Carol Gotbaum death -- US Air appears not to have followed own policies

[pnwmom]

According to all the news reports, US Air gave away her seat on a connecting flight because she arrived at the gate with only 25 minutes -- instead of 30 -- to spare. However, this doesn't make sense, because she would have been considered checked-in on BOTH flights when she checked in for her originating flight. You don't have to check-in again at the 2nd gate, you just go and sit there.

And US Air does have a policy that seems to apply in this case -- they just didn't follow it.

http://www.usairways.com/awa/content/traveltools/checkin/airportcheckin/airportcheckintimes.aspx

"US Airways closes passenger and baggage check-in 30 minutes prior to departure for domestic travel and 60 minutes prior to departure for international travel."

BUT SHE WAS ALREADY CHECKED IN, so the following would seem to apply:

"If you are not checked in and waiting in the boarding area at least 15 minutes before the scheduled departure time, your reservation may be canceled and you will not be eligible for denied boarding compensation."

So -- you're supposed to be checked in -- which she was -- and waiting in the boarding area 15 minutes before the departure time. She got there 25 minutes before the departure time. So why had they already given away her seat?

[spotbird]

1. The whole thing stinks to high heaven

The Phoenix coroner refused to release the throat, brain and heart with the rest of the body to the family's pathologist. Then the video of the arrest as produced looks like it was shot from underwater with circa 1972 cameras, plus it is heavily edited.

The family can only do so much to determine the truth against a police state. They're screwed.

As for her flight, they oversold it and didn't want to compensate her. Another lie.

[pnwmom]

2. Very strange, especially with the new information that she was alive when

they found her -- alive but unconscious. Then the police gave her CPR and she vomited. So what happened? Did she choke on her vomit and die? With them right there?

[spotbird]

3. My guess

is they severely injured her during the arrest but the cops blew it off. She fell unconscious while in holding and when they found her it was too late to revive her.

And US Air lied to her, which made her nuts. It makes most people crazy when they're screwed like that, but most manage to contain themselves before the TSA kills them.

[Hepburn]

6. Good guess.....

...I agree with your analysis.

[malaise]

20. I'm on Carol's side on this one

It stinks.

[Evergreen Emerald]

120. what?

What is the basis of your accusations that security severly injured her?

[spotbird]

4. I read somewhere that another

passenger offered her his seat. He could only have done that if the plane hadn't entirely boarded by the time she arrived the counter.

[Ravy]

7. From reading..

I think that was for the second later flight... they denied her boarding of her first flight, and then placed her on standby for the later flight. When she didn't make it on the second (standby) flight, a passenger offered his seat, but the airline refused to let him give up his seat for her. After this, she was twice (and reasonably) upset, imho.

[spotbird]

8. That really sucks

they shouldn't have bumped her from the first fight, then they wouldn't help her when someone offered. I definitely would have lost my temper, but not to the point of arrest.

Didn't the earlier US Air statements say she was booked on the next flight?

[pnwmom]

12. I believe that was for the next flight. It's terrible that they didn't

let her accept it . Pretty heartless.

[Horse with no Name]

76. You don't give CPR to an unconscious person

You give CPR to a DEAD person, otherwise the damage you do can cause death. That could be exactly what happened. Someone jumped the gun and started CPR without properly assessing the situation.

[Pachamama]

101. ????????

Your not certified are you? Because obviously, based on what you wrote above in your post, you'll only administer CPR to a dead corpse, not a person who has a faint pulse but is unconscious and not breathing.... :eyes:

[Horse with no Name]

116. Sweetheart, I know exactly what I am talking about

YOU DO NOT GIVE COMPRESSIONS IF A PERSON HAS A PULSE. PERIOD.
Maybe you need to get recertified? A dead person isn't necessarily a corpse as you termed it. It is someone whose pulse has just ceased.
In your scenario, "a person who has a faint pulse but is unconscious and not breathing"...this person would be given rescue breathing, not CPR.

[Pachamama]

126. Please don't call me Sweetheart when you clearly don't mean it - And are you sure you know what you

are talking about? You suggest I get re-certified. Umm, I suggest you might need to get re-certified. And, I was actually recently re-certified in CPR along with my CERT, my husband's a Radiologist and I've actually had to perform CPR in an emergency situation twice in my lifetime.

If a person has a faint pulse (note my words faint)but is not breathing, you want to achieve two things: To clear their airway and help get them breathing and the chest compressions are to help circulate blood to vital organs and tissues, its not to get them breathing. CPR is the combo of both compressions and rescue breaths. Your suggesting that an unconcious person who is not breathing only be given rescue breathing and not CPR. This is not so - you you need the combination, particulary important for the blood flow through chest compressions to be helping circulate blood.

Had I been at the scene and found a woman like the woman who died in airport security custody, I would have performed CPR on her. Had she had vomit, I would have cleared her airpassage first and done abdominal thrusts and hit on her back and turned her on her side so she didn't choke on the vomit. If she had no pulse (or faint or it was uncertain)I would have done chest compressions and rescue breaths. If a defibrillator had been available, I would have used that if there was no heartbeat. There have been numerous incidence where a non-breathing person with little or no pulse and heartbeat is brought back with these procedures. And chest compression is vital in this process. I wouldn't assume this person dead until a coroner or doctor had declared it. If at some point there was signs of an improvement and a pulse, but breathing was a problem, then I would move to just rescue breathing.

PS: What is your definition of "dead"? Your definition is someone whose pulse has just ceased. I go with the clinical definition of where all vital functions have ceased in particular brain function and activity, I don't define it as the ceasing of breathing and cardiac function. Also, first responders are not authorized to declare someone as dead. Short of decapitation, rigor mortis or decomposition, one can't declare "death" and therefore one is to attempt to perform CPR (which is BOTH Breathing and Compression - as opposed to what you suggest, which is only rescue breathing).

Re-read your original post - you specifically state the following:

"You don't give CPR to an unconscious person. You give CPR to a DEAD person, otherwise the damage you do can cause death. That could be exactly what happened. Someone jumped the gun and started CPR without properly assessing the situation."

[Horse with no Name]

131. I've been a nurse for over 20 years AND a CPR instructor for 10 of those years

and not to be rude (but you were), a radiologist has very little need to do CPR...thus they generally aren't very good in a life or death situation--so throwing that out there is almost comical.
I'm glad you saved 2 lives with your 2 experiences. However, I won't begin to tell you how many lives I have saved over my career with MY experiences. I am certified BLS, ACLS, PALS, NRP, STABLE, as well as TNCC. I do believe I know what I am doing but thanks for your "concern".

[Pachamama]

132. Well good for you...I'll let my husband know that a nurse said that his training as one of the top

Radiologists in the Bay Area isn't very good in a life or death situation. He only helps save lifes by diagnosing cancer and catching it hopefully before it spreads. But I'll let him know thats where it ends. I beg to differ however, and if there's ever an emergency here with me, our kids or neighbors, I feel pretty safe and sure knowing he'd know how to perform CPR correctly on any of us. But now that I've been informed by an RN with all these certifications, I now know everything I've been taught and had even the opportunity to use twice in my life, once on a drowning victim and another time on a man in a restaurant who went into cardiac arrest until Paramedics arrived, that what I know and did is wrong according to you (even though it saved those people's lives). In one of the situations, I was the only person in a restaurant of atleast 40 people including staff that knew CPR. Thankfully my mistakes in performing CPR as you claim they are, worked.

I never meant to be rude as you suggest, but rather I responded to your original post in which you suggested that CPR was to be performed on someone who is dead. You never defined what you consider "dead" and I was confused ??????? by this statement and perplexed. Thus I asked. Then you called me Sweatheart sarcastically and tell me I need to be re-certified when I just was. Who was rude?

[Horse with no Name]

133. You were the one that dictated the rude tone

Did you know we only give epi to dead patients too?
Perhaps you don't understand the lingo used...if they don't have a heartbeat, they are dead. Doesn't matter if the heart has only ceased for 10 seconds--they are still considered dead.
I don't care what you tell your husband. I am sure he is a fine doctor and I never said otherwise, but I have been in too many code blue situations with physicians who weren't specifically trauma or ER physicians, and while most know the basics, most of them also cannot run a code without some assistance--most of the times from us unqualified RN's. That's the sad truth--deal with it or deny it. I could care less.
As I said, I am glad you were able to save two lives. But there isn't ONE CPR instructor that I know that will advise ANYONE to start jumping up and down on someone's chest if they have a heartbeat. Not one.
That kills people. There isn't a lay person out there that can assess what is a weak pulse without benefit of an AED. Some people because of other disease processes might have a weak pulse or they might have vagaled for some unknown reason. It does not benefit them at all to break their ribs and puncture their lungs. Really, it doesn't.

[Sukie1941]

5. I'm glad I wasn't there

because I would have raged against what was happening.....

I am so sick of this kind of stuff, and women seem to be dying at a fast rate these days.....

Bodies found in isolated wooded areas...seems it is several week now.

[lolly]

9. Well, they did it to me

I was flying from England to Philadelphia, then from Phil to New Hampshire--both on US Air.

The first flight was over an hour late, then I had to go through security again in PHil (because of customs) and that took over an hour.

Then I had to go clear across the terminal, and take a shuttle out to another terminal.

Still, I made it to the gate before my next flight took off.

Too bad, I was told. They gave away my seat--the plane was sitting right there, I had been on their previous flight, they had to know it was delayed, etc. etc.

I asked the ticket lady why, and she said "You weren't there, so we gave your seat to someone who was," as if it were MY fault I didn't make it in time.

[spotbird]

10. I loved regulation

government in my life was a good thing.

[OzarkDem]

69. No kidding, some business needs regulation

transportation and utilities.

[susanna]

87. Oh, spotbird...

I remember the late 70s, when planes were accountable to passengers. I was only 7 at that time (flying to gma's in Florida). I adored flying; the freedom, the perspective. Unfortunately, every flight I've taken since the mid-80s has raised my blood pressure to the point that I now do "road trips" and enjoy the living hell out of them.

Seriously - I can't bear to fly anymore, and it's because of all the stupidity involved. I had to fly last year to Vegas for a friend's wedding. I was so unhappy. I used to love the freedom that flying offered; now it's a chore for me. Isn't that odd how things change?

As for the OP, this situation is getting stinkier and stinkier. Not good. :-(

[dailykoff]

11. First they screw you, then they kill you.

Welcome to the friendly skies.

[Pavulon]

13. Me too, And since we did not throw physical fits

and run down the jet bridge we were just annoyed, not arrested.

Airlines screw up CONSTANTLY. You can't throw a screaming fit when they loose your luggage, give away your seat, or are less than enthusiastic about doing their jobs.

It sucks, I buy refundable tickets.

[Hangingon]

14. This has happened to me twice this summer.

I have seen it happen several more times. I think the gate crew usually has an oversold airplane - with standbys to take care of - and they have to clear the gate. The gate is needed for another flight pretty quickly and the departing flight needs to keep their block time. It happens with more airlines the US Air.

[pnwmom]

49. How early did you arrive for the connecting flight?

Because they usually wait till people have boarded the plane.

[Hangingon]

114. In both cases after the standbys were boarded.

Connecting flights - especially those on commuter airlines, even subsidiaries, don't have priority for taxi and come into remote gates. So, long trek to the connection. It happens. The airlines re booked on later flights and in once instance offered a voucher for meals.

[MasonJar]

15. Due to the tight schedule my daughter and I arrived after the Northwest

Airlines had closed the door on a flight to Australia. I demanded that they let us on the plane which was still clearly at the loading dock. It took a minor fit, but they let us on.

[Pavulon]

16. Nice of them

your demand had nothing to do with it...They could have just told you to go sit in the corner or talk to customer service.

Someone was nice to you. It happens on occasion.

When you travel you will miss connectors, that is reasonable. If you are late to the gate for the first hop, no one else to blame.

[Bobbieo]

17. Everyone is putting the blame for her death on the airlines and cops.

Go to the source: In her condition, she should never have been allowed to get on a plane in the first place without an escort. Her family knew she was an abusive alcoholic and not to be trusted. God damn - her husband should have been on that plane with her.

Like I have stated before - I speak from experience and there is no way in hell I would have let my daughter get on a airplane under those conditions - a month in rehab -without me, a member of the family or a bodyguard.

[Hangingon]

18. I absolutely agree.

Why was a woman in this condition traveling alone. Where was her husband? I don't want to be around people who make the sort of scene she made. Her death is unfortunate, but I would put the blame on family forst for allowing her to travel alone.

[Pavulon]

21. To clarify

you can make a scene. I have seen some amazingly harsh verbal exchanges. Loud and obscene, like embarrassed me, and I heard it all in the NG. That is perfectly legal.

You can not run down the the jet bridge or refuse to comply with instructions, like "please leave the ticket counter" without a problem.

[spotbird]

23. If the airline

had followed their policy, she'd be alive.

If the police had listened to her cries that she was sick, she would be alive. She isn't dead because she was alone, she is dead because of what was done to her. There is a reason the tapes released are of such poor quality. There is a reason the authorities have refused to release all of her remains. There are reasons the stories keep changing, and it isn't because she was alone.

She was not legally incompetent, she didn't deserve to die.

[Pavulon]

27. If

she had not decided to pitch a fit she would be fine. If the coroner had finished his work he would release remains.

She killed herself. Unless there is evidence of police violence against, her including choking her to death, she killed herself.

It is sad, but her choices led to this outcome.

[spotbird]

31. Why not release the

real tapes? The tapes of the 9/11 hijackers are clearer than the crap the police put out in this case. We're supposed to believe the technology has deteriorated since then? It is ludicrous to expect that what they've shown is all they have.

If the complete, real tapes and the independent autopsy show the death was accidental, I'll agree with the possibility. What we have now is a low rent cover-up, the nature of which alone raises suspicion.

[pnwmom]

52. And they also started the autopsy without waiting for the 2nd pathologist,

then, when he requested the body for his own autopsy, tried to withhold part of the remains from him (including the brain and the throat).

[KittyWampus]

37. It should be against airline policy to allow a suicidal alchoholic fly alone. People DO bear some

responsibility for their actions.

Since this woman was out of balance and unable to take responsibility for herself, it was up to her family to safeguard her.

[spotbird]

42. She is no longer

able to take responsibility for her actions. Had she been treated correctly she could complain.

You assume, without any support, that a companion would have been able to cause the authorities to contain her humanly.

[pnwmom]

84. But it was also the job of the airline and police to follow proper procedures.

And the question remains whether they did so.

[susanna]

88. OK, cryingshame, how do you enforce that?

After the obvious question, "do you have identification?", is the gate attendant supposed to ask "are you a suicidal alcoholic?" I'm not sure how you discern that fact. Seriously - how do you think that would work? I am confused. Most folks would not admit it if they were. So...

How?

[spotbird]

22. She was alone,

but for the over use of force it wouldn't have mattered. The airlines blew it, then lied about it. If they had done nothing wrong they'd have been honest.

The cops have lied so many times that it's hard to know what happened, but it's safe t say, again, if they had done nothing wrong they'd be honest.

She isn't dead because she traveled alone. She is dead because the professional authorities acted inappropriately.

[Pastiche423]

26. Where in any of the articles

does it state her family knew she was an abusive alcoholic?

Link, please.

[Bobbieo]

28. Check out The Arizona Republic on the net and YES the family knew she was an abusive drunk.

[Pastiche423]

29. I politely asked for a link

Either you have one or you don't.

[KittyWampus]

38. google Newsday. It's a NY paper covering this thoroughly. She was suicidal and a relapsed alchoholic

HER HUSBAND called the airport trying to find her and told the people she was an alchohol abuser.

[Pastiche423]

44. My request was not made to you

as you did not make the comment that she was an abusive alcoholic.

BTW, your comment did not answer my question either.

[pnwmom]

53. I think abusive alcoholic may just mean she abused alcohol --

sounds kind of redundant, since isn't that the definition of an alcoholic as opposed to a social drinker?

[Pastiche423]

92. That is not correct

in the clincal sense, nor in the grammatical sense. (Adjective before noun)

[pnwmom]

96. Well, her husband said she was "alcohol abusive" which tells me that

she abused alcohol, not other people.

[Pastiche423]

99. That is NOT what the other poster claimed

[pnwmom]

105. The other poster was wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/06/nyregion/06call.html

PHOENIX, Oct. 5 — Carol Gotbaum was already dead by the time her husband, Noah, made frantic telephone calls to the airport where she had been arrested to try to warn the authorities that she was “suicidal” and “alcohol abusive,” the Phoenix Police Department said on Friday.

SNIP

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

47. Link

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/06/nyregion/06gotbaum.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

[Pastiche423]

48. No where in that article does anyone, much less her family

call her an abusive alcoholic.

It does state, though:

Sometime later, Noah Gotbaum phoned the airport communications center in Phoenix, still trying to find out where his wife was and to let the authorities know that she was “alcohol abusive” and suicidal.

Which is an entirely different meaning.

She abused alcohol.

She was not abusive.

An example of an abusive alcoholic was my biological mother. She physically abused people when she was drinking alcohol.

Slandering a dead woman like Bobbieo did is cruel.

[spotbird]

34. Please explain

the laughable excuse for a tape of the arrest? Do you honestly believe that is the quality of surveillance in modern American airports is that much beneath the average 7/11 tape quality? If you trust the police on even that fact, we should end this discussion because we have quite different gullibility levels.

[pnwmom]

59. An abusive alcoholic is an active alcoholic, as I understand it.

As opposed to a recovering alcoholic.

It doesn't mean she was normally aggressive or abusive in that sense.

[LisaL]

32. On the other thread about it, there is a link as to what her

husband said about her when he called the airport.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

46. Here it rs

From post #49 by Gin
Gin Sat Oct-06-07 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. this part jumped out at me.....what an odd thing to say, and do

Sometime later, Noah Gotbaum phoned the airport communications center in Phoenix, still trying to find out where his wife was and to let the authorities know that she was “alcohol abusive” and suicidal.

“The police don’t really understand what they’re dealing with right now,” he said, according to transcripts of three calls he made.

Later, he added, “They’re playing with real fire right now.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/06/nyregion/06gotbaum.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

I don't think she should have gone alone. I hold her husband partially responsible.

He was absent from her with his work and absent when she needed him the most. Letting her go off alone, in her high risk state, is unconscionable to me.

[shanti]

66. exactly

especially when he basically admits that she's not in her right mind. what caring husband wouldn't accompany his wife? :shrug:

[pnwmom]

97. I also tend to feel he's partially responsible. On the other hand,

people in Al-Anon will tell you that there's nothing you can do to force treatment on an alcoholic. And supposedly she was determined to do this on her own. Legally, she was competent, so what could anyone actually do if she was determined to go by herself?

All this assumes she wasn't persuadable, of course. None of us can know that.

[KittyWampus]

35. Absoutely. Newsday in NY is covering this fairly balanced. A friend was supposed to escort her

at Phoenix. That person was delayed.

She did go and have at least one drink.

Why was a suicidal alchoholic allowed to fly alone?

Her husband's position allowed him to take time off.

[NashVegas]

41. There's a Reason We Call Them "Dysfunctional" Families

..

[Bluerthanblue]

83. how easy it is for others to judge-

those outside the situation, and after the fact.

Walk a mile in their shoes, then lose as they have lost, then condemn them for their losses.
This is how compassionate, human beings act?

God I hope not.

Blame is something this family doesn't need any more of.

Something this world is fixated on- it never is about "us" when guilt is to be assigned- It is always the "other persons" responsibility. When we blame the family for allowing her to travel by herself, then we can feel better. But why should it not have been safe for her to travel place to place with out an escort? The problem came when she was denied passage on her flight. She dealt with that poorly, but not so poorly as to have caused her to be arrested. It wasn't until the SECOND flight which had become her "hope" was dismissed that she lost it.-

And for that she is wrestled to the ground, handcuffed and locked in a room, supposedly with her hands chained to an eye hook behind her.

On the other hand, we have a person who intentionally murdered an Iraqi during a new years drunken binge, and they not only got a flight home- they are walking around free.

But that was in a war zone- Mrs. Gotbaum had her melt down in an american airport- Everyone knows they are sacred ground-
Mega
:sarcasm:

this is so sad- on so many levels

[NashVegas]

134. Lady, I Have

Walked in those shoes.

And you know, it's a funny thing. I didn't pass any judgments in my above post, just pointed out this was a messed up family. Didn't blame anyone in particular, not the woman, not her hubby, just pointed out a FACT from my own observations: functional (what some people like to call, "good") families contain people who are totally supportive of those they are connected to. If her her family was supportive, one of its members would have been with her. That's not blaming anyone, it's just stating a likely fact.

[pnwmom]

54. She was originally supposed to be flying non-stop, and met on the other end.

It sounds like she changed her flight at the last minute to this connecting one. Maybe it was too late for him to make the arrangements, who knows.

And none of this would absolve the cops or the airlines of responsibility, IF they didn't follow their own procedures in dealing with this woman.

[pnwmom]

51. It's true, they shouldn't have sent her alone.

But the cops and airlines are also responsible if they ignored the calls from the husband (that were tape recorded) and didn't follow their own policies.

[Mutineer]

70. Her family should assume at least partial blame for this

they had money, they obviously had the means to find SOMEONE, anyone, to fly with her. Yet, knowing she was an alcoholic, knowing she was suicidal, they put her on a plane alone. I can't get past that.

[spotbird]

77. She drove alone

in cars prior to her death. They didn't see the need for a body guard. People don't think their loved ones will be killed in police if they misbehave, that clearly should change.

[pnwmom]

85. She was a competent adult, in the eyes of the law, and she refused help.

There really is nothing a family can do in this kind of situation. She was sober when she left and assured them she'd be fine.

People in Al-Anon deal with this kind of situation all the time. You can't help someone who won't accept the help.

[AnotherDreamWeaver]

19. excited delirium

From: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/1005airportdeath1005cuffs.html
I found this information:
A University of Toronto study published in 1998 found that restraint "may contribute to the death of people in states of excited delirium." In the study, all 21 cases of unexpected death that were examined were associated with restraint. Eighteen people were lying facedown, and three were subjected to neck pressure.

So I wonder, was "excited delirium" going to be listed as cause of death?

[Bobbieo]

24. I cannot believe the mind set of most of the posters on this. issue.

The woman was known to be a suicidal, abusive drunk who never should have been on the plane- all by herself- in the first place. The family, especially her husband never should allowed her to get on the plane without an escort. He should have gotten a baby sitter for the kids and been with her, himself. No GD excuses!!!

How in the hell could the airline or the cops know of her mental history? They acted accordingly - maybe the cops were too gung ho but they had no idea of what they were dealing with.

[Bobbieo]

25. Unfortunately, she is dead because she was allowed to travel alone. Bet she

she was drinking all the way cross country!!!!

[slampoet]

30. You really seem to believe anything you read,

sad you don't understand cover stories, blame the victim, chutzpah, or the institutional racism of the Southwest.

It is almost as if you were born .......yesterday.

[Bobbieo]

36. No slampost I was born way the hell ahead of you. I happen to be the mother

of not one but two abusive addicts and I blame myself every day for their addictions. I have paid for my sins in many, many ways.

Oh yes, I understand cover stories as I am a retired journalist. Jesus Christ, man! I know all about racism I am part Native American and live in Yuma,AZ

[spotbird]

43. With your level of

compassion, that's just baffling news.

On edit:

With all those credentials, why do you accept those fudged videos? Why is it only the family you doubt, when the authorities haven't even made a respectable effort at their presentation?

[spotbird]

33. Interesting perspective

If you ever become ill in a public place I hope you are not treated similarly.

[Bobbieo]

39. I'm 84 years old and my chances of getting ill in a public place are excellent.

I just don't really want to drop dead in Wal-Mart - But what ever!

[spotbird]

40. Sounds like

you should definitely avoid the Phoenix airport.

[Bobbieo]

45. I'm as deaf as GD door post so I don;'t listen to talk radio , comprehend videos

don't have cable TV and have no intention of ever getting on another airplane. Yes, I do have compassion for the family. The are going to blame themselves the rest of their lives for not being on that plane with her when she needed them. BTW - I lost my daughter to alcoholic cirrhosis.

[spotbird]

50. I'm very sorry for your loss

Although the family may feel guilt, it is not their fault that trusted authorities abused their power.

I have a dear friend who lost a daughter in an accident. My friend has never forgiven herself despite the fact that she had no responsibility for what happened. If Mrs. Gotbaum had stayed home she would still be alive today, that fact does not absolve those directly responsible for her death.

[pnwmom]

58. I'm sure they are blaming themselves.

And the poor children are going to have to live with the news reports that the reason their mother gave for changing to a connecting flight (instead of nonstop) was that the later flight would allow her to bring them to school in the morning.

[pnwmom]

57. Because of your age, I think people would handle you more gently

than this woman. Anyway, I would hope so.

But she should have been handled carefully, too, since the airline had been informed by the husband (he called them several times while this was all going on) that she was suicidal.

[pnwmom]

56. The airline/police may share responsibility.

The airline SHOULD have forwarded the information from the husband about her mental status to the airport police. Did they?
The police should have treated her as a potential suicide. Did they? Clearly not.
The police should not have physically abused her -- we don't know about this yet.

We do know that the autopsy was conducted without waiting for the 2nd pathologist to show up. When he asked for the body to conduct his own autopsy, they tried to withhold the brain and the throat. Why?

[pnwmom]

55. How could they know her history? They could have listened to the husband.

There are recorded tapes of him calling the airport, explaining the danger she was in (that she was suicidal), and begging for them to forward this information to the police. He made at least 3 phone calls like that. It isn't clear what, if anything, they did in response to these calls.

[RamboLiberal]

60. Police: Husband called after NY woman died at Phoenix airport

The husband of the New York public advocate's stepdaughter-in-law made his first call to warn airport authorities that his wife was suicidal 70 minutes after she was pronounced dead while in police custody, according to police.

Phoenix police on Thursday released transcripts of Noah Gotbaum's phone calls inquiring about the welfare of his wife, Carol Anne Gotbaum. They were placed on the same afternoon she was arrested and later found dead in a holding room at Sky Harbor International Airport.

But a police review of call logs showed Noah Gotbaum's earliest call to Sky Harbor on Sept. 28 came at 4:39 p.m., a little more than an hour after she died, police said Friday.

The department issued a statement that said police "had no information about her personal issues prior to her arrest and death."

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--airportdeath1006oct06,0,2142278.story

[pnwmom]

62. Interesting. It doesn't make much sense, though.

"He called emergency dispatchers before learning of his wife's death to say she was in a deep depression and suicidal, according to the police report.

"But police said Friday in a statement that Carol Gotbaum "died prior to any call being made by Mr. Noah Gotbaum to the Airport Communications Center and prior to the Phoenix Police Department Airport officers having any information about her."


So does that mean that he talked to them three times AFTER she was dead, begging them to take care of her -- and they didn't tell him she was already dead?

[LisaL]

65. It could be that whoever he talked to had no idea she was dead.

Not everybody in the airport would have known of her death right away, i presume.

[pnwmom]

78. That might make sense if there was only one call.

But if the person he first talked to had passed on his message, then that person would have been told she was already dead -- or should have been told. And then why didn't they immediately call him? I'm sure he gave them his number -- they would be trained to ask for it. But otherwise, when he called back the second time, why didn't they tell him then?

One more thing that smells fishy in this case.

[mvccd1000]

107. How would they know that?

Why would the airport (or even the airline) general information line know of something that happened in a TSA or police holding area an hour before? Do you think the police should immediately make a general announcement that someone just died, or do you think they might have spent a little bit of time figuring out what happened? Obviously, the system did not work. Presumably the cops were trying to figure out why, since 99.00% of the other people they arrest don't end up dead.

Have you flown through Sky Harbor? Do you realize how big it is, how many people work there, and how many different departments there must be there? It's not like a small town airport - it's one of the largest and busiest in the country.

I don't see where the lack of communication between two departments is a sing of any conspiracy. (Although if there ever IS a real crisis, I would hope they get that worked out.)

[spotbird]

136. Since what

the authorities have represented as the first call, was not in fact the husband's first call, but a later one, it was possible for the person who he spoke with to forward his concerns to the proper person. There is a reason that the authorities lied about even the number of phone calls, that reason is known as a cover-up.

Why have phones if the person who takes the calls does nothing in response? It would be better to simply not accept any incoming calls than to pretend it is an avenue for communication.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

68. On my local NY newscast this AM, it was scrolled that he called more than 1 hr. after she died.

Here is an article from a Phoenix paper

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/1006airportdeath1006.html

Airport got call long after wife died

Casey Newton and Jahna Berry
The Arizona Republic
Oct. 6, 2007 12:00 AM
Noah Gotbaum made his first call to warn airport authorities that his wife was suicidal 70 minutes after she was pronounced dead, Phoenix police said Friday night.

Police on Thursday released transcripts of Gotbaum's phone calls inquiring about the welfare of his wife, Carol, that were placed on the same afternoon she was arrested and later found dead in a holding room. The time of the calls was not available Thursday.

A police review Friday of call logs showed that Noah's earliest call to Sky Harbor International Airport on Sept. 28 came at 4:39 p.m., a little more than an hour after his wife died, police said.

continued at above link

[pnwmom]

98. Isn't it odd that he made at least 3 calls to them, supposedly after her death,

and no one told him that she had already died? What were they waiting for?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

108. From yesterday's NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/06/nyregion/06call.html?_r=1&oref=login

In his first call to the airport, Mr. Gotbaum told an operator that a friend of his, David Watson, who lived in the area, was on his way to the airport.

“I’m actually quite unhappy that I have not heard back, because the police don’t really understand what they’re dealing with right now and no one has called me, but he does,” Mr. Gotbaum told an operator.

During a later call, an operator put Mr. Gotbaum on hold and got on the phone with Lt. Rick Gehlbach. When the operator asked Lieutenant Gehlbach if he wanted to speak with Mr. Gotbaum, he responded: “I want somebody who’s professional to be talking to him. Not just blow it to him over the phone, because I don’t know how he’ll react.”

At one point between Mr. Gotbaum’s second and third calls, the transcripts indicate, the operator took a break to answer a question from a colleague about Chinese food they were ordering for dinner.

When Mr. Gotbaum called back — after two US Airways representatives at a call center in Winston-Salem, N.C., had contacted Phoenix on his behalf — the operator again put him on hold. Then the operator spoke with another sergeant, who said, “I need to get a phone number because we need to make, uh, we can’t tell him what’s going on right now.”

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

109. I just thought of something. In our society and the police have cameras everywhere,

it would be interesting if they had a camera in the holding cell.

[LisaL]

112. No. Apparently it against the rules to have a camera in a

holding cell.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

113. It doesn't seem against the law in Florida in this high profile case

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/08/gns_nowak_video_070813/

(ironically it was an airport too)

Video of ex-astronaut in holding cell released

By Kimberly C. Moore - Florida Today
Posted : Thursday Aug 16, 2007 19:47:14 EDT

ORLANDO — A desperate, sometimes tearful Navy Capt. Lisa Nowak reminded police officers that she had a right to an attorney and that she was not planning to hurt a love rival as she was detained in a holding cell after allegedly attacking the rival.

The statements can be heard in a video released Friday by the State Attorney’s Office.
Multimedia

Video of Nowak

A closed circuit camera concealed in the former astronaut’s holding cell at Orlando International Airport’s police station shot the three-hour video. She did not seem to be aware she was being recorded after she was arrested Feb. 5 for allegedly attacking Air Force Capt. Colleen Shipman. Both women were involved with former Astronaut Bill Oefelein.

[RamboLiberal]

61. More Info

Husband had frantically called this couple who lived in Phoenix.

By the time David and Christine Watson arrived at Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport Gotbaum was dead after being handcuffed and chained to a cement bench in an airport holding cell Sept. 28.

"I think we're all wondering why she was flying alone," David Watson told the Daily News yesterday. "But she shouldn't have died."

Gotbaum was adamant about flying solo to Cottonwood de Tucson, a $42,000-a-month alcohol treatment program, other friends said.

She said she "didn't need a baby-sitter" a colleague said. Gotbaum had been referred to Cottonwood by David Watson, who said the program has kept him sober for 19 years.

Gotbaum's husband, Noah, agreed to let her fly alone, after the treatment center assured him a driver would be waiting at the Tucson airport to drive her to the clinic.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/10/06/2007-10-06_frantic_phone_call_from_carol_gotbaums_h.html

Noah Gotbaum couldn't accompany his depressed, alcoholic wife on her flight to an Arizona rehab facility last week because he had to watch their three kids, family matriarch Betsy Gotbaum said, calling her daughter-in-law's airport death a "perfect storm" of bad circumstances.

"He had to stay with the children. They could not be left alone with the mother going away for a month," Betsy Gotbaum, New York City's public advocate, said.

"We could never imagine that something like this would happen."

But the family was concerned enough to have Noah drive Carol Anne Gotbaum to Kennedy Airport the morning she left for the Cottonwood rehab facility in Tucson, Ariz.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10062007/news/nationalnews/perfect_storm_hit_gotbaum_kin.htm

[LisaL]

64. One article says she insisted on going alone, and the

other says the husband couldn't go with her because he had to take care of the children. I guess it could be she went alone for both of these reasons combined.
By the way, if she had to/wanted to fly alone, I think she should have stuck with a direct flight.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

72. It is patently ridiculous that he couldn't find anyone to stay with the children. He could

even have hired a nanny considering he had the resources. I think that his family is going to try to make this man, who left this woman, in a strange land, alone with three kids for the majority of the time, look like an angel.

[pnwmom]

79. But that issue doesn't affect anyone other than their family.

The issue of whether the airline and the police followed proper procedure is something that could affect any future traveler in the airport. So that bears serious investigation -- whether or not the family was stupid to let her travel alone.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

90. I agree with you 100% in regard to police and the airline. eom

[spotbird]

80. If only he'd known

the police would kill her if she stepped out of line on the way! Also assuming he could have stopped the arrest when she went out of control. He must be some powerful guy, almost god-like!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

89. Did you read this from the NY Times?

Sometime later, Noah Gotbaum phoned the airport communications center in Phoenix, still trying to find out where his wife was and to let the authorities know that she was “alcohol abusive” and suicidal.

“The police don’t really understand what they’re dealing with right now,” he said, according to transcripts of three calls he made.

Later, he added, “They’re playing with real fire right now.”

Although the facts haven't come out yet, I believe the police are definitely a contributor to her death. Yet knowing how high risk Carol was, Noah should have gone with her or had someone accompany her.

[spotbird]

118. But traveling alone

did not kill her, the police did.

There is no way to know whether a companion would have stopped this, none.

[DearAbby]

104. Why are people blaming the family

for what happened here? She was an adult. You can not force people to reform, you also can not babysit either. You would then be enabling the behavior.

[Hangingon]

115. You are correct.

Another question about her traveling alone is what if she had lost control in the aircraft.

[shanti]

63. the family is turning over every stone

US Air messed with the WROOOOONG people!

[spotbird]

67. We'll see

There isn't much hope aat this point.

[Mutineer]

71. Perhaps they might want to begin by looking at their complicity in this

you don't put a suicidal alcoholic on their way to rehab on a flight by themselves. And if you absolutely have to, and given their money, they had the means NOT to, then it's a simple matter to call the airlines and let them know the 411 on the person. They chose to do none of that. Why? I think their own guilt is partially motivating their "let's blame the police for everything" mentality. They need to assume some responsibility as well for letting her go alone.

[spotbird]

75. So suicidal alcoholic

rarely fly? Or they only fly with company? It must be so, or it would seem the fatality rate would be enormous if they were all doomed when they fly alone.

[pnwmom]

81. I'm sure they're full of regret about that. But all of us should be concerned

that airlines and police follow proper procedure in cases like this, because you never know when someone you know or love could have a medical emergency. For example, police have tasered innocent people who have been behaving strangely due to crashing blood sugar levels.

I think some people are judging this woman harshly because of her alcoholism, and some people are judging her family harshly because they let her fly unattended. But none of that is really our business. What is our business is to make sure that "authorities" follow safe and proper procedure. And that is a matter for serious investigation in this case.

[shanti]

135. that may be true

but it doesn't let US Air and airport security off the hook!

[havocmom]

73. Am I the only one who noticed how much like a younger Nancy Pelosi she looked?

Misplaced winger rage on the woman? Message to someone? Yeah, I know...'put yer tin hat on, havocmom'

Just the same, the Speaker sure seemed meek the past week.

[dailykoff]

74. So far they've ripped her off, killed her, mutilated her body,

and defamed her. Let's wait and see what else the authorities do before passing judgment.

:sarcasm:

[spotbird]

82. No doubt this is the high point. nt

[dailykoff]

86. Wait until the trial, if there is one.

No doubt the'll produce witnesses saying she was acting just like Regan in the Exorcist.

[Bluerthanblue]

91. she did make the comment that she hated american cops-

and i can understand why she felt that way-

At least about the ones she was dealing with her last day alive.

[dailykoff]

93. Hadn't heard that.

No wonder they whacked her.

[lligrd]

94. In The Video Clip I Saw She Doesn't Appear To Be Running

Around out of control. Nor does it appear as if she fought the police. And she does appear to be walking with the officers. I don't understand how anyone can think it is ok that a person who was no threat to anyone ends up dead because she was upset at the inhumane treatment she received by an airline. She did nothing to get arrested for at all let alone killed.

http://www.nypost.com/video/?vxSiteId=0db7b365-a288-4708-857b-8bdb545cbd0f&vxChannel=NY+Post&vxClipId=1458_169260&vxBitrate=300

[pnwmom]

95. It looked like she was bowing to them, over and over again.

Like someone might do if they were very frustrated, or in pain, or were begging for something. But no, she wasn't running around like a crazy person.

[geek_sabre]

110. "bowing?"

She was screaming at the top of her lungs.

[spotbird]

130. There is a tape with audio?

I haven't seen it.

[LisaL]

100. Killed? What evidence is there that she was killed?

I've seen nothing so far.

[lligrd]

102. Whatever

I guess you would be ok with this happening to one of your family members. I wouldn't. And I am not ok with it happening to anyone else either.

[LisaL]

103. There you go now with "this happening." What did she die of?

What was "this" that happened to her? Can you even tell right now?

[lligrd]

106. What I Can Tell Is That It Is Extremely Doubtful That

she would be dead if she hadn't been arrested. And she shouldn't have been.

[LisaL]

111. Oh give me a break.

The woman should have been left alone, and not taken into custody, despite her conduct? Right.

[spotbird]

119. She was screaming that

she was sick. Medical care seems to be the least they could do. What they did do resulted in her death.

Would some of the blame the victim people here please explain why they find those preposterous, poor quality, edited, tapes released by the police convincing?

Also, the police spokesman said that they are prohibited by "policy" from recording the holding cell. That translates to, "we have prohibited ourselves" from tape recording the holding cell. Why would they adopt such a policy? Certainly not to benefit the prisoner, someone shackled to a bench doesn't need privacy, only protection.

[Tatiana]

117. This whole story stinks to high heaven.

Nothing passes the smell test here.

Carol was obviously in a state of distress. Statements from people in the airport who observed her confirm this. Why wouldn't security/TSA/police personnel bring in an EMT or medical professional right away to assess whether she was having a health crisis? Sometimes people who have diabetic episodes do strange things or lash out. I know I made the mistake of thinking that an employee was behaving violently once and only when the ambulance arrived and the worker was checked out by the medical personnel was it discovered his behavior was due to his diabetic condition. If we'd called the police first, who knows what would have happened to the poor guy?

The airline, airport security and the police should all be subject to a thorough investigation. Their actions certainly, at the very least, contributed to Carol's death. Additionally, I think the husband shares blame in this tragedy as well and they should investigate his part in the timeline leading up to Carol's tragic death. He calls several times AFTER she has already died? This could be coincidence, but I also find that timing strange. Knowing that she was in the state he described during his several phone calls to ascertain Carol's whereabouts, how in G-d's name could he not have made sure that she had someone with her during this trip? Even if she was on a direct flight, who's to say she wouldn't have caused problems during the flight on the airplane? Were the flight attendants (among their numerous other responsibilities) supposed to watch her as well? There should have been someone actually sitting next to her on her FLIGHT(S). The husband strikes me as either very uncaring and concerned more with his career than family (not uncommon in American society today) or could he have known something exactly like this would occur? Was he trying to get rid of her?

I don't want to accuse anyone of anything unfairly, but there are too many unanswered questions. There is a dead woman and three kids who no longer have their mother. I hope they get to the bottom of this and punish whomever is responsible.

[spotbird]

121. He didn't know

that this would happen. She was out and about in the world, functioning. When he realized she'd cracked he tried to intervene. She wasn't in that condition when she left or even when he spoke to her upon her arrival in Phoenix. The guy wasn't a clairvoyant. It's been reported she hadn't had a drink for nine days prior to leaving. He must have believed she was stable enough to make the trip alone. Reports are that she believed it to. If the airline had treated her decently she would have made it. Her husband didn't ignore her screams that she was sick, tackle her to the ground, shackle her to a bench while she was screaming hysterically and leave her to die alone. He is not responsible that others did this to her.

[dailykoff]

122. And that's if their suicide story holds water.

So far I don't see how it could. It seems pretty clear to me that some thug gave her the what-for to shut her up, and what do you know, it worked.

[LisaL]

123. Yet when he called the airport, he said something to the

effect that she was suicidal, alcohol abusive, and the police did not understand what they were dealing with. I fail to see how you can argue he didn't know given what he himself apparently told the airport.

[dailykoff]

124. That was AFTER he got an alarming call from his wife.

As I've heard it, she dropped her cell phone in the middle of the call, and by the time her husband managed to reach anyone in Phoenix, she was already dead. Not that anyone bothered to tell him, and he called three times.

[LisaL]

125. I don't care when that was. If someone is going to argue her

husband didn't know of her problems, if he tells others his wife is suicidal, alcohol abusive, and the police don't understand what they are dealing with, I would say in my opinion, the husband had a clue that his wife had problems.

[spotbird]

129. Of coarse he

knew she had problems, she was on her way to rehab. It doesn't make what they did to her his fault.

Why do you think the police didn't release a real tape of the incident?

[spotbird]

127. Before she left he didn't

know she'd crack. Perhaps because she'd stopped drinking for over a week, she seemed stable enough to travel, or presumably he would not have taken the risk. She wasn't incompetent.

It doesn't seem to be about money, they were spending a fortune on treatment.

He did not ignore her screams that she was sick, he and other men did not tackle her to the ground, force painfully tight handcuffs on her wrists, shackle her to a bench then leave her alone to die. It was not foreseeable that the police would do this to her, he can't be blamed.

Why does anyone accept the blurry, distant, selectively edited tape provided by the police as the least bit convincing of anything but an effort to hide something?

[LisaL]

128. Alcohol is served on the plane. There are also plenty of bars

at the airport. Since she is an adult, I actually don't think the husband is to blame, but maybe there should have been an inkling something could go wrong with this woman in the airport, considering alcohol is readily available.