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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:14 PM
Original message
Japan had been trying to surrender for months, if not for years; rebuffed by US ---
QUOTE . . .
After the war, the world learned what U.S. leaders had known by early 1945: Japan was militarily defeated long before Hiroshima. It had been trying for months, if not for years, to surrender; and the U.S. had consistently rebuffed these overtures. A May 5 cable, intercepted and decoded by the U.S., dispelled any possible doubt that the Japanese were eager to sue for peace. Sent to Berlin by the German ambassador in Tokyo, after he talked to a ranking Japanese naval officer, it read:

Since the situation is clearly recognized to be hopeless, large sections of the Japanese armed forces would not regard with disfavor an American request for capitulation even if the terms were hard.{7} UNQUOTE

ALSO ------

Eisenhower saw no need . . ..

QUOTE: Finally, we have Gen. Dwight Eisenhower's account of a conversation with Stimson in which he told the secretary of war that:

Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary. ... I thought our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of "face". The secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude, almost angrily refuting the reasons I gave for my quick conclusions.{17}

If, as appears to be the case, U.S. policy in 1945 was based on neither the pursuit of the earliest possible peace nor the desire to avoid a land invasion, we must look elsewhere to explain the dropping of the A-bombs.UNQUOTE





QUOTE:
After the war, the world learned what U.S. leaders had known by early 1945: Japan was militarily defeated long before Hiroshima. It had been trying for months, if not for years, to surrender; and the U.S. had consistently rebuffed these overtures. A May 5 cable, intercepted and decoded by the U.S., dispelled any possible doubt that the Japanese were eager to sue for peace. Sent to Berlin by the German ambassador in Tokyo, after he talked to a ranking Japanese naval officer, it read:

Since the situation is clearly recognized to be hopeless, large sections of the Japanese armed forces would not regard with disfavor an American request for capitulation even if the terms were hard.{7}

As far as is known, Washington did nothing to pursue this opening. Later that month, Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson almost capriciously dismissed three separate high-level recommendations from within the Roosevelt administration to activate peace negotiations. The proposals advocated signaling Japan that the U.S. was willing to consider the all-important retention of the emperor system; i.e., the U.S. would not insist upon "unconditional surrender".{8}

Stimson, like other high U.S. officials, did not really care in principle whether or not the emperor was retained. The term "unconditional surrender" was always a propaganda measure; wars are always ended with some kind of conditions. To some extent the insistence was a domestic consideration -- not wanting to appear to "appease" the Japanese. More important, however, it reflected a desire that the Japanese not surrender before the bomb could be used. One of the few people who had been aware of the Manhattan Project from the beginning, Stimson had come to think of it as his bomb, "my secret", as he called it in his diary.{9} On June 6, he told President Truman he was "fearful" that before the A-bombs were ready to be delivered, the Air Force would have Japan so "bombed out" that the new weapon "would not have a fair background to show its strength".{10} In his later memoirs, Stimson admitted that "no effort was made, and none was seriously considered, to achieve surrender merely in order not to have to use the bomb".{11}

And that effort could have been minimal. In July, before the leaders of the U.S., Great Britain, and the Soviet Union met at Potsdam, the Japanese government sent several radio messages to its ambassador, Naotake Sato, in Moscow, asking him to request Soviet help in mediating a peace settlement. "His Majesty is extremely anxious to terminate the war as soon as possible", said one communication. "Should, however, the United States and Great Britain insist on unconditional surrender, Japan would be forced to fight to the bitter end."{12}

On July 25, while the Potsdam meeting was taking place, Japan instructed Sato to keep meeting with Russian Foreign Minister Molotov to impress the Russians "with the sincerity of our desire to end the war have them understand that we are trying to end hostilities by asking for very reasonable terms in order to secure and maintain our national existence and honor" (a reference to retention of Emperor Hirohito).{13}

Having broken the Japanese code years earlier, Washington did not have to wait to be informed by the Soviets of these peace overtures; it knew immediately, and did nothing. Indeed, the National Archives in Washington contains U.S. government documents reporting similarly ill-fated Japanese peace overtures as far back as 1943.{14}

Thus, it was with full knowledge that Japan was frantically trying to end the war, that President Truman and his hardline secretary of state, James Byrnes, included the term "unconditional surrender" in the July 26 Potsdam Declaration. This "final warning" and expression of surrender terms to Japan was in any case a charade. The day before it was issued, Harry Truman had approved the order to release a 15 kiloton atomic bomb over the city of Hiroshima.{15}

Many U.S. military officials were less than enthusiastic about the demand for unconditional surrender or use of the atomic bomb. At the time of Potsdam, Gen. Hap Arnold asserted that conventional bombing could end the war. Adm. Ernest King believed a naval blockade alone would starve the Japanese into submission. Gen. Douglas MacArthur, convinced that retaining the emperor was vital to an orderly transition to peace, was appalled at the demand for unconditional surrender. Adm. William Leahy concurred. Refusal to keep the emperor "would result only in making the Japanese desperate and thereby increase our casualty lists," he argued, adding that a nearly defeated Japan might stop fighting if unconditional surrender were dropped as a demand. At a loss for a military explanation for use of the bomb, Leahy believed that the decision "was clearly a political one", reached perhaps "because of the vast sums that had been spent on the project".{16} Finally, we have Gen. Dwight Eisenhower's account of a conversation with Stimson in which he told the secretary of war that:

Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary. ... I thought our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of "face". The secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude, almost angrily refuting the reasons I gave for my quick conclusions.{17}

If, as appears to be the case, U.S. policy in 1945 was based on neither the pursuit of the earliest possible peace nor the desire to avoid a land invasion, we must look elsewhere to explain the dropping of the A-bombs. UNQUOTE

http://www.venusproject.com/William_Blum/abomb.htm
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. You know, I had a thought about that
I've extensively studied the German angle, but I know little about the Pacific theater. Here's something interesting, though that ties them together:

The Germans wanted to surrender, too. They were terrified of the Russians breathing down their necks. They offered to surrender themselves to us in return for protection from the Reds. We told them to f*** off until they were ready to unconditionally surrender.

I suspect we were looking for something similar in Japan. Conditional surrender was not in our interest- we wanted to put the fear of God into the world about us...and what better way was there than 2 super-weapons, of which only we currently had?

Honestly, I know so much dirty laundry about what we did in WWII that I have to bite my tongue when people try to bring that up as proof of our moral untouchablity in the world.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes exactly! Unconditional surrender on both fronts was ludicrous
All it did was ensure Communist domination of Eastern Europe and additional time to carry out the Holocaust.



Eichmann was allegedly responsible for the deportation of men like Heimler and Levi. Unlike the case of Margarete Buber, the alleged concentration camp experiences of Heimler and Levi began long after the public announcement of unconditional surrender by President Franklin D. Roosevelt at Casablanca on January 13, 1943. The effect of this pronouncement on the prolongation of the war and on the promotion of. Communist aims in Europe has been considered by many experts. The desire in Germany for a compromise peace by the summer of 1942 was by no means confined to the German opposition to Hitler. Walter Schellenberg, The Schellenberg Memoirs (London, 1956), reveals that, as early as August, 1942, Heinrich Himmler was willing to envisage a compromise peace approximately on the basis of Germany's territorial position on September 1, 1939. Specific peace efforts of Himmler as early as 1942 were later confirmed from official Swedish sources. Schellenberg was the dominant personality in the SD (SS Security Service) after the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich by British agents in Bohemia in 1942, and he consistently exerted a moderating influence on Himmler.

The effect of unconditional surrender was certain to mean the prolongation of the war to the bitter end to the benefit of Soviet Russia. General J.F.C. Fuller, The Second World War (London, 1948, pp. 258-9), has explained that "Russia would be left the greatest military power in Europe, and, therefore, would dominate Europe." Colonel F. C. Miksche, Unconditional Surrender (London, 1952, p. 255), stated that "the unconditional surrender policy, proclaimed by President Roosevelt in Casablanca and bolstered up by a frivolous propaganda, was heedlessly put into execution."




http://www.ihr.org/books/hoggan/10.html
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:32 PM
Original message
Clearly we should have allowed the Third Reich to remain in power, yes. nt
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. Wow,"So you're saying you'd be ok if Saddam was in power??" lol
Can't believe how similar that sounds.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. It would be okay for Saddam to have remained in power.
It is a fair question to ask when people say "We shouldn't have toppled Iraq's government," and the answer is obviously a "yes" in this case. I reiterate: do you believe we should have let the Third Reich remain in power?
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
104. The Soviet Union would not have allowed this. But we ALSO did not drop an A-bomb on Germany.
Dresden notwithstanding.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. Well, in the "negotiated peace" he's talking about,
supposedly the American army prevents the Russians from invading Germany. You know, because obviously we would have wanted to risk starting a war with the Soviets to preserve the Third Reich.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. If you know anything about "Operation Paperclip" and where America is now, Nazis rule here !!!
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 03:37 PM by defendandprotect
Nazis were simply moved into America by Allen Dulles and the CIA --
JFK came to realize this ----

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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Thank God they were, yes.
Operation Paperclip was not a transfer of Nazi leadership, it was a transfer of rocketry materials and rocket scientists who were in Nazi employ. It's really common knowledge.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Allen Dulles set up the CIA using NAZIS and they were also put into the FBI ---
Werner Von Braun was, of course, building missiles for Hitler --
with slave labor.

We brought almost 60,000 NAZIS into America --

and it should be more than "common knowledge" . . . it should be common concern.

Allen Dulles helped set up Hitler --
he certainly wasn't trying to help America with these moves --
and he is a prime suspect in the coup on JFK.


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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Yes, those scientists were working with the Nazi party,
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 03:51 PM by Rhythm and Blue
because that's who was employing them. Are you suggesting Nazi influence in American politics?

Edit: no, wait, you are. "Nazis rule here." Yeah, you're just nuts. Sorry for interrupting your ravings.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. No -- Allen Dulles brought NAZIS to America to help us out . . .. !!!
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Yes, to help us build rockets.
That is what Operation Paperclip was.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. actually, we got a lot more than just rockets from the Nazis
and frankly, there were American Nazi sympathizers and war profiteers here during the war who would influence American politics down the road.

But we learned a lot from the Axis, much more than just rocketry, which was not very common knowledge at the time. We learned torture techniques from the Japanese which we are still using to this day. We learned a lot about medicine and the body because of experiments on humans in the death camps. I would even bet it goes deeper than that, unless you are one of those people who likes to assume that our government discloses everything it does to us.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Yes, we did.
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 04:16 PM by Rhythm and Blue
Those were not the direct aim of operation paperclip, which is what we were talking about. Taking information regarding rocketry, nuclear science, aeronautics, cryptography, and the like (and preventing that from falling into Russian hands) were. Importing Nazis to assassinate JFK and rule our government to this day (as the poster to which I was replying was declaring) was not. You really are on a not-having-a-clue-what-you're-replying-to roll, aren't you?
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #44
53. sorry, I had not realized how superior you are
I could have sworn you said "Yes, to help us build rockets. That is what Operation Paperclip was."

which to me seems to say that OP was only about building rockets. Must have missed those invisible words you typed somewhere.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. That would be in contrast to
"to help us assassinate JFK and establish a secret Nazi rule that persists to this day." Since the main purpose of Paperclip was rocketry (and not providing the Nazis a new power base) I didn't think I had to say "It was to help us build rockets, and also had the side goals of capturing aeronautic, cryptographic, nuclear, and other such military secrets."
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #57
105. Well, thank goodness we needed NAZIS and WAR CRIMINALS to forge ahead in rocketry!
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #105
108. They weren't war criminals, and most of them weren't ideological Nazis.
They were scientists. You'd rather the Russians have captured and used them instead?
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #108
114. I used to worship Wernher von Braun as the Father of our space program, so I do "get it". Still,
I was 12 then, and didn't realize his Nazi background. How do you, BTW, know what all these German scientists' "ideologies" were?

"The German scientist, who was pivotal in Germany's pre-war rocket development program and was responsible for the design and realization of the V-2 combat rocket during World War II, entered the United States at the end of the war through the then-secret Operation Paperclip. Although he had held the honorary SS rank of a Sturmbannführer...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #114
116. And WvB claims he was forced to join the NSDAP by his superiors.
I don't doubt that there was enormous pressure to. However, there's no evidence he actually believed any of the tenants of Nazism, nor that he was active in the party. He was an engineer first and foremost, and didn't seem to particularly enjoy the use to which the government put his rockets.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #37
63. And we learned those things and used that information depite Nuremberg dictates ---
because there was a lot of "science" developed by NAZIS thru forced experiements on victims held in concentration camps --

The "twins" study being very prominent ---

Heaven help us if the knowledge of how America came to have this information isn't widespread among Americans ---
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #63
73. based on many things, I would say that information is not widely known
Hell, 40% of American people don't even know that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, or that WMDs were never found. Would they know something from 60 years ago? The cynic in me says no, or that it's been whitewashed.

Sadly, I'll never understand the meme that goes around about how Questioning things we've done = blaming America first.

Not only does it do us a great disservice as a country to not understand our past - the good and bad and the in between - but it dooms us to repeat mistakes and worse, to assume that bad things could never happen here. Hell, there are folks who barely believe in slavery and who don't believe in the Holocaust in WWII or think that there is no racial discrimination. Scary stuff.

Honestly, I would love if we could admit our mistakes so that we stop doing them (like the coup we backed in Iran which is still causing us problems), and that it would be seen as maturity and not blame.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. I can only hope that Americans are waking up -- and that the internet is educating us all . . .
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 04:47 PM by defendandprotect
though I wish it were a bit faster --

Imagine that only three years or so ago, I could come on to most websites and find that HUGE numbers of people didn't believe the reality of Global Warming --

and were usually totally unwilling to say that fascism was crossing the threshold in America --

Very late -- but at least those two issues seem to be sunk in now --

You can't say that we don't see skepticism . . . just that it seems oddly misplaced and absent when needed -- !!!

Torture seems to be one of those subjects that many right-wing Americans really don't want to see--
As some brilliant person said here recently about Clarence Thomas --
"Even those who believe Clarence Thomas know that he is lying" ---





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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
56. Operation Paperclip was foremost about moving NAZI intelligence figures into America + CIA ---
FBI -- everywhere in government . . ..

JFK was beginning to find out about this ---
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Yes, intelligence figures who were knowledgeable about
cryptography, rocketry, and the like. Not to exert any sort of government control over America.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. Oh, yeah, we told them to stop being NAZIS . . . but, then again, Dulles was one -- !!!!
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Allen Dulles was a Nazi now?
You're funny.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #68
76. Good lord . . . what is it that you read, or what you know, that you don't know that????
Try this -- Allen Dulles funded the third reich -- and Hitler --

Try this -- Allen Dulles is complicit in the coup on JFK ---

Now -- if you don't know any of those things, I'd suggest that you stop wasting your time posting here --- and go read something.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. It's fun when you don't have to back up anything you say!
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 04:43 PM by Rhythm and Blue
Dulles was an opponent of Hitler, not a supporter.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #78
85. Seriously, google Allen Dulles + Prescott Bush + Sullivan + Cromwell, the law firm . . .
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 05:13 PM by defendandprotect
Google, Prescott Bush . . . and USHR Unamerican Activities -- and FBI confiscating Prescott Bush's assets because he was running front companies to finance Hitler --

Then come back and tell us what you've found ---


Allen Dulles + Prescott Bush funded Hitler --
One method was to cash in American dollars for GOLD and ship it to Hitler --
Another method was raising money from elites around the world for Hitler --
Another was running from companies which raised money for Hitler --
Hamburg Line, I believe was one of the front companies --

The FBI finally closed down Prescott Bush --
he wrapped himself in the flag -- dedicated himself to intelligence work --
and was in Congress for quite some period of time . . . finally, advertising for and raising
Richard Nixon who proceeded to do his dirty work for him -- for a slush-fund salary.



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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #85
93. I found unsourced conspiracy sites.
Can you give me a reputable source?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #93
120. Well, then, lay there and maybe someone will spoon-feed you some info ---!!!
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #120
121. Please do.
I should like to read this reliable, sourced site that explains how the Nazis are in control.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #121
125. Maybe someone else will take pity on you ---
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #125
140. I suppose that's a nice way of saying,
"I got nothin'."
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #140
154. It's a nice way of saying that evidently you can't even find the info ...
of links and information re Dulles being posted in this very thread!
Look around you; people are giving you links.
If you don't look, you will continue to have "nothing" . ...
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #154
155. Yeah. The information I found was completely unsourced.
I'm asking for verifiable sources. I can't find any.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #155
158. Look above the comments you just made . . . people are offering you help . . .
Edited on Wed Oct-10-07 03:31 PM by defendandprotect
and below ---
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #158
159. One of the funniest things I've ever heard: you can find links between Bush + Nazis on the web !!!!
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #158
160. Let me reiterate: I want verifiable articles, pointing to primary sources I can look up,
Edited on Wed Oct-10-07 03:42 PM by Rhythm and Blue
not essays. Barring that, I want a link to a source that is at least mildly reputable. I want actual information, not some guy saying "trust me, this is what happened." And I have not seen a single link provided along those lines.

Do you have anything, or are you just wasting our time?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #160
161. No -- you're wasting everyone's time . . .. move on ---
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #161
162. So you're back to "I've got nothing" then. nt
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leftist_not_liberal Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #78
92. the real story of treason by the Dulles brothers
(John Foster and Allen) and Sullivan and Cromwell begins with the ending of the first world war. Cromwell would remain in Paris and John Foster Dulles, while not formally in charge of the New York office, would be the force to be reckoned with in New York. In 1926, Allan Dulles resigned his position with the State Department and went into private practice at Sullivan & Chromwell law firm where his brother John Foster also worked. Several Wall Street firms figured prominently in guiding investments into Germany, in the 1920s as well as in the 1930s. However, almost all deals would involve the services of Sullivan and Cromwell.

Coinciding with the Dawes Plan, John Foster Dulles arranged a large loan for Krupp. To obtain the loan Dulles had called Leland Harrison, Assistant Secretary of State to soft-pedal the item in the news. Harrison was infuriated because the department had issued a circular asking to see foreign loans before American funds were exported. Dulles knew, however, that Harrison had no authority to stop the loan. Dulles wanted to avoid the State Department’s scrutiny as to whether German factories were producing military hardware. To avoid any scrutiny Dulles chose a Saturday to call Harrison. Sullivan and Cromwell, at Dulles behest accepted the assurances of Krupp that all military hardware had been destroyed.

The Krupp loan opened a new era at Sullivan and Cromwell. It was the start of a massive investment in Germany by U.S. banks. Banks competed with each other for the services of the firm in arranging German loans. Within a year America, had lent Germany $150 million dollars. Such massive lending worried both German and United States governments. The State Department privately warned bankers and lawyers of the growing indebtedness of Germany. Dulles actively promoted the loans, and Sullivan and Cromwell supervised an endless stream of German bonds. Many of the prospectuses contained errors and had never been proofread due to the frantic pace; others were deliberately deceptive. A Bavarian bond prospectus began "Bavaria has an excellent credit history"; however, Bavaria had defaulted on its debt the year before.82 Almost seventy percent of the money flowing into Germany during the 1930s came from U.S. investors.
Dulles derived much of his profits and his clients' profits from investments in Nazi Germany. In the 1930s Dulles set about creating an incredible interlocking financial network between Nazi corporations, American Oil and Saudi Arabia. Here Allen had help from his brother Foster. Perhaps the best-known deal arranged by Dulles was between I.G. Farben and Standard Oil of New Jersey. What is generally not known Farben was the second largest shareholder in standard Oil of New Jersey, second to only John D. Rockefeller himself.113 Another Rockefeller controlled corporation that Dulles worked to protect was the Rockefeller corporation United Fruit, both United Fruit and Standard Oil of New Jersey continued to trade with the Nazis after the out break of war.

In the 1930s, Dulles arranged for the wealthy Czech family, the Petscheks, to sell their interest in Silesian Coal to George Mernane. Mernane was used merely to hide the Petscheks' interest. Dulles then sold the shares to his friend Schacht, the Nazi economic minister. After the sale, Dulles became director of Consolidated Silesian Steel Company. Its sole asset was a one-third interest in Upper Silesian Coal and Steel Company. The remainder of the shares were controlled by Fredrich Flick.83 This was one of the companies seized from Prescott Bush for trading with the enemy.

Allen Dulles' role at Sullivan and Cromwell soon developed into that of a fixer. The Mellons hired him to convince the Colombian government not to confiscate its investments in Colombian's rich oil and mineral fields. He did so by rigging the 1932 Colombian presidential election.

By 1934, John Foster Dulles was publicly supporting Nazi philosophy. In 1935, he wrote a long article for the Atlantic Monthly entitled "The Road to Peace." He excused Germany’s secret rearmament as an action to take back their freedom. Knowing what he did about Inco and Germany’s munitions industry, Dulles mislead the readers in asserting Germany’s, Italy’s, and Japan’s desires for peace. Later in the 1930s, Dulles helped organize the American First group. A month before Pearl Harbor, he donated $500 to the group. Later, he would claim no association with the group.84 Dulles continued his support of the Nazi line right up to the time Germany invaded Poland. Dulles' excuse for the Poland invasion was much like blaming the victim for the crime.
http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/1920sp2.html
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #92
124. An interesting part of the story, but doesn't include Herbert Walker, Prescott Bush or confiscation
of Prescott Bush's assets and the shutting down of the front companies ---

There's tons of stuff on that on the internet ---

I think what you turned up is also highly interesting in its specifics --
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leftist_not_liberal Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #124
128. That online ~700 pg book is not Bush-centric
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #128
129. I'm familiar with the broad outlines of it and a bit more . . .. lots of reading there--!!!
I do a great deal of reading, but it's difficult to read everything so it's helpful when
someone brings something interesting to your attention. Thanks!
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unc70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #56
135. I worked with Paperclip scientists and you are clueless. OTH Gehlen was evil.
You are confusing the spy operations using Gehlen and others with the separate activities which brought German scientists and engineers to the US, UK, and elsewhere under Paperclip and other projects.

No defense by me for the Brothers Dulles and their ilk, or the SS, or for those scientists who did medical research in the camps, and many others. The Paperclip (and related) scientists - rockets, chemistry, physics -- are generally quite different, particularly the physicists. Many had been accused of being involved in "Jewish science" and barely survived. Only the prestige of the research scientists, some Nobel winners, plus the chance personal relationships a few had from boyhood with the Nazi leadership saved them.

Nearly 40 years ago, I worked for one of these scientists for a while, mostly one-on-one. While I wish I had taken more and better notes back then, I remember many of those conversations. As documents are finally being de-classified, I am now able to put things in better perspective. Back then, I was comparing WWII with Vietnam; now, with Iraq.

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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. Did you read the link?
Why do think the Nazis would have remained in power? Look at all the European wars of the 19th century. Change of government is quite frequent when losing an armed conflict.


Roosevelt, after some thought, seems to have recognized at least momentarily the folly of this policy, and on May 23, 1944, sent a note to Churchill and Stalin suggesting that a return be made to the policy of Woodrow Wilson and an appeal be made to the German people over the heads of Hitler and his government, offering peace if the National Socialist government would be overthrown. Churchill rejected it instantly
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Yes, with a return to Sep. 1, 1939 borders,
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 03:47 PM by Rhythm and Blue
which would include the territories annexed before the invasion of Poland; clearly unacceptable. Also, nowhere does the article state that the Germans intended to dismantle the Nazi government with their offer of a conditional peace; you point to a suggestion by Roosevelt that maybe they might.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
29. The Third Reich was in Japan now?
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 03:59 PM by unpossibles
huh. My history books got that part all wrong.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Perhaps you would consider reading the post I was replying to.
It would make you look like less of a fool.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. I did read it
if you want to resort to name calling, you might not find yourself too comfortable here. I'd personally rather have a discussion about this.

If Germany and Japan were trying to surrender, how does that leave the Third Reich in power?

Also, do you think that killing thousands of civilians is an acceptable solution to war?
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. And I was replying to a post talking about Germany, with a link about the Eastern Front.
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 04:16 PM by Rhythm and Blue
That is why I was talking about the Third Reich. You see, the Third Reich was in Germany, which is the nation we were talking about. We had stopped talking about Japan in that subthread. If you had read those, you would have been able to figure that out, and would not have posted that Japan crack.

Germany was not attempting to surrender, it was attempting a negotiated peace by which it would keep its 1939 borders, and in which there is no mention of dismantling the Nazi regime. That would indeed be leaving the Third Reich in power. If you had read the posts in this thread before replying, you would have known that already.

I'm sorry to have hurt your feelings, but it's extremely frustrating when someone acts sarcastic because they did not bother reading past the subject lines.

Finally, when the option is killing more civilians, yes.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. well, I read them in order, and there is something screwy with the
"response to" thing in the upper left because it said it was a response to the original thread.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Yeah, it says "original post" there. Very strange.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. it is
sorry - I only noticed that because I noticed mine said that too.

no harm, no foul. And yes, I am a smartass.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. All right, kiss-and-make up time
:loveya:
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tuckessee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
175. Unconditional surrender kept the Nazis in power.
Hitler & the Nazis were not liked by many of the historically apolitical German professional military class.

They were plotting, primarily through the Abwehr, to kill or remove Hitler and sue for peace as early as 1940.

This early effort was flustered by the Abwehr's rapid loss of power due to widespread operational failures (many engineered ironically by Stalinist super spy Kim Philby & his Iberian section of British intelligence).

The invasion of Russia in 1941 created an even greater anti-Hitler movement in the Wehrmacht.

The clear thinking officers knew that if the war ran to its conclusion it would mean the total destruction of Germany.

When FDR stunned the world with his call for unconditional surrender it took the wind out of the renewed anti-Nazi movement.

They lost support because potential co-conspirators reasoned that even if they killed Hitler & removed the Nazis they would still have to fight the war because the Allies insisted in unconditional surrender & had rebuffed any overture at negotiation.

I'm firmly convinced that without the unconditional surrender demands Hitler would've been killed by elements of Wehrmacht and the war would've ended favorably for the Allies as early as the beginning of 1944.

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BadgerLaw2010 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were entirely undeserving of conditional surrender.
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 03:44 PM by BadgerLaw2010
Nazis: Insane and genocidal.
Japanese: Highly aggressive and genocidal.

Leaving either of the two governments in power or any of their machinery in place is simply not an option. Put it this way: You don't see the Chinese and the Russians arguing that WWII was too hard on the Japanese and the Germans, respectively. The Chinese feel it wasn't nearly hard enough, and based on what the Japanese systematically did to China, I have a hard time disagreeing with them if I was in their position.

How can you compromise with brutality like that?
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
61. I agree
Sure the Nazi's tried to end the war with England and the US, but all surrender was based on moving the chairs around of those in power in the NAZI power, didn't end the genocide caused by the NAZI's, would require the US and England to engage in war with the Russians, and most important couldn't be backed up by those negotiating. Which is to say the fraction of the government trying to negotiate in general didn’t have the political power to deliver on their side of the promises. The surrender was being used by different fraction to try to obtain power in their own countries power structure.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #16
138. After Pearl Harbor and the story of Bataan, no chance in hell of US accepting conditional surrender
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
35. Unconditional surrender is the only way that we were able to have allies
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Agree -- though . . .
many here will avoid even looking at this thread --
they prefer the fairy tales.

I also was thinking -- something that I've never seen mentioned before -- that another reason for knocking out Japan with the A-bomb would have been to try to encourage what happened -- i.e., that essentially America "won the war."

Sure, we took Great Britain along for the ride -- though they were pretty well finished as far as their "empire" etal -

And, Russia was quickly dropped as an "ally" --- almost unacknowledged and unknown now!!!

Now, granted -- I don't think this is the face of America -- I think this is the face of right-wing/fascist America. Truman had a guy at his elbow -- John McCloy? -- which seemed not too healthy for peace in the world. And -- wow -- lots of WWII propaganda was racially based -- and once taught -- that's pretty hard to overcome so lots of racism involved in the decision and made it easier to put it over.



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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. By Russia I assume you mean Stalin's Soviet Union? n/t
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I believe we used to refer to them as our "Russian allies" . . . did you have a comment?
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. They ceased to be anything of the sort
somewhere between the words "Berlin" and "Blockade."
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. You're denying they were our "Russian allies" --- ????
And, further, try to give some open-minded thought to the Cold War as another phony structure . .. .

Once scientists had delivered the atomic bomb -- war became suicidal --

"yet it was the device they used to control society --
and it had been taken from them by their own scientists."

"Nuclear war was suicide -- thus the Cold War -- "

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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. No - just suggesting there might be a reason we downplayed our alliance with Stalins Soviet Union nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
39. You're denying they were our "Russian allies" --- ????


And, further, try to give some open-minded thought to the Cold War as another phony structure . .. .

Once scientists had delivered the atomic bomb -- war became suicidal --

"yet it was the device they used to control society --
and it had been taken from them by their own scientists."

"Nuclear war was suicide -- thus the Cold War -- "
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. I am stating that they were our allies, and ceased to be so
around the time they blockaded Berlin, in hopes of starving the city into surrendering.

Please attempt to give some open-minded thought to obeying standard writing mechanics, especially regarding punctuation.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #42
74. We know what happened AFTER . .. . the COLD WAR began . . .
we are talking about Russia being our "allies" during the war --
try to stay with the subject --

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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #74
83. Actually, we're talking about how they were "quickly dropped as an ally,"
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 04:58 PM by Rhythm and Blue
as you stated. That happened around the time they attempted to starve an entire city into submission. It's not like anyone hides the fact that they were our allies in WW2, or that Soviet-American relationships quickly eroded after V-E day.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #83
91. We're talking about atomic weapons and the desire of fascists to use them ---
The need for a COLD WAR when after atomic weapons were invented --

And nuclear war was suicide -- thus creating the necessity for the Cold War --

"War -- the device they used to control society had been taken from them by their own scientists" ---


As for the history of any nation; one atrocity cannot be isolated from any other atrocity ---
genocide against the native Indian, enslavement of Africans in America, our false flag operations,
Vietnam, Operation Phoenix, our slaughter of innocents in Korea -- 1.2 million Iraqis dead currently -- these things cannot be isolated from any other country's past immoral acts --
They are the SAME.

Did we starve native Indians -- did we hold them on reservations --?
Did we torture thousands of Iraqis -- maybe tens of thousands of Iraqis?

It's all the SAME!

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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #91
96. Posting while high kills, dude. n/t
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #96
117. Well, then, you shouldn't do it ---
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #117
157. I'm serious.
Edited on Wed Oct-10-07 03:14 PM by Rhythm and Blue
What you wrote does not make any sense at all. There is no order. It does not address anything in particular, and the only thread that runs consistently through it is your insane breed of English punctuation. It is utterly incoherent. I am hoping for your sake that you were under the influence of mind-altering drugs when you wrote it.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yes, a conditional peace.
Not an unconditional surrender, which we demanded. We did not want the earliest possible peace, we wanted the earliest possible unconditional surrender.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. Tora! Tora! Tora! was on the other day. what a great film!
Of course it doesn't cover any of the above...
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Sequoia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. I'd have to say it's my favorite WWII movie.
I liked that the movie showed the Japenese side and that dog fight in the sky was cool. And what makes it so much better is it was real and not some dopey computer animation junk.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. What kind of restraint did the Japenese show before they started losing the war?
Are you familiar with the Bataan Death March?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Try reading what Eisenhower is saying here . . .BEFORE we dropped the Atomic bombs ---
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Apparently Roosevelt felt differently than Eisenhower
So your theory is that we should have accepted some half surrender that would let Japan save face and rearm for future conflicts? I don't agree.

Bryant
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. FDR was dead before the question arose . . . he thought Germany was building an atomic weapon ---
FIRST . . .
It is Albert Eisnstein who writes to FDR suggesting that he should consider the atomic bomb project and it is based on fear that Germany is building an atomic weapon --

LATER . . .
they know positively that Germany does not have the atomic bomb; isn't working on it.

Einstein is against the use of the atomic weapon --

So the circumstance change --
but, finally, the decision to drop the atomic weapons is from all we can see to be found elsewhere than a threat by the already defeated Japan ---

More than likely it is to create America as a Superpower ---



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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. So where does the CIA plan for secret Nazi control come in?
You know, the one you mentioned earlier.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
52. Allen Dulles founded the CIA using Nazi intelligence figures ---
and

CIA had dominant role in the Cold War ---

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BadgerLaw2010 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. How can you morally justify showing militarist Japan any sort of negotiated "mercy"?
The Japanese were perfectly happy to wage total war and treat prisoners and civilians horribly when they were winning. Not only is not beating them into the ground and occupying them letting them off light, it leaves them with the ability to do it again.

Areas under Japanese occupation suffered tremendously. Letting them keep any of it would be morally bankrupt.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. What is the US doing today in showing "no mercy" -- ???
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 04:07 PM by defendandprotect
We've already "beaten the Iraqis into the ground" -- and "occupied them" --
Have we let Iraq off "easy" -- ???

And we bombed them for 12 years before this -- killing a half a million childrn.

Maybe we should drop atomic weapons on Iraq and Iran -- eh???

And, of course, Eisenhower was just a pacifist -- willing to show "militarist Japan some sort of negotiated 'mercy.'"

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BadgerLaw2010 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Answer the question. It has nothing to do with Iraq today.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
49. Part II -- MERCY certainly does have something to do with Iraq today . . ..
You cannot suggest that the US today isn't a torturer -- ????

We arrested something like 40,000 or 80,000 people all over the world post 9/11 --
which is a farce! How could it be possible for four commercial airliners to be simultaneously hijacked -- ???? Is this a new view of Bush America -- ???

Moving people off to be tortured in other countries cause if we don't directly torture them, then we didn't do it -- ????

And you're supporting this torture -- ???

You can't be against torture when someone else does it --
but for it when your country does it --
You can't be against mercy for your enemies, but for mercy when you are the enemy ---
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. Baloney
The world after 1945 was bi-polar not multi-polar.

How long would it have taken Japan to rebuild without American assistance? Without material resources how would a neo-Japanese empire arise to challenge our jet fighters, super carriers and ICBMs?


Japan was a happily isolated state until Perry forced open Tokyo Bay at gun point. The Japanese were quite eager to learn our industrial and military expertise in the following decades. President Teddy Roosevelt negotiated favorable terms for the Japanese in their imperialistic war with Czarist Russia. Certainly the experience of WWI validated the idea that nations could and did go to war over control of resources.
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BadgerLaw2010 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. I suggest you review what the Japanese did to China and Korea.
If you have a strong stomach, that is.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. Why would the Japanese still be in mainland Asia?
I don't understand how allowing war to continue longer than necessary would saves lives. I am not denying Japanese attrocities.



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BadgerLaw2010 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. Japanese were not evicted from mainland Asia during the war. So, let them keep it, or not?
Since we are trying to end the war before it did historically, we're also talking about Manchuria, in addition to everything they historically still had troops on, on V-J day.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:32 PM
Original message
Maybe you should read what we did in Korea --?
There was a book on that and a TV documentary only a few years ago --

And, maybe you should take a look at what we're doing in Afghanistan and Iraq --

and have been doing in Iraq for almost two decades -- !!!!

Oh -- and, don't forget to look at the US TORTURE ---


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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
72. The fact that you would even attempt to legitimize what the Japanese did
is revolting.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. The fact that you would try to legitimize American TORTURE is revolting -- !!!
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. We're not talking about American torture. We're talking about allowing the Japanese in WW2
to keep their control over the territories they conquered. American torture is wrong, but bringing that up as a defense of the Japanese in WW2 is horrendous. Next time you're out browsing Nazis-Killed-JFK conspiracy sites, read up on the Rape of Nanking.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #77
87. You're either for Torture or not -- country of origin doesn't matter ---
Torture or human rights? That's the question . . .
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #87
94. I'm obviously not for American torture.
I don't see why that means I have to be in favor of allowing Imperial Japan to continue its occupation of Manchuria, China, and Taiwan.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #94
126. It doesn't mean that I'm in favor of anything you're suggesting either ---
I am in favor of understanding that there are other ways to look at the attack on Japan -- it was immoral by any standards --

It was an attack on civilian communities -- while Truman claimed it was an attack on a "military base."

Out of the past, comes our destruction today --
no one knows what the environmental damage from blasting atomic weapons has been --
JFK had the wison to try to stop the tests -- try to limit the weapons race ---
and to end the Cold War --

And the outdated mentality which insists that violence is a way to peace
seems once again related to warprofiteering and keeping populations living in fear.

When Clinton left office we had a surplus and peace ---
Bush has almost succeeded in setting the entire world on fire.





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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #72
81. Revolting but completely unsurprising.
In fact, the premise of this thread is deranged, and so are all ensuing posts by the OP. I admire your forbearance.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #81
88. The premise of this thread is obviously something that you want to ignore ---
TORTURE is torture no matter who does it --
currently, we have American fascists doing it ---

And they seem to be closely connected to the fascists who brought us WWII --

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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #88
95. No, you git, the premise of this thread
was that we should have let the Japanese and German governments have a negotiated peace, in which they keep their governments and some conquered territory, and their leaders are held unaccountable. Your secondary theory is that Nazis are in control of our government. If I had mod powers, you'd have been tombstoned for that one.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #95
118. No -- the subject is that Japan was defeated -- and was seeking to surrender ---
Whatever the terms that might have been agreed upon or not -- the US was ignoring the requests.
In fact, later, Japan tried to get new please for peace thru Russia to the American government ---

There was no reason to drop atomic weapons --


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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #118
141. The problem was that Japan was NOT SEEKING TO SURRENDER.
Edited on Wed Oct-10-07 11:53 AM by Rhythm and Blue
They were seeking a conditional peace, by which they would keep their militarized government, and keep their brutally conquered territories in Manchuria, Taiwan, Korea, and China. That is not "surrender," that's "okay, we keep everything we stole and our war criminals are not held accountable, and you let us rearm for another go."
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #95
152. "git" is such a wonderful, and underused, descriptor...
many thanks for your most appropriate use of it here in this thread :hi:

Sid
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #41
89. I'd suggest that the Japanese behaved the same wherever they went.
They weren't nice in Indochina, Indonesia or the Philippines.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. Correct -- !!! and recently the USA was moving to re-arm Japan -- !!!!
Japan didn't want it -- said they couldn't be trusted!!!!

And, of course, America's right wing had a lot to do with the re-arming of Germany . . .
which was counter to the peace agreements after WWI ---

Thus -- Hitler -- voila!

And Dulles/Herbert Walker/Prescott Bush -- all had a lot to do with this arming of Hitler --
cashing in dollars for GOLD and shipping it to Hitler --
Raising money from around the world to support Hitler ---

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
43. I didn't make the suggestion; military leaders did . . ..
Obviously Eisehower knew what was observable but not necessarily about all the peace efforts that were being made by Japan ---

Like today, there are those among us who want to keep us divided by war --
and perpetual war --


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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
90. So you're arguing the bombing was revenge.
Instead of to "protect the troops"

it's a case of the perpetual shifting goal posts.
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
13. Surrender is the wrong word.
According to the Japanese accounts, they entered the war expecting to negotiate a peace settlement with the United States (forcing the US to surrender to Japan was laughable even to the Japanese).

From the beginning they wanted to acquire as much as possible, and hold as much as possible while negotiating an agreement with the US. They miscalculated the impact Pearl Harbor had on the American public. There was no way the US was going to let them keep their gains and negotiate peace except for a surrender after the anger of Pearl Harbor.

The "feelers" were always a negotiated settlement NOT a surrender. Even to the end the idea of surrender was not palatable to the military in power.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
24. Hey, you can't post stuff like this in the fall
Wait until at least July 2008.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
33. Yep. Careful scholarship shows that it was done to keep Stalin out of Japan...
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 04:05 PM by Junkdrawer
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #33
46. Once they invented nuclear weapons only COLD WAR was possible ----
in order to keep people living in fear ---
a perpetual COLD WAR --
which JFk ended ---

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nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
71. Yep, the agreeement was: USSR declares war on Japan within 90 days after VE Day.
Which they did, exactly 90 days later, beginning an assault in Manchuria.

One can read the old newspapers and news magazines from the 1920s up to 1941 and see there were many war scares between Japan and the Netherlands and the British Empire. Why? Lack of resources for Japan's rapidly growing industralized and highly cramped population. Solution: Dutch Indonesian oil, Chinese food fields, Korean coal, and Manchurian coal and iron. Add in a crazed militaristic state who set endogomy to a new level and voila, the stage was set for the Japanese to claim their "divine right" to the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere.

Even after the first bomb going off, the Supreme War Council with the Emperor refused to surrender. It took the second one for the Emperor to break the tie. . .

The British and Chinese were not going to settle for anything less than total unconditional surrender and the USA was probably not either, though they may have once the island hopping was in its final stages and Allied feet on home island soil and the blood was flowing in epic quantity on every side.

We have to look without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight: it was a big bomb that could destroy a city with one release. That was about what the majority of people knew about radiation and "nuclear stuff." It was big and it was awesome and it would end the war...definitely.

The Cold War began with the Long Telegram and Truman's refusal to allow the USSR an occupation force in Japan. But, in all fairness, Zhukov and the Red Army conquered the East of Europe from the Nazis "fair and square." Poland and Czechoslovakia were the states they should not have meddled with, IMO, as they were already conquered states under Nazi domination or annexation, unlike Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria, which were Axis states!

Eisenhower was not in the PTOW at all -- that was Stinson's ballgame with MacArthur and Halsey for the US. General Eisenhower was in Europe.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
51. You know, it's amazing how many people will defend the indefensible
Torture, rape, imperialism, illegal wars...now nuclear weapons. Educational...and disturbing. We are so screwn as a species.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #51
62. But..but...they did it first...we wuz just getting back....
The use of force to STOP murder is one thing, revenge, and specifically the mass murder of innocents, is a whole other kettle of fish...
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. Certainly it is.
The dropping of the atomic bombs was intended for the first purpose, not the second.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. See post #33 above. It was done for geopolitical reasons. n/t
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Riktor Donating Member (476 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #66
80. That is debateable
The decision to drop the atomic bomb was made after the Soviet Union declared war against Japan. It may be suggested the decision to go nuclear may, in part, be attributed to the possibility of a Japan partitioned between US and Soviet influence. The human cost of continuing conventional warfare against Japan was no doubt a concern, but the atomic bomb likewise served as a means of keeping the Soviets out of Japan, and demonstrating our military superiority to our newfound competitors.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. Certainly I believe that was a concern.
That does not fall under the realm of "retribution," though.
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Riktor Donating Member (476 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. Agreed
The assertion nuclear weapons were used out of retribution is ridiculous. The US was faced with important decisions, be it the human expense of invading Japan or the geopolitical consequences of partitioning the country between US and Soviet control, which eclipse "retribution" in the grand scheme of things. It is likely feelings of retribution were used as a means of justifying the carnage wrought on the Japanese by the atomic weapons, but it is absurd to suggest it weighed heavily in the decision to use these weapons.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #86
97. Retribution was a big part of the decision in this way:
There were obviously two camps: The Eisenhower et al camp and the Stimson et al camp. And we all agree that neither camp had retribution in the front of their minds. Truman made the decision. All Stimson had to do was lean over and whisper: "Imagine the voter outrage once all the Japanese crimes come out and it becomes known you had a super weapon and didn't use it."
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. I really haven't read anything
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 05:55 PM by Rhythm and Blue
suggesting that voter anger over a lack of punishment for crimes had anything to do with it. After all, the German crimes were even greater, and the world specifically did not impose punishments on the German populace, having learned the lesson of Versailles. The bigger problem was, "Imagine all the voter outrage once a half-million Americans die in the invasion and it becomes known you had a super weapon and didn't use it."
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. That still begs the question: Would Japan have surrendered without..
either an invasion or the use of Atomic weapons? And the careful historical analysis seems to be "Yes, but Russia would have been involved in the settlement."
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. Probably so. The flipside to that is,
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 06:10 PM by Rhythm and Blue
"Was Truman aware of this? Or did Truman's intelligence lead him to believe that the only feasible choices were invasion and nuclear attack?"

Given the fact that even the Japanese considered the idea of a surrender laughable at the time of the attack, I would say that Truman could not have realistically known that Japan would have eventually buckled without need for anything "more" than allowing Russia to take control of China, Korea, and Manchuria (and would not say that any American at the time would find that proposition remotely acceptable)
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Riktor Donating Member (476 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. In my humble opinion, you are correct
Japan's military and infrastructure was destroyed. It was only a matter of time before they accepted surrender (it required time as there were fringe elements within the Japanese military that wished to continue the fight, but as I recall, they were eventually suppressed anyhow). Unfortunately, with the Soviet Union's declaration of war against Japan, time was not in our favor. Expedience won out, and we dropped the bomb to avoid the political consequences of a partitioned Japan.
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Riktor Donating Member (476 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #97
100. But it wasn't retribution on the part of decision makers
The American public's desire for retribution doesn't translate to those who made the decision to drop the bomb. If what you are saying is historical fact, then it suggests political motives behind the use of atomic weapons, not base feelings of retribution.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. Completely agree, except the Soviets weren't new-found competitors...
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 05:00 PM by Junkdrawer
there's a considerable body of evidence that RW elements in the US and Britain funded Hitler's rise as a hedge against the spread of Soviet Communism. Hitler was a Frankenstein monster that came back to attack his creators.

The alliance of the USSR and Britain/US has to be one of the most ironic (and short lived) alliances in World History.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #51
64. And by "indefensible" you mean
"allowing two of the most genocidal regimes in history to continue to stand?" Because that's what's being defended in this thread.
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BadgerLaw2010 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Indeed. Massive ignorance of history in this thread.
I suppose 20 million dead Chinese don't care if you negotiate and let Japan keep parts of China.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. And I'm sure that Austrian Jewry wouldn't have minded
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 04:30 PM by Rhythm and Blue
allowing the Third Reich to remain intact with its Sept. 1939 borders.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #67
107. So now we bombed Japanese civilians to save China?
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #107
111. In part, yeah.
We needed to end the war with a Japanese surrender, due in large part to the barbarism the Japanese displayed during their occupation of China; there's no way that allowing them to continue to occupy it would have flown. Bombing Japanese civilians was determined by Truman to be less costly to both American and Japanese lives than an invasion would have been, and it did not appear as if the Japanese were going to surrender without either.

We also wished to prevent the totalitarian Soviets from taking political control of China, Manchuria, and Korea. We wished to end the war quickly. The atomic bombs accomplished that.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #51
130. Especially when war and atomic bombs can only be harmful to us -- to the planet. I don't get it !!!
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #130
133. Apparently sanity is in short supply these days
Imagine telling our children during a nuclear winter:

"It was the best choice at the time"

Excuse me???
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #133
142. Given that the poster to which you are replying
believes that the German Nazi party was secretly protected to allow it to "rule America today," and given that he is defending the notion of allowing two of the most genocidal regimes in history to have been allowed to stand, I would agree with your statement.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #142
147. You didn't read the rest of operation paperclip, did you?
Very enlightening, as is MK Ultra and various things that came of bringing some of those "brilliant" minds here.

America is hardly what you make it out to be...but then, there are plenty of whitewashers available to our gov't, it seems...and they even work for free!
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #147
148. Stay on target.
Edited on Wed Oct-10-07 12:14 PM by Rhythm and Blue
Am I making America out to be anything? Have I defended any of America's crimes against humanity? Have I denied the existence of CIA research programs that drew on Nazi scientists? No, no, and no. Let's stay on point here.

I have denied that the German Nazi party was secretly brought over to America to "rule here today," because that's fucking insane conspiracy mongering, and I believe that the two most aggressively genocidal empires in history should not have been allowed to stand with their conquered territories intact, as the OP declares. Try combatting those points, instead of going off on wild tangents.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #148
150. Wild tangents?
I didn't read all of your posts earlier(lacking in meat, so to speak), but I recall an attack on the OP regarding paperclip ONLY bringing rocket engineers here, and denying that such an operation compromised our gov't by allowing them on the inside of our national security circle, often giving them favored positions(and that's not even touching the issue of war profiteering).

As for our Gov't being Nazis, I'll let history deal with that, assuming the data is not somehow "lost" as the 5 million emails were.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #150
151. Well, since you didn't read the posts that you're attacking, I'll recap.
Edited on Wed Oct-10-07 12:31 PM by Rhythm and Blue
I denied that the purpose of Op. Paperclip was to bring Nazis to America in order to have them rule our government. I stated that it was aimed at rocketry. Someone else said, "no, there was more to it," and I agreed, explaining that cryptography, aeronautics, and many other military sciences were secondary aims of Paperclip. I also stated that while it was correct that many former Nazis were brought under American employ, they were brought to engage in technical functions, not political ones. Nazis were not brought over to plan policy, they were breaking codes and explaining their research on rocketry, jet engines, human anatomy, weaponry, and the like. Many did achieve high-level positions--as directors of engineering and research in the fields they were experts in. WvB is the most notorious example.

Our government may be secretive, violent, and approaching fascist, and I do not deny any of that. What I do deny is that it has been--and still is--ruled by literal, honest-to-God members of the German National Socialist party, who were secretly ferried to America, have been ruling us for decades, and who killed JFK when he found out he was only a Nazi puppet.

I also denied that we should have allowed Japan and Germany to negotiate a peace by which their governments stayed intact and they kept their conquered territories.

Now please argue against my points, and not against things that you think I might maybe believe.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #151
166. Ok, I'll play ball for 1 post
I stated that it was aimed at rocketry. Someone else said, "no, there was more to it," and I agreed, explaining that cryptography, aeronautics, and many other military sciences were secondary aims of Paperclip.


There was another group you omitted, ignoring the connection I suggest with MK Ultra. People skilled in "behavior modification."

The possibility of scientists being won to the Soviet side in the
Cold War was, according to Captain Wev, the highest consideration. In
a March 1948 letter to the State Department, Wev assessed the
prevailing view in the government: "esponsible officials ... have
expressed opinions to the effect that, in so far as German scientists
are concerned, Nazism no longer should be a serious consideration from
a viewpoint of national security when the far greater threat of
Communism is now jeopardizing the entire world. I strongly concur in
this opinion and consider it a most sound and practical view, which
must certainly be taken if we are to face the situation confronting us
with even an iota of realism. To continue to treat Nazi affiliations
as significant considerations has been aptly phrased as `beating a
dead Nazi horse.'"


http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/radiation/dir/mstreet/commeet/meet13/brief13/tab_f/br13f3.txt

Now, if you backtrack, many of the "medical assets" were thrown under the bus after they got done spilling the beans on what they knew, and suddenly you start hearing about MK-Artichoke and Ultra programs.

Who knows whether we were dabbling in those areas beforehand, but certainly after you had people from paperclip working on bioweapons programs, spying for us against the USSR and various other top secret projects...and there is little indication that they were kept out of the loop regarding what is now the NSA. Very scary implications.

I'm not going to argue for or against JFK- the best theory I've heard so far is that he was killed after threating to dissolve the federal reserve, but honestly, I can wait to find out when the powers that be feel comfortable enough to tell us.

I also denied that we should have allowed Japan and Germany to negotiate a peace by which their governments stayed intact and they kept their conquered territories.


Do you really believe we would let them have their expanded territories? The only way that would have happened would have been had they allowed us to put permanent bases inside and requiring them to support our efforts to contain Stalin and his allies. If that were the case, we would have ignored their more unsavory behavior and refered to them as "our allies against the communists" much as we do when we have friendly despotic governments that offer to kill various people for us in return for protected status and aid packages.

Given that unlikelihood of allowing Japan to keep territory, I still argue against the use of The Bomb. Nuclear weapons were never a sane idea, and given this information, should never have been used.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #166
172. I don't mean to imply that I'm denying
that information gained from Nazi experiments were used in CIA experiments, or that former Nazi intelligence was used in our own clandestine programs. I do, however, deny that the Nazis had absolutely any influence in our policy planning or in our politics. I mean, the best theory one could come up with would be one in which Nazis pushed for MKULTRA and then either mind controlled assassins or actual members of the government. The obvious problem with this theory would be that MKULTRA did not ever lead to successful mind control of that sort.

Of course we wouldn't have let them keep their territories. That is why we refused to give any indication of accepting the peace feelers that Germany and Japan sent out; the only indications of peace Germany gave would have allowed them to keep Austria and Czechoslovakia (as well as keep their government intact)

I believe that your plan would have been completely politically infeasible. The American perception of Germany and Japan in 1945 was not such that they would have gone along with a sudden shift from Great Evil That Threatens Everyone to Stalwart Ally. Moreover, the only way Germany would have gone along with such a humiliation would have been if Hitler were assassinated first; Japan never would have gone along with that.

I believe the only situation in which Japan surrenders its territories are those in which:
1. The bomb is dropped.
2. A sea invasion is successful.
3. The Soviets capture them while America starves Japan into submission.

Of these, I believe (1) is least harmful to human life.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #172
173. clarification
Edited on Wed Oct-10-07 08:45 PM by Hydra
MK-Ultra was indeed successful, as were various projects that were claimed to have not existed and were later admitted to, and admitted that such were highly successful ventures(such as our bioweapons program and area 51). Their spinoffs were even more successful, and while I don't see this is a purely nazi thing, consider it my POV that we looked at what Stalin and Hitler were doing and decided we were impressed and would be doing it ourselves. Still, with Prescot Bush and various sympathizers having not been stomped on firmly enough, it's impossible to rule out how intertwined our gov't was with the nazis.

I wasn't offering the scenario as my "plan." I was simply drawing on other examples of how we allowed other regimes to stay in power that were convenient to us, if not in line with our PR. Given how little sympathy we had for Jews attempting to escape to America before and during the war, it would hardly surprise me if we tolerated such behavior in the name of fighting the communists. Germany offered to surrender with the only condition being that they would surrender to us, rather than to the USSR as well, so I find that particular decision on our part repugnant.

That leads to the other problem...The Atomic Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This article says that we owned the skies, and that their shipping was all but halted. Given that fact, we could have demanded whatever we wanted on threat of more airstrikes. It makes the case that we were afraid of Stalin and his armies...if that was the case, we shouldn't have let him gain so much ground in Europe, and whatever gains we made by dropping the bomb were squandered when China went Red and the Los Alamos worker leaked the bomb to the Soviets.

Even had it been direly necessary, nuclear weapons are a pandoras box we should never have stuck our hands in.
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Didereaux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
103. Japan was a genocidal, murderous, torturer equal to the Nazi's...
Read the transcripts of interviews of survivors of Japanese death camps, look at the photos of the Chinese they did medical experiments on. Look what they did to tens of thousands of Chinese and peoples of Indo-China. IF nothing fucking else you apologist assholes check out what they did to the Americans they captured on Bataan. I had an uncle who survied that thing, but dies several years from the injuries that never ever healed. Rewrite you damn history after all of my generation who knew the men and women in that war are all dead. Then lie your asses off all you want. Take your time and you can make the SS and Gestapo into the German equivalent of the Red Cross and Salvation Army! Then whine whimper and drivel on about the inhuman act of droping a couple bombs that killed a half million of the bastards and probably saved a million American soldiers!



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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #103
109. And when did deliberately killing civilians become acceptable to Americans?
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 06:46 PM by WinkyDink
Was it when we decided we could kill just as many civilians as the Japanese?
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #109
112. When the only other option was killing even more. n/t
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #109
113. No, I think the notion was entertained when Hitler concentrated *his*...
military-industrial-complex in & around civilian populated areas
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #113
115. We didn't drop the Atomic Bomb on Germany. Nor did we bomb the rail-lines to any concentration camps
We DID bomb Dresden, a war-crime.
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/war/dresden1.html
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #115
127. You asked two questions, I answer the first one.
War itself is a crime upon humanity. To drivel atop the wheres & why-fores at such a time after which 10's upon 10's upon 10's upon 10's upon millions are dead as dreams...and scared to this day, is to piss into the very winds of war themselves imo.

The war in Europe was not being fought by the people that manned the death camps. They had their hands busy trying to bury the dead they murdered there.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #115
132. This is an excellent point; America did know of the concentration camps and did nothing ---
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 08:55 PM by defendandprotect
People who escaped did get to the FDR administration -- perhaps even to FDR directly?
But they knew --
What would have been such a bad idea about bombing the tracks/railroads that serviced the concentration camps?

Unfortunately, due to a thousand year Vatican campaign against the Jews + more . . .
"Christian" Europeans and Americans were strongly anti-Jewish ---



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Didereaux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #115
134. you made 3 three misleading statements...
1. We didn't drop the A-Bomb on Germany because it was not fully ready, and two because by even that date Germany was defeated to the point that the only target left would have been Berlin. Several mmonths before it was agreed that Russia should take Berlin. Thirdly there was intel on the underground bunkers, so the 'targets' would escape.

2. Although some information was known about the concentration camps, the full horror was not. Also it was known that or highly suspected that Allied prisoners were being scattered and held at some of them as they were at certain high priority military sites. Bombing the rails would also condemn those in the camps to death by starvation because that was the supply method for goods as well as humans.

3. We did bomb Dresden, and we did bomb Hamburg, in fact we carpet bombed several cities. But that was in compliance with an agreement with Churchill, who insosted, FLATLY insisted that it was too damngerous for the airforces to make pinpoint daylight bombings, and so carpet bombing at night would maintain air superiority and allow for more targets to actually be hit. How that was the reason for the general night bombings. But it is well understood by all that Churchill demanded Dresden and Hamburg to receive an extra dose and that it be done according to a thereory by some military stratigist that you could by dropping incendiary bombs in certain patterns create a 'firestorm' - it worked. Yes, that was egregious and heinous, and it was for revenge, pure un-remorseful revenge. If I were a Brit I would have done so as well. Roosevelts allowing participation in it, is another matter entirely.

Lastly, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the nuclear bombing of the Japanese other than to imply subtly that it was completely racist in origin...that is completely and utterly the basest of bullshit!
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #115
139. Germany
We did not have the atomic bomb available before the unconditional surrender of Germany. Show me the documentation that the SHAEF had identified the rail lines to the Concentration camps in Poland, Czeckoslovakia, Austria or Germany.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #109
123. It was when everybody looked around and realized we were in a new kind of war
where undermining the morale of the civilian population and annihilating the opponent's industrial base was as good a way as any, perhaps the only way, to win.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #103
131. Grreat! So was that worth America becoming Nazified -- ????
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #131
144. That statement, like so many of yours,
simply does not make sense. Please try again, this time using your frontal lobe to "think" about what you are saying.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #144
153. And you think that a personal attack is debate . . . go debate someone else ---
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #153
156. Saying that your statement does not bear any logical relation to the one it is in reply to
is not a personal attack.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
110. As it turns out, Saddam Hussein also tried to work a deal to leave Iraq.
But the vomitous masses in Washington thought war was a much better idea. Oy vey.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #110
119. And, of course, you couldn't have Saddam Hussein out free telling the world the truth ....
of his relationship with the US/CIA . . . .
or the fact that we gave him biological weapons which he used on the Kurds --
while we winked -- !!! See: April Glaspie


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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #119
143. He certainly could have said those things at any point during his reign.
He didn't, because it was politically embarrassing for him as well as for us.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
122. Hogwash.
I'm an historian and my opinion is that you are utterly misinformed.

No better than a freeper believing what he wants to believe to support his world view.

No better than a Holocaust denier.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #122
136. Yeah, that. n/t
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
137. Umm...no.
Conditional peace would have meant allowing Japan to continue to occupy at the very least its colonies: Korea and Formosa. It also would have meant allowing a militarist regime to remain in Japan. Unconditional surrender was the correct policy.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
145. We had to inflate our penis size for the Russians, therefore we *had* to nuke Japan.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #145
146. Or, you know, the fact that the Japanese were not willing to surrender.
That might have been part of it.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #146
163. They weren't "willing" they were BEGGING to surrender ---
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #163
165. For the fifth time now, they wanted a negotiated peace, not a surrender.
They wanted to keep their conquered territories and their military government. That ain't surrender.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #165
169. And, of course, they were in a position to set the terms . . . right?
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #169
171. They believed they were, as they had not yet
Edited on Wed Oct-10-07 07:10 PM by Rhythm and Blue
accepted an unconditional surrender, nor had they offered a peace in which they would return all occupied territory and agree to tear down their governments.

The Germans did not offer a surrender until Germany had been entirely vanquished. The Japanese did not until the second bomb had been dropped.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
149. questions for those questioning the use of the bomb
How do you feel about the non-nuke bombing of tokyo, kobe and other sites in Japan in 1945 which killed more civilians than the a-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Should we not have done that? Would the Japanese have been as close to giving up the fight if we hadn't? How do you propose that we should've defeated Japan? Do you think that we should've been trying to defeat Japan or should we, after Pearl Harbor, simply issued a statement asking the Japanese pretty please don't do that again?

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #149
164. Along the lines of ridiculous questions . .. . how would you feel if the Germans had nuked England
Edited on Wed Oct-10-07 03:54 PM by defendandprotect
rather than simply using bombs???

Whaaaat????

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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #164
167. so are you suggesting that the Germans were nicer than us?
and that if they had a nuke they wouldn't have used it?

Care to elaborate?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #167
170. I'm suggesting that weaponry isn't either moral nor healthy for anyone ---
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #170
174. so, I'm back to the question you didn't answer: should the US have fought Japan
or just done nothing after Pearl Harbor?
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
168. September 2, 1945 was a compromise, and was conditional.
There was a condition, and the condition was more-or-less guaranteed through informal channels: Japan would surrender if the Emperor could maintain his position. The sole compromise in that regard was that he would be "stripped of his divinity," a move which probably made little sense to the Japanese, anyway, but looked like a major concession to the American public.

The Japanese were also trying to use Manchuria as bait for the Russians, offering some or all of that territory to the Russians instead of China, from which Japan took it in the 1930s.

That's hardly negotiating in good faith, and Japan was in no position to bargain at all.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
176. Then why didn't they? They could have put down their weapons at any time. nt
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