration more war $$$. That's the same Administration that 95% of Americans feel is unable to end (said war)! :shrug:

WHAT THE FUCK!!!!

Is the only bastion of logic remaining in the Democratic Party here on DU? Has the Party establishment utterly left us in the dirt?

[terisan]

1. Washington seems determined to destroy our country. nt

[RiverStone]

5. Oh and another thing....!!!! The NOT VOTING folk are still accountable!

Can anybody provide a rational explanation what/who the following Dems were pandering to by NOT VOTING at all? GUESS: Their future constituents?

Do they think NOT VOTING provides an out? :think:

Sorry, their hands are just as dirty as the YEA voters!

Biden (D-DE)
Clinton (D-NY)
Dodd (D-CT)
McCain (R-AZ)
Obama (D-IL

BIG Kudos to Feingold and Byrd - the ONLY Dems to vote against this bullshit! :applause:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00359

And even a rethug - Coburn voted NEY - does he deserve kudos or did he vote NEY because he wanted more $$$? I just don't know the dude.

[DJKDJKDJK]

19. The world is over.

The Illuminati have obviously won if they've brainwashed you all into thinking Obama, Clinton and Edwards are the best candidates.

The very future of mankind rides on this election...it's like the world is made of zombies. Even people who get it just don't care. The cold day in hell has arrived.

[RiverStone]

22. what?

...brainwashed you all into thinking Obama, Clinton and Edwards are the best candidates.

How'd ya get that from my post dissing the NOT voters???

I certainly don't give those three the "best" nod over DK (or Al Gore or Wes Clark or Bill Richardson).

My brain is going to sleep - and I think your brain misinterpreted my post.




peace~ :)

[bobbolink]

62. What did Salazar do? Not on either of your lists.

He's such an ass, I would expect him to not only vote for the $$$, but to start printing it up...

[lovuian]

2. I think your realizing that we are going to War and pay and pay

and pay and its Dems and Repubs that freakin support it

[gateley]

3. I always check to see how Boxer, Kennedy and Kerry vote and if they all vote the

same -- as in this instance -- I trust it's the best option. They understand these issues far better than we can, so I leave it up to the people I trust. That's their J.O.B.

Edit to add it's never as cut and dry as it seems.

[KharmaTrain]

7. Withdrawl Vs. Retreat

As long as booosh holds the veto and 17 Repugnican Senators enable him, cutting off funding leaves those in harms way high and dry. I liked Obeys proposals to push taxes to pay for this thing and then timetables for additional funding...force boooosh to veto and stick his corrupt party with the consequences.

I want our troops home...but I want them home safely. Sadly, this won't happen until this regime is expelled and, as we see with many here who'd rather blame the Democrats rather than the Repugnicans for this mess, defunding just plays into the corporate media meme.

[RiverStone]

11. Sorry Kharma Train --- I don't buy your rational

Not anymore.

The DEMS are in the Majority - we may not have started it, we may not have lied our way into it (for oil, profit, power) ---

but WE OWN IT NOW. To quote Dennis who said it far better then I can - and he said this last May - it still applies:

Rep. Dennis Kucinich: Democratic Leadership Failing U.S. Citizenry on War

Well, you know, there’s a fundamental misperception about the path the Democrats should be taking. We shouldn’t be offering any legislation at all. We should just simply tell the President we’re not going to fund the war. And this idea about funding the war to help the troops is absurd. You want to help the troops, bring them home.

I offered a plan, HR 1234, that would provide for a plan that would bring the troops home, close the bases, end the occupation and reach out to the international community for an international peacekeeping and security force that would move in as our troops leave. But we can’t do that until we end the occupation. We can’t end the occupation until we stop funding the war. We simply do not have to have a bill, Amy. It’s just as simple as that.

<snip>

I want to make sure I’m being clear about this. I’m saying that it’s not necessary to have a bill, that the process depends on legislation to keep the war going. But there’s money in the pipeline right now to bring the troops home. We simply should tell the President we’re not going to fund the war, period. We don’t need legislation to do that. And the idea that somehow we need to fund the war to help the troops, again, it’s an absurd thought, and we need to start to reorient ourselves to getting out of Iraq. This administration isn’t going to do that, and frankly, the Democratic Congress is failing the American people at this moment.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/24/143225

[KharmaTrain]

17. Sorry, I Don't Own This War...Never Have

Someone once called this situation a shit sandwich. Yes, Democrats control the House, but not really the Senate and surely not the votes to override even the 60 votes to get an up or down vote. It sucks and frustrates me no end, but my biggest concern at this point is for the safety of our forces that are there and how to get them out without having them shooting their way out. There needs to be a detailed plan on how this happens, not some resolution that sounds good but lacks specifics. It took this country 4 years to get out of Vietnam and then look at how that ended up. Removing 150,000 troops, their equipment and thousands of support personell (not to mention the thousands of Iraqis who helped support us (sorry, they're our responsibility now) won't happen overnight...it needs to be done in an orderly fashion and with some sort of international support.

I never supported this war for profit and I am now working to outst a couple of local blue dogs who have enabled this mess so that can happen. Sorry, I don't own this...I'm stuck with it, you are, too.

Kucinich talks a good game, but has no walk behind the talk. What legislation has he helped enact? What support does he have to make his plans happen? Where are the specifics? We just tell 150,000 troops to hop on a plane and come home? At least Biden, who I also don't support, has both more experience in these matters and a plan.

This has and always will be a Repugnican war and a majority of Americans see it that way. I want a withdrawl, not a retreat that will be blamed on Democrats. If boooosh doesn't get the money to fund this thing one way, he'll get it another...and sadly, until he's ousted, our troops remain...defunding or not.

[RiverStone]

20. though without ever drawing a line in the sand

We do take ownership of this horrendous mess, more and more with each passing day. We can agree to disagree on that point.

You said:

It sucks and frustrates me no end, but my biggest concern at this point is for the safety of our forces that are there and how to get them out without having them shooting their way out. There needs to be a detailed plan on how this happens, not some resolution that sounds good but lacks specifics...

So then WHY could we not at least have tied a specific time-line to the funding? Make the war dollars contingent on Shrub agreeing to a withdrawal plan. Any plan other than fueling more tanks, guns, bombs, and sadly --- so tragically --- coffins. The Dem's could have at least done that; drawn a non-negotiable line in the sand.

The onus of responsibility to end the war sadly does fall on our shoulders more than the rethugs - why? Because we ARE the OPPOSITION PARTY to the pukes war games - or we used to be anyway. I simply can't see that we did a damn thing different than we did with the May vote, or the vote before that, or before that.....the $$$ keeps flowing and our children and Iraq's children remain in harm's way.

peace out~

(finally sleep prevails) :boring:

[KharmaTrain]

23. We Agree More Than We Disagree

Democrats, if they win the White House in '08 will then "own" this mess because then they will have the power of the Executive to end this thing. Hopefully, we'll also have more Progressive/Liberal Congresscritters and more Senators as well. At least that should be the goal.

I can't argue about how tepid beltway Democrats have been...stuck between sniping on both sides...and a corporate media who have cheerled this war for profit from the outset. Yes, I'm very dissapointed a bigger resistance hasn't been fought and those Democrats who are too easy to cave to the talking points and afraid of their own shadow have to go. I'll be putting my money and elbow grease to make that happen, however, I don't like the Democrats/Repugnican Pepsi/Coke meme...this is what Nader used in '00 and enabled boooosh to steal the election. The corporate media would love us to eat our own here while the perpetrators skate away.

No, this war doesn't fall on our shoulders more. We had zero say in anything for 4 years and to expect the world to turn on a dime is unrealistic. I want to play smart and look at a bigger picture.

Sadly, even with 60 votes in the Senate, that wouldn't be enough to override a veto...it's the WINOs who have the blood on their hands. It's our job to keep fighting and pushing back but to have plans, not just words.

Peace for you and yours as well...

[Toots]

39. Here is the problem on this particular bill as I see it

This wasn't just 150 billion for Iraq. It was a part of the Defense Bill. If they refuse to fund the Defense Dept while our soldiers are on the ground being shot at they would be in a world of hurt. If they could somehow seperate the funding they may have a chance to stop it but as it is now attached to the Defense bill they can't face the consequences..I have no answer for them not stopping the Iraq Supplemental funding bills... NONE

[bobbolink]

65. Democrats don't control the Senate because many of them vote with the Rs.

Simple as that.

[KharmaTrain]

67. Wrong...It's The Rs don't Vote With The People

Simple is aping corporate media taking points.

[bobbolink]

68. Oh, excuse me, I could have sworn I saw "D"'s after those names.

:crazy:

[KharmaTrain]

70. There Are 67 "D" Senators??

Without 67 votes, nothing goes forward...and boooosh and his enablers use this as their firewall and hope people like you blame the Democrats while Repugnicans like Coleman, Specter, Voinovich and others skate by. Just look at the SCHIP fiasco...there's not gonna be enough to override that veto...and that's the Democrat's fault. According to the corporate media that's how its being played.

Don't like the how things are then get involved in getting more Liberal/Progressive Democrats elected.

[bobbolink]

71. You are ever so right.... NO DEMS ARE EVER VOTING WITH THE R's.

We're so pure.

[Hydra]

84. Don't bother, Bobbo

It scares me that there are still cheerleaders for the choice of policy of or reps:

"We'll just keep giving W. what he wants, and make him own it. The Repubs can't win with that lead weight around their necks come election time"

There's just one problem with that- you're using our soldiers and our money ON A POLITICAL GAMBIT THAT HAS ALREADY FAILED!

[bobbolink]

101. You're right. It's kind alike talking to a wall, eh?

I'm old enough to remember the days when liberals talked and listened to each other, and looked inside themselves to see if part of the problem was *within*.

No more.... those days of self-examination are over... it's all the black hats against the white hats.

DEMS are perfect, donchaknow....

" you're using our soldiers and our money ON A POLITICAL GAMBIT THAT HAS ALREADY FAILED!"

I hope that is a metaphorical "you".... *I'm* certainly not using any soldiers!

Heh.. come to think of it.... I can imagine plenty of better uses for soldiers... :hi:

[Hydra]

111. Hehe

I was referring to the Dems in congress using our troops to get re-elected...sound like any other political party we know?

As to the black hats and white hats, I have a disturbing theory on that...and it's getting more evidence day by day.

Let's say the white hats are the ones calling for more dem support. What they are really supporting are more laws and regulations to "protect" us, and an Imperial America foreign policy. There's just one problem- no accountability at the top, therefore no protection is really offered.

Now lets say that the black hats are the ones griping about Congress(that would be me). In this case, we are the real "rule of law" people. That tends to be ignored by people that disagree with us. We want laws based on what the people need, not the Corps, and we want equal enforcement and protection under the law.

[gateley]

13. I have hope (do I ever learn?) that with Biden's plan - if it works as he hopes

and it actually is implement in our lifetime(!) -- will enable us to start bringing our our troops safely AND quickly.

I love your pronunciation of Bush's name, and I extra love your sig line! Congrats on your continuing success!

[RiverStone]

9. Then please, provide me with their...

Rational explanation when you hear it.

I can't fathom ANY reason to give Shrub another 150 billion dollar check, for his damn war based on lies.

We are heading into year 6 folks! How many generations will it take to pay off the debt? The war bill will be owed long, long after the architects of it are dead and gone.

More then the money, how many lives on all sides will be lost while we spend out the check?

[gateley]

12. Well I can't fathom any reason to give another wad of money to Bush, either.

I share your outrage, horror and disgust -- please believe me.

But my point is I don't know all THEY know. If it was such an obviously easy decision that it seems to us, they wouldn't have voted that way.

I can't provide their rationale, nor is it my responsibility to do so. You'd have to ask them. I'm guessing that no explanation on their parts would satisfy you or change your mind, and I'm guessing they wouldn't satisfy me or change my mind either. But whatever their reasons are, I especially trust these three people and acknowledge that there might -- just might - -be more to this than meets than I can understand.

That's all I was saying.

[RiverStone]

16. thats small comfort for soldiers that want to come home

I know we are on the same team gateley --- I'm way to sleepy to be argumentative --- but too damn pissed to go to sleep.

Your right, no explanation will suffice.

I'm the parent to 2 teenagers - what will this madness do to their world - what will The Dem complicity lead to? A draft? Dept that their great grandchildren will be paying off?

I simply believe THERE IS NO NEED TO KEEP SIGNING OVER THE WAR CHECK! Period.

Please see post 11. Dennis will explain....


peace~ :)

[gateley]

18. Peace back at you, bro! nt

[Virginia Dare]

43. It's small comfort to be sure..

but I hope that even they can see it wasn't the Democrats who put them there and it's not the Democrats who stand in the way of them coming home. I hope this situation destroys once and for all the cult like relationship between the military and the GOP, at least for the younger generation.

[gateley]

59. And may I just say - Amen. nt

[Raine]

10. I agree

no matter what I believe those 3 are looking after the best interests of this country and they know what they are doing.

[RiverStone]

14. Please tell me your being sarcastic....

I guess not.

They must be following in the same tradition....

[BB1]

21. oh come off it.

If they're all jumping in the water, would you?

Now you guys have a situation in which everey member of congress is as crooked as a cricket. The whole world knows it doesn't matter whether you vote repub of dem. You're screwed both ways.

There's one remedy left, one option open: total and immediate revolution.
- You want the troops back? Go get 'em.
- You want accountability? Go get it.
- You want Bush out? Go get him out.

You guys are on your own. The rest of the world can't help - besides, if they could - they're way to busy ROFLTAO at the display of phoney democracy.

Reverse laws. Get the pot-smoker out of jail, put the Enron-clan in it.

[AdHocSolver]

24. Their viewpoint is their own political careers, not the fate of the country.

I disagree with your comment that it is never as cut and dried as it seems. More often than not, politicians pile nuance upon nuance to confuse the issues, rather than enlighten.

The Democrats could have gotten away with placing a timetable for withdrawal in the funding bill. You know Bush would veto it, and make the Republicans look bad. The Democrats would then show the public that they tried to influence Bush, and not appear as craven as they did by not even trying.

Most of the money in the bill they passed is probably going to Halliburton and Blackwater, rather than our troops, anyway. A week or two delay wouldn't affect our troops in any event. Even putting up a half-hearted attempt to pushback against Bush/Cheney would bolster support, not only among Democrats, but would give hope to moderate Republicans and independants, and make them more willing to support Democrats in elections.

The Democrats who caved didn't do so because they have some secret knowledge or expertise that we lack. They did so because they lack the leadership to understand what is politically feasible and the spine to do it.

[RiverStone]

54. Stop making so much sense!

Even putting up a half-hearted attempt to pushback against Bush/Cheney would bolster support, not only among Democrats, but would give hope to moderate Republicans and independants, and make them more willing to support Democrats in elections.

Yep AdHocSolver, I think ya summed it quite well. Your post reflect wisdom so damn obvious that I truly am mystified why folks HERE get it, but those on The Hill seem oblivious???

I'd hate to think that those elected to serve have become either so distant, cynical, or arrogant that they can't hear the cries and shouts from We The People that elected them.

Some on this thread say without knowing why --- "that they must of had our best interests in mind". I say they have NONE of our interests in mind on this insane war. I thought they they worked for us; now I think they simply work for themselves. I cannot draw a conclusion more optimistic then that.

[Moochy]

104. Some DU'ers have different goals when visiting DU

Getting their favorite pol elected, vs. full, open debate of the issues on their merits.
If a candidate's position is indefensible, the easiest solution for some is to flame those topics and get topics shut down.

[truedelphi]

77. usually I would be saying what you are saying

But I cannot recall Barbara Boxer doing anything but oppose this war!

There has gotta be something that I am not getting. Can't say what it is.

[Seabiscuit]

78. Good Germans left it up to the people they trusted too. And look what happened to them.

[Moochy]

103. How does transparency and public oversight

affect your level of trust in your elected officials? Is it possible that they are not acting in your best interest? How would you know?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

4. their too afraid of criticism from the republican noise machine,

not supporting the troops and all that jazz,

[Pachamama]

6. But didn't you hear? Nancy Pelosi said its the Republican Congress's War!

:eyes:

Yes, they have lost their minds and I have been just feeling sick all day....I have literally lost all faith that the Dems will change anything....

[LibertyorDeath]

8. RiverStone

OIL!!!!!

[gateley]

15. Well yeah, there IS that... nt

[Peace Patriot]

25. I asked the same question when I found out that most Democratic Party

office holders and leaders enthusiastically supported converting our vote counting system to electronic machines run on 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code--code so secret that not even our secretaries of state are permitted to review it--owned and controlled by very rightwing Bushite corporations, with virtually no audit/recount controls. Are they fucking crazy? --I asked myself.

How could they not only NOT warn the voters about this, but actively support it, and vote for it, and enforce a code of silence about its fraudulent results?

So, I'm not so shocked about them repeatedly escalating the war--in the teeth of 70% opposition among the American people. My shock is older than this. It happened in the 2004-2005 period. And so now, nothing they would do would surprise me. They sold us out way back in 2002, with the "Help America Vote Act" (e-voting with no audit/recount controls), which occurred in the same month as the Iraq War Resolution (October 2002), and is closely related to it. The IWR guaranteed unjust war; HAVA provided the means of shoving the unjust war down the throats of the American people, 56% of whom have opposed it from the beginning (Feb. '03)--a significant majority--now at a staggering, epochal 70%. It was to defeat that great peace-minded American majority--which our political establishment knew would only grow bigger--that non-transparent vote counting by rightwing corporations was devised, and fast-tracked across the country, in time for the 2004 (s)election, with $3.9 billion in boondoggle funding from the Anthrax Congress.

Virtually none of the traitors...er, representatives...in Congress can prove that they were actually elected. THEY, TOO, are (s)elected in what are, essentially, not elections. 'TRADE SECRET' vote counting is tyranny.

And until we understand this--and restore transparent vote counting--nothing is going to change. I think it can still be done at the state/local level, and will likely be a long hard fight in multiple jurisdictions, but it could also snowball as a movement, which it is showing some signs of doing.

Transparent vote counting--vote counting that everyone can see and understand--is a no-brainer. When you bring it to consciousness--your own, or others'--it causes you to wake up, suddenly. Ah, yes, bottom line of democracy! Hm-m. We don't even have this bottom line condition of democracy any more? Yikes! That must be where we have to start, to get our democracy back.

Funny, how our corporate media fuzzed brains can black-hole a thing that is so obvious. You have to dig deep to find it--your memory of what voting is about, and how you know that certain people were elected and others were not, and how admirable it all is--this peaceful change of power, with no shots fired--and how everybody being able to see the votes counted is the basis of it, the bottom line. If you CAN'T see the votes counted, then how do you know? You don't. And if private corporations, with close ties to rightwing causes and the Bush Junta are counting all the votes inside "black boxes" with VERY SECRET CODE, and in many cases, with no paper ballot at all--nothing to recount--or, in the best states, a lousy, sticking 1% audit--then you can be damned sure that SOMETHING FISHY IS GOING ON.

I have an intelligent, well-informed friend, to whom I explained the facts of our vote counting system, after I learned them, and you know what she said? She said, "But the Democrats wouldn't let that happen, would they?"

Of course, the heart of the matter is not what they WOULD do--it's what they DID do. They let the fascist coup of non-transparent vote counting happen, just as they are letting this horrible was continue to happen--and looking all innocent, and saying "we don't have enough votes in Congress to not vote for the war and fascism."

Funny how their "not having enough votes" in Congress followed upon "trade secret" vote counting fast-tracked all over the country.

God, I'm beginning to hate even the best of them. And I don't like this emotion. It's a wasted emotion, for one thing. Put it aside. They're just people, who every day get dipped in the burning acid of DC corruption. What we need to think about is POWER. What is our power over these corrupt bastards? Our vote. That's about the only real power we have. And they've taken it away. So we MUST get it back.

"Trade secret" vote counting is not the only thing wrong with our election system. But it is the 'coup de grace'--the final blow to our system. It makes reform impossible. We MUST change this, and restore transparent vote counting--however we can--or our democracy is over.

"The Democrats wouldn't let that happen, would they?" It's deeply disturbing, but we must face that that is exactly what they did. They have been active participants in destroying our right to vote.

I admire protesters very much--especially anti-war protesters--and I've done my share of active street protest over my long life. But I have to say that that kind of protest, right now--although it's good as moral witness, and to hearten people, to help them not feel alone, and to educate people--is futile, as to changing things. It cannot change things--and will not change things--without the power of the vote to back it up.

So if you want to protest somewhere, protest at your local county registrar. Ordinary people still have potential influence in local venues. Public pressure can work at that level. We have to restore transparent vote counting one local venue at a time. We're back at square one, as to democracy. We have to start all over. But I know we can do it. Look at this amazing resistance, among the American people, to the relentless war propaganda! We can do it! We just have to help people understand WHAT'S WRONG. THIS is what's wrong. They are not counting all our votes.

[RiverStone]

50. great post - thanks!

God, I'm beginning to hate even the best of them. And I don't like this emotion. It's a wasted emotion, for one thing. Put it aside. They're just people, who every day get dipped in the burning acid of DC corruption. What we need to think about is POWER. What is our power over these corrupt bastards? Our vote. That's about the only real power we have. And they've taken it away. So we MUST get it back.

Well said Peace Patriot; and YES, YES, I too don't like all this wasted emotion. When I did my nightly DU check in and read that the vote was 92-3, it felt as if I no longer had a clue what party I belonged to anymore - as if the DEM's just rolled up and moved out in the middle of the night. If those on The Hill really felt that our votes could lead to their unemployment, maybe things would be different.

I'm afraid the seduction of power has already made em fat & lazy. They don't fear or pay attention to We The People per all the promises (to end the war) that got many elected in 06.

I'm still with the DEMS, but are they with me? Or us? I don't know where else to go...

[bbgrunt]

66. you are so right peace patriot.

[Kaleko]

99. Word! You nailed it, Peace

[Autumn Colors]

26. I'm still convinced that their families are being threatened (nm)

[xchrom]

27. democrats at large are sharing your unease.

polls are showing a real discomfort with current democratic leadership.

interesting times.

[Disturbed]

28. The Dem Leaders want to maintain the US Occupation.

I have been saying this for a few months. They want to keep the Fiasco going for their benefit of the '08 Elections & also want that Oil Deal to be finalized. The MIC & the Multi-Corps control them all. The majority of Dems don't give a rat's ass what the citizens want. They are also banking on Dems to vote for them no matter how betrayed they feel.

[xchrom]

29. in the last twenty or so years -- americans have developed the habit

of not voting -- some out of apathy and no sense of contributing to society -- and some out of alienation.

this could happen in 08 should these feelings become intractable about the 08 election.

[bobbolink]

112. The alienation factor is becoming huge...

and when it keeps people away in '08, there's going to be some here who will want lynching parties.

Or, we could take our heads out of the sand, and start LISTENING to people. What a concept...

[RiverStone]

56. There was a time that I could never believe that to be true...

They are also banking on Dems to vote for them no matter how betrayed they feel.

But I'm afraid Disturbed, that your are right on. The seduction of power and influence has warped many on The Hill to simply take our vote for granted. The arrogance of it all...

There is no rational explanation for so overtly telling We The People to fuck off in regards to our collective desire to defund and eventually end this tragic war. If anything, they are going in the opposite direction (see May vs Sept vote totals).

Mulit-Corps alright. This reminds me of the flick V for Vendetta more and more everyday. Where is V anyway?

[snot]

30. I am heartsick, and completely stumped.

It makes absolutely no sense to give this admin one more dime; they will only misspend it. They certainly will not use it to bring troops home.

This is obvious. So our Dem leaders (Kucinich and perhaps Conyers excepted) are either complete fools or complicit, at least in that they must think we need to stay there to maintain control of the oil, or to continue the occupation indefinitely, or some other reason they're not talking about.

Peace Patriot, thank you for your post at # 25.

Second to election reform, I would add media reform, to which most Dems seem even more oblivious, though they're shredded daily in the corporate media.

[shireen]

31. Bernie SANDERS voted Yea. nt

[lostnotforgotten]

32. As I Have Said In Many, Many Posts, The Democratic Party Is Dead

We have but two choices:

1) Form a new Progressive party
2) The Second American Revolution

Because, wasting any more time with the current party is a lost cause!

[depakid]

36. What we basically have is cowardice vs. corruption

Sad but true.

[NRaleighLiberal]

33. Though of course we don't know everything that they are aware of, in my view, there is NO

reason to trust ANY politician. I am wearing my extreme cynicism like a badge these days (have always been a healthy cynic, but have taken it to a whole new level these past seven years).

[eagler]

34. there is no excuse

[Perry Logan]

35. Chill. The majority of Americans oppose defunding the war. They haven't lost their minds.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. exactly.

[cali]

46. That's not true. n/t

[cali]

47. It seems no one on this thread understands

that this vote did not actually fund the war.

[RiverStone]

52. please elaborate, thats not how I read this...

HR 1585 reads as follows:

To authorize appropriations for fiscal year 2008 for military activities of the Department of Defense, for military construction, and for defense activities of the Department of Energy, to prescribe military personnel strengths for such fiscal year, and for other purposes.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00359


How is this vote NOT funding the war?

[spanone]

76. this bill is to fund the military....war or not.

[YankmeCrankme]

106. Why is this even necessary then?

The military is funded in the annual budget. Why would they need an extra $150 billion dollars?

Where did their annual budget go?

Is bush looking to have this extra money if the Congress fails to pass the bi-annual Iraqi war supplemental funding bill?

Or is this extra funding needed for an attack on Iran?

[RiverStone]

53. Read. The majority of Americans WANT defunding!

Most in Poll Want War Funding Cut

Washington Post - 10/2/07

Most Americans oppose fully funding President Bush's $190 billion request for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and a sizable majority support an expansion of a children's health insurance bill he has promised to veto, putting Bush and many congressional Republicans on the wrong side of public opinion on upcoming foreign and domestic policy battles.

The new Washington Post-ABC News poll also shows deep dissatisfaction with the president and with Congress. Bush's approval rating stands at 33 percent, equal to his career low in Post-ABC polls. And just 29 percent approve of the job Congress is doing, its lowest approval rating in this poll since November 1995, when Republicans controlled both the House and Senate. It also represents a 14-point drop since Democrats took control in January.

Despite discontent with Congress this year, the public rates congressional Republicans (29 percent approve) lower than congressional Democrats (38 percent approve). When the parties are pitted directly against each other, the public broadly favors Democrats on Iraq, health care, the federal budget and the economy. Only on the issue of terrorism are Republicans at parity with Democrats.

Part of the displeasure with Congress stems from the stalemate between Democrats and the White House over Iraq policy. Most Americans do not believe Congress has gone far enough in opposing the war, with liberal Democrats especially critical of their party's failure to force the president into a significant change in policy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/01/AR2007100101235.html?hpid=topnews

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. kerry and kennedy are not traitors to the liberal cause. i trust they voted in our best interest.

i also think that they had no choice because any soldier dying because they didnt vote this bill in would be blamed on dems and liberals.

its the way politics/media goes.

[Forkboy]

40. No...just it's soul.

[Canuckistanian]

41. Obviously, they knew it would pass

So why couldn't they at least have put up a token resistance?

Were there ZERO attempts to at least put some accountability on Bush?

[shimmergal]

100. There's no way either we or Congress

can actually hold Bush accountable. Only his Maker has that power. So . . .

I suggest prayer or spellcasting would be more effective than a token resistance with legislative games.

[eagler]

42. This really should be the defining vote on who we vote for in 08

It is for me. No patience left.

[bdamomma]

44. ..................

we are the only ones to stop this now. our voices continually are not being heard, each day that goes by more and more soldiers are getting killed, this will bite us back soon.

[HughBeaumont]

45. I seriously need an explanation from Sherrod Brown on this.

He's one of the most viciously anti-war Dems in the senate, and yet he voted YES for this?

There HAS to be a good reason. Nothing on his page yet.

[leftchick]

48. 30,000 - 70,000 US Troops Likely to be in Iraq for Many Years

http://juancole.com/

Wednesday, October 03, 2007
Kahl: 30,000 - 70,000 US Troops Likely to be in Iraq for Many Years

Colin Kahl of Georgetown University writes:

'There will be 100-130K troops in Iraq when Bush leaves. The number will depend largely on who wins the factional infighting between the White House and MNF-I (Petraeus) on the one hand, and CENTCOM, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Secretary Gates on the other hand. The former want the higher number; the latter are concerned about strains on the ground forces and will push for the lower number.

The only political factor that might tip Bush toward a smaller number would be the needs of GOP candidates next year (including the presidential candidate), but Bush appears to want the highest possible number so that the Dems can come in, initiate a substantial withdrawal, and still leave robust enough residual forces so the wheels won't come off whatever "progress" has been attained by the end of 2008. The administration is also hoping to reach a bilateral security arrangement with the Iraqi Government next year that will put U.S.-Iraqi relations on a sustainable path. The Iraqi government has signaled that they too want such an arrangement.

To be sure, if the Dems win the presidency, there will be a substantial withdrawal. But the frontrunners acknowledge that a safe and responsible withdrawal means about 1-2 Brigades a month. That will take at least a year to get rid of the bulk of combat forces, and probably 2 years to get all forces and equipment out. The size of the residual force they would leave behind depends on public opinion at home, the conditions on the ground in Iraq, and the missions they would be given (counterterrorism, embassy protection, training and advising, border security, etc.).

I think the leading presidential candidates perceive certain enduring interests in Iraq and the region that cannot be accomplished by a complete and rapid withdrawal (regardless of what the left flank of the party wants), and I think all of these missions can be justified to the American public, especially if Al Qaeda in Iraq and Iran continue to meddle in Iraq.

The biggest wildcard is maintenance of the training/advising mission. There have been signs from the Democratic candidates, especially Obama, that continuing the U.S. commitment to train and advise the Iraqi Security Forces would hinge on the nature of the Iraqi government we would be empowering.

:(

[porphyrian]

49. You held out giving them the benefit of the doubt longer than I did. - n/t

[spanone]

51. they can bitch all they want but they are enablers.....money = complicity

[lateo]

55. So what are we going to do about it?

Are we going to keep voting for the same people that keep doing this? Nothing will ever change if we do.

[Beetwasher]

57. CAN SOMEONE PROVIDE A LINK ABOUT WTF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?

Was there a funding vote? I see no news about this anywhere.

[RiverStone]

58. taking you to the Senate vote itself

here:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00359

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

109. That appears to be appropriation for the military, not the war. eom

[mudesi]

80. Isn't that something?

Iraq is no longer a story in the mainstream media.

[Quantess]

60. What do we pay them for?

It's outrageous.

[Beelzebud]

63. We pay them a lot less than their corporate backers.

[bobbolink]

69. And there you have it. You get what you pay for. We just ain't paying what

Halliburton and company does...

:nuke:

[Amonester]

90. and Helliburton & Co. pay them with the money Cheney gives 'em...

which comes in bidless chunks from that $150,000,000,000.00 (and previous Billion$) charged on the national credit card (which belongs to... US, taxpayers!)!

So, in short... Helliburton gives 'em more than we do... but the more they give them comes from US (actually, our children's grandkids!).

Plus interests... (that, in itself, is/will be quite a burden for future generations, if any...)

[librechik]

61. your mistake: you think the Congress is working for We the People.

The Congress thinks the boss is the President. It's psycological, not political. He abuses them, so they cower. They don't want to be the boss, they aren't abusers, and they can't use the blame game on themselves.

They prefer to sit around and point fingers to actually taking a stand.

They are like the poor abused children of a violent father who are afraid they'll get smacked if they complain about getting smacked. They don't even raise their heads when one of them gets killed, along with most of his family. They're afraid they'll be next, and they're afraid to mention it.

Remember, first one to raise their head gets it knocked off!

What has happened to my brave America? We are trapped in an abusive cycle with a psychopath. And theres' nobody with the courage or means to do an intervention.

[BlooInBloo]

64. And Leahy is pulling a "Snarlin Arlen" - letting the AG nominee go without....

... documents being turned over by the WH.

Fuckers.

[Disturbed]

72. The Dems didn't cave in competely.

Busholini requested $190 Billion. Only $150 Billion was forked over. That is a win, aint it?

Do I need the sarcasm thing?

[BlooInBloo]

73. New campaign ad: "Democrats: Ending the war - $40 billion at a time"

[AntiFascist]

74. I was watching a Senate hearing yesterday on CSPAN....

I couldn't believe hearing a Dem senator actually asking if there was anything they could do to help in the case that government leaders are faced with prosecution or imprisonment in foreign countries for violating international law involving torture. In other words, they are less concerned with how America is perceived internationally and more concerned with enabling the criminal administration in its illegal activities. On live TV bipartisan Congress virtually admits to the world that it will pursue criminal activities.

[tom_paine]

75. Three Answers: Yes, no, and yes

The bottom line is: The Imperial Subjects of Amerika have none, simply ZERO, say in national governance anymore.

There's nothing more to say. Though not in as much physical danger for speaking out (yet), we are as powerless as any Chinese person living today or Russian from the 60s and 70s.

Only the occasional lying "tip of the hat" (mostly on immigration issues or security like the ports selloff) to the "will of the people" which is to say "the will of the last 26-30% of Imperial Subjects of Amerika who still think they are free citizens with a voice in government", is thus require to maintain the whole illusion of participatory government, of a constitutional democratic-republic, for the Imperial Subjects.

But it is a lie, a sham, a wretched remnant of the days when the American People were free and proud. No more.

So again I say: Yes, no, and yes

[mudesi]

79. I give up (nm)

[trashcanistanista]

81. Fiengold and Byrd voted no. That's good enough

for me. The rest were flat out wrong. There is nothing they know that we don't know that could possibly justify a yes vote on this. They are wrong, wrong, wrong. The party has, in fact as the op said, left us in the dirt.

[rucky]

82. Game Over. n/t

[KatyaR]

83. This is just proof to me that we are losing our country--if we haven't already.

It's only a matter of time until it's "if you're breathing, you're on your own--now give me all your money and fuck off."

I can't wait for the people dying in the streets. :sarcasm:

[Generator]

85. Money for death, no money for children

Greatest country on earth.

And the Democrats aren't even smart enough to ever bargain for ANYTHING. This country is becoming the soviet model. ALL OUR TREASURY for war-most of it IMAGINARY enemies or created enemies and no money for the people that live here. Billions for IRAQ. Nothing for children in America.

[Olney Blue]

88. I hear you.

:-(

[ProSense]

86. Bush can't spend the money, he has to go back to Congress to get it

here.

[Hydra]

87. The logic you mention here is scattered

far too many people are willing to cover for our reps. I was willing to say silent during the first supplemental mishap because investigations and censures were on the way. I stayed silent on the "surge" for the same reason...maybe they needed a bit more time to work. Gutting FISA was the last middle finger for me- this wasn't what I elected my party to do.

[calteacherguy]

89. Focus on 08'. Focus on 08'. Focus on 08'.

Patience...the reign of terror is almost over.

[AllyCat]

98. No it won't. Only 2 or 3 of the candidates want to end the war

and they are NOT front-runners because the sheeple just want to "pick the winner" in the primary.

[DCKit]

91. I'm suire Y'all said enough. They've lost their F'n minds Kicking. n/t

[JVS]

92. Obviously they see a need to escalate the peace-keeping

:sarcasm:

[Imagevision]

93. Quite obviousl the Senators are scared shitless over losing their jobs and

US. troops must lose their lives because of politics.

[Major Hogwash]

94. Some of those Dems are in "safe" districts too. And some aren't even up for re-election yet.

Two of my friends quit posting on liberal forums defending the Dems because of this.
One of them told me "why should I defend her, she doesn't give a shit anyways."

I'm really dissapointed in Kerry's vote. He has abdicated having any moral voice on the war.

[lonestarnot]

96. It is unbelievably disjointed. No interest from Congress in putting an end to it.

They are all dipping in the till.

[lonestarnot]

95. Dicks are in the dirt yes.

[western mass]

97. DEM Voters are responsible.

You and me and every Dem voter who falls for the threat: "vote for (collaborator, coward, corporate shill) because he/she is better that a Republican", is responsible for this.

Funding the war, the vote on MoveOn, every act of cowardice and collaboration can be blamed on the fact that there are NO repercussions. Your Dem representatives will pander and supplicate to the right because they can count on liberals and progressives being too cowardly to do anything but support them again and again out of fear.

If the Democratic Party would rather pander to the right than to this progressive, they will not have my vote. End of story. If it means Democratic losses in the short term for the sake of taking back our party, so be it. If progressive voters don't have the courage to do the same, then they need to shut up and get used to the state of things, because this is the way it's always going to be no matter who controls Congress or the White House.

[RiverStone]

107. Yes, and they assume they will get our vote...

No matter how complicit they are with the right. The Party elite assumes that the Dem electorate will continue to get our vote no matter what - the sad thing is the recent actions (mentioned in your post) show us that many on The Hill don't believe they need to work for us, or our vote. Is it arrogance? I'm not sure. The most baffling aspect of this weeks war funding vote of 92-3 is that compared to the 80-14 fiasco last May, Dems have moved even farther away from the voters wishes. I was disappointed last May, now I'm simply blown away. Back to WTF!!!!???

I'm not ready to go 3rd party (yet) and yet I wonder if the Dems are even what I voted for in 06?

[bobbolink]

113. And so do the centrists of the party.

There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth and renting of garments when/if we don't all do as is assumed.

Oh well, too bad about that. :)

[leftofthedial]

102. the "democrats" in Congress

are not on our side

they work for the same fascist capitalist/corporate scum who own the repukes

[RiverStone]

108. simple question

Then where do you/we go from here?

[leftofthedial]

110. eventually, the corpo-fascists will cause enough pain

among the proles that there will be a revolt

--or not

[mdmc]

105. from Seinfeld - they are all facepainters

Gotta support the team...

[guardian]

114. Yes

>>>>>Has the Party establishment utterly left us in the dirt?

yes