***Let's Pretend***

[cali]

that articles of impeachment were introduced into the House 4 months ago. Let's assume that the charges were purposely misrepresenting intelligence and conducting illegal warrentless wiretapping. Let's assume that both bush and cheney are included in the articles. Add any other charges you think should be introduced.

What do you think would have happened from that moment?

Where do you think things would stand today?

[cali]

1. What I think:

Impeachment would not have passed the House. There are too many blue dog dems who would have voted against impeaching either bush or cheney. If by some fluke, it had passed and moved to the Senate for a trial, it would have certainly failed there. The result? Hard to say, but I think it's reasonable to suggest that bush would have been both pissed off and emboldened. It's also possible that the procedings would have engendered renewed support for him.

So why am I pro-impeachment despite believing that the results would be less than satisfying? Because if bushco isn't considered to have committed impeachable offenses, who in the future could be? It sets a terrible precedent to not attempt to impeach, regardless of the outcome.

[Postman]

2. The flaw in your assumption is ......

you think there is a functional separation of powers that still exists.

The danger in allowing what has happened to go "unpunished", as it were, has been brought about by many factors.

1) What is a "Democrat"? What do they stand for? Are they pro-Labor Union, pro-welfare state (for those who need it, not the corporations)? Are they anti-Military Industrial Complex? Anti-globalization, pro-socialization, pro-National Health care? If they are not, they're not democrats.

2) Blue Dog Democrats. Why not just call them republicans? They're not "democrats". With democrats like these, who needs republicans?

3) Message Control. Who owns the apparatus to get your message out? The right wing corporations, thats who. So your immediately in the hole and fighting from the low ground in a no-win situation. How many times can the American people be kicked in the ass and punched in the nose at the same time and be convinced its good for them? I'll tell you how many...

Please sir, may I have another...

on edit: but to get to your issue.....The Democrats don't act on impeachment because they know they can't win, politically. If they try to impeach these criminals the press will paint them as being partisan, anti-American traitors. If they start impeachment proceedings and then during the proceedings, low and behold, out of a hat comes Osama Bin Laden being captured by Special Forces Units, paraded on all the TV Channels, the Democrats will look like and be painted as if they are "prosecuting the wrong enemy"....It's hard to win when you need to rely on the informed consent of the American people, especially when their worldview is skewed by a right wing media establishment....The problem with democrats, from the point of view of those who own the country, is that their is the potential for socialism....and that ideology is under attack 24/7 by the right wing establishment.

[cali]

3. To address your points:

1) What do democrats stand for? As a party that's hard to say, despite the codification of their purported values in the the dem platform. Some are anti-globalization; others aren't. Pro-socialization? That's never been a dem platform. Your definitions of what constitutes a dem, are YOUR definitions, not some widely accepted definition.

2) Why not call blue dogs repuplicans? Because they're not. That's not how they self-identify. I may not like their positions, but I don't get to decide unilaterally that they aren't elected dems. Nor do you.

3) Message control. Yes, the right wing largely controls the message, but there are more and more ways to get your message out, and it's not as black and white as you purport.

[Postman]

4. But to get to your point....

The Democrats don't act on impeachment because they know they can't win, politically. If they try to impeach these criminals the press will paint them as being partisan, anti-American traitors. If they start impeachment proceedings and then during the proceedings, low and behold, out of a hat comes Osama Bin Laden being captured by Special Forces Units, paraded on all the TV Channels, the Democrats will look like and be painted as if they are "prosecuting the wrong enemy"....It's hard to win when you need to rely on the informed consent of the American people, especially when their worldview is skewed by a right wing media establishment....The problem with democrats, from the point of view of those who own the country, is that their is the potential for socialism....and that ideology is under attack 24/7 by the right wing establishment.

[Demeter]

5. After Watching Pelosi INaction Lo These Many Months, Impeachment Must Stay Off the Table

and we must remove Pelosi and Hoyer and Murtha to bring the House into the 21st Century.

We haven't got the leaders we need in place. Pelosi would do everybody, especially herself, a big favor by retiring.

The woman isn't cut out for the job, and now everybody knows it.

[cali]

6. Not that your response is, well, responsive, but

we can't remove Pelosi or Murtha. That isn't our system, and it's not up to us, except in the sense that we can vote them out of office- or rather their constituents can.

[Demeter]

7. I Thought Pelosi For President Would Be A Good Thing At First

but she has failed as Speaker, a much less isolated and stressful job. She doesn't show signs of growing into the office, either. If anything, she is shrinking. Whether it is the pressures of blackmail and threats and extortion by BushCo, or the conflicts within the Democratic Party itself, she fails the test.

Impeachment of Bush and Cheney would elevate another incompetent.

You would be surprised what power an organized group of committed people has. Take the GOP pre-Bush, for example. If there is a national effort to remove certain non-performing Democrats, it will happen. Lieberman is a good example--the man is no longer tainting the party with his sell-out.

The key words are organized and committed. Among the GOP leadership, those qualities are evident in only a very few, of which I count Howard Dean, Joe Trippi, and John Edwards. That is the nucleus of a Democratic Party that will bring America back from the brink of 3rd World disaster and fascism to regain the approval of the world and the nation. There may be others who belong in that small group--any suggestions?

[guitar man]

8. false flag terror attack

martial law?

[cali]

9. Nah. I don't think so. They know that

the votes aren't there for impeachment, let alone conviction. They don't need to go for a FF operation over this.