Please DU this poll -

[wicket]

Poll link

Do you approve of the practice of a man asking a woman's father for permission to marry?

Yes, I think a man should ask permission.
49.0%
It depends on the couple.
30.9%
No, I don't think a man should ask permission.
20.1%
Total votes: 1036

EDIT - For those wondering, the poll accomanpies this article.

[MethuenProgressive]

1. Why?

Wouldn't it be more worthwhile to see what the real results are?

[wicket]

3. So when DUers vote in polls those aren't "real" results?

:shrug:

[MethuenProgressive]

7. Exactly.

The real result would be one without recruited voters brought in to sway results 'your way'.

[wicket]

9. I asked people to vote, they can vote however they want

I stated my opinion in the thread but people can vote however they want. :shrug:

[wicket]

40. Here's a thread that you may want to nanny in:

CBS on line poll "Do you want Al Gore run for President in 08"

:sarcasm:

[ThomWV]

2. I did, and, may he rest in peace, he gave it.

Its called respect.

[wicket]

4. Respect to the woman?

Hardly. I don't need my dad's permission to do anything, and I'm certainly not a gift to be "given away".

[Bentcorner]

6. Respect for what? A antiquated concept the treats women as property?

[TahitiNut]

5. Both times I was married, I sought the approval ('blessing'?) of both parents upon engagement.

Both marriages failed. Maybe there's a lesson in there ... but I'm dubious.

I regard such behavior on the part of a suitor as civil and respectful of the familial relationships - NOT a chattel thing at all. Making a marriage work is tough enough with the support of both sets of parents but can begin with a strike against it where parental feelings are not respected at the outset, whether one agrees politically or not.

FWIW, I regard such behavior on the part of the woman to be appropriate as well. The timing of seeking such a 'blessing' from the guy's parents depends on the ritual followed for proposal/acceptance. Some people, even 'liberated' women, still subscribe to the male offering an engagement ring - sometimes costing as much as three months of salary or more. (I think it's bizarre that many 'liberated' women are unwilling to give up this particular self-serving ritual ... but regard a dowry as unthinkable.)

[Wickerman]

8. ah, but the legacy of a diamond

*priceless*

Well-stated post.

[wicket]

10. Great pic

Really says it all.

[iverglas]

23. what I think is a wee bit bizarre ...

(I think it's bizarre that many 'liberated' women are unwilling to give up this particular self-serving ritual ... but regard a dowry as unthinkable.)

is that you would refer to these women, or any others, as " 'liberated' ", with or without the quotation marks.

I'm not liberated -- I live in a society where women are oppressed in many and various ways, so how the hell could I be liberated?

I have no interest in marriage itself, let alone an engagement ring. But I'm still no more nor less liberated than anyone else.

Perhaps some women whom you regard as otherwise progressive in their attitudes and actions in relation to women's role and place in society want expensive engagement rings. Perhaps greed is the explanation, or status-seeking, or insecurity, or any number of things. Maybe they just like shiny objects. I suspect a combination of those factors in most cases, expecially status-seeking. In a world where women's suitors give them expensive shiny objects, a woman who doesn't have one loses status.

Of course, if women were actually liberated, this wouldn't be the case ...

[TahitiNut]

25. "... a woman who doesn't have one loses status."

Just imagine the shame of not being accompanied by a big dowry, then! The shame! The shame!

:dunce:

(Let's ignore the possibility that such 'status' is in the eyes other women.)


I just think it's bizarre WHICH traditions get thrown to the curb and which don't. The white virginal dress? Kept. Ask the father's "permission"? Discard. Engagement ring? Kept. Dowry? Discard.

But then what does any guy get to say? After all, that's 95% up to each woman involved, right?

I just did what I was told to do. :shrug:

:rofl:

[iverglas]

26. "(Let's ignore the possibility that such 'status' is in the eyes other women.)"

Such status is very definitely in the eyes of other women; I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

That doesn't affect the fact that loss of status can have seriously unpleasant effects on one's life.

And of course the loss of status is in the eyes of the woman herself, women not being liberated, and most of us having internalized the standards by which our value is measured in society to some greater or lesser extent.


I just think it's bizarre WHICH traditions get thrown to the curb and which don't. The white virginal dress? Kept. Ask the father's "permission"? Discard. Engagement ring? Kept. Dowry? Discard.

Hmm. That must be one of those broad brushes. ;)

Did women discard the practice of dowry, or did the dowry-payers do it?

The rituals associated with marriage are taught to girls virtually from birth, and the dependance of their value -- in the eyes of society as a whole, their family, their friends, their church, their social circles -- on their marriageworthiness, and ultimately marriage, is a fact of life for women. It is hardly surprising that they measure their own value by that standard, and cling to the public manifestations that they have measured up to it.


But then what does any guy get to say? After all, that's 95% up to each woman involved, right?

This bit I never get, even when it's said facetiously. If you believe that herding other adults through doorways is demeaning to them, don't do it. Ditto if you believe that the strength of your commitment to your intimate partner does not need to be proved by impoverishing yourself!

What I don't understand is someone who complains about a phenomenon on principle, and then participates in it as if s/he has no choice. So that makes two of us, I guess!

[TahitiNut]

27. I blame Disney.

I had nothing to do with it. I gave engagement rings with family diamonds ... my grandmother's then my mother's. Because it was "expected" and I wasn't interested in conflict at that point.

Today? If the unthinkable should happen ... no rings. At this point in my life, I'm just not interested in the "go along to get along" crap. If there'd be a ceremony, it'd be outdoors, small, simple, and casual - emphasis on EQUALS. (Screw the pomp.)

I eschew jewelry. Period. I don't wear any. Wouldn't. I think it's stupid. I would never have a tattoo, piercing, or wear jewelry. I don't use scents, either. I adhere to clean and undecorated.

YMMV. :shrug:

[iverglas]

28. I have jewelry

Buckets of it. Shiny objects that I've bought for a buck or two at buck or two stores. Shiny objects that were my grandmothers' -- not the diamonds, because I have no interest in them and my mum can pass them down to my nieces; the shiny paste ones are what I like. I have strings of plastic beads in many colours jamming up my bathroom drawers.

Really never wear an item of it. Try to remember to wear the amber when I visit my family, since they gave it to me for my 50th, me not wanting to be involved with gold, and amber being "golden".

Can't wear the earrings for more than an hour because I've got a weird (read: deformed) earlobe that makes the clips hurt. I'd have had to have a triple piercing about 2 decades before it became fashionable, had I regarded the practice as anything but barbaric and emblematic of women's status as chattel -- which it was then. Girl babies with pierced ears; eeewwwww.

I like the rings I had as a kid, that my parents and grandparents gave me, and the other bits and bobs from that era. I occasionally buy something shiny at a craft fair to wear around my neck -- not much different from buying something shiny to burn a candle in or hang on the wall, I can just admire it when I'm not in the same room if I wear it. Which I do, a couple of times a year. My problem is I never go anywhere, and I sure can't type with hand jewelery on. But c'mon; a ring on the finger isn't really in the same class as a ring drilled through the nose or into the skin around the bicep!

I would never object to being given a family heirloom as an "engagement ring" (and would return it if the relationship ever terminated, be it in 2 days or 50 years). Rituals can sometimes be personal, even if they resemble public rituals. I'd wear it as a connection to a family's history and the people in the family, not a status symbol, of course. ;)


At this point in my life, I'm just not interested in the "go along to get along" crap.

Good show.

[TahitiNut]

32. Well, if that's all you could get ...

... for Manhattan Island, I guess that's it. :silly: :dunce:

:rofl:

Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

:rofl:

Neither one of 'em returned anything.
Fool me once, shame on her. Fool me twice, shame on me. Ain't gonna get fooled agin. :dunce:

[Phillycat]

11. I don't think there's anything wrong with this.

My husband asked my mom, since I don't have a dad, and it was nice. :)

On edit: And I didn't get a diamond engagement ring, because I said in no uncertain terms I wouldn't wear one, because of conflict diamonds. My stone is a pink sapphire.

[wicket]

17. "My stone is a pink sapphire."

Sounds gorgeous. My friend who got married earlier this summer helped pick out an antique sapphire ring for engagement. So lovely.

[BoneDaddy]

12. To what end?

If this works for the couple fine, if it doesn't don't do it.

[NYVet]

13. I asked my girlfriend's father for permission

and he told me that it was up to her.















FWIW, he also told me that if I pissed her off too much, he would be by to help her hide my body after she killed me.

[wicket]

14. Ha ha

Your father in law sounds like a real character ;)

[NYVet]

18. Not my father in law yet.

We are putting away the money to pay for everything ourselves, because her parents are both in their 60's and retired.




I am curious about one thing though. Should I be scared that he wants to take me hunting?
He says he has a brown jacket that would fit me perfectly. :yoiks:

[wicket]

19. As a lifelong hunter I'd say don't be scared- be honored! :)

It'll be fun - but if hunting isn't your thing maybe you could find something else to do with him to bond?

[NYVet]

21. The comment about wearing a brown jacket during hunting season was supposed to be a joke.

In fact, I think that meat that is taken from the wild tastes better than from the supermarket.

[wicket]

22. Yeah definitely sounds like a joke

;)

[NYVet]

24. I have already gotten the required hunting permits and done a complete

PMCS of the Remmington 30-.06 I am planning on using. This weekend I am going to zero the scope at 300 meters.

[wicket]

29. Has the price of ammo skyrocketed in your area?

My dad bought a box of ammo, he still had the box from last year & it still had the price tag on it. Same store and everything - but a short year later the price has doubled!!! What is going on?

[rug]

15. Why doesn't the woman ask the mother?

[Book Lover]

16. This is sickening

And if he says no, then what? You run away and don't ask the woman you love if she wants to marry you? Well, then again, I'm not sure who'd *want* to marry such a man in the first place.

[wicket]

33. "I'm not sure who'd *want* to marry such a man in the first place."

Not me. My dad would laugh at anyone who tried to pull that. Yuck!

[iverglas]

20. "The father must be master in his own house"

For those who have missed my many previous citations of this long-term study of the firm entrenchment and rise of adherence to patriarchy in the US (do read the whole thing, as excerpts don't do it justice):

http://erg.environics.net/media_room/default.asp?aID=456

Nearly 20 years ago, my colleagues at Environics in Toronto and CROP in Montreal began a study of Canadian social values. In our first survey of Canadian values in 1983, we asked Canadians if they strongly or somewhat agreed or disagreed that: "The father of the family must be the master in his own house." We posed more than 100 such questions to respondents that year. Our intention was to track these 100 items over time, dropping some, adding others; we hoped we'd measure what was important to Canadians or what was changing in our values and perspectives on life.

... We found to our surprise that 42 per cent of Americans <in 1992> told us the father should be master, while 57 per cent disagreed and 1 per cent had no opinion. The gap between the two countries was a substantial 16 per cent.

... Meanwhile, we found that where 42 per cent of Americans believed the father should be master in 1992, the number increased to 44 per cent in 1996. We wondered if this was a statistical anomaly. We went back into the field in 2000 to find out if the frontal assault on patriarchal authority by U.S. president Bill Clinton and television icon Homer Simpson would bring U.S. numbers more into line with those in Canada and France.

This time, 48 per cent of Americans said the father of the family must be master in his own home; 51 per cent disagreed and 1 per cent had no opinion. We were stunned.

The details were even more stunning: Forty-three per cent of American women agreed with the statement -- up nine points from 1992. And among baby boomers aged 35 to 44, 48 per cent said dad should be boss, up 12 points over 1992. This was the biggest increase of any age cohort. (Only 15 per cent of younger Canadian boomers take this position -- meaning that the gap between younger Canadian boomers and Americans in this cohort is an astounding 33 points.)

Patriarchal bullshit attitudes are alive and thriving in the US. And, plainly, at DU.

[ironflange]

30. Well, it could be worse (but not by much)

Romeo could have taken Pops to the Olive Garden instead!

[MountainLaurel]

31. I wouldn't marry a man who asked my father for permission

My father hasn't supported me since I was 17 years old, and only very vaguely before that. Why the hell would he have the right to give his "permission" to marry me?

[Lisa0825]

34. My ex asked my dad.

I thought it was sweet. It wasn't about property. It was about respecting my dad. I was daddy's little girl, and I think it was a nice gesture for him to talk to my dad first. Had he said "Hell, no," we would have done it anyway, but it was a token of respect based on old traditions, without necessarily the "strings" that go with them.

Honestly, my dad didn't like him at all, but knew I loved him (stoopid me!lol), so he told him to be good to me, and he'd have his respect.

I think people read way too much into gestures like these. Good grief. I also have no problem with men opening doors for me, or pulling out the chair for me (as long as he's not trying to trick me!LOL)

Even when the original reasons for "chivalry" are long dead, it doesn't necessarily mean that gestures meant to be nothing but kind and considerate have to die too.

[wicket]

35. I have no problem with men opening doors for me, I do it for people all the time

What I do have a problem with is it being insinuated that I am unable to make decisions without my father's approval. If my partner approached my dad in this way, my dad would laugh him off and tell him I make my own decisions. In fact, I would take it as a sign of severe disrepect for me and my intelligence if my partner did this.

[Lisa0825]

36. Well, sorry that you would jump to such conclusions over a simple gesture.

Personally, I would judge the man on everything else about him, not such a minor matter.

[wicket]

37. edited for the patriarchy-impaired.

[youthere]

38. ha ha..my husband and I were just discussing this very thing the other night..

as we have two daughters. I asked him what he will do if some pimply faced kid comes around wanting to know if he can marry his daughters, and hubby said "I'll tell him, dude, if she already turned you down, there isn't much I can do to help you."

[wicket]

39. LOL

"I'll tell him, dude, if she already turned you down, there isn't much I can do to help you."

:rofl: