Should this be illegal, or a matter of free expression?

[BushOut06]

http://www.krnv.com/Global/story.asp?S=7156726

Should it actually be illegal to fly another flag over the US flag? Personally, I believe it should be a matter of free speech. To me, this goes right up there with flag burning. I may personally find it distasteful and offensive, but isn't that what the First Amendment is for, to protect speech and expression that may be offensive to some?

[Richard Steele]

1. In a free country, that would be an example of free expression. nm

[rucky]

2. That's not even the slightest bit offensive to me.

It's two flags flying. Is this actually a controversy somewhere?

My neighbor flys a Cleveland Browns flag above his American Flag.


Now THAT'S offensive!

[NavyDavy]

21. and against protocol

[RB TexLa]

3. The positions of the flags on a pole? What legal question could there be?

Or concern?

[cali]

5. I think it actually is illegal. n/t

[Rabrrrrrr]

4. So far as I am aware, it's not illegal, and all those mouth breathing racists are wrong.

However, illegal or not, free speech or not, I find it disgusting.

If someone loves their home country that much that they can't show a modicum of taste and respect, they should fucking go back.

Shit like this makes me irate.

[RB TexLa]

16. So I should jump on the next flight out? Because my heritage is more important than my country?

I hardly ever fly the American flag, but the Irish flag goes up every day.

And guess what, it means nothing to me if that disgusts you.

[NavyDavy]

19. yes take your butt back to Ireland and fly your flag all you want

[Rabrrrrrr]

41. It would have been easier had you asked without all the accusations.

The respect issue that disgusts me is flying another country's flag over our own.

I would never move to another country and fly the US flag above their flag. (In fact, I would never move to another country and fly the US flag at all, anyway; that's just rude to the people of that country who are gracious enough to host me.) Flag flying also smacks of ignorant tribalism, which humanity should have evolved out of by now, but it hasn't, so there we go.

But if I did fly an American flag in a foreign country, I would have the courtesy to put it either a) under their flag or b) on a pole (as I imagine you do) without any other flag at all, which isn't so bad since it isn't claiming a superiority of one over the other.

And I am willing in the US to cut slack for people flying their home country's flags, because we ARE a giganto melting pot with representatives from pretty much every country in the world, and I think that's pretty cool. One of our church camps back in WI always has some foreigners on staff each summer, and the camp flies the flags of all nations represented on staff - and that looks pretty cool.

But to put your own flag atop your host country's flag? That's fucking rude. That's like being invited into someone's house and shitting on their couch.

[Zookeeper]

152. Well said, Rabrrrr!

I couldn't care less about flags, but I am interested in people's motivations. If a person is into flying flags, obviously the way they choose to display them is significant.

If I lived in a foreign country, I would consider it rude to fly an American flag, especially OVER the flag of my host country.

[Rabrrrrrr]

154. Flying one's own over a host country's flag is the rudist thing I can think of to do

in another country.

Except maybe stomp their flag into the ground and then shit on it, but unless someone is watching at that precise time it isn't much of a statement - but putting one's flag on top of the host country's: that hangs up in the air for all to see for as long as one puts it up, a perpetual high-flying middle-finger to the host country.

Thanks for the agreement!

[DrDan]

160. you are absolutely correct - they should be the same height -

according to international protocol

[Romulox]

89. Ethnocentrism is, by definition, offensive to the American ideal. nt

[happyslug]

27. It is Illegal by Federal Law, but a law that has no punishment

Congress has made it the law that you can nOT fly any flag higher then the US Flag (the sole exception is a church Pennant on a Naval Vessel when services are being rendered).

While the law says you WILL NOT fly any flag higher then the US flag on US soil, it is a law without any punishment. i.e. the Police can say it is illegal, but they can NOT arrest you, fine you or do anything except to say it is illegal.

Now I am talking FEDERAL LAW, many states have laws that also make it illegal and many of those local laws have punishments attached (This was the case when the Supreme Court ruled it was "Free Speech" to burn a US Flag, the burner had been arrested and charged under a STATE LAW which had a punishment NOT the Federal Law without any).

[Rabrrrrrr]

37. Thanks! I had thought it was just in the "Flag Code" as a "ought to be done"

I didn't realize it was actually in the law.

Interesting that it's a law, but one without punishment for breaking.

Thanks for the clarification!

[happyslug]

85. It reflected William Jennings Byran Attitude to such laws.

That if you are dealing with professionals, you do NOT need to put0 in a punishment. When you are dealing with professionals all you need to say is X is illegal. Bryan's most famous example of this was when he proposed banning the Teaching of Evolution is Schools in the 1920s. When Tennessee took his proposed law AND added a $100-500 fine, he actually wrote to the Legislature OPPOSING that punishment. When a year later he was part of the prosecution team against Scopes in the Scope Monkey trial, he even offered to pay the fine (If Scoops did not have the money, but Scoops told him the town had agreed to pay the fine themselves).

If this does NOT sense if your understanding of the Scoops Monkey trail is from the Movie "Inherit the Wind" that is understandable, for these acts were ignored in the movie AND the movie added the scenes where the Bryan like Character demanded Jail time for Scoops. Bryan NEVER made such a speech at the trail for no jail time was set under the statute AND Bryan had offered to pay the fine. The Scene is from McCarthy's speech in the 1950s about Communists in the Government NOT from the monkey Trial. People tend to forget the Movie "Inherit the wind" was NOT a movie about teaching evolution BUT attacking people who attacked other people for NOT believing like they do. Bryan in real life opposed such actions. The reason he appeared at the trial was his opposition to how evolution was being used (i.e. justification for Eugenics and that that some people are better than other people, concept he rejected, he even told the Attorney General of Tennessee to hire a Jewish lawyer he knew out of New York to be part of the Prosecution team, to show it was NOT Christan Fundamentalist vis Evolution, but the right of the State to decide how its money was to be spent). In fact what I repeat below is from his last actual comment in the trial, after it was over and the Judge gave both sides the opportunity to make a public comment, it was his statement on the trial. (Bryan's whole speech is hear: http://faculty.palomar.edu/pjacoby/scopesguilty.html this includes ALL that was done on the final day of trial, so Bryan's comment is at the end of the Article) form the New York Times. Read it just to see how a good speech is suppose to look like when you read something from Bush.

Anyway, Bryan influence to pass laws WITHOUT punishment so that people have an idea of how to act, but if they did not they would NOT be punished is reflected in the Federal Statute. IT is a guideline on how to show the flag, not a set of mandated laws.

[onenote]

127. the "flag code" is codified into US law, but its essentially a set of voluntary guidelines

Any attempt to go onto private property and force the owner of those flags to fly them differently would almost certainly fail as a matter of constitutional law.

See http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/spence.html

[DrDan]

157. I believe the law states that if the two countries are at peace, then

they should be flown at the same height.

[lumberjack_jeff]

73. Why is flag protocol racist? n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. Do you really believe these people give a shit about flag protocol?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

108. Sure they do. Don't you remember that picture of the guy with the flag fanny pack?

You've got to *respect* the flag, even if it comes at the expense of what the flag stands for.

[lumberjack_jeff]

124. Yes. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

126. Would you like to purchase a bridge?

I've got one for cheap.

[Rabrrrrrr]

109. It isn't.

[Deep13]

6. It is not illegal, nor should it be. nt

[Skinner]

7. This would be constitutionally protected free speech.

I'm not surprised that there are laws on the books against it. But I doubt those laws would hold up to a legal challenge.

(By the way, did anyone watch that video clip on the link? What the heck was that?)

[TheUniverse]

11. They might hold up now.

Bush has packed the Supreme Court with creeps.

[Skinner]

14. Actually, that's a good point.

I just did a little searching on Google, and as far as I can tell the last flag burning case before the Supreme Court was United States v. Eichman in 1990, and was decided 5-4. Seems ripe to be overturned.

Anyone know if there have been more recent cases?

[TheUniverse]

23. I just watched the video.

That man just said his name and committed a crime right in front of a camera. Everyone needs to call the Reno police and have that man arrested. His name is Jim Brauser (I don't know how he spells his last name...)

[WinkyDink]

8. I think it is disgusting, frankly, and no joke. But then, I don't like the Confederate flag flown,

either.
But illegal? If it's on a government building, yes; otherwise, no.

[NavyDavy]

10. wrong, read the rules and this is international rules not US

[WinkyDink]

164. Read the OP. It was a QUESTION which I ANSWERED with my OPINION.

And by "rules" do you mean "laws"?

[NavyDavy]

9. here is the rule

11. When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace. The order of precedence for flags generally is National flags (US first, then others in alphabetical order in English), State (host state first, then others in the order of admission) and territories (Washington DC, Puerto Rico, etc.), Military (in order of establishment: Army, Marine Corps, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard), then other.


12. When displayed from a staff in a church or public auditorium on or off a podium, the flag of the United States of America should hold the position of superior prominence, in advance of the audience, and in the position of honor at the clergyman's or speaker's right as he faces the audience. Any other flag so displayed should be placed on the left of the clergyman or speaker (to the right of the audience). Please note that the old guidelines differed from this updated and simplified one.

[zbdent]

12. It is not illegal (if this is in the US). However,

the standards for flying the US flag point out that, when displayed, no other flag should be placed above the US flag.

(as a show of arrogance, the US flag is the only flag which does not dip when passing the host of the Olympics during the opening and closing ceremonies)

[Thothmes]

20. One exception

In the Navy, the church pennant is flown above the ensign when church services are in progress on a U.S. Naval vessel.

[RebelOne]

13. It is illegal and rightly so.

Do you think any other country would appreciate the U.S. flag flown above theirs?

[Squatch]

15. Agreed.

[NavyDavy]

18. agree 100 percent.....the ones that think its arrogance just don't

have pride in their own country.....yes i am proud of my country, the actions of some in my country no, my country yes

[Marrah_G]

24. Agreed!

I love my country. I refuse to let this administration take that from me.

[Deep13]

32. That's your prerogative.

For me it seems silly to have pride in something over which I have no control. I had no part in making this country or any say in being born here. Having been born and raised here, I sure would not fit in anywhere else and I am defensive of the rights and opportunities we have. So for me it is more like an appreciation of good fortune than pride. Frankly, I don't consider patriotism or anything else that inhibits rational analysis to be a virtue. It seems to me that patriotism makes us willing to tolerate our own injustices and unable to learn from others.

[unpossibles]

104. agreed

frankly, I love my country, but I also know that it's not like I chose to come here, I was born here. I appreciate our freedoms, but I also would like us to be more honest about our faults so that we can improve. I dislike jingoism/nationalism in all forms, even football, and frankly that seems to be the typical result of patriotism. One can appreciate, defend, and love one's country without turning into a cheerleader or making an "us v. them" game out of it.

Frankly I think we need to discover alien life so that we can start to see humanity as an "us" - with the idea that eventually we'd also see those same aliens as being part of the "us" of life.

[MyNameGoesHere]

61. Do you have pride in your country

for what it should stand for or a "symbol"? Amazing how a flag levitates to the bastion of what America is supposed to be all about.

[Heidi]

25. Not every country is as nationalist oriented as the US.

We live on the southern tip of Switzerland, five minutes from the Italian border. There are homes in our (Swiss) state where the owners fly Italian flag not above the Swiss flag, but in the complete absence of the Swiss flag. We don't even own a Swiss flag, but I used to have a US flag above my office window. (We now only fly a Peace/Pace flag and a big Tibetan prayer flag, and no country flags.) Not everyone gets as wound up about flags as many of us Americans seem to.

[Squatch]

38. Well, that's great for CH

Here in the US, we have our own set of laws.

[Heidi]

42. I'm an American.

Just so ya know.

[Squatch]

52. I'm happy for you.

[Heidi]

55. Why so snarky?

:shrug:

[trusty elf]

139. Hey Heidi, I'm an expat American living in Switzerland,

and I too find it amazing that people get worked up about this. It seems so silly.
Actually silly is not the word. In fact, it's alarming to me that you can strip mine majestic purple mountains all you want from sea to shining sea, foul the air, poison the water, condemn vast numbers of people kept in a perpetual state of fear and ignorance to lives of virtual wage slaverly, and THAT will ellicit less outrage than some perceived affront to a mere symbol. Is the reality less important than the symbol? I don't get it. I should add that the Republic for which the flag stands is in grave danger it seems to me. Whether someone has some other flag flying above the US flag is a total non-issue IMHO.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

122. Yes, our own set of laws.

First and foremost of which is the Constitution.

Some people were born here, but apparently they're not real Americans.

[cherokeeprogressive]

80. The Oldest Known Cherokee Flag

Hi Heidi!

Here's the only flag I'd fly above the Stars and Stripes.

Hope you're doing well.

Peace
Chris

[Heidi]

82. I've only one thing to say to you, mister.

:loveya:

[Deep13]

26. Congressional guidelines require the USA flag to be on top...

...but the 1st Amendment makes them entirely unenforceable. Frankly, the right to dissent necessarily includes the right to be disrespectful. This country is not going to be weakened by disrespect to the official bunting. Whatever it symbolizes, flags are just colored cloth.

[A HERETIC I AM]

47. The rules regarding placement "on top" apply only to the flags of states, not countries.

(c) No other flag or pennant should be placed above or, if on the
same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of
America, except during church services conducted by naval chaplains
at sea, when the church pennant may be flown above the flag during
church services for the personnel of the Navy. No person shall
display the flag of the United Nations or any other national or
international flag equal, above, or in a position of superior
prominence or honor to, or in place of, the flag of the United
States at any place within the United States or any Territory or
possession thereof: Provided, That nothing in this section shall
make unlawful the continuance of the practice heretofore followed
of displaying the flag of the United Nations in a position of
superior prominence or honor, and other national flags in positions
of equal prominence or honor, with that of the flag of the United
States at the headquarters of the United Nations.
(d) The flag of the United States of America, when it is
displayed with another flag against a wall from crossed staffs,
should be on the right, the flag's own right, and its staff should
be in front of the staff of the other flag.
(e) The flag of the United States of America should be at the
center and at the highest point of the group when a number of flags
of States or localities or pennants of societies are grouped and
displayed from staffs.
(f) When flags of States, cities, or localities, or pennants of
societies are flown on the same halyard with the flag of the United
States, the latter should always be at the peak. When the flags are
flown from adjacent staffs, the flag of the United States should be
hoisted first and lowered last. No such flag or pennant may be
placed above the flag of the United States or to the United States
flag's right.
g) When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to
be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should
be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the
display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in
time of peace.

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/04C1.txt

[Deep13]

51. Okay. nt

[onenote]

129. actually, the code says flags of other nations should not be flown

equal, above, or in a position of superior
prominence or honor to, or in place of, the flag of the United
States at any place within the United States (subsection (c))

The highlighted provision arguably is referring to the display of two or more nations other than the US. In other words, US on top, all others at the same level below.

[DrDan]

159. nope

"When the flags of two or more nations are flown together, each flag should be displayed from a separate pole of the same height, and each flag should be the same size. In time of peace, international custom forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation. Flying the flags of two nations on the same pole is a sign of wartime victory. It will be interpreted as a serious insult."

[ret5hd]

29. Show me the law. Not a "rule" not a "regulation". A law.

[Squatch]

50. Title 4 United States Code Chap 1 Sec 7 Para (g)

(g) When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace.

Link

[mcscajun]

57. Not illegal. Bad taste, perhaps, but not illegal; the US Flag Code is advisory, not regulatory.

The United States Flag Code establishes advisory rules for display and care of the flag of the United States. It is title 4 of the United States Code: 4 U.S.C. § 1 et seq. This is a U.S. federal law, but there is no penalty for failure to comply with them and they are not widely enforced — indeed, punitive enforcement would conflict with the First Amendment right to freedom of speech, as the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled when the subject has come up in the past. (The Flag Desecration Amendment that has been proposed from time to time would override Supreme Court rulings on the matter, if it were passed though the amendment may still be in conflict with the 1st amendment)

This etiquette is as applied within U.S. jurisdiction. In other countries and places, local etiquette applies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code

[Squatch]

64. No penalty for infraction does not equal "not illegal"

[mcscajun]

78. Well then, let's just say "it's illegal, but there's nothing we can do about it."

Much like the illegal vandalism of this man:



And surely that is the most minor of his far-too-numerous crimes against the Flag, this country and its people. Still, it does make me :puke: to see him using even a souvenir flag as a place to be autographed. :puke:

[LanternWaste]

167. Like the law still on the Texas books...

Like the law still on the Texas books that requires a male waving a red flag to walk at least 150 feet in front of an automobile driven by a female. No penalties for the infraction of this law, but I suppose it's not "not illegal".

[annabanana]

35. not illegal

not "nice" maybe, but not illegal

I wish people were as upset about the shredding of the Constitution, the actual blueprint[ of our Country's vaunted "freedoms" as they are about a bunch of cotton and dye.

[Katherine Brengle]

62. So, because someone else is a moron, I must be a moron, in order to preserve

the eternal balance of moronism?

[lumberjack_jeff]

75. Agree. n/t

[mudesi]

117. Yes. Canada.

For God's sake. What makes me sick is the idiotic nationalism being displayed in this thread.

[rucky]

125. Should we put 'em in the slammer with kiddie rapists?

fine them? how much? send them to be reprogrammed?

sorry, jingoistic pride should not be protected by law, and if I were a jury member, I would urge nullification.

[rockymountaindem]

165. I agree

I don't understand why we're supposed to be so open-minded as to allow the denigration of our own flag in favor of others.

[Odin2005]

17. Is it offensive? Yes. Should it be Illegal? No.

[Robson]

22. But it is illegal

It is illegal to fly another flag above the US flag on the same pole. It isn't illegal to burn the flag. The rule of law is something that needs to be kept in mind unless we want anarchy. If we don't like it then the law needs changed.

I was raised in a community that had immigrants of many eastern European ethnicities and don't remember any of them ever flying the flag of their homeland. The immigrants weren't resented because they came here legally. They had ethnic based social organizations, but after one generation they were assimilated, learned English and became part of the American melting pot. Their homeland was something they were from but not something that they supported, whether it be literally by sending money home or figuratively by flying flags. That's my memory of immigration as a youth.

Multiculturalism is a good thing when it comes together to make a common blended denominator, not when it stays nationalistic.

[Deep13]

28. See post #26. nt

[happyslug]

31. See my previous post, the FEDERAL LAW on Flags ha no punishment attached to them

In the burning Flag case it was a STATE LAW that had a punishment attached to it that was in question. NOT the Federal law that has NO PUNISHMENT attached to it. The Federal law is clear, you can fly no flag higher then the US Flag and the US Flag MUST be in the position of Highest honor (And can NOT be dept to another flag). While that is in the Federal LAw, no punishment was attached to that law and thus never been challenged. The Federal law was influenced by people who believed upi could give guidance on how to honor the flag, but wanted to avoid any issue of Free Speech.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

34. WTF?

1. If it's illegal, it shouldn't be. Free speech, plain and simple.
2. "The rule of law is something that needs to be kept in mind unless we want anarchy" is garbage. First of all, "rule of law" is a right-wing catch phrase meaning either A) stay in line, darkies; or B) we're about to invade a "lawbreaking" nation. Second of all, the history of this nation is packed silly with stupid laws that should never "have been kept in mind." Jim Crow laws, internment executive orders, the Alien and Sedition Acts, etc etc etc
3. "The immigrants weren't resented because they came here legally." Ah, yes, so it's those illegals who are worth resenting. Because, oh, right, you had the initiative and intelligence to have been born in big rich America, and they didn't.
4. "Multiculturalism is a good thing when it comes together to make a common blended denominator, not when it stays nationalistic." What's more nationalistic than saying your flag has to be at the top of the pole? And, by the way, multiculturalism actually is a good thing when it preserves many cultures, ethnicities, identities, and heritages.

[Robson]

44. Guess we have a little difference of opinion my du compadre

You think the rule of law is just a RW catch phrase? Try a test drive with anarchy for an experience.

If laws aren't enforced we have either cronyism or anarchy and both are dangerous to a country. Our immigration laws need either enforced vigorously or changed, just like the flag issue (even if it isn't enforecable). The danger of nationalistic multi-culturalism is that it can cause instability and internal friction in a country. They even have a term for it.....Balkanization.

[LanternWaste]

69. Then give me internal friction any day...

Then give me internal friction any day...

[Jed Dilligan]

81. The law is bereft of all moral authority

until the War on Drugs ends, in the same way Southern law was bereft of all moral authority until slavery and Jim Crow ended.

When the "justice" system is used to enrich the few at the expense of whole races and classes of people, there is no "rule of law." It's just big thugs, little thugs, and a mass of victims.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

120. Pfff.

Yeah, "rule of law" is a right wing catchphrase. Just like "pure strength of will."

"If laws aren't enforced we have either cronyism or anarchy and both are dangerous to a country."

The law I'm interested in enforceing is the 1st amendment, which makes the "Flag Code" illegal.

"Our immigration laws need either enforced vigorously or changed,"

Agreed, let's change the immigration laws. Until then break them.

"The danger of nationalistic multi-culturalism is that it can cause instability and internal friction in a country."

Isn't "nationalistic multi-culturalism" an oxymoron? Immigrants taking pride in their heritage never hurt nobody. It's the nationalists that are the problem.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

150. Seen a lot of rampant anarchy, have you?

What's with this ritualistic obedience to authority? It's a sorry day when leftists hide behind "the rule of law" to dodge taking a stand for a hard and fast liberal principle.

Liberal (n): one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways.

[BoneDaddy]

30. Not illegal, but shows a tremendous lack of class

I am really really tired of seeing the Mexican flag or any other flag being flown in lieu of, or superceding, the American flag.

Not because I am a rabid xenophobe, I am not.
Not because I have anything against ANY immigrant population, I don't.

I am an Irish American and have my tri-colors flying proudly with the American flag, so I understand the importance of heritage, but I am American FIRST.

I see alot of up front disrespect from immigrants who CHOOSE to come to America and then slam the US in many ways. How about some gratitude at the very least?

[Marrah_G]

48. Shall we take bets

on how quickly you are labeled a racist?

[BoneDaddy]

65. lol true

but doesn't bother me. What often passes as common sense is blown entirely out of proportion in these rooms

I personalize the issue for myself.

If I came to another country for a new life, financial success, sanctuary, survival, the last thing I would do would be openly disrespect that nation. I find it low, ignorant and entirely devoid of gratitude and class.

That does not mean America is perfect, far from it, but how dare immigrants (documented or undocumented) keep taking everything we offer and then laud the heritage of their country of origin who could not care for you, could not uplift your family, and could not meet your needs over your adopted country. If anything I would be disgusted with my country of origin and would identify more with my adopted land.

[Marrah_G]

77. I agree

I also think (and hope) "most" immigrants (at least in my area) feel the same.

[BoneDaddy]

83. Actually most do, from my experience

but I think one of the worst public relations botches in recent history was the pro-Mexican immigrant rallies in the Southwest where everyone was carrying a MEXICAN flag. The leaders of those rallies showed an incredible lack of foresight and really hampered their own cause. It is very easy for the right wing and the anti immigrant groups to point to rallies such as that and dismiss them due to their use of the mexican flag. What they should have done was have everyone holding American flags. Would be hard pressed to want to throw out people being proud of being American.

[Robson]

90. Agree

I agree wholeheartedly and propose that most large scale social issues can analogized and boiled down to basic common sense, common courtesy and the golden rule.

Simply put .... don't come into my home unless invited, and if you do, be respectful, courteous, don't steal, don't dirty the rug and don't crap on my furniture. I would expect you to expect the same from me.

Our country represents an extension of our home as we have a big stake in it. We have paid taxes, we are mortgaged to it, we've elected our officials, served in the military (although I question the "to preserve our freedom" BS, at least under current leadership), volunteered to help others, etc.

[BoneDaddy]

92. Great analogy

That is even a better and more succinct way of viewing the issue. Again, I keep coming back to personalizing this for myself.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

107. That's a terrible analogy

Unless you are an immigrant, you had no say in being born here whereas most people have at least some choice in the homes they have.


It's a shallow analogy.

[BoneDaddy]

144. blah blah bullshit

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. Huh?

How do you know the people flying the Mexican flag are illegal and don't pay taxes? It's just as much their house as it is yours.

[BoneDaddy]

145. You are missing the point

the point is show some respect for the house you now live instead of the fucked up corrupt country you RAN from

[LanternWaste]

168. That would be the house that we kicked the original inhabitants from, yes?

"the point is show some respect for the house you now live"

That would be the house that we kicked the original inhabitants from, yes? The house we marched into, tore their crap down, illustrated disrespect to them, made them live in the broom closet while we elbowed our way into the living room, game room, family room and kitchen, because we "RAN from a fucked-up corrupt country". Guess our squatters rights superseded theirs. But God forbid someone doesn't show us respect we deserve... :sarcasm:

What's the precise length of time after you force the original inhabitants out that one can claim the house as your own? 25 Years. 50? 100? 1000?

[EFerrari]

147. Because there is no racism on DU. And because

the people who have had their democracies exploded by our government and who come here from hunger should remain invisible.

Oh, AND, they should be GRATEFUL to be displaced, forced North and abused.

Gotcha.

[onenote]

132. I proudly fly my US flag. And I'll defend the right of anyone to fly it anyway they want to

During the Vietnam War, a student took tape, pasted a peace symbol on his flag and flew it. And was convicted of a crime under state law for doing so. But the SCOTUS reversed holding that his display was protected by the first amendment.

I have no reason to think that the person flying the US flag below the Mexican flag was, in doing so, communicating his feelings about Mexico and the US and his loyalties to both. And if someone can stand up and say "I like Mexico more than the US" than for damn sure he/she ought to be able to fly flags in a way that communicates a similar sentiment.

[soothsayer]

33. It's simply incorrect, like a big typo.

[porphyrian]

36. I don't care, it's empty symbolism. - n/t

[T Wolf]

39. To read many of the responses, I almost thought I had wandered into

Freeper-Land. I am constantly amazed and saddened by the views of some here who are so ready to give away our rights. Big tent, my ass. All the big tent does is let the shit in.

Whether it actually is legal or not has no connection to whether it should be or not. Or whether it is "offensive" or not.

It is a god-damned piece of cloth that is only representative of what this country does in its actions, here and around the world. And right now, it means shit.

IF the US changes its ways and starts to act like a responsible world citizen, then come back and demand respect for the symbol. You still won't get it from many, but because respect is earned, you might persuade a few more people.

[MindPilot]

40. Wholly incorrect

The American flag should be upside-down. :evilgrin:

[unpossibles]

43. technically it's against the Flag Code, thus illegal

but so is flying it in bad weather and making clothes & paper napkins which look like the flag, and I see both all the time. Hell, the Country Music Awards would be in Gitmo if the Flag Code were properly enforced.

[Robson]

46. Good points

LOL .....Good points. I see symbolism going on here by both sides of the discussion. On one side we have an immigrant business owner who is appealing to Mexican nationalism and higher profits, and on the other side we have those that say if you immigrate here you are expected to put this country first.

[mcscajun]

63. There is no penalty for violation of the Flag Code, hence no enforcement.

And the Supreme Court has ruled such violations a matter of free speech.

The United States Flag Code establishes advisory rules for display and care of the flag of the United States. It is title 4 of the United States Code: 4 U.S.C. § 1 et seq. This is a U.S. federal law, but there is no penalty for failure to comply with them and they are not widely enforced — indeed, punitive enforcement would conflict with the First Amendment right to freedom of speech, as the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled when the subject has come up in the past. (The Flag Desecration Amendment that has been proposed from time to time would override Supreme Court rulings on the matter, if it were passed though the amendment may still be in conflict with the 1st amendment)

This etiquette is as applied within U.S. jurisdiction. In other countries and places, local etiquette applies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code

[truebrit71]

66. "Hell, the Country Music Awards would be in Gitmo if the Flag Code were properly enforced"

..what a lovely idea.... ;-)

[spoony]

70. He wiped his mouth with the flag, git 'im!

Lol, I can almost imagine headlines like "FBI raids 4th of July picnic, 35 arrested, 2 dead"

[lumberjack_jeff]

74. So is...

Writing on a flag


And walking on it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. In that case, the Flag Code is against the first amendment.

Thus illegal.

[unpossibles]

95. not necessarily

I am fine with expression using the flag - such as turning it upside down or burning it as a protest, but flying it in bad weather or wearing it on your ass is just rude, imo. Unless that's part of your expression I guess.

:)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

103. Yes, necessarily.

[unpossibles]

106. look, you can try to start a fight with me all day if you want

I am 100% for the 1st amendment, even to the point of defending that right in those I completely disagree with. I was just citing the freaking Flag Code, and I don't see how being too lazy to bring in the flag when it's crappy out is "expression" but it's not like I am saying the people who don't know the flag code should be arrested. Again, just stating facts as I learned them: the US Flag Code (which is not enforced) says how flags are supposed to be flown and how to not treat them.

I'll assume you wear a flag tuxedo or use flag toilet paper and I offended you, so for that I apologize.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

111. ...

"I don't see how being too lazy to bring in the flag when it's crappy out is 'expression'"

You said yourself, you considered it "rude." Ergo, it's some sort of expression.

"Again, just stating facts as I learned them"

I learned way back in civics that the 1st amendment gives us the right to express ourselves, even if it's rude.

[unpossibles]

112. never mind

you can continue to ignore what I am obviously saying and I'll just pretend to have gotten through to you that all I said was what is in the freakin flag code.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

118. I'm not ignoring what you're saying.

You said it was illegal.

It isn't.

You said it's not expression.

It is.

[onenote]

133. actually there are penalties for one category of flag code violations:

4 USC Sec 3:

Any person who, within the District of Columbia, in any manner, for exhibition or display, shall place or cause to be placed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, drawing, or any advertisement of any nature upon any flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America; or shall expose or cause to be exposed to public view any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign upon which shall have been printed, painted, or otherwise placed, or to which shall be attached, appended, affixed, or annexed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, or drawing, or any advertisement of any nature; or who, within the District of Columbia, shall manufacture, sell, expose for sale, or to public view, or give away or have in possession for sale, or to be given away or for use for any purpose, any article or substance being an article of merchandise, or a receptacle for merchandise or article or thing for carrying or transporting merchandise, upon which shall have been printed, painted, attached, or otherwise placed a representation of any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign, to advertise, call attention to, decorate, mark, or distinguish the article or substance on which so placed shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine not exceeding $100 or by imprisonment for not more than thirty days, or both, in the discretion of the court. The words “flag, standard, colors, or ensign”, as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America.

[spanone]

45. you can take away habeas corpus, but don't fuck with the flag

talk about misguided priorities

[tuckessee]

49. Isn't that the truth! n/t

[MedleyMisty]

53. It should definitely not be illegal

And I don't get getting your underwear in a wad over it. OMG, a colored bit of cloth and another colored bit of cloth! Oh noes the sky is falling!

[Robson]

79. Yet some get their ass all in a wad over the Confederate flag.

I agree the flag is just a piece of colored cloth. But when other flags besides the American flag are displayed I see many get their ass all in a wad over it. Even then the issue isn't the flag but the intent of those flying it. I suppose the issue today is more about the Mexican flag. Tomorrow it will be the Confederate flag.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

87. Meh.

The people who get all upset over the mexican flag probably have the confederate flag plastered all over the back of their pickup.

[Robson]

93. Agreed

some might and some might not. I try not to compartmentalize or prejudge people and I know for sure I can't read minds. The point is people get upset over the intent of flying the flag not the flag itself. BTW you might actually reverse the flags in your statement and find similar sterotypes.

[alcibiades_mystery]

54. Gotta love a fetish

:rofl:

The flag! the flag!

Ay yay yay...

[Snarkturian Clone]

Stupidity is not nor should not be illegal NT

[Beelzebud]

56. It's not easy maintaining a free society.

Hell no it should not be illegal...

FREE EXPRESSION

[mcscajun]

58. It *is* a matter of free speech, as the Supreme Court has ruled.

The United States Flag Code establishes advisory rules for display and care of the flag of the United States. It is title 4 of the United States Code: 4 U.S.C. § 1 et seq. This is a U.S. federal law, but there is no penalty for failure to comply with them and they are not widely enforced — indeed, punitive enforcement would conflict with the First Amendment right to freedom of speech, as the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled when the subject has come up in the past. (The Flag Desecration Amendment that has been proposed from time to time would override Supreme Court rulings on the matter, if it were passed though the amendment may still be in conflict with the 1st amendment)

This etiquette is as applied within U.S. jurisdiction. In other countries and places, local etiquette applies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code

[Katherine Brengle]

59. Free speech and I don't see it as offensive in the slightest.

My husband freaks out about this sometimes, and it is just absolutely beyond me why anyone would care.

[sinkingfeeling]

60. It's a violation of the Flag Code. So what, so is all those stupid little flag lapel pins.

http://lieberman.senate.gov/documents/crs/usflag.pdf

[Mountainman]

67. This doesn't upset me but I can see why it would upset others.

Nationalism is a strong emotion.

Though I don't think it is illegal it is in bad taste especially if it is an intentional attempt to piss people off. At the very least it is insensitive.

[Emit]

98. I do not think it was intentional -- see my post #96

I think it was out of sheer ignorance -- that's just my opinion based on what I wrote below -- living in Reno, and having lived just one block from this area.

[Mountainman]

116. I live near Arvin and Lamont, CA. Both cities are almost 100% Hispanic. If the Mexican flag were

flown this way there, it too would not be to piss people off. My mother grew up in an Italian ghetto in Pittsburgh and I can almost guess the Italian flag was flown over the American flag there.

[LanternWaste]

68. I can't find it in myself to feel...

I can't find it in myself to feel as though an offense were done to me because someone displays colorful bolts of cloth in a pattern different from the norm. In fact, that a person would actually be upset over something as innocuous as that is absurd to me.

It takes nothing from us nor does it give anything to us. It is benign, harmless and without consequence outside of the imagination.

[ceile]

71. I have no opinion.

It's a piece of material. Fly it (or don't) however you chose.

[GoneOffShore]

72. I just don't get this veneration of "The Flag"

Never have, never will. And the desire to plaster it on every surface imaginable.

Public buildings, government offices - yes.

Car dealerships, filling stations - No.

US Customs, DHS cars - yes.

Ambulances, school buses, private cars - No.

Don't you know where you live? Is "The Flag" some sort of magical talisman that's going to protect you from the influence of "Evil Foreigners"?
Or is it just a way to stop thinking?

I haven't had a flag, flag decal, flag pin, flag sticker, flag t-shirt or flag anything for fifty years. Probably because there seems to be something vaguely creepy about the flag worship that seems so rampant in this country.

[sniffa]

76. thank you for this thread - so many ignores to add

:bounce:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

84. I think it's disgusting that people have to ask.

The question is an equivalent of pissing on the flag.

[paparush]

88. Who gives a sh*t. Its an empty symbol. Just like religion. There is nothing real behind it.

Its used only to motivate the young and weak minded to do the will of the strong and powerful.

[Zookeeper]

94. I would ask why a person with such strong feelings for his...

home country is living here?

The display looks like it is meant to antagonize others.

[Emit]

96. I live in Reno, and, considering where this bar/restaurant is located

in all honesty, it is likely not meant to antagonize others.

The Wells Avenue area where this occurred has had an influx of hispanic grocery stores, restaurants, bars and other retail stores in recent years:

http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2002/02/11/7789.php

http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/06/14/73104.php?sp1=rgj&sp2=umbrella&sp3=umbrella&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=umbrella

Most of the signs in that area are written in Spanish with an English subtitle, if any.

In this case, it is more likely that the owner of the business erred out of ignorance.

And, for what it's worth, I have driven by that establishment probably five times in the last two weeks and it never dawned on me that the order of the flag might be offensive to some. It's so heavily hispanic in that area that it was unrecognizable in the larger scheme of things. That being said, it is not surprising that this Vet took exception. The VA Hospital and offices are only a few blocks away from this location. (I lived one block away from this area and was smack dab in the middle of a heavily Hispanic/Veteran population -- and I can tell a few stories about each groups.)

[Zookeeper]

99. The video was down when I tried to watch it...

So, I don't have the whole story. Thanks for your input.

[Emit]

101. Try this link

http://www.krnv.com/Global/story.asp?S=7162515

[Zookeeper]

140. Thanks. I think the Vet would have better made his point...

if he hadn't wadded-up the flag as he stormed away. Too bad he didn't calmly talk with the store owner and explain why it upset him, also.

[Robson]

143. I agree

It is always better to present an image that is rational, reasonable and objective than to create negative vibes with anger. Better he had spoke with him and folded the flag than to storm away with a balled up flag.

[Robson]

97. Bingo

The true test of objectivity to principle of fellow DU posters would be the response if there was a similar news story where a business owner flew a confederate flag above the US flag in similar fashion, and an outraged customer tore it down.

The intent was to antagonize others.

[Emit]

100. I disagree. See my post #96. I really think it was ignorance that would lead this Hispanic

Business man to do this.

[Robson]

113. I agree it is possible

It is possible that the businessman could have been ignorant of his actions. I've never heard him say anything about it one way or the other. Although as a citizen he should be much more aware of traditions and customs than a visitor.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

105. Maybe he figured he was getting more business from Mexican-Americans...

Than from white-supremacists.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

110. Confederate flag brings up racism and was the symbol for the "Old South"that included Jim Crow

What has Mexico done to us?

[mudesi]

119. What a crock

The jingoism in this thread is disgusting. Why can't someone be proud of both his home country and his adoptive country?

God forbid they offend the rabid nationalistic cheerleaders.

[Zookeeper]

131. Perhaps the flag-hanger is the rabid nationalistic cheerleader...

Americans don't have a monopoly on that, you know.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

134. Maybe.

But there's no reason to suspect so.

[mudesi]

141. He didn't have to fly the American flag at all, now did he?

And even if he hadn't flown the American flag, the outrage over this is pathetic and sad, and something that a conservative/Republican/freeper would obsess over.

Sometimes I think jingoism is worse than racism.

[Gormy Cuss]

161. If he hadn't flown the U.S. flag at all, there'd be no violation of flag etiquette.

That's the part of the discussion that keeps getting lost. To people who do understand the internationally recognized symbolism of having the country's flag flown under another it is an affront, and many current or past military members have had it drilled into their heads. I know flag etiquette from Scouting and was trained to call it flag etiquette, not flag law.

Nothing justifies Mr. Private Citizen tearing down the Mexican flag. As someone noted upthread, simply telling the store owner why this was sending the wrong message would have been a far more effective way to handle it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. Ah yes.

The "iffin you ain't like me then hang from a tree" argument.

[Zookeeper]

130. Oh yeah. It's exactly like that...

'Way to oversimplify, Born. :eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

135. It is exactly like that.

This "America first or get the hell out shit" is exactly like that.

No oversimplification involved.

[Zookeeper]

138. You first equated it with lynching...

I think people should live where their hearts are. It's not unreasonable to think that someone who hangs the flag of his home country above the flag of the country in which he resides, is expressing a preference or loyalty. And/or trying to antagonize people given the current heated debate about illegal immigration.

Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But, raising the question doesn't deserve being met with knee-jerk accusations of racism, or trying to somehow piggy-back off of the suffering of African-Americans in this country.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

155. I'm equating racism with racism.

It's all the same shit.

[Zookeeper]

162. I know plenty of "Hispanics" who have skin as fair as mine....

I think the whole racism argument is ridiculous, frankly.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

163. Yes, yes.

And I'm sure you've got many black friends.

What's ridiculous is your idea that hispanic people are any less American than you are.

[Zookeeper]

166. You sure have a way of imposing your thoughts on other...

people without having a clue as to who they are or what they believe.

Not an endearing or intelligent quality, Born.

(BTW, Since when is "Hispanic" a race? Hispanics are Caucasian and/or indigenous to Latin America and the Southwest and/or have African heritage. I always viewed Hispanics as Caucasian until visiting DU and finding out that they are all "Brown." How much discrimination have you personally experienced as a Hispanic? I have an extended family member with a Hispanic surname who takes advantage of hiring preferences for his company, but his family left Spain, spent one generation in Mexico, then moved to the U.S. He is as "white" as I am. Your attempts to lump together a very large and diverse group of people in order to evoke outrage and pity is just pathetic and cheap. It puts you on a par with people like Pat Buchanan.)

Signing off to tend to business.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

169. Hey...

"You sure have a way of imposing your thoughts on other..."

I'm not the one who thinks you should leave the country because you've got a different opinion.

"BTW, Since when is "Hispanic" a race?"

Since as long as american WASPs have been using them as ethnic scapegoats. See for example Lou Dobbs, the Minutemen, Klan lynchings, Operation Wetback, Zoot Suit Riots, and so on.

All racism.

"How much discrimination have you personally experienced as a Hispanic? "

Zero, if I actually were hispanic, I suspect it'd be extensive.

"Your attempts to lump together a very large and diverse group of people in order to evoke outrage and pity is just pathetic and cheap."

Your outrage over the Mexican flag is pathetic and xenophobic.

"It puts you on a par with people like Pat Buchanan."

I was thinking the same of you, for obvious reasons.

[siri2k]

102. Sounds like an issue the rightwing would raise to distract from real...

concerns, such as the Bush veto of SCHIP. :eyes:
BTW, I vote 'expression of free speech.'

[Jed Dilligan]

114. It actually bothers me when the state flag flies below the US flag

I'm Californian first, American second.

[eagler]

115. It's a misunderstanding, case closed.

[Chovexani]

128. I see two colorful pieces of fabric flying beside each other

People really ought to calm the fuck down with the batshit nationalism.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

136. Should these be illegal, or a matter of free expression?

Doesn't this also violate the US Flag Code? Not to mention several fashion codes.

However, these monstrosities are allowed and a flag flown higher than the American flag is not?

That's just silly.

[mcscajun]

146. I think those pants should be illegal anywhere

...outside a circus ring. Pure Barnum and Bailey stuff. :rofl:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

148. They are horrible, aren't they?

Get this, they're sold at an outdoor gear store.

They only thing I can come up with is they're for scaring bears away from your campsite. :shrug:

[mcscajun]

149. Well, I'd bet even Cheney wouldn't mistake you for a bird in *that* getup.

:rofl:

[Dukkha]

137. I find plastic made in China flags on SUVs more offensive

since they're usually tattered and soiled and shown no respect.

[eagler]

142. I fear this incident is only the beginning of a national boil

about to pop.

[FyurFly]

151. This is only the beginning and will get much worse n/t

[Emit]

153. Reported on our local Reno news -- the owner is getting death threats now. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

156. "Patriotism is the most foolish of passions, and the passion of fools."

Schopenhauer

See my tagline for further thoughts.

[AuntPatsy]

158. free expression n/t