John Edwards says Clinton's top advisor represents Blackwater and is like her "Karl Rove"

[jsamuel]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3018300

In a scathing attack, Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards went after front-runner Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., Friday, calling her a "corporate Democrat," comparing top Clinton campaign strategist Mark Penn to former Bush aide Karl Rove and assailing Penn's ties to Blackwater USA, the embattled private firm of military contractors accused by the Iraqi government of firing upon and killing 11 unarmed Iraqi civilians last month.

"Bush has been a perfect example of cronyism because Blackwater has given hundreds of thousands of dollars to Republicans and to President Bush," Edwards said in an interview with the Associated Press while campaigning in Iowa. "I also saw this morning that Sen. Clinton's primary adviser, Mark Penn, who is like her Karl Rove -- his firm is representing Blackwater."

...

In addition to his role as a top campaign consultant to the Clinton campaign, Mark Penn is the worldwide president and CEO of Burson-Marsteller. The firm's lobbying subsidiary BKSH helped Blackwater's top executive, Erik Prince, prepare for his congressional testimony this week.

Penn could not be reached for comment, but Burson-Marsteller spokesman Paul Cordasco said in a statement that "through a personal relationship, BKSH, a subsidiary of Burson-Marsteller, helped Blackwater prepare for their recent hearing before Congress. With the hearing over, BKSH's temporary engagement has ended."

The Clinton campaign had no comment.

http://jsamuelirregular.blogspot.com

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[AndyA]

1. Holy conflict of interest, Batman!

Everyone has their hand in someone's pocket, it seems. :(

[global1]

2. Oh Great - More Comforting News About HRC......

its not bad enough that * has been "sending messages" to HRC to give her "wiggle room" on Iraq - but now we find out that HRC has her own Rove wannabee in her ranks that has Blackwater ties. A week or two ago I heard that she has goons that keep unfriendlies out of her campaign activities.

Where are we going here?

GHWB 4yrs + WJC 8yrs + GWB 8yrs + HRC 4 or 8yrs = 24 to 28years dominance by two families

[populistdriven]

146. Time to reform this Two-Family system of Government

Forty percent of Americans have never lived when there wasn't a Bush or a Clinton in the White House.

DMCA III
CALEA III
NAFTA III
China MFN III

How much more punishment do you want?

[leftist_not_liberal]

181. Time to bone up on the fascist field of "PR"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1987870&mesg_id=1988347

[populistdriven]

213. ooooo no you dint (I love that post)!!!!! keep it up

:) :yourock:

[H2O Man]

3. Nominated.

This is exactly the type of thing that we should be discussing on DU.

[BelgianMadCow]

9. Totally agreed. This, too, is what primaries are for

[H2O Man]

27. Yep.

I'm curious how the Clinton supporters will view this. Will they respond on this thread? Is it something they consider okay? Or could it change their opinion on the Clinton campaign?

[BelgianMadCow]

39. A thorough debate

based on facts, on the edge but not over it, benefits both parties involved.

[frazzled]

62. Not a Clinton supporter ... but

as a liberal Democrat how do I view this? With a yawn. Mark Penn may be no angel, but so what if a subsidiary of his massive PR firm was hired by a company to coach its CEO for testimony? Lawyers get hired by criminals, PR/lobbying firms get hired by companies on the hotseat to improve their image and advise on what to say.

This story doesn't have much more of an impact on me than Edwards earning $500,000 working for a hedge fund, one of whose subsidiaries stiffed Katrina victims on mortgages.

People in glass houses, and all that.

But then, I'm not planning to vote for either Hillary or Edwards at this point, and probably won't.

[H2O Man]

71. The article says

it was done as a result of a personal relationship. It may not mean much of anything to some people. But I think it's of interest, and hope that the media will continue to explore that personal relationship.

[frazzled]

88. The article says the subsidiary guy had the relationship

not Penn.

Would you make the same argument for Edwards regarding the subsidiary of his hedge fund?

Furthermore, to call Penn "Karl Rove" is pretty damned over the top. This is the kind of hateful innuendo that makes me dislike John Edwards so much: it's the same old smear by association that has been ruining the political landscape in this country for the last 15 years. Sunny face don't work? Try some invective. Try anything. Be for the war, be against it. People will buy anything if they're gullible enough.

If hate for Hillary is what motivates you, I can't help you. I am not supporting Hillary, but this kind of thing does drive me to defend her. I can criticize her for specific votes and policies, but this guilt by association thing and stupid charges like "meanness" and all the right-wing-type hatred really makes me disgusted.

[H2O Man]

128. You are way off base.

I don't "hate" Senator Clinton. I like her. I've met her a couple of times. I've donated to her senate campaigns. I have not decided on any candidate for president. I have certainly not decided that there is any democrat I would not support. If she is the nominee, I will support her.

One point, however: when you say things like "If hate for Hillary is what moyivates you, I can't help you," it indicates confusion on your part on several levels. It's not simply that I don't hate her. It's also the rather sad thing about you thinking your "help" is either wanted or needed.

Democrats, including those on DU, are capable of looking at things like this, and determining for themselves if they are comfortable or uncomfortable with Clinton's tie to Penn, and his tie to Blackwater.

Attempts to turn this into an attack on Edwards fail on all levels.

[lovuian]

164. I don't no about anybody else but anybody connected with

Blackwater must be Black Op so ANY connection is scary

Hillary definitely has some questionable people

[frazzled]

173. Edwards made a very inflammatory charge here ...

Using the "Karl Rove" and "Blackwater" memes is nothing but red meat--but none of it holds water, as many posters here have pointed out ... unless six degrees of separation is good enough.

Edwards' attempts to appeal to a certain portion of the base is getting out of hand; I think it will backfire as much as Clinton's "inevitability" claims will probably also backfire with obdurate Iowa and New Hampshire voters.

[Tellurian]

141. What disgusts me most of all, is the MOB mentality...Hang'em before you know the facts!

Of course, few candidates are free of ties to corporate America, and even to its less popular quadrants. The hedge fund that employed Edwards before the presidential campaign began also invested heavily in the subprime mortgage industry, and advisers to other leading Democratic candidates also have corporate clients.

But Penn is a singular figure in Clinton’s orbit, often described as her Karl Rove. Campaign sources describe him as the most important figure in determining the campaign’s message; that is, what comes out of the senator’s mouth and goes into her TV ads.

A rumpled pollster known for his extremely detailed surveys, he came to national prominence working on Bill Clinton’s 1996 re-election campaign. His polling firm, Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates was sold to the global advertising powerhouse WPP in 2001 and rolled into Burson, the WPP subsidiary he now heads.

A spokesman for Burson-Marsteller, Paul Cordasco, confirmed that BKSH, a subsidiary of Burson run by Republican strategist Charles Black, had helped prepare Blackwater CEO Erik Prince for his testimony Tuesday before Congress on Blackwater soldiers’ shooting of Iraqi civilians.

"Through a personal relationship, BKSH, a subsidiary of Burson-Marsteller, helped Blackwater prepare for their recent hearing before Congress. With the hearing over, BKSH's temporary engagement has ended,” Cordasco said in an e-mail.

In another e-mail yesterday to Politico, Penn stressed that he is not involved in the Blackwater account, and called the firm’s work on Blackwater’s behalf “a temporary assignment based on a relationship that has concluded.”

Clinton, meanwhile, has — like most other leading Democrats — been a sharp critic of Blackwater, and of the Bush administration’s use of private military contractors in general.

“Let's end outsourcing our government to companies like Blackwater and hold the contractor accountable,” she said on Sept. 30 in Oakland, Calif., according to the San Jose Mercury News.

Wolfson yesterday reiterated that stance.

“Sen. Clinton believes Blackwater must be held accountable for its actions and has laid out a detailed proposal to sharply reduce the number of contractors employed by the federal government by 500,000,” he said. “She has repeatedly stated her concern that such contractors are not as accountable as federal employees.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1007/6219.html

[waiting for hope]

78. They will throw a poll in your face -

That happens often.

[Baby Snooks]

94. "Part of the right-wing conspiracy..."

If too many people make an issue of it, she will claim it's part of the right-wing conspiracy. Worked once, might work twice.

[rabies1]

138. I wasn't expecting the candidates to jump in the mosh pit so soon.

[TahitiNut]

24. Cronyism ... it's the rot that corrupts D.C.

:shrug:

[H2O Man]

29. Right.

It also seems to potentially go beyond cronyism. Blackwater is a philosophy that does not line up with many of our democratic values.

[loudsue]

50. You're far more subtle than I would be with that statement, H2O Man.

I'd probably say something like: Blackwater is a sign that fascism has arrived on our shores.

You're cool.

I'm fried.

[H2O Man]

54. It's interesting to me,

in part because one DUer in particular had been sounding alarms about Blackwater a while back, and I felt those attempts to stimulate interest went largely unnoticed. I also think that the rise of these types of groups has been going on to an extent that most Americans, even DUers, have little understanding of. And, of course, that is certainly part of their tactics.

[jsamuel]

48. true

[H2O Man]

56. I'm hoping that

some of our DU friends who support Senator Clinton will comment on this thread. If what Edwards is saying is accurate, it will be important to me to hear how they view it.

[creeksneakers2]

99. I've heard Mark Penn's name before

along with negative comments about Penn but I can't remember specifically what they said was wrong with him. I don't see Hillary doing anything wrong in this case though. Edwards needs four steps, from Blackwater to the lobbyist to Penn to Hillary to make a connection. Just about anybody is four steps or less from evil.

After reading this I feel a little less favorably toward Hillary but I'm more disappointed in Edwards. Guilt by association and attacks on integrity based on vague and broad unsupported characterizations don't belong in the primaries. If Edwards keeps it up, I will begin posting nasty things about him on the Internet.

[H2O Man]

129. Attempting to turn

this into an anti-Edwards issue seems curious, indeed. But not surprising.

[glowing]

137. This is politics... smear is the name of the game.. its about time they

stop playing toe-tap and start hitting hard. I am tired of the first thing out to HLC's mouth when she speaks or introduces herself saying something to the effect we are all the same, the enemy is RNC and George Bush. Well, no the candidates are not the same. I feel that Hillary is a Ghouliani, except with a female persona and a D behind her name. That panel is not the same. Her policies are not the same as the other's... That is a stupid line. This election is about fighting for an America worth fighting for. This election is about losing the corporate assholes that run our lives and don't do a damn thing for us. This election is about restoring and ideal, a democracy, a hope for everyone.

This continued rift between RNC and DNC will lead to our own personal civil war in this country. We cannot continue labeling each other... Our party thinks the RNC people are drinking kool-aid and are intellectually beneath us. The RNC party believes they are endorsed by God themselves and God will reign.... This is getting worse and worse and worse... the tension is mounting... especially since money is tight, war is on, and people blame each other's party on their lives....

It may just be time to endorse more than a 2 party system...who as far as I can tell seem to have been infiltrated by the corprate masters...and the politicians are on their strings.

[Tellurian]

143. Hi H2O Man ...of course, see post #141

[H2O Man]

161. Oh, I did.

I read it before I got to this post, but after you had edited this. Oh well. Thank you for your response.

I wish that the Clinton supporters would not attempt to make this into a finger-pointing contest, and to put the focus on Edwards. The two other folks who responded with a rather sad "I'm not a Clinton supporter, but I hold this against Edwards" are not going to fool anyone with an IQ over the low teens.

You put something of far more substance, and though I do not find it very reassuring, I do think that you deserve credit for meeting the issue head-on. I can respect that, even if I do not fully agree with the position.

It appears that Senator Clinton is saying that she will reduce the number of contractors in Iraq to 500,000. That's a half-million reasons not to support her in the primaries, for those of us who believe that the Blackwater-type of "contractors" are a force that diminishes democracy.

Again, though we appear to disagree on this issue, I appreciate an honest response.

[Tellurian]

165. Good talking with you..

Yes, she says she will reduce the amount of contractors left in the ME...What was left unsaid and will be another thing she will do is rewrite the signing Bush announced at the SOTU Address last year, giving these contractors power of immunity from prosecution. That one change will give us full powers of prosecution to any abuses incurred by independent contractors. Thats the difference.

[H2O Man]

167. That is good.

Of course, if there is any plan to allow Iraq the "right" to self-govern, they should be prosecuting any thugs that in committing acts of violence in their country. It's mighty hard to listen to George Bush talk about the threat posed to Iraq by Iranians, when he gives Blackwater license to terrorize.

I think that Senator Clinton would do well to deal with this issue quickly. This fellow may become her Bobby Baker if she doesn't.

[Tellurian]

185. If she were president. I'm sure she would..

unfortunately we do not have a large enough majority to over ride a veto of the "contractor immunity" caveat, as of yet.

[kysrsoze]

4. I'm counting the minutes until all the apologists come out and rationalize this too

[jsamuel]

8. So far we have, "it does't matter because Edwards poll numbers are lower"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1984492&mesg_id=1984565

[kysrsoze]

11. Yup. Here's another from the news story post:

"Penn's PR firm was retained by law firms for the Blackwater and their contract is now over."

So you see... it didn't really happen.

[Individualist]

95. Her supporters want everyone to ignore the ELEPHANT in the room

Fat chance!

[lateo]

133. Yep.

I'm really surprise none of them have started screeching yet.

[RufusEarl]

This is getting weird,

wonder what Hillary will have to say about this?

Peace!

[Zandor]

5. I love the smell of desperation n/t

[saracat]

14. I love the smell of truth.Some wouldn't recognize it.Too used to triangulation

and obfuscation!

[Tellurian]

144. Could you provide me the meaning of the word Triangulation?

I'd love to hear your definition..

[Raksha]

80. I love it too. n/t

[Danger Mouse]

83. nice try.

shouldn't you be off advocating for more bombings of innocent civilians?

[mod mom]

96. Are you disputing that Mark Penn has these ties w Blackwater?

[durrrty libby]

172. Yes, he had no ties

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/10/05/blackwater_ties_fodder_for_pol.html?hpid=sec-politics


""Mark Penn did no work on the Blackwater account

Burson has cut its ties to Blackwater and that was the right thing to do. Mark is and remains a valuable member of our team," said Phil Singer, a Clinton campaign spokesman. "Sen. Clinton believes Blackwater must be held accountable for its actions and has laid out a detailed proposal"

[Bluebear]

110. Another seagull post, drop a load of crap and fly away. nt

[silverojo]

125. And what do you expect

That the OP will hang around, just waiting for reply posts from people like yourself? Or does it occur to you that maybe they have a life, and/or would like to view and respond to other threads on this forum?

It's so annoying how some people think that an OP needs to hang around to babysit their threads. Or is it that you simply want to flame them, and get frustrated because they don't want to argue with you?

[Bluebear]

126. Was the post in question aimed at the OP? Or did you misread who it was addressed to?

Before people "like yourself" decided to go pontificating? Why not step back and see how others responded to the same poster?

It's so annoying when people don't follow a thread and who is speaking to whom, and just jump in posting comments willy nilly, to paraphrase a post I saw once :)

[Heywood J]

174. Look at your own timestamp.

02:37 AM

Do you honestly expect the OP to sit around at 3AM and wait up for you, so that you can have a response at any time? What conceit.

[alcibiades_mystery]

112. You have no answer to the charge, then?

Senator Clinton's campaign adviser represents Blackwater? That doesn't trouble you?

Eeek.

[Zandor]

187. "Senator Clinton's campaign adviser represents Blackwater"

No he doesn't.

This is just a guilt-by-association reach. When Edwards made the silly Rove comment, it should have cued you in to how ridiculous he was being. The latest polls have left the man groping.

[Divine Discontent]

120. it seems you are always at odds with most people on here

why is that?

[Zandor]

186. Moderates and Hillary supporters often are. n/t

[Jax]

199. Yep

those muddle of the roaders, always happy to provide right wing crap.

More like a muddle of pud to me...same old right wing junk no matter what you call it.

[Divine Discontent]

201. "often"

Well, does that sound like you're a progressive Democrat then?

[burythehatchet]

6. Wow. Just wow. Perhaps if Mrs Clinton ran as a Republican....

this is infuriating.

[WinkyDink]

7. Just great.

[partylessinOhio]

10. Hillary Bush, who would have thought.

I will vote for the candidate who has no ties to Bush.

[Tellurian]

147. Good to know, Obama is related by blood. nm

[judaspriestess]

12. I'm not surprised unfortunately

[cali]

13. Mr. Penn, is a totally repugnant character

It speaks loudly, and not well, of HRC that he has such a prominent place in her campaign.

I hope this gets some play.

[hisownpetard]

44. And Hillary better speak just as loudly, and SOON, denouncing any affiliation with

someone who is even remotely connected to those guns-for-hire. This is just too much.

[Raven]

15. Is Hillary daring us to sit out the general election???

Can this be true? Is she tone deaf? Does she think we are so desperate for a change that we'll put up with anything? I have promised myself that I will vote Democratic no matter who gets nominated...now I'm really having second thoughts about that...and, on a very personal note: how very sad that they first viable female candidate for the Presidency can be so crass as to have someone who represents the next threat to our democracy so close to her campaign.

[saracat]

17. She doesn't care about you.You express my feelings perfectly.

For the first time in my life I am even considering sitting out the general. And she and her minions do not care.She is already tailoring her approach to the GOP.But what I don't get, is they don't approve of much of this either.So who is she really appealing to?

[loudsue]

51. Um...her contributors in the military/industrial complex?

She hasn't raised all that money for her campaign from those of us here on DU. She is so tied in with the corporate masters....and they ARE her "masters".... that she has no wiggle room. She'll keep us tied to the mafia if she gets the job.

God forbid.

[Tellurian]

149. First you pretend you are in HER league as president..

then, you pretend to speak for her..

delusional much?

[saracat]

180. Where do I pretend to speak for her? And any of the woman I mentioned, including myself

would be a better President. I mention myself only to make the point that just about any Democratic woman would be a better choice. I would hope I am NOT in her league as I do not respect her and her positions. You just do not get that I do not support Hillary do you? I think she is the worst choice we have. I am entitled to my opinion. As you are to yours.

[Tellurian]

189. Of course you're not her her league...She's competent!

[saracat]

194. I am not in her league by choice.She is unethical.I do not support her.Get it?

And why is it you can't answer either questions about your candidate or direct questions asked by posters. Like when did I attempt to speak for your candidate? You know I didn't so as usual, you change the subject. I understand your support of Hillary. You like deflection.

[Tellurian]

203. When you can represent yourself as knowledgeable. I might consider it..

[saracat]

204. You prove my point. These kind of replies are another reason I would never consider your candidate.

It is odd as I used to be quite a fan. Sad really.I still have her picture on my fridge. I'll have to take it down. But I'm keeping my Socks for first cat button! LOL!

[AmBlue]

64. Hill is giving women a bad name...

...straight out the gate and I don't appreciate it one bit.

[rucognizant]

67. Don't !

Sit out the election...vote in the primary and do a write in at the election!

[monmouth]

16. Whoa, not good at all!!

[Disturbed]

25. "we'll put up with anything? "

Sen.Clinton is banking that most Dems will vote for her & will put up with anything. Her campaign is targeted at Moderate Repugs & Swing Voters. She is already acting like she has the Dem Nomination. I hope that John Edwards gets the the 1st two Primary nods.

[SaveElmer]

18. Interesting...

So if I were to bring up the behavior of Tony Rezko, Obama's mentor while in the State Legislature in Illinois, or

Bring up John Edwards work for a hedge fund that foreclosed on many homes including in New Orleans...

That would be unfair right?

Edwards is really trying to pull a fast one...recasting himself in a way that requires we completely forget about his career in the Senate...

[kysrsoze]

20. Or maybe Edwards is just calling bullsh*t on a particularly sick conflict of interest

I almost forgot... HRC can do no wrong.

[SaveElmer]

33. Or maybe Edwards is begin a hypocrite...nt

[kysrsoze]

36. Or maybe you're just in denial n/t

[SaveElmer]

40. Yeah...that's it!

:eyes:

[Yukari Yakumo]

100. Edwards = Hypocrite... How many times have heard that one before?

I think I've lost count.

[Inspired]

23. Maybe you could defend this instead of changing the subject. n/t

[SaveElmer]

34. Nothing to defend...it's a stupid topic...

Another attempt to smear her by association...something which only seems to be relevant here where Hillary is concerned...

[kysrsoze]

37. Don't the numerous associations make you wonder? Just a teensy bit?

Oh no, of course not. Once again, I've forgotten she can do no wrong. How sexist and hatin' of me.

[SaveElmer]

38. No more than the unsavory connections Edwards and Obama supporters...

Seem to feel about their candidates.

[kysrsoze]

41. Well, that would bother me if I supported those two individuals. But alas... it doesn't

Of course, whoever I would tell you I support, you would trash that person.

[stranger81]

115. so what are the connections b/w Obama, Edwards & Blackwater?

Did I miss something? Or did you?

[Heywood J]

177. "Nothing to defend...it's a stupid topic..."

There are plenty of candidates out there who don't have such conflicts. People other than the top three are running.

Now, care to address the point?

[blonndee]

68. And what has that to do with the OP, exactly? It's about Clinton. What do you think about that? nt

[SaveElmer]

85. What I think is that there is a double standard...

One for Hillary that lays every bad thing anyone she ever met at her feet...

And one for just about everyone else that claims such associations are a smear job...

[blonndee]

87. I disagree...every candidate is subject to criticism.

I just think it's dishonest for a candidate's supporters to conduct ad hominem attacks and deflect instead of addressing them directly. This is legitimate criticism.

[liskddksil]

89. As soon as he found out

He divested from that hedgefund and has since used some of his own money to set up a fund to help families that have been hurt by the foreclosures.

[saracat]

182. Hillary doesn't even bother to recast herself.She is the Goldwater Girl she has always been

Hey, she recently stated how grateful she was for her "Republican values" of "hard work and diligrence",like Democrats are all lazy "welfare queens". Oh, thats right, her husband, on whose record she likes to run, cut welfare didn't he?

[question everything]

19. I wish that Edwards will say something positive about his

campaign and his advisers instead of attacking Clinton.

[jsamuel]

21. If you want to see positive things, go here:

http://www.johnedwards.com

[Tellurian]

150. Tell me something...

If Edwards wins the nom, what will happen to us if he doesn't have the money to fight off the Republicans come election time. As of now, he's broke and is looking for public financing. Which means he'll have a few moths of advertising during the winter then go for 9 mos of darkness until the final weeks of the Election. The Republican attack machine will carve him up 6 ways from Sunday and there won't be a ding-dang thing he can do about it because his Treasury has to be held in reseve for the few weeks before the election..

If you expect me to turn over the election to the Republicans, again. You are sadly mistaken.

[Inspired]

183. Self delete. n/t

[rateyes]

28. I bet HIllary would, too.

Tell it like it is, John.

[waiting for hope]

79. Did you see Edwards on

Countdown the other night? He was very gracious to Hillary - but very determined to highlight the differences in their Iraq strategy. That's what people do when they are "campaigning".

[question everything]

103. Yes, and I wish that he would expand his ideas beyond

Iraq and health care. These are two issues that, unless you are a political junkie - like us, DUers - you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

But there are the questions of jobs, and education, and, yes, access to health care, and the stability of Social Security, and the way we treat veterans - he could expand more to show that he is not a one issue candidate, that he has more to offer than just going after Clinton.

[waiting for hope]

134. Good God - I was talking about his

time on Countdown - where he had about three minutes to discuss what he was to discuss. Blame the media for not highlighting his campaign - he has appeared in more campaign events than the other Democrats (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/10/4/13242/5712) and if you want to hear more about his issues, which there are many if you took the time to look, here is a butt load of videos of him "expanding" on the those issues: http://youtube.com/profile?user=johnedwards

[mod mom]

97. Since there is no media to expose these connections, I am glad someone in the spotlight

is. This is information, just like her vote with Kyl Lieberman that every voter needs to know before deciding who to vote for.

[Bluebear]

111. "Attacking" Clinton . . . so are you disputing this?

[w4rma]

127. Edwards is questioning Hillary's anti-labor, pro-merc connections. (nt)

[Tellurian]

151. Too bad for Big Bad John, the Unions are supporting her instead of him...

I guess they are aware he isn't a very good planner if he didn't raise enough money to carry himself through till election day.

[Inspired]

184. All of them??? I don't think so! n/t

[Tellurian]

191. The smart Unions that are supporting Hillary w/their $$$ are ..

because they know she can win...They also know Edwards is all done financially..

[Inspired]

196. I get it...the SMART ones, huh?

I wonder which unions support Hillary's decision to have Penn involved in her campaign. He is after all considered a union buster. Now that is SMART! Supporting a candidate who employees a union buster as a main campaign strategist.

:shrug:

[Tellurian]

202. The Union Busting meme was debunked months ago...

try to keep up!

[Inspired]

207. Was it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1987870

[Tellurian]

210. Of course it was...

does it make sense to you Hillary would have so many Union endorsements if they were going to be busted up by her?

She's PRO-Union all the way!

Please!

[Richard Steele]

22. K&R

[benny05]

26. These are the Clintons

that people miss? :shrug:

[Generator]

30. You go John!

Hillary is lots of guys girls, but not the good guys girls.

[Individualist]

31. Surprise, surprise

I just can't imagine a DLCer doing something like that.

:sarcasm:

[JNelson6563]

32. Well that's rather ugly.

I'm trying to be open minded in case Sen. Clinton actually wins the nom. Things like this don't help.

Julie

[monmouth]

35. I agree, I was willing to hold my nose and well...you know. This is disturbing..

[hyphenate]

42. Why is it that we're all so eager to

find dirt on our own Democratic candidates? Yeah, it is important to know what skeletons are in the closet, but shit, I would rather aim any and all dirty allegations at the Republicans who are trying to win their nomination.

I like Edwards, but I also like most of the potential nominees--it makes me sick to see ANY of them slinging all this mud this early and this often. Are we all so desperate to make our own favorite look like an angel and demonize all the other candidates to the extent that we are? That is, to me, an action that the opposition would do, not the collective "us".

In general, politics is a dirty business, and yes, even every single Democrat as well. Climbing to the top of the heap is an instinctual act, and stepping on the competition is as natural as breathing to many of them. However, we don't have anyone running who hasn't been culpable of some questionable activity, and even if we could stack the deck differently, there is no human being who would achieve the condition of innocence we seem to be looking for.

It's still VERY early in the game--we're going to see it all before the primaries and then candidates will slowly be lost in the process. And as I've said more than once, we can't get so ugly to our own field of candidates because one of them is going to be our nominee, and if we don't give a shit about that candidate, our only other recourse is to vote for a Republican. I don't think I want to do that--you?

[MontanaMaven]

55. All politicians need ambition. But it's what you use the ambition for

that is most important. Edwards has a very decided vision of what he would like America to look like.
Every criticism he makes is not random, but part of the central theme of restoring justice to the United States.
Blackwater is most foul. It is not a minor evil. It is at the very core of the rot in insider Washington. Erik Prince
said that he was not motivated by money. So what do you think the motivation is?

[hyphenate]

73. I don't know;

Perhaps power? So many people seek power. Some who seek it are not the best to hold it--we know that anyway.

Blackwater (how appropos it is the opposite of "Whitewater"!) might be evil, but mercenaries have been around for millennia and will continue to do so. There are too many good "gigs" for them, and too many truly evil people like our current CinC that make sure they find employment. Even during the American Revolution, the Hessians were paid mercenaries--thankfully, they were on our side, but under different circumstances they might have been on the other side. And while Erik Prince might be a great slimebag, he isn't the first to take advantage of a situation and turn it to his best advantage. Some people tend to forget that human beings are not in the first millennia of history (well, unless you're a fundie!) and that horrible people have been around as long as there have been other people to domineer over. It doesn't give much consolation though; the horrors we live with daily are rightly atrocious and incredible, but I think I prefer living now than to live anytime in the past--there is certainly nothing salvagable about living during the Black Plague, for example, or the Spanish Inquisition.

Most of the time, people by themselves don't have much influence as we all know. It's when we're in groups, like protests and voting polls, that we carry our weight. We like to think that we still carry policy as such a group, but even here in the "land of the free" the wealthy are still the ones who determine law and policy. It's been this way all along--while our founding fathers might have been even handed in many ways, none of them were poor. And we tend to forget that in light of all their other gifts to the country.

But make no mistake about it--anyone can reach for the brass ring, so to speak, but it's only when you finally grab it that you derive the greatest ability to use it.

We can only hope that those we elect can hold that power responsibly, but we've seen too many hold it and use it for their own gain and not for the greater good of all the people. In times like those--as the present is a good example--it's only when we join together and show the will of all the citizens are we able to make the difference. But if we don't stay together, we're without even the basic foundation of power and influence, and those who make the laws will continue to be the ones to bend it to their will.

[mark414]

77. um...the Hessians WEREN'T on our side...

[hyphenate]

82. You are right

and I flubbed it. I was, in fact, thinking of Lafayette as one of our compatriots, and was watching TV when my mind wandered and misspoke. (It happens every time I watch TV--now I KNOW why it's called "the boob tube"! :)

However, while they did work for the British, the Hessians were, in fact, mercenaries, so I was partially right, wasn't I? ;)

[mark414]

91. we all make mistakes

even a broken clock is right twice a day....:P

B-) :toast:

[JNelson6563]

70. I'm sorry...what?!?

Who's "we"? "We're all so eager,,,,"

Speak for yourself friend. I am not at all eager to "find dirt" on any Dems. On the contrary I feel genuine disappointment whenever some nastiness comes to light.

Julie

[hyphenate]

76. "We" covers a lot of ground

don't you think? I've just noticed that there is a great deal of bashing going on (just like in 2003-2004 primary season) of our own candidates, and I've said so on many occasions. If you don't fit into that category, then kudos to you, but any hour of the week, there are more Democratic candidate bashing threads at DU than there are Republican ones. And a great many of them specifically bash Hillary.

I don't know about anyone else, but I plan on voting for a Democrat in the general election--I don't care if it's Hillary, John Edwards or Mike Gravel. If people want to continue to bash candidates, that's up to them, but I will consider each and every single one of them a traitor if they refuse to vote for the Democratic candidate in the general election if they don't like who the candidate is, and if a Republican gets the nod.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

43. K&R eom

[hisownpetard]

45. K&R!! n/t

[SeattleGirl]

46. Rachel Maddow just talked about Mark Penn's connection to Hilary.

:thumbsup:

[jsamuel]

47. thanks

:thumbsup:

[usregimechange]

49. Disgusting.

[Tellurian]

152. I agre, disgusting when people are too lazy to research facts...See #141

[MontanaMaven]

52. Part of the Dutch Mafia

I'm Dutch and went to school in Michgan. My parent live where Erik Prince come from. His sister is married to an Amway heir.
In Chicago where I grew up, the Dutch owned all the garbage businesses and the Italian mafia couldn't make a dent.
Amway is a pyramid scheme that uses rallies and group chants and all that weird group think creepy crap.
Then you add that they are all evangelicals. Fire and brimstone Calvinists plus weaponry.
Add to that, the Prince has a big ranch in Wyoming.....near Cheney.....Are we getting the picture here with the latest part of the circle of corporate evil?

[druidity33]

86. wow

excellent connecting the dots... could it be a personal favor to Cheney that had HRC's operative working for Prince's testimony?


good pickup?

:shrug:

[yurbud]

53. this tells you how far Hillary will stray from the status quo--she won't.

[CK_John]

57. Edwards is a whiner and a nag. n/t

[itsrobert]

58. Can't defend Hillary, so you go on the attack?

lol

[mntleo2]

132. She Is A corporatist

...it is sad that Hillary supporters do not seem to understand that this woman is not much different than Bu$h. I am truly afraid of a woman who is emplying an advisor that has been the spokeperson for all the horrible companies such as the chemical companies that murdered millions in India, defended the murders of Pinochet, promoted oil companies who have been involved in the death and misery of millions in Africa, S. America, and here in our own company.

Listen to Rachael Maddow's opening comments yesterday about the man who is so close to Hillary and you will be scared too.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[AmBlue]

65. No, Edwards is just giving us some salient facts. n/t

[Tellurian]

153. Ask him how salient is his campaign if he's broke?

If he couldn't run a worthy campaign as a contender; why bother get into a race he can't win?

This was his proformer for running the White House. Besides his Hedge Fund investments in Sub-Primes have forclosed homes on many Americans, including those in NOLA.

[AmBlue]

216. Russert just asked these questions

...this morning on MTP.

The way he runs a campaign is by NOT taking corporate money and making that plain. It is the difference in who he is as a candidate. Is being awash in corporate money and beholden to corporations the only way a person can be elected president in this country? Are we now just the United CORPORATIONS of America? America Inc... Is that now ALL that we are? With us poor slobs, the People, watching longingly from the sidelines? How sad. Is this Hillary's (or any other candidate who is beholden to the corps) vision for America?

I've got a newsflash for you: The PEOPLE can make ANYONE President that we choose.

And Edwards got out of those hedge funds as soon as he knew of the foreclosures. End of story. What Edwards has done throughout his life speaks for itself. He's fought for the little guy all his life and will continue to do so. He is the TRUE progressive candidate and he can WIN.

[Quixote1818]

59. Lawyers represent all kind of bastards. That doesn't mean the lawyer is evil

I am not sure why this is an issue?

[1932]

92. He's not a lawyer. He's a lobbyist. Lobbyists don't have an ethical obligation to give clients

zealous but lawful respresentation. They're paid to protect their clients' financial best interests regardless of the ethical considerations. They're not officers of the court and they don't lose their licenses if they violate the law or ethical rules.

[1932]

93. He's not a lawyer. He's a lobbyist. Lobbyists don't have an ethical obligation to give clients

zealous but lawful respresentation. They're paid to protect their clients' financial best interests regardless of the ethical considerations. They're not officers of the court and they don't lose their licenses if they violate the law or ethical rules.

[BrightKnight]

60. She shouldn't hire the best consultants if they will work for anyone.

If you rule out all of the consultants that have ever worked for an opposition party or an interest that someone might find objectionable you will be left with the most righteous and moral people. You can only win elections with the most pious people. The good guys always win in politics.

[Quixote1818]

61. Edwards better be careful because I am sure at least one of his clients was

a real criminal. Suggesting a law firm or a lawyer is bad because one of their clients is bad falls flat as a pancake in my opinion.

[Tafiti]

66. He was a plaintiff's lawyer, IIRC.

You don't get a lot of "criminals" bringing civil tort cases...

On edit: It's a PR firm, not a law firm. And Burson-Marsteller is worst-of-the-worst of PR firms - they specialize in representing corporations that kill people and destroy the environment. :thumbsdown:

[1932]

135. Why is everyone critical of Edwards's comment pretending that Penn is a lawyer?

Is a lie the only way to defend the immoral Washington insider power hegemony?

[stlsaxman]

63. Let's keep this alive through the weekend to avoid the "Friday Dump".

Kick it all over the MSM!

:kick:

[halobeam]

69. kick and rec

I'd love to see a heavy thread here, with everyone's input.

[MasonJar]

72. That's right jump on Hillary when the article clearly states that a subsidiary

of Penn's firm gave legal advice to the Blackwater guy before his testimony. Do we now say that people should not seek legal advice?

[waiting for hope]

81. Okay, remember that the

next time Edwards "Hedge Fund" issue comes up. Play six degrees of separation if you will, Mark Penn is a close and trusted adviser to her:

~Snip~

Eight years later, it is Clinton who is running for president, and Penn, 53, is her chief strategist. While not her campaign manager in name, Penn controls the main elements of her campaign, most important her attempt to define herself to an electorate seemingly ready for a Democratic president but possibly still suffering from Clinton fatigue.

In the four months since Clinton officially became a candidate, Penn has consolidated his power, according to advisers close to the campaign, taking increasing control of the operation. Armed with voluminous data that he collects through his private polling firm, Penn has become involved in virtually every move Clinton makes, with the result that the campaign reflects the chief strategist as much as the candidate.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/29/AR2007042901661.html

Sounds a bit "Rovian" to me.

[1932]

90. It's not "legal" advice. It's spin advice. They're helping them to keep making money at the cost of

decent and just world.

[earth mom]

74. Not surprised...and...I told ya'll so. nt

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

75. k&r. nt.

[Danger Mouse]

84. more of the same garbage...

why do people like her again? is she going to actually change anything?
ha. like hell.
pro war in iraq.
pro war in iran.
pro corporations.
con AMERICA.

[Ilsa]

98. Wouldn't it be great if we could torture Rethugs with our own version of KKKarl? nt

[HughMoran]

101. Well, isn't this an interesting turn of events

I will be waiting for a comment on this one!

[CoffeeCat]

102. Hillary is total poison...

...how much more evidence do the Hillary fanatics need?

She's got Blackwater ties on the left and Rupert Murdoch ties on the right, and
in the middle are the corporations who have paid her to serve their interests, while
she stands around like a deer in the headlights--saying next to nothing about our
democracy sliding into hell.

It's about time that a Dem had the guts to call a spade a spade.

I haven't decided yet which Dem candidate I'm supporting. However, Edwards
gained some points with me today.

[tiptoe]

104. Edwards has now raised a serious debate question, unignorable by moderators. nt

[Blackhatjack]

105. HRC cannot wipe away the stain of ceding power to Blackwater PR promoters...

This is a fact that HRC cannot disprove. And foreknowledge of the previous activities of these individuals was a given.

Will be interesting to see how she handles this one.

[Tellurian]

154. She doesn't have too... see post #141

[calteacherguy]

106. Cheap shot by Edwards. HRC has no direct involvement in representing Blackwater

and in any case, everyone is entitled to legal representation, as Edwards should know.

[Blackhatjack]

108. HRC hired as her trusted advisor a Blackwater PR promoter --NOT A CHEAP SHOT to call her on it

.... but of course if you do not actually read the news it makes it easier to bash Edwards here.

[calteacherguy]

178. I don't think this is even an issue. nt

[pointblank]

107. Dammit...Bush, Clinton, Bush...Clinton?

It seems that Karl Rove is setting up Jeb for the White House...



It really would be nice not to start a monarchy here in our short time with the USA; I mean a lot of old dudes did fight and die for that NOT to happen...yes, Hilary is a woman, and yes we definitely need women in higher govt'...but goddamn, it would be weird if her an Bill ran the White House...then again it would be a hell of a lot nicer than it is now...but shit...what do you do; she IS going to win...the news told me so!


help?

[Tellurian]

156. Try again...The catoon is cute...thats about it..

the rest is all delusional Ad Hominum.

[happygoluckytoyou]

109. NOTICE THE GOP BACKING CLINTON.... THEY WANT HER TO WIN

TELL EVERYONE YOU KNOW....

EDWARDS IS THE WINNINGIST CANDIDATE WE HAVE....

IT IS TIME FOR THE DEMOCRATS TO DUMP THE GOP SHILL FOR A TRUE FRIEND OF LABOR

[alcibiades_mystery]

113. You damn skippy the GOP wants HRC

This whole primary is a monumental farce, and the DU supporters of Clinton, well, I won't break the rules...

[backscatter712]

114. Hillary is dead to me.

Her hiring of a Blackwater shill is the last fucking straw. She is no Democrat. Or more correctly, she's about as much of a Democrat as Joe Lieberman.

We need to make it our mission in life to break her political ambitions. Neither Hillary, nor any Republican must be allowed near the Oval Office.

[JMDEM]

116. Have you all forgotten that...

Bill pardoned many of the Iran / Contra clowns who have come back to run the show today? If there had been trials held on those people, a lot of the stuff today might not be happening.

So what is the bargain with Hillary? Is she going to pardon any Bush officials who get in deep doo-doo after 2008? Keep it all hidden under the rug? Hell, they've already annointed her the winner. I guess they figure they can't pull off an election heist with the Republicans so unpopular, so might as well put in a pseudo-republican and ride it out.

And then Jeb comes along in 2012 or 2016?

All of these clowns are members of the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR) or the Trilateral Commission. They regularly meet and decide upon world financial strategy. Check it out yourself if you don't believe me.

[1932]

136. Bush I pardoned the Iran Contra criminals.

[JMDEM]

206. Darned -- you are right -- I'm gonna have to whump one of my sources over the head for that one

Clinton did pardon these clowns:

Name Home Town offenses

ALTIERE, Nicholas M. Las Vegas, Nevada Importation of cocaine
BAGLEY, Chris Harmon Harrah, Oklahoma Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute cocaine
BLAMPIED, David Roscoe Ketchum, Idaho Conspiracy to distribute cocaine
BROWDER, Leonard Aiken, South Carolina Illegal dispensing of controlled substance and Medicaid fraud
CHAMBERS, Donna Denise Memphis, Tennessee Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute and to distribute cocaine, possession with intent to distribute cocaine, use of a telephone to facilitate cocaine conspiracy
LOPEZ, Hildebrando San Isidro, Texas Distribution of cocaine
MANESS, James Timothy Conspiracy to distribute a controlled substance
MORGAN, Charles Wilfred, III Little Rock, Arkansas Conspiracy to distribute cocaine
OBERMEIER, Vernon Raymond Belleville, Illinois Conspiracy to distribute cocaine, distribution of cocaine, and using a communications facility to facilitate distribution of cocaine
OGALDE, Miguelina Glendale, California Conspiracy to import cocaine
RILEY, Richard Wilson, Jr. Possession of cocaine with intent to distribute
ROSS, Anna Louise Lubbock, Texas Distribution of cocaine
SANDS, Gregory Lee Sioux Falls, South Dakota Conspiracy to distribute cocaine
SCHWIMMER, Adolph Conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, conspiracy to export arms and ammunition to a foreign country and related charges
VAMVOUKLIS, Ignatious Exeter, New Hampshire Possession of cocaine
WILLIAMS, Kevin Arthur Omaha, Nebraska Conspiracy to distribute and possess with intent to distribute crack cocaine
WOOD, Mitchell Couey Sherwood, Arkansas Conspiracy to possess and to distribute cocaine

[Hoof Hearted]

117. Edwards sounds pretty desperate.

Who is HIS Karl Rove?



I understand he's behind and he needs to move but this doesn't endear him much to me.

I say this as one who loves his wife and admired him through the pool/drain case. I lived in Raleigh during that time.

[Bluebear]

118. What does this have to do with Edwards? Do you dispute the fact?

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/clinton-strategist-represents-blackwater/

Clinton Strategist Represents Blackwater

By Patrick Healy

Mark Penn is the chief strategist for Hillary Rodham Clinton’s presidential campaign, working 24/7 on her behalf (indeed, he is known to send email at 2 a.m.) and earning tens of thousands of dollars in fees.

With that sort of day-and-night job, you would think Mr. Penn would have time for little else. Indeed, other Clinton senior advisers took leaves of absences or turned down clients in order to work for the campaign.

But he somehow manages to remain president of Burson-Marsteller, a publicly traded global public affairs firm. And as such, he is inevitably linked to Burson’s clients — not all of whom are, shall we say, on Mrs. Clinton’s Christmas card list.

Today we learned that recently one of those clients was Blackwater — the American contractor that provides security to some top American officials in Iraq, and which is under investigation for allegedly aggressive tactics and the role of its guards in the shooting at a Baghdad city square where 17 Iraqis were killed.

[Divine Discontent]

121. pretty damning if you ask me!

but some of these people are set in stone Clintonites, no matter what they're associated with they can do no wrong, much like the Bushites. They can be a scary group ya know. Yes, HRC would pick better SCOTUS justices, but, I'd rather have someone I can admire and who'll fight for the poor and working class, I don't think HRC will do that like the rest. And of the people I know who are not Democrats, they tend to favor Obama, and are put off by HRC. So, she would probably cause us another defeat in 08, and if that happens, I'll either leave for Europe as it has been a long time dream of mine, or switch to the Green party and kiss my longtime affiliation to the Dems away - I certainly hope our base does not support her for the nominee. I wish her all the best, but we've got better than her!

[JMDEM]

119. If he's desperate...

You can thank the ridiculously short primary period we have this year. I like Edwards (would prefer Gore) but he's up against a horrendously short time limit.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

122. Edwards' statement was false, if anyone cares.

A successful lawyer ought to know the difference between "was" and "is."

(And yes, I recognize the Clinton era irony of that)

[Bluebear]

124. Are you in the know? When did she sever her relationship?

[Tellurian]

157. I'm in the know...see post #141..

and thanks to Kurt_Hunter...

[Bluebear]

159. "The Clinton campaign had no comment" - why?

[Tellurian]

163. Read #141 or #160

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

205. You're welcome, but I wish to distance myself from Hillaryis44.com

Ugly site. Not to my tastes at all.

[Yukari Yakumo]

130. Bonus Irony!

Edwards' campaign manager was a former White House speechwriter for the Clinton Administration.

[populistdriven]

142. The Clinton campaign had no comment.

speaks volumes

[Nutmegger]

123. R&K for Edwards...

:thumbsup::kick:

[Imagevision]

131. Hillary: elect me president and I'll end the war (after my first term maybe)

[iamthebandfanman]

139. oh my!

well, thats gotta be a blow to the ole campaign if ive ever seen one... especially voters here on DU and the 'base'

ouch.

hope it gets some legs n dents her lead.

[Canuckistanian]

140. Shocking lack of judgement on HRC's part

Is she going to hire goons like him if she gets to be president?

Or if she didn't know what kind of guy he was (bloody unlikely), will she fire him?

And I don't care one bit about Edward's calling him a Karl Rove. This guy and his company are just as dangerous as Rove and should be denounced, not hired.

[Tellurian]

158. See post #141..

so you don't continue making yourself look foolish!

[Canuckistanian]

166. Sorry, I'm not giving her a pass on this one. More info on Burson-Marsteller:

I merely had to look up Burson-Marsteller on SourceWatch. They're a slimy organization.

Go and read this:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Burson-Marsteller

"Fake news". Working with Tobacco companies. Creating front groups for Big Pharma. Big Oil Anti-Global Warming groups.

A PAC that raised money in 2004 and gave 58% of it to Republicans.

Bribing journalists to attend a Drug Regulator's Appeal:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Burson-Marsteller_Offers_Journalists_Cash_to_Attend_Drug_Regulator%27s_Hearing

As far as I'm concerned, even talking to this organization is a lapse in judgement, NEVER MIND the fact that they're involved in Blackwater.

It's time to stop using these disgusting PR firms.

[Tellurian]

190. Are you a dual citizen?

[Joanne98]

145. Not surprising. The Clintons are total sellouts........

Just like in 92', when Bill Clinton said he was against NAFTA in the debates with Perot and Bush 1. Then when he got into office he passed NAFTA almost immediately. Then came de-regulation of energy, banking and telecom. Then welfare reform. Then he made more crimes punishable by death. Then they put more blacks in jail then any other administration in history. etc etc.......Bill Clinton was the best damn Republican president we ever had. He covered up the embezzlement of a trillion dollars thru the HUD department by Bush 1. (saz Catherine Austin Fitts) He also gave a billion dollar gold mine to Barricks Gold (Bushco) for 5000 dollars. I fully expect the Clintons to cover up all the crimes of the Bushes when they get into office. They did it last time, they'll do it again.

Last election we had Skull and Bones vs Skull and Bones. This time we have Wall street vs Wall Street. It's a joke and NO I don't believe the polls I think they are totally phony. Forty percent of the Republican base hates Guilliani BUT he ahead in the polls. NO way. The polls are LYING!

[Tactical Progressive]

209. I think Hillary is going to be substantially stronger than Bill

on things like that.

Just a feeling, and I may be wrong, which would be troubling, but I have a very strong sense that Hillary will be alot less congenial towards Republican directions than Bill was when she gets power, if for no other reason than that she's learned from the earlier experience: compromise with Republicans means they'll still fuck you when they have the power. There is no such thing as bipartisanship with rabid righties, and they're all rabid when they are empowered.

I know there's little proof that it will be so, but I don't expect any at this point. That is the point.

[ToeBot]

148. Penn (Burson-Marsteller) are connected to Bush-buddy Alvaro Uribe as well.

A nest of vipers.

[Tellurian]

160. Illuminate yourself...instead of positing Bull Crap!

A rumpled pollster known for his extremely detailed surveys, he came to national prominence working on Bill Clinton’s 1996 re-election campaign. His polling firm, Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates was sold to the global advertising powerhouse WPP in 2001 and rolled into Burson, the WPP subsidiary he now heads.

A spokesman for Burson-Marsteller, Paul Cordasco, confirmed that BKSH, a subsidiary of Burson run by Republican strategist Charles Black, had helped prepare Blackwater CEO Erik Prince for his testimony Tuesday before Congress on Blackwater soldiers’ shooting of Iraqi civilians.

"Through a personal relationship, BKSH, a subsidiary of Burson-Marsteller, helped Blackwater prepare for their recent hearing before Congress. With the hearing over, BKSH's temporary engagement has ended,” Cordasco said in an e-mail.

In another e-mail yesterday to Politico, Penn stressed that he is not involved in the Blackwater account, and called the firm’s work on Blackwater’s behalf “a temporary assignment based on a relationship that has concluded.”

Clinton, meanwhile, has — like most other leading Democrats — been a sharp critic of Blackwater, and of the Bush administration’s use of private military contractors in general.

“Let's end outsourcing our government to companies like Blackwater and hold the contractor accountable,” she said on Sept. 30 in Oakland, Calif., according to the San Jose Mercury News.

Wolfson yesterday reiterated that stance.

“Sen. Clinton believes Blackwater must be held accountable for its actions and has laid out a detailed proposal to sharply reduce the number of contractors employed by the federal government by 500,000,” he said. “She has repeatedly stated her concern that such contractors are not as accountable as federal employees.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1007/6219.html

[ToeBot]

171. I don't see where you refute the connection between Burson-Marsteller and Uribe. nt

[Tellurian]

188. That is your attribution not mine..

what is the actual connection, then?

You do understand the difference between a parent company and a subsidiary?

[cgrindley]

155. I'm going to write to her and tell her to fire the asshole

everyone should do so... and you know me... I'm a passionate Hillary supporter, and a passionate Edwards critic, but he has a point on this issue.

[Tellurian]

162. Edwards has no point except a smear...see #160

[durrrty libby]

169. No he doesn't have a point except he is desperate

""Mark Penn did no work on the Blackwater account.

Burson has cut its ties to Blackwater and that was the right thing to do. Mark is and remains a valuable member of our team," said Phil Singer, a Clinton campaign spokesman. "Sen. Clinton believes Blackwater must be held accountable for its actions and has laid out a detailed proposal"











http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/10/05/blackwater_ties_fodder_for_pol.html?hpid=sec-politics

[durrrty libby]

168. ""Mark Penn did no work on the Blackwater account

Burson has cut its ties to Blackwater and that was the right thing to do. Mark is and remains a valuable member of our team," said Phil Singer, a Clinton campaign spokesman. "Sen. Clinton believes Blackwater must be held accountable for its actions and has laid out a detailed proposal"


http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/10/05/blackwater_ties_fodder_for_pol.html?hpid=sec-politics



The ignorance and stupidity in this thread is disgusting

And it is so very Sad to see what a loser Edwards has become

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

193. Burson cut ties to Blackwater AFTER the hearing. eom

[GreenTea]

170. Way to go John Edwards!!!! Cheers for the truth!!!

[nashville_brook]

175. when you lie with the dogs, you're gonna get fleas

[Blackhatjack]

176. HRC supporters please Continue Defending Mark Penn ... he is such a saint and worthy of your efforts

I am always amazed that people will defend a person who has spent substantial time and efforts to suppress the rights of others.

IF all we are going to look at is the 'skills' of a hired gun, why doesn't HRC just hire Rove? He is plenty skilled, and I am sure the HRC backers would be just fine with that.

[Gregorian]

179. Thank you John Edwards.

We're talking about America. Do we want to go down into the darkness or up into the light? We are the ones making that decision.

There is nothing good about Blackwater.

[fujiyama]

192. Amazing how Hillary defenders can't even agree that scum like Penn needs to go

Obama had Rezko and Edwards had a hedge fund tied to Katrina. The difference is they both cut their ties to them. Hillary is so arrogant though, I can't imagine her cutting her ties with Penn.

Blackwater is truly evil and anyone associated with them is fucking scum. It is at the heart of what is wrong with this administration. And she has someone that did PR for them on her team, that too in a prominent position?

Then again, I am no longer surprised by anything that is revealed about Hillary. I was just starting to not dislike her AS MUCH (or maybe I was just resigning myself that she'll be the nominee). I'll still vote for her, for the sake of the Supreme Court, but I seriously think this will be the worst set of choices the country has seen in a presidential election in over fifty years.

[saracat]

195. Isn't it? They defend the indefensible.None can defend he liberman/Kyl vote either

so they just attack another candidate insted.Pathetic.I will not vote for her.

[Inspired]

197. I know! It really is absurd, isn't it? n/t

[Tactical Progressive]

198. I guess John Edwards found out he's not on the short list for VP!

Hey, I'm not too happy that anybody from BlackWater has a relationship to Hillary, but if it somehow burnishes her national security image, then that's good. She has both being a Dem (in the eyes of the Republican-as-Daddy-figure worshipping mainstream media) and the natural inclination of people assuming a woman isn't as 'tough' as a man working against her, as far as credentials "in a time of war", as our pathetic media loves to say.

So it is probably a good thing that there is at least the appearance of someone with ground-force connections in her coterie of advisors.

[Divine Discontent]

200. nice storytelling!

<Tactical Progressive
198. I guess John Edwards found out he's not on the short list for VP!>


ho hum... and then Santa Clinton came down the chimney and gave all the boys and girls their very own miniature military play outfits! "Now run along children, and be sure to sign up for the military when you're of age!"


What? You're telling stories, why can't I?

Maybe John Edwards found out that Hillary Clinton was connected to Blackwater representation and got pissed? That sounds a bit more plausible to me. But, hey, go on with your storytelling.

[Tactical Progressive]

208. I'm just calling them like I see them.

You can tell all the stories that you like. Go for it.

Hey, how about 'Hillary is a Republican!'. It may be a silly story, suited to pre-schoolers, but alot of people around here just love it!

[w4rma]

211. Just because the Republicans used the Clintons to gain power in 1994, doesn't mean that the Clintons

are progressive. The Clintons have been working behind the scenes to take out progressive Democratic candidates in primaries and replace them with DLCers. They supported the war, wholehartedly, with Bill even traveling to Britain to convince Tony Blair to help Bush with his invasion.

[Divine Discontent]

215. I prefer republican-lite. And just callin it like I see it. :) n/t

[jsamuel]

212. related thread about Clinton's Karl Rove and his Union Busting

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1987870&mesg_id=1987870

[BrightKnight]

214. a desperate campaign trying to spin straw into gold

I guess when you campaign is sinking you have to reach for anything that you can find. I like Edwards but this is just a hollow cheap shot.