On not using a taser (arresting a 15 year old girl)

[aikoaiko]

There is a video in the link provided below. It shows a full size male officer trying to cuff a very small 15 year old girl who had violated state curfew in Florida.

Now some may argue that curfew laws are BS and/or that a cop shouldn't have to cuff someone for violating a curfew, but given that its his job to do so, he pretty much has to do it.

One would think cuffing a small girl would be easy, but its sometimes not. Was this encounter better than using a taser? I don't know. One could see how easy it would have been for her arms to snap or her shoulder to dislocate if he tried to use brute force. Was the pepper spray a better choice than taser? I don't know.

If you play the video, be prepared for a lot of screaming. The use of force escalates as she resists being cuffed and it flares when she bites the officer. Its horrible to listen to, but I think the video shows why cops are quick to used tasers now.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2007/oct/04/dramatic-arrest-caught-camera-fort-pierce/

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. "given that its his job to do so, he pretty much has to do it. "

His job is to serve and protect. Even black kids.

"just following orders" is a bullshit excuse.

[aikoaiko]

2. ok so you disagree that he should arrest her -- ok.

Thats not really the point, but you're free to discuss it.

One could argue that curfew laws are to protect young, black girls (all girls, all minors) like that from worse fates than being arrested even if they don't want to be protected from those worse fates.

[Lerkfish]

6. you have to traumatize them to save them?

um....ok.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. Seems like a valid point to me.

"One could argue that curfew laws are to protect young, black girls (all girls, all minors) like that from worse fates than being arrested"

This girl was attacked, assaulted, and is now being charged with a felony, probably ruining her life.

That's like that old saw from Vietnam about bombing a village in order to protect it.

[aikoaiko]

21. Hardly. She could have just let herself be cuffed and minor consequences would have ensued.

The "attack", "assault" and felony charge were her own creation. Do you really think the police officer should have let her go? If she had met a horrible fate, I'm sure you would be screaming about that.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. Do you really think the police officer should have let her go?

Yes.

"If she had met a horrible fate"

She met a horrible fate. At the hands of a cop. You should be screaming about that.

[aikoaiko]

There's much worse than being escorted to jail for breaking curfew.

But you already know that, don't you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. Yeah.

Getting assaulted by a cop is much worse than being escorted to jail for breaking curfew.

And getting escorted to jail for breaking curfew is much worse then simply being escorted home for breaking curfew, which is the most this cop should have done.

[NYVet]

142. Rule of thumb.

If a cop who catches you breaking the law attempts to arrest you and you resist, be prepared for some violence.

If she had not taken a swing at the officer and then went after him, she would have been out on an appearance ticket after her mom and dad showed up to get her at the station.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

149. Rule of thumb.

If you're black, there's a reasonable chance some white cop's going to treat you like shit.

[NYVet]

184. Depends on your attitude.

If you tell a cop to kiss your ass and give him attitude when he asks you questions, then you may be correct in your statement.


I used to be a cop and I didn't "give people shit" until I was way passed what that officer did.

[China_cat]

72. If she hadn't been black, she wouldn't have been arrested.

She'd have been taken home, sent home, her parents called, told not to be caught out again or all of the above. Curfew laws are just another way to keep people of color...especially young ones...off the streets.

It just wouldn't have happened if she'd been white.

[aikoaiko]

188. Its possible.

But I am not as certain as you.

[China_cat]

215. I live in SC. We have a curfew.

The only kids that are ever arrested for violations are black. The white kids are just told to go home and not do it again.

Seen it with my own youngest (who is white). Sneaking out of the house in the middle of the night. Picked up for curfew violation...and he was just about as nasty to the cop...several times. They would bring him home or just drop him off in front of the house while the black kid he was with went to jail.

It wouldn't have happened to that girl if she'd been white. You can doubt it if you want but I am absolutely sure of it.

[Sequoia]

248. Why?

Does it apply to everyone? What's the curfew time?

[China_cat]

249. Under 18's. 11pm to 6 am during the week

midnight to 6 am Friday and Saturday nights. Longer hours in the summer, too.

Supposedly to deter teenage crime. But the only ones ever charged just happen to have more melanin in their skin than others.

[Sequoia]

250. Crazy. Just crazy.

[aikoaiko]

251. why don't you file a complaint if the pattern of discrimination is so obvious.

Seriously, a letter to the chief, mayor, and newspaper could have impact.

[China_cat]

253. It's been complained about.

There's even a class action suit (yes, it's that big) in the courts. Letters have been written...they don't get published.

It's on the same level as the Stratford High School raids.

[Buzz Clik]

8. So what does he do? Let her go because she "doesn't want to go to jail" for breaking the law?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. Ask her politely to return to her home.

Maybe call her parents.

At worst, write her a ticket.

Jesus fucking Christ.

[Buzz Clik]

15. "Jesus fucking Christ" for sure. You don't want cops, you want a force of grandmothers.

"Now, dear, it's time to go to bed. Let me help you into the car, and we'll call mommy and daddy."

I'm guessing that the law in that community calls for the arrest of those who break curfew. Selective enforcement is not up to the cop.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Buzz Clik]

25. Here we go -- the mandatory DU race card.

If the COP were black, and the offending girl were white, nothing would change.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. What if the guy weren't a cop?

[Buzz Clik]

31. Then we'd start another thread to discuss this totally different topic.

What if pigs could fly? What if Bush weren't president? What if I were properly outraged in your eyes.

Do try to stay on topic.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. A person doesn't get the right to attack little girls just because he's a cop.

So no, it's not a totally different topic.

[Buzz Clik]

Ok. Now you have morphed from grumpy extremist to amusing curmudgeon.

He never attacked her. (Have we been watching the same video?)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Have we been watching the same video?

Apparently not. The one I see shows a guy grabbing a girl then pepper spraying her.

[timtom]

255. "never attacked her"

I don't mean to be contentious, but What the Hell do you Call THAT?!

Grandmothers, indeed.

Then Bush and his minions have exactly the right approach in world theater. Violence and force are all these *** will ever understand.

[Contrary1]

34. Well, if the guy wasn't a cop, he would not have been arresting her.

Not sure I see your point.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. citizens arrest.

Say some guy saw a girl out late at night, grabbed her from behind, through her over the hood of his car, then pepper sprayed her.

[Contrary1]

61. Ok...

It wasn't just "some guy". It was a police officer, with a badge, in a police car, arresting someone who was breaking the law, who was resisting arrest, who had just bitten him. Had he been able to pat her down looking for a concealed weapon?

Let's say it was a petite policewoman, trying to arrest a teenage boy, and all the above happened?

I would have sprayed either one had I been the cop.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

69. It doesn't matter if it's a cop.

"I would have sprayed either one had I been the cop."

If I'd been some girl walking down the street and somebody grabbed me, I'd think he was a rapist, and if I'd have a gun I'd have shot him, regardless of him being a cop. It'd be justified too.

[Contrary1]

73. It doesn't matter if it's a cop.

huh?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

76. A badge is not a license to commit assault and battery.

[distantearlywarning]

35. As someone who was once a 15 year old girl often out past curfew

and often breaking the law in a myriad of ways, I just have one thing to say about "ask her politely to return to her home" as a method of control.

BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!

:rofl:

When I was 15, here's how that would have gone down:

The officer would have asked me politely to return to my home. I would have said, "Yes officer, I sure will". Then I would have walked in that direction until he got out of sight, and then promptly returned to whatever mayhem I was kicking up that evening.

[Contrary1]

42. Ditto. Did we grow up together?

O8)

[distantearlywarning]

70. Are you from Arizona?

:-)

I sure had a lot of fun. But my 33 year old self now also looks back at those memories and shudders. I thank my lucky stars I never got seriously hurt doing some of the things I did.

I still haven't disclosed most of it to my parents either. I just figure what they don't know won't hurt them, and it's water under the bridge.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. Now lets say this happened to you.

Justified?

[distantearlywarning]

59. It wouldn't have happened to me.

I would have cooperated and let the cop take me to jail or to my parent's house. The only trauma would have been trying to explain to my parents why a cop was bringing me home.

If I had resisted and bit him, it would be reasonable for him to force me to submit to arrest. Having been pepper sprayed a few times during my life, I think I would rather have that done than be slammed on the pavement, have my arms broken, or be tasered. Would I be indignant? Yes. But probably not traumatized. And still responsible for my own actions.

[Contrary1]

68. If I was resisting arrest for breaking a law...yes.

[NYVet]

152. If I was picked up by a cop and attempted to resist?

Once the cop got me home, the ONLY place you would have seen me would be on the side of a milk carton, once my grandfather found out.

[Buzz Clik]

51. These days, the response was equally likely to be,

"Fuck you, officer."

[midnight]

199. Well if that is just too much for you to expect from those sworn

to protect and serve, maybe he should call the home and he could wait with her until the parents came to get her. Laugh about that for awhile. It amazes me how people expect so little.

[distantearlywarning]

213. Ok, and what if she doesn't want to wait?

What if she says, Fuck You Officer, and runs down the street while he's calling her parents?

What should he do at that point?

[Retired AF Dem]

258. But the real question is

Where in the fuck are her parents? If she had caring parents she wouldnt of been out at that time of the night and there wouldnt be any need for cop bashing.

[Lerkfish]

3. and tasering would be better?

I'm uncomfortable with your contention that tasering is okeydoke because handcuffing 15yr old girls is hard work.

[aikoaiko]

13. Didn't really say okeydoke, did I.

I said that after watching the video its understandable why a police officer would rather taser someone than break her arms, get bitten himself, slam a girl on the hood of car, and/or pepper spray her.

[DemGa]

4. God d**n the police state

They needed to get a women (hopefully of some character) and talk to this girl and treat her like a human being. Disgusting thug behavior as usual.

[renie408]

39. You people need to get out more. n/t

[Buzz Clik]

5. I honestly believe that as we see more and more videos of resisting arrest, resisting will increase.

This cop never lost his cool, and the girl forced his hand when she decided to bite him.

In the bad old days, she would have tasted pavement about ten seconds into the arrest. The cuffs would have been on (too tight), and she would have been sore for a week. We continue to endanger our law enforcement officers by making them out to be violent thugs.

[mark414]

156. um...because they are

[KittyWampus]

177. We'll be seeing more videos of resisting arrest because DU'ers enjoy posting them here

ans whipping up outrage regardless of context.

[negativenihil]

7. i've seen the video

and look - the girl really made it worse for herself by resisting, and later biting the officer.
This sort of behavior isn't going to get you un-arrested. IMO the officer gave her MORE leeway than deserved - i'm kinda surprised she wasn't maced sooner.

my point - she broke the law by being out past curfew, and the officer seemed to try his damnedest to keep his cool and not let the situation get out of control. Then she bit him and well... that's assaulting an officer.

i await the flames :P

[Buzz Clik]

12. Flames for sure, but not from me.

We make laws assuming they will be followed. We hire because we assume the laws will be broken, and laws without enforcement are meaningless. If you don't like 15-year-olds being arrested for curfew violations, change the law. It is that simple.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Police abuse is against the law.

[distantearlywarning]

16. Didn't look like abuse to me.

It looked like a police officer trying his best to arrest someone who didn't want to be arrested. Without doing them permanent harm and without allowing them to harm him.

On Edit: It also seemed that the officer was deliberately making sure that the action happened in front of the camera. I doubt he would have done that if his intent was to harm the girl instead of just get her handcuffed and put in the back of his squad car.

[Buzz Clik]

18. No shit, Sherlock. And police abuse is clearly defined for every force in this country.

Your problem is with the law and the mandatory reaction to those who break the law, not the cops.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. The cop broke the law.

I don't think there should be some exception just because he's got a badge on.

[Buzz Clik]

26. Really. He broke the law. Do tell.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. police abuse.

A worse crime, IMO, then a curfew violation.

[Buzz Clik]

33. Police abuse is hideous. Too bad we don't have a video to support your point.

This video shows that you are looking for a problem.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

46. The video shows police abuse.

And that you're not really interested in "rule of law."

[Buzz Clik]

56. Ok, real slowly now.

Is being out past curfew against the law in this case? Yes.

Is it a cop's job to enforce the law? Yes.

Is the penalty for curfew violation detention? Yes.

Did the cop request the she put her hand behind her back? Yes.

Did she? No.

Is resisting arrest against the law? Yes.

Is assaulting a police officer against the law? Yes.


No, mr. hooligah. You can pull you fingers out of your ears. My point is made -- the cop enforced the law as required.

Your problem is you don't like laws and you don't like cops; and that's too fucking bad.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Buzz Clik]

153. You keep making things up. She was sprayed for biting him -- that's called assault.

(Didn't we cover this already?)

[Buzz Clik]

158. Hooligan -- you get the impression that you're flying solo?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

163. No.

There's several other people here with the same opinions. One person posted to show support.

And then there are the PMs.

You?

[NYVet]

207. I'm thinking that the cop was correct in his actions.

But then again, I am just a middle aged angry white male racist homophobe. :sarcasm:

[distantearlywarning]

211. Just out of curiosity...

How many PMs does it take to achieve "supreme rightness"? Or is it just simply necessary to have more than your opponent?

And how many PMs does an opinion need to become "truth"?

Wouldn't a poll just be easier than all of this super-secret Mission:Impossible back-and-forth PMing with your friends? Maybe we could all vote on "truth" and just get it over with in a few hours and move on to some other flame war.

[timtom]

256. I'm with you, hooligan.

Someone enacts a "law". Suddenly, what was true yesterday is no longer true today. So now some thug has the right to assault you violently for doing what you did yesterday. Too arbitrary for my taste.

The ones who so stridently disagree with you appear to be strong authoritarian types.

[NOLALady]

260. Like the laws against drug use?

One day drug abusers were in the hospital. The next day the hospital was raided and they were in jail. From patient to criminal overnight.
Now that we have laws against drug use, we have no users. Oh wait. That's an alternate reality.

[NOLALady]

212. He's not flying solo.

I agree with him.
I am surprised by people who 1) support police brutality 2) support child abuse.

Just sitting here shaking my head. :crazy:

[distantearlywarning]

214. I'm guessing you were one of the people who sent him a PM.

You and Swamprat.

Does 3 people constitute "supreme rightness"?

I'm still a little confused about this whole PM = truth thing....Maybe we need a FAQ on it somewhere so I know how many PMs I need to solicit to feel superior in my future flame wars.

[NOLALady]

216. No I did not.

I do not know how to send a PM. Nor do I see a reason to send a PM. Am I missing something here?

[distantearlywarning]

219. Well, you better get on that right away!

No telling how many PMs it might take to achieve "truth" status, and one of us police brutality advocates with a lot of friends who know how to use a PM might get there before you!

[NOLALady]

231. What are you talking about?

[distantearlywarning]

235. Read Hooligan's post above.

He implies that he can win an argument with another poster based on how many PMs each of them have respectively received during this flame war. I'm making fun of that premise.

[distantearlywarning]

220. sorry...double post...

[Solon]

38. Arresting people for curfew violations make about as much sense as arresting people for speeding...

and people who speed are putting others in danger as well. Yet, 9 times out of ten, they get a warning/ticket, instead of being arrested(unless they are a person of color). You can enforce laws in any number of ways, we have curfew laws here where I live, and I've violated them plenty of times, though only caught once, and all the cop did was escort me back to my friend's house and made me call my mom, at 2 A.M. Boy was she and my friend's mom pissed at me and my buddy. We were 13 or 14 at the time.

[distantearlywarning]

48. It's entirely possible that the cop wanted to simply escort her home

If she resisted being "escorted", he would probably have little choice but to handcuff her. And we know the rest of the story after that....

I assume you went peaceably when you were breaking curfew. What do you think the cop would or should have done to you if you refused to let him take you back to your friend's house?

[Solon]

60. To be honest, I don't know...

I do know that it was a good thing I was there, if it was just my buddy, he probably would be dead(he's black). The cops around here have a well earned reputation in regards to certain people, its just a good thing that I "look" right.

[Mugu]

119. No flames from me.

I usually will not defend the police. But it's clear that this situation wouldn't have escalated to the point it did if she hadn't behaved badly. She gets no sympathy from me.

Regards, Mugu

[distantearlywarning]

9. The girl was clearly resisting.

Although I'm not always the biggest fan of cops or their methods, I do firmly believe that it is never or almost never the appropriate action to resist arrest. Resisting arrest gives the cop the excuse he needs to beat the shit out of you, and it never helps the situation. IMO, just go along with the arrest peaceably, and if you really are being treated unfairly, get yourself a lawyer and take it up with the judge later.

In this case, it seems fairly certain that the cop was prepared to be reasonable with the girl up until the point she bit him, despite the fact that she was being a nuisance and resisting. I think he was more patient and fair than I would have been in the situation, honestly. The pepper spray was better than a taser or a gun, and she could have easily avoided the whole thing by just cooperating in the first place.

[-..__...]

17. Jeez... what a drama queen.

A cat with it's tail caught in a car door probably sounds less irritating than that wailing banshee.

As far as spraying her goes, looks like the cop made the right call. She had
plenty of opportunity to cooperate.

Short of just throwing his hands up in disgust and letting her go, I don't know what else he could have done to diffuse the situation.

[hfojvt]

186. Here's what I might try

First, just be quiet for a little bit, maybe half a minute. Then calmly ask, in my most soothing voice "please, put your hands behind your back so I won't have to hurt you".

I am not totally blaming the cop, but there's too things he ought to know or have. First, is a little bit more patience. There's no time limit here. The objective is not to arrest her as fast as possible, but with as little uproar as possible.

Second, is to avoid barking, whenever possible. Perhaps he was calmer at the start of the incident, but continuous barking "put your hands behind your back" over and over, bark, bark, bark. That is not any way to de-escalate a situation. A person who is freaked out is only gonna get more freaked out when they are barked at. In order to calm them down, you need to stay calm. Barking makes it sound like you are angry and/or dangerous. That is not gonna de-fuse the situation.

[Solon]

19. Tasers should only be used as an alternative to using firearms, period...

Unless he would have been justified in SHOOTING her, using a taser would have been excessive force. Would it have been better if she was tasered, collapsed onto the street, and convulsed at the same time?

[aikoaiko]

30. Well, but you see how easily both she and he could have been seriously hurt?

Especially her.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

32. I agree, she should have tasered the cop.

It'd make it easier to have him arrested for felony assault.

[aikoaiko]

45. sigh, only in your FTP fantasy world.

Police abuse is real, but thats not what happened here.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. Only in your LTN fantasy world...

is this video justified.

[Buzz Clik]

40. How hard would it be for her to not resist arrest -- which is a bigger crime than curfew violation?

[Solon]

47. The fact is that Tasers are less than lethal, not non-lethal weapons...

and hence, with the threat of death that comes with the use of them, they should only be used in place of firearms. Unless you think the cop should have shot her, then your argument holds no weight. Its not like she wouldn't have been seriously hurt being tasered either.

[aikoaiko]

77. Actually pepper sprays have been linked to some deaths too

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6416/smith-ok.html

and so have choke holds.

[Solon]

93. And pepper spray and choke holds have both been abused....

in the past and present as well. The fact of the matter is that, once the police get a new toy, they have a tendency to overuse it and use it inappropriately. We need rules of engagement that are properly enforced to minimize the deaths. I've seen pepper spray used on peaceful protesters whose great crime was sitting down on a sidewalk, not moving. Choke holds are perhaps the least likely to result in death, as long as the officer performing it is in control of their own actions. The pressure needed to keep the choke hold is completely in control of the officer in question. Yet, pepper sprays and tasers aren't in complete control of the officers, they wouldn't know if someone will have a bad reaction to a pepper spray, and have their airways constricted, nor can they control whether someone will die of heart failure from a taser. The fact is that that is a risk with using such devices, and they should only be used with that in mind.

[Retired AF Dem]

262. Solon I respect you a lot

but here you are wrong. Tasers were not developed as a non lethal substitute for a fire arm. It was developed as a substitute for physical force. To many lawsuits against the use of physical force and night sticks caused the use of the taser.

[Solon]

265. And the use of tasers is somehow better?

People seem to have some funny ideas about tasers, first I never said they were NON-LETHAL, they are LESS THAN LETHAL, as they say about guns, if you are pointing at someone, you better be ready to KILL them, not maim them, that only happens in movies. The tussle that is shown in the OP is disturbing, however, the total amount of injuries, for both parties was minimal, with a taser, it was just as likely that the injuries sustained by the girl would have have been more severe.

Think about what a taser IS, before you think they are a suitable alternative to physical force. It uses electricity to immobilize people, or as pain compliance. However, electricity is unpredictable, especially in regards to how it reacts to individual humans. Age, body mass, muscle to fat ratio, and medical conditions all affect the reaction a person would have to a taser. To some people, tasers are lethal, period, those with heart conditions, possibly some neurological conditions, etc. are vulnerable, especially if they have devices within them that regulate their metabolism. In addition to this, there are seemingly random effects, for some people, getting tased involves a muscle lockup, they fall down, and don't move for a while. For others, it resembles a grand mal seizure, which if you have ever seen one, is a serious danger to the person suffering the seizure, biting off the tongue(or choking on it), fracturing the skull on the floor/pavement, etc. aren't unheard of.

If there are lawsuits about the use of physical force, what makes tasers immune to similar lawsuits? I'm sure such lawsuits are already working their way through the courts.

[Swamp Rat]

23. Seig heil mutherfuckers!!

Some of you police state sycophants make me fucking sick! :puke:

[Buzz Clik]

28. Change the law, and put the insults where the sun don't shine.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

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[aikoaiko]

37. Did you just call me a mutherfuker?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[aikoaiko]

65. Its ok, because you're wrong about this case.

[Swamp Rat]

74. Oh really?

What I SAW was police brutality.

If you can prove to me she tried to kill the officer or was robbing someone at gun point, you know, COMMITTING A CRIME, then I will consider revising my opinion.

[aikoaiko]

83. oh, ok, I see, one can only be cuff for robbing or killing. move along now swamprat

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

101. One should have a valid reason for cuffing somebody.

Being out after the midnight curfew at 7:20 is not a valid reason for hand cuffing somebody.

[distantearlywarning]

127. Actually, it was at 1 something in the morning.

And she was breaking the law.

We don't know what happened before he pulled her over in front of the camera. Maybe he offered to give her a ride to her parents' house and she refused. Maybe she swore at him, or tried to run when he pulled over.

But let's just give her the benefit of the doubt. Let's assume she was completely cooperative in the beginning, and it was the kind of offense you would normally just get a ticket for, like speeding or something. The police officer was completely out of line in handcuffing her, and probably racist besides.

Well, what should she have done to get the best outcome for herself and get justice?

Should she have cooperated, let him arrest her, and then gotten a lawyer later?

Or should she have fought back, cried, refused to cooperate, and bit the officer?

Either way she's still going to jail, right? And when she's standing in front of the court and it's her word against his, what do you think the judge would think of A) a tape that showed her cooperating and being polite while being manhandled by the big white officer, vs. B) a tape that showed her resisting, struggling, biting, and forcing the officer to escalate to get her arrested? Which of these actions will be more pragmatically good for her in the end?

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

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[distantearlywarning]

228. It mattered when you were using it as part of your own argument.

Anyway...what names would you call your fellow Democrats if the girl happened to be white? (And if you don't think cops don't do this to white people, well, I have an episode of COPS or two for you to watch...)

[Retired AF Dem]

261. "One should have a valid reason for cuffing somebody"

Well you know what they say about opinions. If you can do a better job go join the Police and show us how it is done. Quit acting like those dumb asses in the stands that think they can do better than the ones in the playing field. I will give you a personal piece of advice, don't handcuff people you arrest or detain and you wont live long.

[Swamp Rat]

125. "move along now swamprat" - Right, nothing to see here.

[renie408]

54. And some of you idealistic morons make me sick.

Why is a policeman doing his job automatically interpreted as an example of a 'police state'? Because he got rough with a fifteen year old girl? WHY did he get rough with her? Do you EVER stop to think about that? WHY do they have a curfew? No, you don't stop to think about anything. You just react. React. React. React.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. It's a police man's job to serve and protect.

Not pepperspray little girls in the face.

"Why is a policeman doing his job automatically interpreted as an example of a 'police state'?"

1. Because this is not what police are supposed to do. Obviously.

2. Because despite obvious evidence of abuse, this cop's superiors are defending him.

3. Because despite obvious evidence of abuse, regular citizens like you are defending him.

"Because he got rough with a fifteen year old girl?"

Yup.

"WHY did he get rough with her?"

Because she was black.

"Do you EVER stop to think about that?"

Yes. Did you?

"WHY do they have a curfew?"

There's no good reason.

[CT_Progressive]

58. Incorrect. It is, in fact, his job to pepperspray little arrest-resisting girls in the face.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. It's the girl's"job" to defend herself.

I do believe that in rape defense class they do teach biting.

[distantearlywarning]

81. But I doubt they advocate biting a police officer who is trying to arrest you. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

90. They advocated biting strangers who are trying to rape you.

And they point out that just because somebody's got a cop uniform it doesn't mean he ain't a rapist.

[distantearlywarning]

109. I doesn't mean he is, either.

And by the laws of probability, any cop with a badge in a police car is probably trying to arrest you because he thinks you committed a crime. As opposed to being a rapist who stole a police uniform and a badge and is trying to find 15 year old girls who are committing a crime so he can lure them into his stolen cop car.

I'm not saying it never happens. But the smart money's on the average cop you come across actually being a cop, not a rapist pretending to be a cop.

And the smart thing to do when you meet a cop who is giving you orders, ESPECIALLY when you happen to be breaking a law when you meet him, is to do what he says.

In fact, giving women advice to bite police officers who are trying to arrest them just on the off-chance that they might be a rapist in a stolen uniform will probably be MUCH more harmful to the vast majority of women in the long run than telling them to comply and take it up with the judge later.

[KittyWampus]

189. Yeah, a rapist with a fake uniform AND A SQUAD CAR.

:rofl:

[Swamp Rat]

82. I would have bit his face off.

From what little I could glean from the edited video clip, I believe the officer did something to her BEFORE the scene we were allowed to see.

[aikoaiko]

134. making something up is the only thing you can do here.

[Swamp Rat]

145. LOL! .............. Oh the irony!!!!

:rofl:

[midnight]

201. Ok is that a jesus fish in the lower left? And another question,

what is progressive about this statement you made. I know that I'm looking at your handle name, and just nothing, but a question mark. Your thoughts are Neanderthal. Just club her and drag her home by her hair. It's "his" job.

[Swamp Rat]

63. EXACTLY!

We have fallen so low as a country, as a supposed civilisation, where even liberals and democrats automatically accept draconian application of the "law."

This servility makes me sick.

[renie408]

96. You don't think that biting the shit out of him and struggling like a pissed off bobcat

might have had something to do with his getting rough?

Are they just supposed to let the people go that don't want to be arrested?

You don't think there could be a good reason to keep juveniles off the street at 2 am?

And, NO, you aren't thinking about it. You have one standard reply for every single thread where someone is arrested. No matter what it is for, no matter how they behave, no matter what happens...it's police brutality. Is there a way for the police to arrest someone who doesn't want to be arrested and fights back that isn't going to involve some violence? They can't use a taser, they can't use mace and they can't use force. What the fuck do you expect them to do?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

102. You don't think that arresting somebody for "curfew"

might have something to do with the struggling?

[renie408]

147. No, I don't. What has that to do with anything?

A) If you feel like you are being falsely arrested, you don't bite the cop and fight with him like a madwoman. You don't resist arrest. You fight that AFTER you have gotten back out again.

B) I am thinking that by time he got in front of the car, he was arresting her for biting him.

[timtom]

267. Quick question...

Is it remotely possible that she wouldn't have attempted to bite him if he hadn't used such extreme force?

Cops have alternative methods at their disposal.

A couple of years ago, when my son was about 14, we received a phone call from the cops saying they had my son at such-and-such a location and would we please come and get him. We went and got the errant lad, who had ingested god-knows-what psychedelics and thanked the officer for the way he handled the situation.

No harm, no foul.

[CRF450]

268. WHAT THE FUCK!?!?!

Do you know that their are sick bastards out thier who want to abduct, rape, torture, and murder kids any chance they get?! Thats what the curfew laws are in place for! The officer was doing his job, she resists and bites him, thats assualt on an officer, she gets arrested, she deserves it, end of story!

You have no credit what so ever in this thread to support your arguments. This kind of attitude is what republicans use against us to make us out as a bunch of cop bashing pussies, and its working as we speak!

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aikoaiko]

67. Did you see the video, the police did not get rough with her for breaking curfew.

[Swamp Rat]

79. I only saw the part of the video the police wants us to see.

I did not see what the officer did to her to make her cry in agony BEFORE the clip was edited.

So, do you think teenaged girls should be roughed up by LARGE, ARMED MEN just for curfew violations?

[aikoaiko]

86. no, and it doesn't look like he was.

She's pretty clear why she's resisting, she says she didn't do anything and she doesn't want to jail. She's doesn't say you're going to kill me or you hurt me and I'm scared.

[Swamp Rat]

98. They cut that part out of the video, and the part where the officer demanded a blow job.

How the hell do you know what happened outside the boundaries of the video clip?

I really want to know how you came to know the entire context of this case.

Provide more information and then we can discuss it.

[aikoaiko]

122. You have a vivid imagination. But now I understand why you are so upset by this video.

I didn't say I knew what happened outside the boundaries of the tape.

But what do we see. We see him bring the girl into view of the camera with one handcuff on and she's still holding her purse. She doesn't look beat up or injured yet. He's trying to get the handcuffs on.

She's doesn't say I don't want to give you a BJ. She doesn't say she's afraid or that she doesn't him to hurt or kill her.

She says she doesn't want to go to jail.

[Swamp Rat]

137. Yes, I have a very vivid imagination. It comes from watching movies like "Twelve Angry Men."

"She doesn't say she's afraid" - Does she really have to???

"I didn't say I knew what happened outside the boundaries of the tape." - But you assumed a lot about this case. I am offering an alternative context.

"But what do we see." - What the police officer wants you to see?

"We see him bring the girl into view of the camera with one handcuff on and she's still holding her purse." - Yes, she was about to give him her ID when he propositioned her.

"She doesn't look beat up or injured yet." - But she was very upset knowing she was about to be raped or arrested.

"He's trying to get the handcuffs on." - Because she did not put out.

Until I see and read more information, all we have is conjecture.

[aikoaiko]

151. 12 angry men??? it shouldn't surprise me that you'd use fiction (a movie) to make your point.

12 angry men....sigh. You are no Henry Fonda.

[Swamp Rat]

175. Thanks!! Yes, I really like Henry Fonda in that movie.

He also directed it.

I don't mind the ad hominem about me referencing a movie, as I have been harsh on you and others in this thread. I understand. :D

:hi:

[aikoaiko]

187. its ok, I understand your posts too, now.

:hi: bye

[muffin1]

85. Amen, Swamp Rat and Bornaginhooligan (sp?)

If a police officer cannot handle a 15 year old girl, pray tell what would he have done if he had to arrest an unruly adult? Christ, he's three times her size at least. Maybe the law does mandate that he had to take her in, but there was no reason on earth for him to pepper spray that young girl.
I'm sorry, I know most police officers do a magnificent job, but this is not one such example.

[Swamp Rat]

105. I appreciate the work of fine, decent police officers.

We really need them here in New Orleans.

Until I see real evidence he was reacting to a dangerous situation, this bully does not deserve to keep his job.

[renie408]

What proof do you have that he attacked her? That is not what the video

shows. Do you think he bit himself, too?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

110. It's right there in the video.

He's got his hands on her, bent over the hood of the car, and he's pepper spraying her.

Please don't play dumb.

[tammywammy]

168. Yeah, he pepper sprayed, AFTER she bit him n/t

[Swamp Rat]

112. Um, I saw him twist her arm really hard, punch her in the face and pepper spray her.

.... but she was such a scary black girl!!!

[aikoaiko]

264. woah, your post has no number. how did that happen?

eta: and now I see some other posts including mine have no number as well. weird.

[NYVet]

173. Thank you for your wit and wisdom on this post.

As a former police officer, I want to say that you are worthy of the legendary clue token.

The clue token is redeemable for 1 clue, and I suggest that you use it to pull your head from your ass.

[Swamp Rat]

182. LOL!

Glad you are a vet. :applause:

[NYVet]

195. I mean Vet as in veteran...

You know, the men and women who enlist in the military?



I bet you hate us also.

[Swamp Rat]

198. "I bet you hate us also." ... accusing me of hating soldiers?

You do not have the guts to say something like that to my face.

[NYVet]

205. Extrapolation of your comments

leads me to believe that you have a problem with authority. For some reason I see you as hating the police, the principal, and those with authority.



If we lived in the same town, I would meet you in the center of the square and say it to your face.

[Name removed]

217. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NYVet]

224. Why, gonna beat me up?

And this is where I shake, right?

[Name removed]

230. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NYVet]

237. No, I don't pick fights

I have all of my real teeth, except for the 2 wisdom teeth that were removed almost 15 years ago.


And you were the one who made the statements that wouldn't dare say that to your face and that I should be lucky that I don't live in the same town as you do.

[Swamp Rat]

243. Why don't you just apologize for insinuating I hate American soldiers?

Then we can just forget the whole thing.

I will start by apologizing for escalating the disagreement.

[NYVet]

245. We can do that.

You accept mine and I accept yours.

[CT_Progressive]

43. I support the officer, and no, a taser should not have been used.

Its unfortunate he got bitten, but prior to the bite, there is no possible, conceivable way there was justification for a taser.

After the bite, he did the right thing - stop the bite attack, use pepper spray to limit her sight, then continue to cuff her.

[Maine-ah]

62. um, yeah

so, I am one of those who say the curfew is there for their own safety. I lived in Flordia. The place is scary. The other thing, is I don't know or I can't tell if we have the whole story here too. Did the officer offer up taking her home? Did she refuse a ride? Did she leave him no choice but to arrest her, and to me at that point of arrest it was obvious all she had to do was put her hands behind her back. Up here, they would have started with the ride home. I think Florida cops see way way more shit than ours do up here, though recently we had a rather bad incident that is awaiting investigation.

[DemGa]

71. People can react with shock when violated like this

As we get further into the police-state, I think we need education, especially for children, on the correct behavior when grabbed by a blue-suit in the street.

Really, people are not educated on how to be arrested, and they are supposed to just "know." Now think of a child whose brain is not even fully developed and perhaps this will make better sense.

[aikoaiko]

Being caught breaking curfew and detained is a violation?

[DemGa]

84. Yes, a personal violation to be grabbed in the street

when all you've known is freedom as a child, and some man grabs you. Of course, a personal violation that could "shock" a person.

[distantearlywarning]

89. Some man...

Like a police officer, with a badge, in a police car? That kind of random guy on the street?

I would be willing to bet that every child in this culture over the age of 5 knows what a cop is and what they do. Certainly 15 year old girls out past curfew know what a police officer looks like and what they are allowed to do. Although she clearly didn't like his actions, I doubt they came as any kind of shock.

We don't have the right in this society to do everything and anything we feel like at any time. It is NOT a "violation" for a police officer to physically force someone who is breaking the law to submit to an arrest. It's the police officer doing his job, the job we paid him to do so that our society functions effectively.

[DemGa]

104. You've neglected the innocence of the child

who perhaps cannot see things in the adult manner you project onto them. It can be quite disturbing to innocence when freedom is taken forcefully--even when it's by a blue-suit.

But the police-state doesn't know, or care about this; and we allow it, so it continues.

A child should be treated as a child, no?

[distantearlywarning]

140. See post #35 and post #42.

I know something about the "innocence" of 15 year old girls, and I bet this cop does too.

And I also bet that you don't know any 15 year old girls, especially not the kind who hang around on the streets at 1 am. :-)

[aikoaiko]

99. I guess we don't know how the interaction began.

One could assume the best, worst, or anything in between.

[distantearlywarning]

80. Now this is a sensible argument.

You are right - it's entirely possible nobody ever told this girl anything about how to act when you're arrested or what to expect. More education about that sort of thing would almost certainly forestall incidents like this one.

I've thought for a long time that high schools should have a mandatory "Civics" type class for students, one which included a basic primer on what happens to someone in the legal system from the moment of arrest to incarceration. It could include things like how to act during traffic stops, what to do if you're getting arrested, your rights during interrogation, how to keep from involuntarily confessing, police techniques, how to find an attorney, and so forth. I TA for a college-level course just like that and I think it's probably one of the most useful courses some of these college kids will ever take. But they get it so late, and it's just a specialty elective here.

[renie408]

78. Sometimes you guys are so naive, it amazes me.

Where are you guys from that you think that 'politely' asking a teenager to do something is necessarily going to work? I have a friend that works in a semi-rough part of town. She has been SPIT on by teenage girls. Do you think those teenage girls are going to get a talking to by a woman 'of character' and suddenly say, "Oh gee, I just totally see the error of my ways!"

I have a fit and athletic almost twelve year old. She is tall for her age at about 5'4" and she is as strong as an ox. I imagine that if my husband had to try to subdue her while she threw an all out tatrum and resisted being subdued, it would end up looking like that video.

And do you HONESTLY (be honest with yourself and with us) think that if that cop had 'politely' asked her to go home, or had just written her a ticket that it would change anything? Where are you FROM? Pleasentville? I live in a semi-rural area of northern South Carolina. A couple of months ago there were some teenage girls hanging out in front of the new gas station. They were blocking the door to get into the gas station. I walked up and waited for a minute and then stared pointedly at one of the girls. She looked me right back in the face and said, "What are you looking at, bitch?" I stood there with my mouth hanging open for a minute in total shock and then just said, "I am not quite sure." They sized me up, threw down their cigarettes and SLOWLY and grudgingly moved out of the way. For about ten seconds there I thought I was going to get into a fist fight with a teenage girl. Are all teenagers like that? Of course not. But there are plenty that are and pretending that all little fifteen year old girls are Pollyanna is ridiculous.

If this girl had been the type to listen to stern words from a woman of character or the type to pay attention to a ticket or a polite request, SHE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN WRESTING WITH A COP IN THE FIRST PLACE.

You ask what is wrong with us (those of us that recognize that occasionally, the police actually do have to arrest people that don't want to be arrested)...what the fuck is wrong with YOU?? I bet like hell you want the police around and being pretty goddam police-like in cases like that of the guy that went and shot three of his former co-workers and then had to be shot by the police.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

87. ...

"Where are you guys from that you think that 'politely' asking a teenager to do something is necessarily going to work?"

No. Where are you from that you think pepper-spraying a girl is a proper response to being out to late? Germany, circa 1933?

"I have a friend that works in a semi-rough part of town. She has been SPIT on by teenage girls."

If your friend has attitudes similar to you, I say good for the teens.

"Do you think those teenage girls are going to get a talking to by a woman 'of character' and suddenly say, "Oh gee, I just totally see the error of my ways!""

Do you think that this girl is not "of character" to begin with, or for that matter is from a rough part of town? Gee, now why would that be?

"I imagine that if my husband had to try to subdue her while she threw an all out tatrum and resisted being subdued, it would end up looking like that video."

Jesus, what a household.

"And do you HONESTLY (be honest with yourself and with us) think that if that cop had 'politely' asked her to go home, or had just written her a ticket that it would change anything?"

No. Nor do I think it's a cop's business to force a kid to go home for being out late.

"I live in a semi-rural area of northern South Carolina."

Ah, now it's starting to make sense.

"I walked up and waited for a minute and then stared pointedly at one of the girls. She looked me right back in the face and said, "What are you looking at, bitch?""

Then maybe you should have politely asked to use the restroom instead of being rude.

"Are all teenagers like that?"

One would hope.

"You ask what is wrong with us (those of us that recognize that occasionally, the police actually do have to arrest people that don't want to be arrested)...what the fuck is wrong with YOU??"

We're not racist scumbags that support police violence.

"I bet like hell you want the police around and being pretty goddam police-like"

I sure as hell wouldn't want this cop in my neighborhood. And there's nothing police-like about this guy.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

94. clue number one, hooligan

she wasn't peppersprayed for violating curfew...she was peppersprayed AFTER she assaulted the officer...but your name definitely describes your position on the police...

sP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

97. clue number two...

if he hadn't been "arresting her for violating curfew" she wouldn't have been defending herself.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

103. ah...the selective enforcement of the law argument n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

113. Yes.

It beats the "just following orders" argument any day.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

116. enforcing the law is that person's job

but I guess that doesn't matter to you...

sP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

120. He didn't seem to have a problem breaking other laws.

Laws much more serious than curfew violations.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

121. you seem to think he is violating the law

but the fact is he is executing a lawful arrest and the person is resisting...but hey, anarchy is cool...go with it.

sP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

124. Yes.

He is. It's right there on video.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

126. nope...not in any size shape or fashion

but hey...that fantasy world of your seems to serve you well so keep on hangin' in there...

sP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

128. I'm reminded of the Rodney King beating.

People looked at the video, said there was nothing the cops did wrong, King got what he had coming to him for resisting arrest.

Apparently we were supposed to believe them, instead of our own lying eyes.

[renie408]

131. That's because you are insane.

No, this is nothing like the Rodney King beating. Nothing at all. And that is your problem. You cannot tell the difference between five or six cops beating the amoral shit out of a guy and one cop wrestling with a teenager who never hits her and finally, after at least a minute of fighting with her and repeatedly asking her to put her hands behind her back and being bitten, maces her.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

138. Ah, the banality of evil.

Some black kid is out late, some white cop grabs her pepper spray her, and you defend it, and I'm the one that's insane.

That's rich.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

144. get your delete pen out...

you are just being an ass...a blind, ignorant and quite possibly insane ass...

sP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

150. Coming from you, I'm not particularly worried.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

159. god DAMN you're funny

i have decided you MUST be a comic act...no one can be that obtuse unless it is an act...congrats! you are awesome! or you are a republican plant trying to make democrats look as insane as possible...either way, great job! you are REALLY selling it!

sP

[ProdigalJunkMail]

133. you see something other than

a cop executing an arrest...telling her to put her arm back...she resist...he tells her again...she resist...this goes on for a minute or two...then he tries to take her arm (all the while being calm)...she then assaults him...he peppersprays her...

I guess you see something else...no, I KNOW you see something else, but that doesn't make it reality.

sP

[ManiacJoe]

252. The problem with the Rodney King tape is that

almost no one saw the whole tape. Those who did have a much different understanding of what went right and wrong that night compared to the masses who saw only a few minutes of the tape.

[renie408]

129. I have watched the whole thing a couple of times. In slow motion

because I have a shitty connection. When did he break the law? All I see is him hanging onto her left arm and trying to grab her right arm while he says repeatedly, "Put your hands behind your back" At one point it even sounds like he says, "Miss, I don't want to force you".

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

132. When he assaulted her.

Take a step back and actually look at what you're arguing here.

There's no way to justify this behaviour. It doesn't matter how many rude teenagers you know.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

136. i guess that BITE was ok... n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

139. Yeah.

Self defense. If the cop wasn't out late violating police abuse laws, she wouldn't have had to do it.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

146. you make me laugh...

and weep for the Democratic Party at the same time...like it or not, it is YOU that a LOT of the world see as the face of the party...

sP

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

161. so now I am a racist? wow you throw that term around pretty freely

without knowing anything about me or the others you have thrown it at...hot DAMN, you're good!

sP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

162. No, the cop's a racist.

But hey, if you seriously want to defend this shit...

[ProdigalJunkMail]

164. wow...and YOU'RE psychic too!

god, when does it end?!? stop...it hurts...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

167. Occam's razor.

In all these stories about police abuse, there's a huge, disproportionate number of black victims.

It ain't a coincidence.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

172. occam's razor applies to science

not personal interactions where you know nothing about the people involved. And I will agree, there is a lot of this shit going around, but the fact is that it ISN'T EVERY INTERACTION...sometimes the cops are right...and believe it or not, some cops are decent people...not all...but some...

sP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

209. LOL

No, Occam's Razor applies for every phenomenon which may have multiple explanations.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

222. but it requires a little more than knowing NOTHING of the situation

but hey...you are still a riot...thanks for the laughs tonight! Even from a few thousand miles from home you have really cheered me up with your posturing...

sP

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

'All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be correct' or it could be said, 'we should not assert that for which we do not have some proof.' and you have no equality because you know NOTHING of the interaction...

[cali]

143. Who are you to call people Nazis? Just fucking disgusting and

completely predictable. Cheap bullying on the internet. Aren't you the brave one.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

155. No.

Although given your opinion on nazis that you expressed yesterday...

:rofl:

[cali]

166. And you continue to

l** your ass off. I gave no opinion on Nazis yesterday. I said that I didn't hold all germans who voted for Hitler responsible for his crimes. It was, as I recall, a discussion in which you insisted that anyone who had ever voted for bush had the blood of a million Iraqis on their hands.

But continue on your merry, mindless and untruthful way.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

169. Oh, excuse me.

I meant people who voted for Hitler instead of Nazis.

:rofl:

[cali]

174. I'm glad this little exchange stands and people

can see exactly what sort of dishonest games you play. Oh, and you need those little emoticons- they're particularly useful when you don't have an argument and you've been caught in a lie.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

178. c'mon, cali...

it HAS to be a facade...no one can be that deluded and still functional enough to use a keyboard. See it for what it is an laugh...or cry...there are people like this all over the internet...

sP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

210. Me too.

I've got nothing to worry about.

You, on the otherhand, keep digging yourself into a hole.

"you've been caught in a lie."

Pardon?

[Swamp Rat]

91. How do you know the officer did try to RAPE HER before they edited the clip?

Tell me, what facts to you really know about this case?

The video clip was edited so you only saw the situation AFTER it had developed into a combative situation.

So, what happened to make it get so bad that a large, armed man needed to hurt a child in such a way, just for a curfew violation? What did she do to deserve that treatment?

"Where are you FROM? Pleasentville?" - No, I am from New Orleans, the most dangerous city in the USA.

"If this girl had been the type to listen to stern words..." Jesus Christ on a carcker! How they hell do you know this?

"in cases like that of the guy that went and shot three of his former co-workers and then had to be shot by the police." - Straw Man.

[renie408]

141. How do you know he did?

And I know that she isn't the type to listen to stern words because he says about fifty times, "Put your hands behind your back." and she doesn't do it. And I know he didn't try to rape her because I read the article that went the video and her family 'expressed concern' over the video, but don't say anything about the cop trying to rape her. And what kind of bonus points do you get for being from NOLA?? And it ISN'T a straw man. It requires you to THINK, something I should have recognized was impossible.

[Swamp Rat]

165. I don't , but she was obviously upset BEFORE he brought her in front of the car.

"And I know that she isn't the type to listen to stern words because he says about fifty times, "Put your hands behind your back."" - That is AFTER something else happened.

"And I know he didn't try to rape her because I read the article that went the video and her family 'expressed concern' over the video, but don't say anything about the cop trying to rape her." - That is the only article you read? Why did the situation escalate? What happened 10 minutes before? What did that big man do to that little girl? Maybe nothing, but WE DO NOT KNOW.

You said: "Where are you FROM? Pleasentville?" and I said: "No, I am from New Orleans, the most dangerous city in the USA." - Yeah, it DOES give me bonus points since you brought it into the context of this debate in the first place. I live in a city with a lot of violence, yet I still believe WHAT I SAW IN THE VIDEO was draconian application of the "law," a manifestation of our descent into a police state.

"And it ISN'T a straw man. It requires you to THINK, something I should have recognized was impossible." = Ad hominem. You need to refresh your memory regarding logical fallacies.

[NOLALady]

197. Heavens!

I can't believe this thread. And this is from the 'good guys'. Heaven help us all.

[EnviroBat]

135. Prolly should have smacked her in the mouth.

The youth of today are so protected that they mouth off without any consequences. Little fucking punks. God I miss the old days...

[Swamp Rat]

170. HOORAY FOR CHILD ABUSE!!!

x(

[Evoman]

185. You wish that a man 3 times her size had hurt her?

Is assault acceptable to you, if others "deserve it"?

[EnviroBat]

281. Next time read who's reply I'm posting to.

But while you're at it, no, never stand up for yourself. Let people call you names in public because they're just kids right?, They have every right to split on you, hassle you, act like they own the fucking world. Just stand there and take it. Just go crawl under a rock.

[Jim__]

88. According to the video it's 07:20. A curfew violation?

If 07:20 is a curfew violation, I think a warning ticket might suffice. Obviously the kid is getting hysterical. Police procedure - escalate - handcuffs and pepper spray. I think the police need to react with some sense of proportion. It's 07:20. The kid is hysterical. Maybe the cop could back off for a second.

[Contrary1]

92. I noticed that also...

so I googled for other reports. It was 1:50am.

"Gilroy was responding to a 911 call about a suspicious couple walking the area of 24th Street and Boston Avenue with full garbage bags, when he met up with Riley at about 1:50 a.m."

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2007/oct/04/dramatic-arrest-caught-camera-fort-pierce/

[ProdigalJunkMail]

100. it is possible that the clock is just wrong

or is using UTC...it is DEFINITELY not dark at 7:20PM in FL in July...

sP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

106. Why is it wrong?

Isn't it rather important for cops to keep that sort of thing correct?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

114. 'tis

but it is obvious from the video that the clock is wrong...or UTC...it is NOT that dark in FL at 7:20PM in July...

[Solon]

118. Sounds like there is some inconsistancy here...

I don't understand how there could be an incorrect timestamp on a police video, unless someone is lying about the arrest. The timestamps are important, for obvious reasons, why this one was almost 12 hours off will have to be explained.

[Contrary1]

148. Fort Pierce, FL Time Zone = UTC - 5 hours

Which means it was 2:20 am local time. The officer said he met up with her at about 1:50 a.m.

[Solon]

176. So what the hell happened in the intervening half hour?

Now even more questions for what happened, if he encountered her a good half hour before the official arrest and the taping, why did he wait before arresting her?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

180. if that clock is UTC the time is still off from the report

it would have been 00:20...

sP

[ProdigalJunkMail]

234. i am no longer allowed to do time-based math

as i have calculated this the wrong way round...i would like to excuse by saying that I am in the UK right now and that has caused my lapse...but there really is no excuse...it would have been 00:20 here in the UK...but the other poster is right that it would have been 02:20 for the officer if the cam-clock is UTC...

just damn...

sP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

95. Ah, the plot thickens.

Fort Pierce youth curfew: midnight to 6 A.M.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

107. no it doesn't

it is not dark in FL at 7:20PM in July...the clock is not right or using UTC

[aikoaiko]

108. It happened around 1:50 a.m.; but don't let that stop the conspiracy theory to brew in your mind

[Phillycat]

117. Not to rain on your conspiracy theory, but it's not dark in FLA in July at 7:20.

:eyes:

[Phillycat]

111. That officer acted correctly in every way, IMO.

I watched the video twice. He very obviously PURPOSELY turned on the video tape because she was behaving like a rabid animal. He placed her in front of it so there was NO WAY anything he did to her WOULDN'T be caught on tape. In fact, he moved her BACK in front of the videotape when her ridiculous and hysterical gyrations moved her and him out of the frame. He WANTED to have the tape, to show that he followed proper procedure every step of the way.

I don't understand the people on this thread who are crying "POLICE STATE" and saying that this "child" was roughed up by a "thug". Have they never met some of the teenagers out there these days? They are far from innocent, and far from law-abiding.

Say all you want about a police state or some bullshit, but it would be total chaos out there if it weren't for the police. They get paid jack-shit for the privelege of getting shot at and abused all day every day.

[cali]

160. It's really quite simple. The people bleating and bullying

on ths thread, are completely reactive and not a whit reflective. Their pre-conceived world view offers only one knee jerk reaction, regarding police, no matter what the actual situation. They are, in short, so highly biased, that honest appraisal is impossible.

[Solon]

183. Like we are alone in this, its best to question authority, in ALL situations, to try to find the...

truth. The fact of the matter is that, there is an unaccounted for half hour before the arrest, where the officer encountered the suspect at 1:50 A.M. but didn't start the camera, or tape the arrest until 2:20. I want to know what happened in that half hour. The fact is that both sides are rushing to judgment, we don't know who escalated what until we know what happened before the camera started recording. Actually, that brings up another question, why was the camera off at all? Aren't they supposed to be on all the time?

[aikoaiko]

190. I believe the officer was dispatched at 1:50 and came across her later.

but I could be wrong about that.

[Solon]

191. The report in your OP said that he "met up" with her at 1:50 A.M.

There is no mention of anything else in the intervening time, as far as I can tell.

[aikoaiko]

196. true enough, I must have read that wrong

[Solon]

202. This brings up even more questions...

The fact is that we don't know what happened before the camera started rolling, only that something did happen. Her hysterics could be related to her age, most 15 year olds aren't exactly what I would call "level headed" or something else could have happened to upset her. I'm curious, to put it mildly, about what happened in that half hour when the officer was with her.

To be frank about it, my greatest problem is the attitude that police officers are somehow special or superhuman. The fact is that they are human, and hence imperfect, with prejudices, biases, personal problems, and suffer from irrationalities themselves. The difference between them and regular citizens is that they have power over those citizens, to enforce the law. Because of this, any questionable actions by any police officers should be examined through a skeptical, some would call, cynical, lens.

[Contrary1]

206. I've been searching for some online record of police runs....

but haven't had any luck. It should say exactly when the call came in. I would think that there are dispatch records that will shed some light on this whole thing too. Hopefully, more details will come out in court.

[Pithlet]

200. Or

It could be they may think that breaking curfew isn't a serious enough offense to warrant it escalating to that level. I happen to think the cop should have let her go before it got to that point. Yes, he would have been letting a scofflaw go, but it's relevant which law is being scoffed. If curfews are for their protection, then it hardly makes sense to tazer them, which can be deadly. Yes, I do believe more than one point of view is entirely reasonable.

[tammywammy]

115. I don't think the cop was in the wrong in any fashion

I watched the video. The girl should have allowed him to put on the cuffs. She's clearly resisting arrest. And then she escalated the whole thing by then biting the officer. It doesn't matter who you bite, that's assault.

[Evoman]

157. Geez...don't these police man take any courses on how to influence people.

Why is it immediate escalation to handcuffs and tasers and pepper spray, instead of just backing down and letting the other person get some grounding? ESPECIALLY for such a trivial, non-harmful infarction like curfew. It's not hard to get people to comply with your wishes, if you give them some space, time and respect....you can't force other people to respect you, but only ask for it in return for respecting them.

Hell, maybe he should have asked for her parents number, so that he could call them, and let them take care of it. Or even let her off with a warning. What is it in the ego of such men that they take such pride in their ability to physically get people to comply?

It seems obvious to me that any action you take should not be worse than the action your demanding of others. And pepper spray and violence is not appropriate for someone who is resisiting a time curfew, especially when that person has legitimate concerns about going with some man who she doesn't know at a late hour.

[Swamp Rat]

179. Out all that I read, this is the best post in the thread.

:applause:

I started to reply thusly, but chose a more 'creative' route. :D

[Jim__]

193. I think that is how they are taught to react.

I am not a policeman and have not been through police training, but I think cops are taught to react "authoritatively" in all situations. I would be happy to hear that I am wrong from someone who knows.

According to the story, the officer was acting according to police policy: “It is shocking to see that a police officer has had to use that level of force against a child,” Baldwin said Thursday night. “But ... my opinion is he responded appropriately and in accordance with our policies.

I can understand that type of training, but I really think it needs to be tempered by the situation. It seems to me to be very similar to "zero tolerance" rules. Police need to use good judgement and proportionality.

[midnight]

203. Zero tolerance is a code for if and when I feel like being abusive.

[Amaya]

257. finally some logic

i agree totally

[me b zola]

171. Uh, no, I don't think that this shows why cops are quick to use tasers

Jesus. You are actually arguing in favor of police brutality and it makes me fucking sick.

[Swamp Rat]

181. Yes

Now maybe you can see why I replied in the manner I did above.

:hug:

[me b zola]

194. This thread makes me want to scream

All of this "comply and you won't be hurt" stuff makes me ill. I understand why you posted what you did upthread. People don't understand the implications of accepting--even embracing--police brutality, of what it will lead to.

We will never know how many people were murdered and/or abused at the hands of Blackwater in NOLA. It's all connected, and it's what's in store for the rest of us out here if we don't open our eyes.



Peace and best wishes :hug:

[distantearlywarning]

204. If I were in NOLA and had to deal with Blackwater as my "police force"

I wouldn't be advocating meek compliance either. But even then, I wouldn't suggest that one's first and only action in that situation be hanging around on the street after curfew waiting to be arrested and then try to fight your way free by biting a man who outweighs you by 75 lbs.

In any case, this isn't NOLA, and the guy isn't Blackwater. It's a routine police stop in Florida, with a girl who is actually breaking a reasonable law, and who is resisting arrest. If she meekly complies, as someone said upthread, she will likely be released into the custody of her parents and ordered to appear later. She will not be murdered or abused in the 6 hours she spends in jail.

"Comply and you won't be hurt" IS actually a reasonable and pragmatic suggestion in a situation like this one, where you are dealing with a normal police officer in a normal minor law-breaking situation. Advocating resistance will cause more harm to the arrestee in the long run, and resistance will in most cases not allow them to break free of the situation anyway.

By bringing the kind of stuff that happened in NOLA into this argument, you're putting up a straw man.

[Swamp Rat]

225. Not a Straw Man

"By bringing the kind of stuff that happened in NOLA into this argument, you're putting up a straw man." - Wrong. Someone else who agrees with you brought 'location' into the debate:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1983613&mesg_id=1984029

"She will not be murdered or abused in the 6 hours she spends in jail." - Maybe you should ask her why she was afraid of the officer?

"a normal police officer in a normal minor law-breaking situation." - It did not seem normal or routine to me. Then again, that is my point about how we are slipping into a police state when something like this is considered "normal."

[distantearlywarning]

233. She wasn't afraid of the officer.

She was afraid of going to jail. I would be afraid of going to jail too, but not because I thought I would be murdered or abused by the police there. I would be afraid that I wouldn't make bail, that the other prisoners would bother me, that people would find out about my arrest and stigmatize me, etc. But not specifically of the cops there.

As far as his actions go, this kind of thing has been "normal" for the last 300 years. In fact, it used to be worse here, and has and is been much worse in other places around the world. This isn't a police state now and this officer's actions are not those of an officer in a police state. If you want to see "police state", read about Soviet Russia. You'll think we have a paradise here after reading about that, and you'll know that this is no police state. I hate to use this word, because it's often thrown around on this site inappropriately, but in this case it's a bit true: hysteria. Suggesting that this officer's actions are "brutality" and indicative of America quickly sliding into a police state (any moment now! Boom!) is hysterical. Now, if you want to talk about Halliburton and Blackwater, that's another matter...but not this officer or his actions.

Also, I haven't seen a reasonable suggestion from anyone on this thread yet about how the police or anyone else should keep order without using physical force to deal with some suspects. This world is not puppies and rainbows, and some people do cause problems for other, law-abiding citizens. Some of those people will refuse to come quietly regardless of how nice and polite the officer is to them. What should be done with those individuals? Should the officer just give up so as not to cause any unwanted trauma? I would like to hear an alternative suggestion that's actually reasonable and pragmatic before I condemn officers for using force on uncooperative people.

[Swamp Rat]

241. "She wasn't afraid of the officer." - prove it.

You might be right, but you might also be wrong.

Are you black? Do you know what it is like to be pulled over or stopped by a white police officer? It is a perspective you should at least consider.

"As far as his actions go, this kind of thing has been "normal" for the last 300 years." - That would not work at all as a legal defense.

"This isn't a police state now." - Yes it is, and it will get much worse in the future. Had you been in New Orleans during hurricane Katrina you might think otherwise. My friend was arrested the other day for playing his trombone in his neighborhood in a Secondline funeral parade, a century old tradition here. The police received a complaint call from a new, rich white neighbor (according to my neighbors). The police sided with the rich person, not the people who built the neighborhood 300 years ago.

"If you want to see "police state", read about Soviet Russia." - My definition of police state is not narrowly defined by one example. Plus, by your own definition we are slipping into a police state: TIA, NSA wiretaps, TIPS, mercenary armies used to police Americans, suspension of Habeas Corpus, et al. This occurred in Russia in some form.

"This world is not puppies and rainbows..." - Straw Man.

"Some of those people will refuse to come quietly regardless of how nice and polite the officer is to them." - I agree.

"Should the officer just give up so as not to cause any unwanted trauma?" - Straw Man.

"I would like to hear an alternative suggestion that's actually reasonable and pragmatic before I condemn officers for using force on uncooperative people." - On this, I wholeheartedly agree.

[aikoaiko]

192. take some maalox, I'm not arguing for police brutality.

My point in showing this video is that many people question police as to why they don't use brute force to take control over someone (like the Don't Tase Me Bro guy and many others).

Here is a 15 year old, skinny girl and she's difficult to control without using force. Because the police gave her many chances to acquiesce it also gave her a chance to bite him on the wrist, and then she got roughed up and sprayed. This encounter had two people get hurt and it could have been much worse.

I can see why a LEO might think its more humane and less dangerous to use a taser to gain immediate control and compliance so that both parties are less likely to be seriously injured.

I am not arguing for police brutality. But if you think using force to make an arrest of a resisting person is abuse -- then I can see you might say I am.

[me b zola]

208. She was scared. People have reason to fear the police

What appears to be resisting arrest to you looks like the 'fight or flight' response to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response

The girl was scared to begin with, but she did not bite him until he slammed her head into the hood of the car. He punched and maced her not to "control" her, but in retaliation. Watch the video again.


Does this happen in Norway? If not why not? What other countries does this not happen in? In what countries do you think that the citizenry fears the police, and the police act as brutal ("forceful" for you) as they do here? Ask yourself those questions and then you might see a pattern that would help you to understand my POV.

[Solon]

223. There is no "perfect" nation where police abuse doesn't happen...

The major differences are who is the target of said abuse, usually its whatever racial, religious or ethnic minority is most prominent within said nation. I'm sure if you ran into some Roma in Norway, Sweden, or Finland, they may not have nearly as many kind words for the police there as the Majority Scandinavian ethnic groups do. France is another example, with the reports of police abuse and harassment of the minority African Muslim immigrant population. Great Britain seems to like to shoot unarmed brown men for no reason, 3 in the back of the head, etc.

[NOLALady]

229. Fear the police?

Why yes. I don't know any adult women who will stop after dark for a traffic stop. They would rather drive home and run the risk of being arrested.

In fact a policeman's wife was beaten pretty bad about a year ago in broad daylight because she drove home rather than stop. Her Mother in law was then attacked when she came outside. Some people are quite justified in their fear of policemen.

[distantearlywarning]

218. A question for everyone participating in this thread:

We've discussed at great length what the cop should or should not have done in this situation.

Now I want to know: What do you think the GIRL should have done?

What do you think she should have done from a moral perspective (i.e., what was "right" and "just")?

What do you think she should have done from a pragmatic perspective (i.e., what behavior would increase her chances of getting a good outcome, whatever that means for you)

When answering this question, assume whatever you want about the motivations and basic alignment of the police officer, from "Cop Doing His Job" to "Brutal Enforcer of the Police States of America".

[slackmaster]

221. The girl shouldn't have been out in the first place; she should have cooperated

If she was MY daughter I'd compel her to give that cop a formal written apology for biting him and for generally being a fucking bitch.

She would be so grounded it would be almost unbelievable.

[Solon]

226. I don't know, until I know what happened before the camera started rolling...

its as simple as that, I will not defend nor condemn the suspect, nor the cop, unless I know what lead to this escalation in the first place.

[Pithlet]

227. I don't think anyone claims the girl did no wrong.

Speaking for myself, I'm saying that what she did doesn't merit being brutalized. It should never have gotten to that point to begin with. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a cop to react proportionately. Why couldn't the cop think "She's a kid. Enforcing a curfew isn't worth hurting her?" If this were an adult, I might feel differently, or if the violation were different. I simply don't think breaking curfew warrants over the hood of the car treatment.

[Solon]

232. That's the biggest puzzle of all...

Violating curfew is about as severe, even less so, than jaywalking, yet we don't arrest jaywalkers, we ticket them. As I said before, she was alone with him, for a half hour, before the camera started rolling. What happened to escalate this to lead to an arrest in the first place?

[Pithlet]

236. That's why I wonder if there isn't more to this.

I would hope that most cops would be competent enough to not let a mere curfew break escalate to this point. I don't think it's a violation worthy of arrest to begin with. If they're actually arresting kids for breaking curfew, then that is ridiculous.

[tammywammy]

240. Agreed

I think something must have happened to escalated her actions to this point. There are many scenarios at this point.

But what the camera showed and the officer was purposely making sure that they stayed in the camera range, I think he acted appropriately.


**But I agree, arresting someone for violating curfew is ridiculous, but this girl could have been a repeat offender. Or maybe he did let her go an hour earlier and then saw her again. :shrug: I'll wait to read more on this.

[Pithlet]

246. I don't think something must have happened.

I think it's possible something happened. I also think it's possible this cop was overreacting because he's a crappy cop. I don't think the fact he did it in front of a camera makes it more likely he was within bounds, because cops are caught on their own videos doing wrong all the time. I'm more likely to think that if this is what's getting caught on camera, I shudder to think what is happening off camera. Another clue that makes me lean more toward crappy cop is the pepper spray. Yes, she absolutely shouldn't have bit him, and she should face charges for that. But, pepper spray shouldn't be used as retaliation. He already had her pinned against the car. He actually had to use one arm to struggle to get the spray out. It seems to me that arm would have been put to better use preventing her from biting again. If he could spare that arm, then I think he had it under control enough. Regardless of what happened before, I think it was clear the cop was handling the whole thing very badly.

[distantearlywarning]

238. Ok, assume worst case scenario if you would like.

The cop stopped her and told her he would arrest her if she didn't take all her clothes off and lay in the back seat of his cruiser.

Now...what should the girl have done?

[Solon]

242. Considering he is armed, nothing, and then, futily try to press charges later...

This is assuming she's rational, however, being a 15 year old teenager, I doubt she would act rationally, so she would have either tried to run away or fight him off.

[distantearlywarning]

239. Ok, but we've already heard all the opinions about the cop.

If you would like, assume the cop is a total asshole who gets off on brutalizing teenagers and arresting them for minor offenses just for fun.

Given that situation...what should the girl have done? What would you advise your daughter to do if it happened to her?

I'm not asking you to make a moral judgment about the girl. I'm asking you to provide some *pragmatic* (or if you like, moral) advice about dealing with this situation.

[Pithlet]

244. Yes. It isn't smart to resist the cops.

I'm not arguing that. But, the fact that that is so doesn't give cops carte blanche to do whatever they want. Police have responsbility, too. If the cop is using more force than is called for, then he's using more force than is called for. That needs to be addressed. If a victim of police brutality did anything wrong, of course that should be addressed as well, but that still doesn't negate the fact that they're a victim of brutality, and the cop needs to be held accountable for it. It's possible that something happened before that tape that explains everything. But, if this were simply a case of stopping a kid for curfew and the kid resists, then yes, that cop absolutely went too far with it. She wouldn't have bit him if he hadn't have let it get to that point to begin with.

[TK421]

247. I've seen the video, and I can't see what the cop did wrong here

He asked the girl to put her hands behind her back repeatedly, and she did not comply. He must have asked her to do this about thirty times or so, and she bit him on his arm ( assault ) Pepper spray seemed to do the job in settling her down. I'm wondering if she would have gotten maced if she hadn't bitten him.

[Orsino]

254. They're quick to use the taser...

...because it's marketed to them as a nonlethal means to make their jobs easier and less dangerous.

It's not completely nonlethal. Every resulting death or serious injury makes them look cruel, when they may be nothing more than a little lazy and fearful.

[NOLALady]

259. Fearful. Right.

Fearful of children, inebriated women, people in wheelchairs, Fathers holding new born babies.

If they are lazy and fearful maybe they should seek other means of employment. They shouldn't be in a position where they are expected to protect and serve.

[aikoaiko]

263. 24 hours after starting this thread ....

I decided to hold off posting for a while because I was definitely reacting too much and not thinking before I was posting.

My main point was to show just how difficult it is to get someone in handcuffs who is resisting because of so many comments in taser threads suggesting that police just manhandle their way with subjects instead of tasering them. This encounter went from bad to worse and it could have gotten much worse if she had kept assaulting the officer and he kept escalating the use of force to subdue her.

I agree with many that is is reasonable to ask what happened before the beginning of the tape and whether or not an arrest (or being detained in hand cuffs) was necessary, but thats outside my main point. Even if she wasn't doing anything wrong, resisting arrest and assaulting the officer was a bad strategy for rectifying the situation. Of course, if the police had no reason to arrest, then he should face severe consequences.

No one wants to support police brutality, but clearly there are different lines for the use of force for different people at DU. There are some who here assume the worst of police at every opportunity and perhaps there are some who have their head in the sand on the over use of force. Perhaps I lean more to the latter than the former. Sorry to offend if I have, but I believe that most police are doing a fine job of serving and protecting.

[Pithlet]

266. I think there are better examples.

I'm not the type who thinks that all cops are bad. I do realize that force is often necessary, and that not all uses of force are abuse. Many police do do a fine job, but I also think there is an epidemic of excessive use of force, and I blame tazers for a big part of it. I thought they were a bad idea from the very beginning. I thought they would make it far easier and more tempting for abuse. Cops who are in a situation where extreme force isn't called for and wouldn't even think about using a club because of the bruises and damage will use a tazer in that instance thinking it's less harmful and therefore no big deal, and this leads down the road to excessive force. And it seems that this is indeed what is happening. From the very beginning the way these were marketed to police forces by their maker was ridiculous.

[aikoaiko]

270. If you have video links to bigger or more cops having trouble subduing and cuffing

someone who is resisting the police, I'll take those links.

eta: because that is what I saying it is an example of.

[Pithlet]

271. I don't have any.

But I'm sure they wouldn't be too hard to find. I think it is an example of a cop doing a very poor job in his attempt to subdue and cuff. His misuse of the pepper spray alone was beyond ridiculous.

[aikoaiko]

272. Tell me why, if you don't mind, why the pepper spray was ridicuous.

[Pithlet]

273. It was ridiculous because he was using it as retaliation.

He already had her pinned against the car with her arm twisted behind her back. Spraying her face with it was only going to infuriate her even more and make it even harder to subdue her. If he could spare his arm to pull it out and use it, then he probably shouldn't have been using it.

[aikoaiko]

274. I disagree that it was ridicilous and here is why.

When I see that video, it looks like he is doing his best to be firm and forceful without breaking her arms or dislocating her shoulder. I have no doubt that he is strong enough to do either. As she resisted, his use of force increased but was still not using all his might.

He almost gets the second arm back and in cuffs, but she twists free and brings the arm underneath her. He tries to get the arm behind her and she bites him and her second arm is in front of her now. He sprays her very briefly and she almost immediately complies. No more bites, and very little resisting that could have led to broken bones or other injuries.

I think spraying her after she bit him and continued to resist by not putting her arm behind her, was a reasonable (but perhaps not the only) choice.

As far as retaliation goes -- he looks angry. And I don't blame him. But I can't say the spray wasn't reasonable. If she had placed her arm behind her and said I give up, and then he sprayed her or sprayed her after she was cuffed, then I think you would have a good case for retaliation. But she was continuing to resist and not comply.

What do you think he should have done after she bite him?

[Pithlet]

275. What do I think he should have done? Not pepper sprayed her face.

I'm sure there were numerous things he could have done as a trained police officer with the use of both of his arms. If he could spare one of his arms to wrestle with the pepper spray, then I think his options weren't completely limited to that. Resisting and not complying does not justify brutal use of excessive force. Pepper spray isn't meant for punishment, and it's clear that's how he was using it. That is highly inappropriate.

[aikoaiko]

276. We'll have to agree to disagree.

I think the pepper spray avoided worse.

[Pithlet]

277. Worse? He didn't avoid worse. He tazered her.

If you're going to try to make the case to people who think all cops are bad that there are good ones out there doing a good job, then I think you should use video of a good cop doing a good job, and not an idiot who's clearly lost control after letting it escalate to a point it should never have, and does a boneheaded thing like use pepper spray to punish the very person he should be trying to calm down. A kid, no less. It really was one of the worst examples you could have used. It isn't the absolute worst, of course. But, it was pretty bad.

[aikoaiko]

279. Um. he didnt taser her.

Yes worse. Broken bones or dislocated shoulder from wrenching her arm, broken teeth from hitting the hood of the car again, or even worse, she slips free and gets hit by a passing car...theres worse then some pain from pepper spray.

But again, we can disagree about that too.

You may think that a large male officer should always be able to cuff a young, little girl without incident, but the example shows that its not always so simple especially if the minor is resisting and the leo is trying not to hurt the minor. The video is a good example of a difficult situation.

[NOLALady]

280. The bright side.

This girl as well as her friends in the community probably learned something from this incident. Hopefully, this will teach them how important it is to become active and involved. These incidents should work as a wake up call to the young.

[Catherine Vincent]

269. IMO, he didn't do enough to calm her down.

There are many reasons why she didn't want to be cuffed. She probably thought she was too young or maybe she thought the cop was going to send her to jail or maybe do something to her. I hate that she resisted like that, but we don't know why she did. The child looks like she only weighs about 50 pounds. That cop could have handled it better and with out the pepper spray. And I hate to say this but the cop looks like he got off bending her over the car like that.

[Bubba HoHoHo Tep]

278. We just had a case in DC

Where a 15-year-old boy was shot by police. Forget who gets blamed because it's still being fought out. The problem is everyone knew for years this kid was hanging with thugs, out late at night and questioned in numerous shootings. The family did nothing until he was killed. The idea of a curfew, rightly or wrongly enforced, is to FORCE parents to get involved. Too many don't.