Blind people: Hybrid cars pose hazard

[shain from kane]

BALTIMORE --Gas-electric hybrid vehicles, the status symbol for the environmentally conscientious, are coming under attack from a constituency that doesn't drive: the blind.

Because hybrids make virtually no noise at slower speeds when they run solely on electric power, blind people say they pose a hazard to those who rely on their ears to determine whether it's safe to cross the street or walk through a parking lot.
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The tests - admittedly unscientific - involved people standing in parking lots or on sidewalks who were asked to signal when they heard several different hybrid models drive by.

"People were making comments like, 'When are they going to start the test?' And it would turn out that the vehicle had already done two or three laps around the parking lot," Stein said.
-----------------------
Officials with the Baltimore-based National Federation of the Blind are quick to point out that they're not advocating a return to gas guzzlers. They'd just like the fuel-efficient hybrids to make some noise.

NFB President Marc Maurer said he received an e-mail from an environmentalist who suggested that the members of his group should be the first to drown when sea levels rise from global warming.

"I don't want to pick that way of going, but I don't want to get run over by a quiet car, either," Maurer said.
-------------------
"One of the many benefits of the Prius, besides excellent fuel economy and low emissions, is quiet performance. Not only does it not pollute the air, it doesn't create noise pollution," Kwong said. "We are studying the issue and trying to find that delicate balance."

http://www.bnd.com/239/story/143209.html


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[yurbud]

1. reminds me of the people in wheelchairs who defended Diebold. Any chance this is auto company

astroturf?

[backscatter712]

13. Not sure about this one.

But yeah, I do remember the "disabled advocacy group" that turned out to be astroturf, who shilled for Diebold's voting machines because of their accessibility features.

Don't get me wrong. I think that whatever solution we come up with should have accessibility features (I'm a fan of PunchScan, but maybe a system could be built that say had a touchscreen and accessibility features, that finished by printing a paper ballot, instead of using DRE.)

but we digress... I don't find it completely off-base to suggest that hybrids and electric cars be built with noisemakers that enable the blind to hear them coming.

[yurbud]

41. drivers could always brake when they see blind person crossing street

[liberaldemocrat7]

57. The answer to quiet cars does not come from having them make noise.

I drive an electric motorcycle. I'm glad it makes very little noise. We do not need to introduce noise pollution back into the environment.

People who cannot see can cross at the corner and not in the middle of the block. The traffic signal could send a beep or some type of radio signal to the person with a cane to cross the street or to send a signal when the traffic moves and the person cannot cross. The driver then must observe yellow and red lights to slow down and stop. Noone has any business to cross the street in the middle of the block.

This will allow fully electric vehicles and hybrid vehicles to run silent and still allow people who cannot see to cross at the corner with a traffic light.

[yurbud]

59. you could put motion detectors on the blind people and airbags

[KoKo]

65. I wondered that, also. Handicapped Association taken over by the RW

who insisted that DRE's were the only way vision impaired would be able to vote...therefore everyone must vote on DRE.. Turns out DRE's harder for handicapped to vote on by even our local Association for the Blind refused to come out against DRE.

This sounds similar.

[nxylas]

66. More likely the oil industry

The auto industry doesn't care if it makes its money from conventional or hybrid cars. The oil industry has more to lose.

[bryant69]

2. That's a wierd story

I guess once again you have to remember the law of unintended consequences.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[shain from kane]

39. If someone is conserving fossil fuels, it has to be a blind person. He has to walk, take public

transportation, or buddy up with someone. Yet, according to the article, he is in danger when others start to conserve fossil fuels.

[NeedleCast]

3. People Will Find a Reason to Bitch

Human nature I guess.

[MrCoffee]

25. not being able to see seems like a perfectly legitimate reason to bitch.

[NeedleCast]

33. Except that's not what the OP is about at all

This isn't blind people bitching about being blind, it's blind people bitching about something that is so unlikely to cause their death that it *SHOULDN'T* even be raised as a concern. I mean, if you can dig up some stats for me that show an increase of blind people being pasted to the grills of hybrid vehicles as opposed to non-hybrid vehicles, then maybe I'd be more willing to listen to this particular whine-fest.

This makes about as much sense as people who won't get on a plane because they're afraid to die in a crash despite the fact that statistics show they're a HELL of a lot more likely to die (per-capita) in an auto accident, or in any of thousands of other ways, than in a plane crash.

[Lyric]

4. I was just about to post this, too.

There has to be a way to fix this issue--perhaps adjusting the engines so that they make a "whirring" noise like a large fan? That wouldn't be as annoying as gas engine noise, but it could be loud enough for a blind person to safely hear it in time--especially if local governments add that sort of noise-recognition to special education classes for the blind.

[urgk]

5. A question for the advocates raising this issue to begin with --

How many times is
A) a hybrid
B) going to encounter a blind person
C) outside of an intersection
D) or, in such a way that the driver of the hybrid puts the blind person at risk of being hit?

And, are those situations a great enough risk to add noise pollution back into the world?

This seems more a matter of informing blind people of the dangers than a matter of making the car companies adapt.

[frazzled]

19. Bingo

Until we see evidence of drivers of hybrid cars wantonly and recklessly mowing down blind people, this seems to me just another anti-hybrid welfare-queen-type story meant to defend the conventional gasoline engine against hybrids.

I'm not insensitive to the fact that the blind depend on listening to know when to step into the street before crossing, but the time interval from stepping off the curb because you don't hear a sound and a driver reacting to someone with a cane doing so would seem sufficient to prevent harm. (Bicycles don't make noise either.) Also, hybrids are running on (silent) electric only when coasting or at very low speeds, so we're not talking about a car going 30 miles an hour through an intersection and colliding with a blind person who has not heard it.

It IS incumbent upon the hybrid driver (of which I am one) to exert an extra amount of vigilance in certain situations to avoid issues with drivers and pedestrians not hearing them. Those of us who drive hybrids know this and should remind ourselves of it frequently. I have not yet run into a blind person or another vehicle.

[KittyWampus]

46. Intersections need to have automated voice indicators. "Red light" "Cross Now" "Yellow Light" "Wait"

how would that be?

[bobbolink]

48. Many *do* have a system like that. It doesn't STOP CARS from entering an intersection when there

are pedestrians in the intersectiion.

Actually, there's another thread about a pedestrian being run over.

Blind People Would Just Like To Have The Ability To KNOW If A Car Is Near Them.

It's really not so unreasonable, is it????

[urgk]

64. Yes, it's unreasonable.

If it means increasing noise pollution, then yes. The problem here, as I see it, is the automatic assumption that everyone else should compensate for the few who need it. And the accompanying assumption that making the cars noisier in some capacity is the only solution. How about somebody coming up with a plan for some sort of personal warning device for blind people, rather than taking incredibly helpful technology and making it less helpful? Like other posters have said, give the cars a silent chip and equip blind people with a proximity-triggered chip-reader that only warns them and only as needed.

[NeedleCast]

21. Your Bit of Common Sense

Will not stop people from believe their lives are being put at risk.

If I were just a wee bit more tin-foil-ier I'd think this was some sort of stunt by big oil to scare people off hybrids. This sort of crap just make roll my eyes in disbelief that there are actually people out there worried about this sort of thing. I mean really, if this is at the the top of someone's list of shit they're worried about, I'd suggest just staying home with the blanket pulled over your head and all the lights and ceiling fans off (lest a fan fall and chop them to bits).

[zanne]

6. I wonder about animals, too.

Especially cats. Mine are great at crossing streets because cars make so much noise. I wonder if the vibration would be enough to let them know a car was coming. I LOVE the fact that they're quiet.

[T Wolf]

9. Animals' hearing is probably good enough to hear. If my cats can hear

and recognize my car from the bsement when they are asleep, I don't think a hybrid car will cause them any problem.

[ProfessorGAC]

50. My Wife Says That My Dog. . .

. . .gets up and runs to the basement (our garage in down there) at least 10 seconds before she hears the garage door opener. That means i'm over a block away when the dog hears the car. Since i'm not the only car, the dog not only hears the car, but knows which car it is.

So, i'd guess you're probably correct about that.
The Professor

[Beausoleil]

28. I'm not worried about our cats

They seem to hear the Prius just fine.

But I did startle the shit out of a couple of pigeons in the road one time. I was only about two feet from them by the time they saw the car and flew off. Shoulda seen the look on their faces!

Since then, I have considered that this could be a problem for some animals. And now blind people, too.

[Deja Q]

36. The loud ones with motors haven't stopped critters from being turned into splattered roadkill.

Maybe all animals are just deaf?

:hide:

[Touchdown]

45. Cat's can hear the electric current in your walls.

They have the most sensitive hearing of all land predators. They'll hear a Prius. The tire movement alone makes enough noise for humans to hear.

[Bitwit1234]

7. I really do believe we have to help the Blind BUT

Their leaders are obnoxious....when I worked for the State we had a soft drink machine in our employee break/lunch room. It belonged to us as some company had given it to us.

Some how the Blind Industry in our state found out. Since we had to give them 40% of the profit we made on the soft drink machines we had in our lobbies, they were making a lot of money.

Why did they want out little machine, where we took the money to refill the machine, so we could buy sodas at 1/3 the price Pepsi cost. Our man anger said no. They went to the governor mind you and we had to get rid of the machine and put in the Pepsi Machine which cost at that time 50 cent per bottle. Because of the unfairness, Pepsi let us have the soft drinks at cost and they only cost 35 cents. This wasn't good enough for the Blind Industry so we had to raise them back to 50 cents.

Never mind. The public made such a mess that most of the branch offices petitioned to have them removed from the lobby and we got permission. So they lost money anyway. Because employees started bringing in their own drinks and putting them in the refrigerator. Then Pepsi took the machine out they said they had to make a profit of so much or they couldn't be left in, which is what we really wanted. So all that money the Blind would have had went down the drain in most of the offices, because the Blind Industry guy was greedy.

[demnan]

8. The way people drive in general

I don't blame the blind for wanting some warning of an approaching car.

[BrklynLib at work]

10. HUH?????

I agree with URGK.

[zalinda]

11. This is understandable

The solution would be to put something outside the car that would make a noise that is unlike anything around them. Something simple could be done like putting something in the wheel well that would make a clicking sound, ala a card clicking against a bicycle spoke. This would also tell the person how fast the car was moving.

zalinda

[Phoonzang]

12. If every car was a hybrid

can you imagine how that would sound during rush hour? Kind of like a giant cicada was hovering over the city... :)

[shain from kane]

40. A rush hour every 17 years? n/t

[Phoonzang]

49. It took me almost 17 minutes to get what you were saying! n/t

[shain from kane]

52. Perhaps you're more familiar with the 13-year variety.

From Wikipedia -------

"Most cicadas go through a life cycle that lasts from two to five years. Some species have much longer life cycles, e.g. the Magicicada goes through a 17- or occasionally 13-year life cycle. These long life cycles are an adaptation to predators such as the cicada killer wasp and praying mantis, as a predator could not regularly fall into synchrony with the cicadas. Both 13 and 17 are prime numbers, so while a cicada with a 15-year life cycle could be preyed upon by a predator with a three- or five-year life cycle, the 13- and 17-year cycles allow them to stop the predators falling into step."


Who knew that insects were aware of prime numbers?

[DaveJ]

55. Cars in futuristic movies always make some techy sound

I'm fairly sure something like this will be installed on electric cars in the future.

[BoneDaddy]

14. I am not blind and perhaps if I were I would have a different perspective

but is it me or does every special interest group have something to bitch about? All about me, me, me.

[bobbolink]

24. "I am not blind and perhaps if I were I would have a different perspective"

You spoke the truth, but I detect another agenda.

Of COURSE, if we would all be willing to walk in the shoes of others, we wouldn't always be at war with each other, would we?

Would that take all the fun out of it?

"All about me, me, me."

ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY! What would some idiot gain by being able to be more secure in getting around in a sightless world?????

Compassion.

Try it.

It actually leads to more peace.

Now, I'm sure you're ready to pick up a weapon of some kind, and hit me with it. Right?

[BoneDaddy]

30. Do you mean pick up a weapon like you just did?

I love the people, like yourself, who talk about "compassion" but have no problem lecturing or slamming others cause they feel justified in doing so. Utter and total hypocrites.

My point was simply illustrating that here is an invention (hybrid cars)that might be one of the most singularly effective ways to manage pollution and contribute to saving the planet and instead of being lauded for their abilities they are getting attacked by groups representing the blind because they are too silent.

[bobbolink]

43. What you said about blind people was unspeakably MEAN.

Yes, maybe you need to walk in those shoes and experience just what it means to be BLIND.

And, buddy, you were the one lecturing, and slamming FIRST...slamming blind people who simply don't want to be run over by cars they can't hear, as "me, me, me".

That's MEAN in the extreme.

If you're calling yourself "liberal", you can take another look at the label of hypocrite you want to toss around.

[BoneDaddy]

60. Oh my god

I was MEAN. Why? because I think that their complaint compared to the overwhelming GOOD of hybrid cars on this issue overshadows their issue? My point is that if it is a legitimate point, do something about other than whine, cry and moan about it. Enter into dialogue and stop acting like a victim.

I didn't throw out the Mr. or Mrs compassionate morality superiority complex...you did. And you were not compassionate to me so stop being a hypocrite. Seems your compassion is only for those you champion. As for me, I am liberal on some issues and others, like these, whrere the whining few interfere with legitimate progress, I draw the line at looking what is important for the public good vs a small groups interest. Do I think that some R and D to alleviate the "silent" aspect of these vehicles is a good thing, sure I do, but does the need of these few supercede the incredible good of these vehicles...no I dont.

Bicycles don't make noise either, should we outlaw them too?

[renie408]

15. They need to put those little whistler things that are supposed to keep deer

from running into your car at night on hybrid cars.

[shain from kane]

16. Like ringtones. New industry. Each driver could make his/her own choice. Express yourself.

[IDemo]

23. How about a straight piped Harley tone? n/t

[hlthe2b]

17. technology can solve this... it is not just a concern for blind people

especially given the increase in auto-pedestrian accidents in recent years. Sound has not solved that one, that's for sure. But all of us will be impacted and have to adjust to loss of the sound of approaching vehicles as a means to aid in avoiding hazards. Whether it be a vibrational or unique sound induced technology, I can't imagine it could not be solved--and it should.

[MH1]

27. Non-audible signal from auto, receiver in blind person's cane.

Wouldn't that do it?

The tech COULD be reliable enough. If people want it bad enough.

[Johonny]

29. That's what I was thinking too

It would seem the addition of more audio/visual cross walks (a crossing signal that bad both a sound and a color change) and smart canes with motion sensors tuned to pick up automobiles would both be better solutions. Since the first one would benefit both sighted and the blind and the second protects the blind from both the small percentage of hybrids and the very large percentage of non-hybrids. Making your hybrid whirl is unlikely to have any effect on a problem that to date is only a problem on paper.

[Richard Steele]

58. Not a bad idea. NM

[rox63]

18. My mom is blind, and she has the white and red "blind cane" with her when she's out and about

When she goes to cross a street, she always holds the cane out straight in front of her. Drivers are supposed to stop when they see that cane, to let the person cross. She has been getting around a busy downtown area very well for several years, and has never been hit by a hybrid. But she does occasionally come across an ignorant driver that doesn't realize what the white cane with the red tip means. Some of them have angrily yelled at her, "Are you blind or something?" She tells them very nicely that yes, she is blind.

Edit to correct typo.

[blondeatlast]

37. I'd love to see those driver's faces when she tells them!

I'm blind in my left eye and occasionally run into people because of it and more than once, I've heard the same. FWIW, they have to be very, very close already for them to go unnoticed--closer than they need to be.

I treasure every face I've seen after I told them that "no, I couldn't see you, I do apologize," and the reason I didn't see them.

[momster]

20. My Car Freaks Out

all sorts of people when the engine stops. I've had a lot of passengers say 'oh, my, what happened?" when we are sitting at a stop light and there's no engine noise.

Haven't hit a blind person yet and I've been driving my Prius since '03. The ones you have to look out for are the 100% able people who cross against the lights, at dusk, all in black, carrying their 3 month old babies and listening to Ipods while wearing dark glasses. Some combination or other has been responsible for several pedestrian deaths in the Greater D.C. area over the past 6 months.

[eppur_se_muova]

22. Put a stick in the spokes ... nt

[bobbolink]

26. How interesting that most replies are an attack on blind people.

"Liberal"?????

[urgk]

63. Most?

Hm. I thought I knew what the word meant. But, apparently I was mistaken. I thought it meant something like "a majority of," but evidently it means something more akin to "a smattering of."

Live and learn.

[MadHound]

31. Well gee, how hard would it be to hook up a low powered electronic noise maker

Problem solved.

[uncle ray]

34. how about people driving just watch where the hell they are going?

as far as i know, unless technology has really taken a leap while i was asleep last night, every hybrid car, or gasoline powered for that matter, has a living human running the controls, a human with at least one reasonably well functioning EYE. i propose we encourage, heck, let's make it a LAW that if you are operating a car, you have to watch where you are going! it's not like blind people go darting around all fast like, all i've encountered were fairly show and deliberate in their motions.

[bobbolink]

44. So would you be willing to risk your life on the hope that all would watch where they're going?

[Xithras]

35. Doesn't even need to be electronic.

It only needs to make noise when the car is moving, which means airflow around the vehicle. It would be simple to route a bit of that air through some kind of noisemaker.

[Canuckistanian]

32. I just heard about this about 10 seconds before I saw this post

I was going to post something about it.

[HuffleClaw]

38. i suggest elevator music!

seriously though, i read a sci-fi book a while back that featured ultraquiet electric cars that were mandated by law to make a 'motor sound' to alert pedestrians of their being nearby. sounds like a fine idea to me.

[KamaAina]

42. This reminds me of when wheelchair curb cuts interfered with cane travel

there was no curb, you see, and so no way for the blind person to know where the sidewalk ended and the street began.

An intractable dilemma? Hardly. Curb cuts (and the edges of subway platforms, etc.) now have bumps or ridges built into them to alert the white cane user to their presence. Problem solved.

[Tesha]

68. And similar short "rumble patches" cut into the streets near intersections...

And similar short "rumble patches" cut into the streets near
intersections would probably benefit both the blind pedestrians
and some sleeping car drivers. If they were timed correctly,
they could even demarc that dreaded "do I go or do I stop???"
zone when the light turns yellow.

Tesha

[Touchdown]

47. Reminds me of when AT&T switched to fiber optics in the 60s.

There was no "hiss" on the line because of digital sound and light waves. People thought their phones were dead, didn't make as many calls and complained. So AT&T added an artificial "hiss" on the network so people would know that their phone was off hook.

[Drifter]

51. Similar is the fake sound that ...

digital cameras now typically make.

Unless there is some sort of "shutter" sound, people could not tell if the camera was doing anything.

Cheers
Drifter

[Fleshdancer]

53. Drivers are responsible for making sure pedestrians are out of the way

A reverse beep can be used, but for just driving around, I don't understand the necessity of having the car make additional noise.

[MadHound]

54. Because all too many drivers don't take that responsibility seriously

Hell, I'm a sighted person, and have on more than one occasion had to go diving out of the way while walking, all because the idiot of the wheel wasn't paying attention. If I hadn't been sighted, I would have been dead.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

56. Put those little whistler things on them like you do so deer can hear you coming

Tragedy averted and hybrids are in the clear.

Problem solved. :)

[in_cog_ni_to]

61. There's a blind man here who lives a few blocks away from me. He's lived in the same house

for AT LEAST 30 years (my sister use to be his neighbor....30 years ago). He takes a walk everyday with his seeing eye dog and yesterday they were approaching a corner I was going to turn at (I drive a Prius) and KNOWING people can't hear the Prius at low speeds, I slowed down to see what he and his dog would do and the man pulled back on the dog's harness as I approached which told ME, he either heard me coming or FELT me coming. I am very caution when I approach ANYONE from behind at low speeds because NO ONE can hear the car, but blind people can't see it either, so I take special care. My B-I-L was almost run over by a Prius because he didn't hear it coming and walked out in front of it.

[bobbolink]

67. If everyone was as concerned and considerate as you, there wouldn't be as much of a dangerous

problem.

Unfortunately, courtesy and consideraton has gone out of style.

[petronius]

62. What do blind people do about bicycles?

:shrug: