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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 09:06 AM
Original message
U.S. protests shrink while antiwar sentiment grows
"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Crowds at antiwar rallies in Washington have dwindled even as U.S. opinion has turned against the war in Iraq, as organizers feud and participants question the effectiveness of the street protests.

Rival antiwar groups, which in years past jointly sponsored massive rallies on the National Mall, have promoted separate protests recently or decided to steer clear of the capital altogether.

The thinning crowds stand in contrast to the antiwar protests of the Vietnam era, which grew as the war progressed."

More:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071003/ts_nm/usa_iraq_protests_dc_1;_ylt=AkMVGFgDijWhlsfmkPS7jEAE1vAI



Here's what I found interesting:

"Antiwar rallies drew hundreds of thousands of people at the war's start in 2003, although only 23 percent of Americans then said the invasion was a mistake, according to a USA Today/Gallup Poll. That figure is now 58 percent."


Funny how they (MSM) tried to keep the numbers low back then, but now they say "hundreds of thousands" when they want to point out that protests are down in numbers.

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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. War Protest Draws Small Crowd
War Protest Draws Small Crowd
Participants Cite Public Apathy in Low Turnout for Rally at the Capitol

By Carol D. Leonnig
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, September 30, 2007; Page A17

Hundreds of demonstrators, including students and families, rallied and marched in downtown Washington yesterday to protest the war in Iraq, complaining that the Democratic-controlled Congress has failed to do the public's bidding and bring U.S. troops home.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/29/AR2007092901579.html
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. We've got protest fatigue. nt
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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. There is like one every weekend here in DC. n/t
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Yes, I live in the DC area. In the run up to the war there were so many protests and vigils...
my friends and I started taking turns.

And then others got ticked off by ANSWER's not letting Michael Lerner speak or their piling of other issues onto the protests. I showed up at one of the Big Ones and arrived to hear speakers talking about global prostitution. An important cause, but I'd come to protest against the war.
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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
4. This is not exactly true
The encampment march on the 29th was planned around the same time as the ANSWER march and was a cumulative effort as the marchers visited many towns before they ended in Washington. Because the two marches just happened to be 2 weeks apart, people living outside the D.C. area obviously couldn't all make it to both marches. The media refused to count how many were at the march on September 15, which understandably had a larger crowd and probably was around 100,000.

I know a few people who made both marches here in the D.C. area. Believe me, thousands of people were there on the 15th.
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kas125 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
5. Then that's just more reason for every single one of us to get out there
on October 27th, which the planners want to be the biggest demonstration in history -
http://www.oct27.org/sites/oct27.org/files/oct27/home-final.html
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
6. Why I don't go to those protests this time around.
(FWIW, I really won't be moved by comments telling me I "should" go anyway--because I don't agree with them. Don't take that the wrong way, it is what is is, and nothing more).

When INTERNATIONAL ANSWER sponsors one of those rallies in DC and elsewhere, with their professionally printed signs, their professionally constructed stage, their high end sound system, and their agenda of tiresome, boring, fringe-of-the-fringe people (not all of them, but for every GEM, you have to endure twenty turds at the mike who are LOUSY speakers using SouthParkian catch phrases and supporting way-out shit) it DILUTES the thing that "I" care about, that thing being ending the war. And it also is a sleazy way of associating people who really aren't supporters with their halfassed causes.

Now, if people want to go to these marches, fine--more power. I just don't like being forcefully affiliated with other efforts.

I do give the little peace groups of five to twenty folk with the home made signs on the side of the road, and a focused, singular purpose of protesting the war, props--I buy those guys beverages (cold in summer, warm in winter). But I just don't like the idea of tossing EVERY gripe into the pot and having a bigass protest. It dilutes the important ones. IMO. YMMV.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. YES! Same old tiring on-the-fringe speakers. And they get all the news coverage. nt
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. Free Mumia!
Last time, I got stuck marching with the goddamn commies. (no, not socialists, actual commies)
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. That shit--and it is a real bait-and-switcheroo of total shit--turns people off, dunnit? nt
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. Indeed
I'm also not going to any protests what spout anti-Zionist rhetoric, personally.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
7. From what I have heard there is alot of stupid in fighting
Different groups fighting for the lime light, refusing to work with other certain groups.

In Sept there were 3 separate marches. Imagine if they had all stop the childishness, worked together and held one rally? Apparently they don't get it that most of us have jobs and families. We don't live in a small European Country where you can ride a train for an hour there and back.

My 17 year old and I sat on a bus for 9 hours, got off, marched and worked as barriers between the kooks and the VFP guys, got back on the bus, drove 9 hours back, then drove around Boston dropping people off because public transportation doesn't run all night.

Oh yes, and it cost us a couple hundred dollars to do it (I am a single working-poor mother).

Could I do it every week....ummm No.

My advice to those people fighting against the War? Check your egos at the door, work together and perhaps the turn outs will get bigger.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
9. I think the regular, Saturday protests outside federal buildings give a good message. nt
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SteelPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
11. I think people are giving up
The difference I sense these days is that while most people are against the war (nearly everyone I know) and against the administration (even most conservatives I know), they're slipping more into apathy. The general feeling is that with this administration, protests are meaningless.

This is an administration that has lied to much and so often, and simply doesn't give a flying fuck what the people think. People, at least the opposition, is feeling that there's no point wasting a sunday to protest when the President has basically said he doesn't give a shit about what we think, and even our own representatives don't have the gumption to fight him.

Why go walk the streets if there's no point to it?

That's the feeling I think.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Maybe Norquist was right - the opposition has been neutered
"Any farmer will tell you that certain animals run around and are unpleasant. But when they've been 'fixed,' then they are happy and sedate. They are contented and cheerful."

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Nawww. Most people oppose the war. They don't need to march to prove it anymore.
It's like apple pie--most people like it.

And they sure as hell don't want to have to listen to that "United for Peace and Justice" buffet of whines to get to the "stop the war" theme.

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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. It seems that in the current climate..
a national economic strike is about the only thing that might get their attention.

There have been some economic strikes on a small scale waged by local immigrant communities in response to the draconian anti-immigrant policies that some communities here in Virginia have begun to adopt, and they seem to be meeting with some success.
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SlowDownFast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
12. You can thank A.N.S.W.E.R.
Edited on Wed Oct-03-07 10:51 AM by utopiansecretagent
for a good part of that.

No respectable politician or politically savvy protester wants anything to do with groups who can't stay on message regarding ending the war in Iraq.

Free Mumia/Palestine/Cuba etc is not the way to get Sam & Susie Citizen involved in the anti-war movement...

Fuck ANSWER and anyone who supports their bullshit hijacking/dilution of the anti-war movement.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. So...which protests have you organized?
ANSWER does not "hijack" the anti-war movement. It is a left ideological movement that has always opposed the war, as well as having a bunch of other issues that concern it.

Fuck ANSWER? Get back to me once you've gotten off your ass and organized a major anti-war protest.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Yes, they DO hijack the anti war movement. It's why people don't go to their lameass protests
in such great numbers. The war still matters. But they're marginal, and people know it. No one wants to be trapped between a Chavez-cheering crowd and a Castro Sez Fuck America bunch. or Free Mumia. Or any of the other idiotic horseshit they push up on their stage.

And I have some bad news for you--it isn't mandated that people 'must' organize protests to 'prove' to you or anyone else that ANSWER's efforts suck. They just don't. Even if you insist otherwise.

I think Tiny Tim is a shitty musician. Does that mean I have to write a symphony to prove the point?

Some truths are simply self-evident. Anyone with the essential capability to discern "what's good" and "what sucks" can see what gives with that bunch. ANSWER is a bunch of fringers, who found ONE THING that most people agreed with, and they rode it like a rented mule.

:eyes:
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. They entice marchers with an anti-war message, then go onto other topics for the speakers. nt
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SlowDownFast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. No, I won't be 'getting back' to you.
First, because you support ANSWER, and I wouldn't want you or ANSWER folks like you anywhere near - for fear of sabotaging/hijacking an otherwise productive, on-message protest.

Secondly, ANSWER would just swoop in anyhow (what with all that money from Workers World Party ) and secure the permit (as always) as soon as they had whiff of a 'major' protest forming.

Read more on ANSWER's benefactors by David Corn:
http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/behind-the-placards/3458/?page=

Fuck ANSWER.

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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. I thought ANSWER did a great job.
Our Boston coordinator was awesome ( and also apparently "hot" according to my daughter)and the people we worked with in "security" were great. Without them I doubt we could have afforded to go. There was a huge turnout and most of the speakers I saw were on the war. I am sure there may have been a few others I didn't see because I was getting ready to march.

Over-all I thought ANSWER did a fantastic job and we plan to march with them again in Boston on the 27th.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
29. Those Maoist morons piss me off.
They, along with the Anarchists, seem to be what the MSM focuses on in order to send the message that the protests are dominated by Commie wackos.

Fuck them.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
15. "Funny" as in the fuckers manipulate
everything and when everybody(but the koolaid soaked) catches on what will their revelevance be?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
17. FIFTY-SIX PERCENT of Americans opposed the Iraq invasion in 2/03! This article is wrong!
Edited on Wed Oct-03-07 11:12 AM by Peace Patriot
Feb. 2003. NYT poll. Other polls put it at 54-55%.

I was following this very closely at the time, because it was the most important strategic question for the left: Were most Americans brainwashed, stupid 'sheeple'--requiring mostly education and deprogamming--or were most of them still peace-minded and progressive but unable to be heard--requiring action to hearten and empower the majority?

The article ALSO greatly understates current opposition to the war, which has risen to 70%. They use only Gallup stats--Gallup is heavily weighted toward fascist views, and often the outlier poll (--way to the right, compared to all other polls).

The use of only Gallup polls in the article is a red flag. Do. not. trust. one. word. of. this.

I think the political establishment is very worried about the American people. Witness its installation of electronic voting systems all over the country, run on 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by rightwing Bushite corporations, with virtually no audit/recount controls, and other unprecedented fascist measures to curtail civil rights, destroy the Constitution, monopolize the "news" with pro-war fascist crapola, and shove one fascist policy after another down our throats, as quickly as possible, with the Diebold II Congress.

The lack of antiwar demonstrations, and relatively low attendance (considering the provocation), is a BAD sign, from the fascist perspective. For one thing, it deprives them of the premier photo op for their delusionary narrative that the U.S. is a legitimately governed democracy. ('See, we're not a fascist tyranny! Anybody can protest here!') It also deprives them of the opportunity to add people to their lists--people to spy on, people to fire, people to deny loans to or target for credit card fraud, people to round up and detain if necessary. (Let us not be naive about what massive domestic spying is FOR.)

But mostly it is a sign of a massively demoralized, sullen, boiling beneath the surface rebellion. It's like when the "native drums" suddenly go quiet.

The American people are actually pretty smart--and far better informed than people give them credit for. They are THINKING, is what they are doing--figuring things out. That's my read on it. They are well aware that we could put a million people on the streets of DC, and nothing would change. Our government has gone deaf to us. There is no way to change things, in the short term. The fascists control the vote counting with 'trade secret' code. (FIFTY PERCENT of California voters--a huge increase--voted by Absentee Ballot in the last election, a strong indication of mistrust of the rigged machines, and something of an unorganized, grass roots boycott of the machines. People are looking for a way around the rigged electronics.) So why waste time, energy, resources and adrenalin protesting the war to the stone deaf, and giving the fascist political establishment a photo op for its heinously deceptive narrative about "freedom and democracy"? Eventually people will figure out--and many have already figured out--that your time is better spent protesting down at your county registrar's office, or state elections office, demanding vote counting that everyone can see and understand, and re-building the fundamental democratic structures and grass roots strength necessary to taking our country back from the war profiteers and global corporate predators who have seized it. There is hope at the state/local level, where ordinary people still have some influence. That is where we must seize back our right to vote.

I think that a serious danger for America's great, peace-minded, justice-minded majority--a majority that the fascists have failed to destroy, and that has only grown with every fascist outrage--will come when they install Emperor Hillary, because I think our corporate rulers' idea is to dampen the American peoples' anger with a liberal-seeming 'victory,' while they consolidate the enormous corporate gains under Bush and prepare for the final looting, and realization of their long term war/oil goal: Iran. They've already hijacked the U.S. military and ensconced it in the Middle East, with the goal of killing Iraqis until they sign over their oil rights. Hillary is totally on board for this, and will institute a military Draft to get it done. Then the shit is going to hit the fan from several different directions: massive rebellion of the youth; economic meltdown ($10 trillion deficit; massive borrowing against Social Security and government pensions coming home to roost, etc.); and also, pending planet-wide ecological collapse--including yet more loss of ocean fisheries--a catastrophic loss of protein--flooding/drought and wild weather impacts of global warming, and much else).

I'm not sure, but either Hillary is going to be blamed for all this, to be followed by installation of Hitler II, or Hillary IS "Hitler II," in the sense that she will not hesitate to use all the fascist powers that Bush/Cheney have pioneered, to crush protest and bring the final boot down on American democracy. I think she may have delusions of being some kind of "neo-liberal"/corporate savior (like her husband, but with powers of torture, detention without trial, massive domestic spying, writing her own laws, etc.) But she is no savior. Saving corporate rule, at this point, means crushing the American people. There can be no detente between the two. The corporate rulers have gone too far. They've ruined everything--our economy, our middle class life, jobs, benefits, health, schools, emergency services, our Constitution, our democracy, our reputation in the world, world peace, and the planet itself. The crisis is so serious--on multiple fronts--that this raging, boiling, seething beneath-the-surface anger of Americans is going to erupt.

The key to our future will be HOW it erupts. Will it be mindless rage and civil disorder--easily crushed? Or will it be focused rage, and a strong, long term determination to get our country back? I sense the latter. I already see many signs of it--not the least of which is the relatively low number of antiwar protests and protest attendees. I DON'T think this has to do with divisions in the antiwar movement. The '60s antiwar movement--and the huge progressive movements of that era (on civil rights, women's rights, gay rights, et al)--were riddled with divisions, often of seering bitterness. Nor does it have to do with, say, all the "issues" at ANSWER protests. (There were plenty of "issues" in the '60s as well.) Nor does it have to do with poor organization--say, ANSWER bringing out a lot of people, but then having speakers harangue them on what some feel are side-issues. I think it has to do with a common realization--among grass roots protest groups, and among the American people in general--of the futility of street protest. Street protest is useless without the power of the vote to back it up. And we have lost the power of the vote to privatized, Bushite-controlled, 'TRADE SECRET' vote counting, with the active complicity and connivance of both the Democratic and Republican parties' leaderships.

THAT is what has to come to consciousness--and IS coming to consciousness among the American people--despite the utter black-holing of this matter by the war profiteering corporate news monopolies, and the blindness and stupidity of many leftist pundits. Our main power as a people is our vote, and it has been quite deliberately taken away from us.

This piece of shit propaganda from Yahoo and Gallup is yet another attempt to demoralize us. But it won't succeed. Democracy is too deeply rooted here--and, as we are slowly finding out, through word of mouth and internet--democracy is breaking out all over South America, a vast sea change in South American politics--with leftist (majorityist) governments elected in Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Chile and soon, Paraguay. Central America will be next (Nicaragua already gone "blue," and Mexico came very close--0.05%--last year). If the South Americans can do it--after all they've suffered of brutal oppression--so can we.



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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Very nicely said. And so true.
This article's sole intent is to suppress future participation in protests.

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
30. I was listening to a BBC call-in program about Burma, the other day, and
this ditzy, U.S.-type, woman anchor kept asking over, and over, and over, and over again--every guest, every caller: "But didn't the protests FAIL?"

She really REALLY wanted to make that point: And she even specified, in some of her formulations of it, that she meant the FAILURE of THE PEOPLE, and the FUTILITY of popular protest.

It was very noticeable and extremely annoying. The BBC is going corporate, I think (even more so than before). And that was the global corporate predator "talking point." The FAILURE of protest. The FAILURE of democracy. The FUTILITY of trying to throw off your shackles.

This truly extraordinary thing had happened in Burma, with millions of people risking their lives for democracy, and many getting killed, and all she could talk about was their FAILURE to bring down the government.

Unbelievable, mendacious close-mindedness and deliberate stupidity.

No protest is ever wasted! Even a lone protester with a sign on a street corner is a potent ikon, in my view, and sends vast ripples through society, reaching far beyond those who witness it.

And millions protesting--whatever the outcome--has tidal waves of impact. It WILL change things. Maybe not today. But eventually.

I do not oppose street protest, at all. But the U.S. is rather a unique situation--both as to its vastness, such a big country, and its multiculturalism--and also as to current conditions, and the specific kinds of disempowerment we have suffered, tailored just for us. Change here may have to occur in a unique way--perhaps with massive action at the polls, both to outvote the machines, where we can, and to protest and change the vote counting process. The internet--our new "Committees of Correspondence"--has also had profound impacts here, more than anywhere (because so many people have computers). We are BEING the media. That is a tremendous development--a circumvention of the war profiteering corporate news monopolies.

Anyway, how I hated that BBC anchor--with her snotty, "But haven't the protests FAILED?"

A democracy movement is a PROCESS. It doesn't begin or end with one set of protests. It sometimes take decades to succeed. And all such movements--however big or small, and however effective in the short term--deserve the highest praise. Just getting people into the streets to protest--in often risky or dangerous circumstances--is a victory. And all those people are changed by that action, and the change ripples through family and friends, and far beyond them. It may inspire some other protest half way round the world. It may inspire somebody twenty years from now. Look at how the anti-Vietnam war protests are still inspiring people, forty years later. Knowing about them gives people THE IDEA that they don't have to put up with unjust war and all this fascist shit. They CAN protest it. They CAN object. They CAN organize. They CAN change things--and, if nothing else, they can provide moral witness against official crime, and help educate people about it.

And of course the powers-that-be would like people to think that protest is futile--and they gleefully marginalize it as much as they can.

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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. I'm angrier than I have been in years, but I'm feeling very discouraged
about demonstrations.

Massive demonstrations BEFORE the war (30,000 turned out in Portland, a figure equal to 10% of the city's population) failed to stop it. The general public doesn't even know there's going to be a demonstration.

I believe that the various anti-war groups need to get their acts together, figure out what they can agree on, and concentrate on those issues alone.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Back in the old days, when people actually walked in the streets....
There were things called FLYERS posted on phone poles and in laundromats and on bulletin boards that everyone passed by, that told people about these events. Humans used to hand out leaflets to tell people about them, too. People used the TELEPHONE to call their friends and let them know, too, and they carpooled to get to the events. Heck, sometimes you'd end up with someone on your lap for a nice long ride.

The media in the old days didn't tout the demos, either.

Now, there's the internet. And if you aren't on the e-mailing list, or if you don't visit the specific websites where this shit is touted, you don't get the word.

Aside from the fact that the demos nowadays are a shmorgasbord of whines, and not just antiwar, and thus, less focused or motivating for many.
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