Is this a bigoted comment or a fair point?

[cboy4]

"...In our inner cities, you're looking at 65-70 percent of the children born out of wedlock..."

(Brownback during the debate talking about the importance of having a mom and a dad in the household.)

Sorry, but that's exactly what I'd expect to hear from a white christian bigot like Brownback.

I don't care whether the numbers are accurate or inaccurate. Republics like him always have to blame the poor folk and the minorities for every problem in society. And I'm sick of it. :puke:

[TwilightZone]

1. I think it's a matter of intent.

If one of our candidates made that statement and then used it as the basis for explaining what kinds of changes need to be made in our society to help urban areas, it's one thing.

In Brownback's case, he's using it as the basis for the all-important topics of protecting heterosexual marriage and promoting abstinence, as if those are miracle cures to what he sees as the problem.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. In that context, I'd say bigoted.

[slackmaster]

150. I'd like to know what the actual discussion was

Full context would have helped a lot.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

242. Seems pretty obvious.

"The reason the inner city, i.e. black society, is bad is because they don't have strong families."

There's no good reason to play dumb.

[angrycarpenter]

3. fair

the context is the important thing. One piece of data has little meaning. What point was he trying to make?

[porphyrian]

4. While it may be a fair point, contextually it's bigotted. - n/t

[Radical Activist]

5. Facts don't have bigotries.

Its how he interprets and uses those facts that might be bigoted.

[Poll_Blind]

8. Thank you. n/t

PB

[hisownpetard]

37. Cool.

[Bluerthanblue]

288. it is also how the 'facts' are framed and collected-

facts aren't always "facts"-

[sutz12]

6. He's a hick from the midwest, right?

Why would he say anything else?

:shrug:

[amandabeech]

12. Self-delete.

[slackmaster]

21. As a white person born to a middle-class family in the Midwest

Kansas in fact, I think your statement is quite bigoted.

[JuniperLea]

41. Now THAT'S a bigoted comment!

Did you forget a sarcasm tag or something?

[proud2BlibKansan]

192. As a midwestener and a constituent of Sam's

your comment is extremely offensive.

[mark414]

199. i'm a hick from the midwest, and am asking you to ignore the comments above mine

no, that was not a bigoted thing for you to say. for whatever reason, whenever somebody on this board says something completely general, a lot of people take it completely personal.

but you are right. he's a hick from the midwest, and that's most likely what he's expected to say. no two ways about it.

[Totally Committed]

7. So, what's his point?

An overwhelming majority of the "inner city" men and boys (read: those of color) are in jail. When that changes, maybe there'll be whole families there again.

TC

[cboy4]

11. Plus I'm sure he feels black people have too many

kids in general.

[slackmaster]

19. Are you saying that's the only reason for the proliferation of single moms?

I hope not.

[Totally Committed]

170. No, I'm saying it's a factor rarely even considered.

I was almost being sarcastic about it, in fact. I would love to see our next POTUS address the problem of the lopsided jail populations. So, yes, I think it's a factor... the ONLY factor? -- No. Poverty, low wage jobs, lack of hope, and lack of role-models for young men in those communities also are factors.

TC

[slackmaster]

230. Lopsided jail populations largely reflect lopsided demographics of people who commit crimes

Unfortunately, minorities are still more likely to live in poverty, which breeds crime.

The lopsided jail population is a symptom, not the problem.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

254. So you're saying the criminal justice system isn't racist?

And that poor white people are just as likely to go to prison as poor black people?

[slackmaster]

280. No, I did not say that nor have I ever said anything to that effect

Obviously there is racism built in to the justice system, but it is also a fact that poor people are more likely to commit crimes. It is also a fact that minorities are highly represented among the poor.

[renie408]

9. A fair point of what? What IS the point? n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

222. That one-parent families are a contributory factor to juvenile delinquency.

There are all sorts of implicit assumptions, some of which are probably false, but the basic underlying point - that one of the reasons for juvenile urban delinquency is that a high proportion of urban youths - especially but not exclusively black youths - are being brought up by single mothers, and that this makes them more likely to turn to drugs and crime than they would be if they had father-figures, is I think a perfectly valid one that liberals need to face up to, and come up with policies to try and deal with.

[Cameron27]

10. He's into the archaic 'bastard' thing

where out of wedlock is more than a potential economic issue.

[cboy4]

13. OMFG, I can't believe so many people are

agreeing with Senator Brownback, one of the most conservative lawmakers in Washington.

Please. He all but said black people are having too many kids.

[slackmaster]

18. Brownback isn't wrong about everything.

Please. He all but said black people are having too many kids.

No, he all but said too many black people are born to single women and grow up without functional fathers. He's right.

[cboy4]

20. Yea, I'm sure that's exactly what he meant.

:eyes:

[slackmaster]

24. I think my Internet mind-reading skills are better than yours

You are predisposed to attribute evil intent to everything someone of Brownback's political persuasion says.

[cboy4]

30. Yes, he's one of the worst human beings on the face

of the earth.

I know all about him, and he's as foot tapping fundie as they get.

[slackmaster]

36. That doesn't make him wrong about absolutely everything

[Skittles]

208. I'm with cboy

given the benefit of the doubt, I'd include way more doubt for that racist piece of shit brownback

[Totally Committed]

228. Ditto here.

Totally racist.

TC

[Rhythm and Blue]

33. No, he did not.

He said that many inner-city children are born out of wedlock, which is true, and which is detrimental. Acknowledging a problem is not the same as blaming someone for a problem.

The fact that a man who is frequently wrong said it does not render it wrong.

[EFerrari]

52. But the way in which he selectively deploys facts in an argument

does amount to blaming poor people for their poverty, deflecting the reality of this racist society.

I could quote facts to you showing a disproportionate number of black youths in prisons which could also be used to show a deficiency in "inner city" families rather than illustrate, as it does, the institutional racism in our criminal justice system.

[proud2BlibKansan]

198. And a lot of kids in the suburbs are born out of wedlock also

[EFerrari]

42. Yes, he did. You're right. n/t

[JuniperLea]

56. You are assuming that ALL inner city citizens are black

I don't go for the 'born out of wedlock' BS, and plenty of kids grow up just fine without mothers and/or fathers, but he's right about too many kids not having the support of family. These kids need to feel they belong and that they matter. That's how gangs get hold of kids... make them feel like they belong, they are important, and they matter to others.

[EFerrari]

85. The poster isn't assuming that; he's just decoding Brownback. n/t

[JuniperLea]

94. That may be the problem

Too many crystal balls saying something different... and too many decoder rings set on different codes.

[EFerrari]

110. Except it's at this point where we bring our experience to bear,

right? On the speaker and on the group he wants to represent as well. You don't really need a crystal ball to pick up on the way these people move.

[Totally Committed]

171. Nothing as RW as the current results of that poll surprises me anymore on DU.

It's moved to the Right right before our eyes.

TC

[rucky]

174. right.

I'm two minutes slow.

[rucky]

173. Nothing surprises me here anymore. n/t

[Snarkturian Clone]

239. So if Brownback

said "the sky is blue", I'm supposed to say "It's purple motherfucker!!!!"??


There's plenty of shit to rag on brownback about without having to parse the context of his fact mentioning.

[Lerkfish]

14. like most things, examine the source.

and the intent.

[TahitiNut]

15. Other: It's "blame the victims."

Many (if not most) of the unevenly distributed social 'problems' are the result, not the cause, of class warfare and marginalization of 'different' people. People like Brownback remind me of the effete (looking down their noses) bigots of the south who sneered at black kids going barefoot or having holes in their clothes.

[slackmaster]

16. "I don't care whether the numbers are accurate or inaccurate"

Frankly, I think cboy's OP here is more of a bigoted comment than Brownback's statement.

What Brownback said is probably true. How much of a real problem that represents, and what can or should be done about it, are subjects worthy of discussion.

I'm a white agnostic, and I think the proliferation of single-mom families and deadbeat dads is a very serious problem for just about everyone.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

25. Another bigoted statement by cboy

Keep 'em coming!

(BTW did you read the part of my post where I disclosed that I am agnostic?)

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

31. I said I am not, and I have a long history of posts to demonstratate it

I happen to think children should have good fathers.

I have personally known many single-mom families, and observed that the children usually suffer for it.

[cboy4]

34. Well then you should cast your vote for Brownback

if you're such a big fan.

I personally know kids from single-mom families who have not suffered from "it."

So now what?

[slackmaster]

40. I think you screwed the pooch big time in this thread, now you are scrambling to save face

Denying the problem isn't going to help anyone.

[cboy4]

45. No, I think you're supporting a Republican who likes to

use code when referring to the minorities he thinks are the cause of all of our social problems.

[slackmaster]

48. Me saying Brownback's statement was factual and agreeing it's a problem = SUPPORTING him?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The idiotic knee-jerk reading comprension-challenged statements on this site never cease to amuse me.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

66. You're killing me

Please stop, my gut hurts from laughing at your foolish statements.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

76. Let me spell it out just one more time super duper clearly for you

Brownback's statement about the percentage of inner city kids being born to single moms is probably correct. It's a fact. Denying that fact is counterproductive.

Brownback thinks that is a problem. I agree with him, and everyone else who thinks that is a problem.

Brownback's approach to fixing it is to impose HIS religious views on everyone. I disagree with him about that.

[cboy4]

80. Let me tell you something. Brownback doesn't give a

rat's ass about poor people who hope each day is not the day they're going to be gunned down, or the day their electricity is going to be shut off, or the day there's no food for dinner.

He's far, far more concerned about the children who haven't been born.

I don't agree with a syllable that comes out of his bigoted mouth.

[slackmaster]

84. As I said, your bias predisposes you to reject every word he says

Even if he says something neutral, or right.

[renie408]

86. So if he said it was Tuesday, you would disagree with him?

You and Brownback are the same person with different views. You believe what you believe in the same way, even though you believe different things. You attacked Slackmeister in the exact same way a right winger would. "Just admit that you __________." when he never said anything like what you were asking him to agree with. You went batshit because he thinks kids are better off with two parents and so does Brownback. Regardless of the fact that MOST people would say that, of either party.

You aren't helping your 'cause'.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

If he said Tuesday is the reason that black people are the greatest long term threat to America..

then yes. I'd disagree with him.

[hfojvt]

318. because everyone knows that reason is really

Saturday.

[renie408]

351. No, you would disagree about the threat, but not about Tuesday.

You have illustrated the point precisely.

The rate of single parenthood in inner cities 'just is'. Whether or not it is a problem or THE problem or whatever is up for debate. The fact of the statistic is not. Well, actually, it probably is.

I think it is ill advised to attack people for separating the statistic from who quoted it. If single parenthood is an issue which needs addressing because of its effect on economics for inner city families, then no matter WHO brings it up, it needs to be addressed.

I am personally not sure it is the thing I would focus on, however.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

354. Hmm.

"Whether or not it is a problem or THE problem or whatever is up for debate."

Bullshit, the single parenthood rate isn't THE problem, it's a symptom of the problem of the lack of working class jobs. It's bullshit, and it keeps getting spread by every little racist Trent Lott wannabe who wants to wants to blame black people for America's problems.

"then no matter WHO brings it up, it needs to be addressed"

Like I said above, there's no good reason to play dumb. Brownback has no interest in addressing the real problem.

[EFerrari]

57. Framing "the problem" in these terms is bullshit

and coded bullshit, at that.

[slackmaster]

58. So, how do you think the Democratic Party should address that issue?

If indeed we should at all.

(I'm searching for some kind of constructive dialogue here.)

[EFerrari]

78. What is at issue here?

What, in your opinion, is the "problem"?

If Mr. Brownbeck was in fact speaking of black children born out of wedlock, that number has been trending steadily downward every year since 1989. The same can't be said for other demographics.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr55/nvsr55_01.pdf

If he believes childrearing families need a father and a mother, then he's a homophobe (we knew that) and it's a waste of time to address him.

We do know that the Republicans' wholesale privatization (and corruption) of just about every institution in this culture that fosters family life has been a disaster -- from their war on science, including HEALTH science and women's health, their dismantling of our schools with the attendant destruction of the school as a hub of community, to the pillaging of our treasury for their misbegotten adventure in Iraq which has left us unable to effect the most basic repairs to our infrastructure that workiing families depend upon to get through the day.

/punc

[slackmaster]

87. I think children, especially boys, benefit from having a good father figure

Does that automatically make me a homophobe too?

(I advise you to read reply #55 first if you really want to answer that.)

[EFerrari]

88. I think it's important for children to have good, strong clear role models,

men and women, that they can trust and learn from.

[slackmaster]

89. OK, we're not very far apart

I don't care much about biological relationships or marriage, but children need good parents. Two is better than one.

[renie408]

93. Me, too.

I don't think it necessarily has to be another parent. I think strong extended family works, strong community members of character work, a good teacher works.

I don't think that having children out of wedlock is the ultimate problem facing inner city families. I think there are a lot of other factors producing the problems these kids face. They need their communities developed and they need safe places to go after school. They need stronger educations and parenting and relationship counseling. They need options.

[cboy4]

100. Exactly. I agree.

[EFerrari]

123. In my extended family, I had four mothers and five fathers.

It was hell, lol! But I knew beyond a doubt that I was loved and valued and respected. My mom was a single mom and I was born out of wedlock. :)

[renie408]

134. LOL...you definitely had options for role models!! n/t

[NOLALady]

252. My Mom died when I was two.

My Father agreed to turn me over to my Maternal Family. I was also raised by everybody, even the neighbors had a stake in me. I don't think I'm worse as a result of a no (biological) parent household.
Maybe that's why I have a problem with this assumption that communities are disastrous due to single Mothers.

[renie408]

46. No, you aren't. He hasn't said anything that would even remotely

lead you to believe is s a fundamentalist Christian conservative. He thinks that a child has a better chance in a two parent home than in a single parent home. Considering that there is some evidence for this (as long as at least one parent has the time to devote attention to the children), he has a point.

Slow down some. Don't immediately leap to rip somebody's throat out because they are not completely on board with you. Plus, there is a lot of room between not 100% agreeing with you and being a fundamentalist Christian conservative.

[Quantess]

35. That's probably what most people would say,

more or less. (Notice, I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree). But that's a very moderate response.

(PS, Slackmaster: your 1st comment is probably what got the OP ticked off)

[TheUniverse]

17. If its a fact, its a fact.

I dont know if its true or not, but if it is a true statistic, how can statistics be bigotted?

[cboy4]

27. It's bigotted because it's used to further the fundie

Republican cause. That's why.

[slackmaster]

29. What do you think the Democratic position on the issue should be?

How can that same fact be used to further our cause?

Get constructive, already.

:eyes:

[SOS]

244. There's a factor missing which Democrats could address.

If a single woman has a couple of kids and is receiving any type of assistance, the State essentially prohibits her from marrying.

If she marries a partner who earns minimum wage, all of her benfits for herself and her children are terminated when she marries. (at least here in New York).

The family is now considered "too wealthy" to receive HRA assistance.

The Democrats should move to get rid of this family-destroying lunacy. Allow the woman and her children to keep the benefits, even if she does marry an employed man.

You can't raise a family of 4 on minimum wage. It's time to change these vicious laws.

[renie408]

32. "That's why." ?? Gee, that's compelling and all...

No, it isn't bigoted because it's used to further the fundie Republican cause. It's bigoted because it appears to presume that there is a flaw amongst 'inner city' (ie. 'black') people that they are having children out of wedlock. As a stand alone fact, it's just a fact.

[JVS]

So is oxygen when every member of that cause breathes each day.

Thus oxygen is bigotted

[Posteritatis]

215. Clearly. It's all about fluorine for me from now on! (nt)

[Rhythm and Blue]

23. It's a fact, and it's a sad one. nt

[slackmaster]

26. Best response yet

Thank you.

[renie408]

38. I dunno.

IS it sad? I can't decide. I think it is presumptuous to assume that single parent inner city families are 'sad' or less...well, 'good' on their face than two parent homes. What about the kid of an upwardly mobile white suburban family that has two working parents who are rarely at home? Is that better?

I dunno. I think it is hard to say "Single parent home = bad, Two parent home = ideal." So much depends on extended family, etc. I can see that the ODDS are that a single parent inner city home is not ideal are probably pretty good. But I don't think the main problem is that the kids are born out of wedlock.

[slackmaster]

44. Nobody is saying "Single parent home = bad, Two parent home = ideal."

But I don't think the main problem is that the kids are born out of wedlock.

I absolutely agree - But children generally benefit from having a functional father in addition to a functional mother.

[renie408]

50. And I agree with your point.

I am sort of 'thinking out loud', I guess. I was thinking that a lot of homes where children are born out of wedlock have extended families which participate in the child's life. I think that could probably help pick up the slack for a missing parent. Kids do need some kind of good role model from both sexes, with that I agree.

[hack89]

69. The economic argument is compelling to me

Single parenthood is a leading predictor of a life of poverty. It simply reduces or eliminates so many education and economic options.

The economic argument for two parents is frequently overlooked as the conversation drifts towards moral issues.

[tammywammy]

43. Agreed. n/t

[cboy4]

If the dad who beats the shit out of the mom is finally

out of the house, it's not sad.

It's a blessing.

[Rhythm and Blue]

49. So you're suggesting that a significant proportion of African-American fathers are abusive?

[cboy4]

53. Yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting.

:eyes:

Why would I be upset about the bigoted comment and then go on to suggest something bigoted myself.

I was simply responding to your post that's states it's sad. And it's not always sad.

[Rhythm and Blue]

54. Otherwise your point is completely moot.

[slackmaster]

55. Yes, definitely

But the kids will also suffer for lack of a father unless their mother finds a decent one (or another caring woman) to fill in.

[Yupster]

210. This is one of my most favorite arguments

It goes like this.

Is it better for a third baseman to hit .197 or .342?

Answer.

Well if the power hitting third baseman rapes teenagers between innings in the lockerroom, then the .197 hitter is better.

[EFerrari]

39. Maybe Brownbeck should revisit his position on gay marriage

if he thinks children shouldn't be born out of wedlock. :)

[JuniperLea]

47. Fair point, if the point is to point at something that needs our attention

If it's something we should concentrate on for change, and I think it very well is.

Bigoted because "WE" put the inner-city citizens in that position... to slam them because they are exactly what we made of them is pretty stupid.

[slackmaster]

51. Perhaps you could suggest a good position for Democrats to take on it

Please!

[JuniperLea]

59. Pretty much what I already said

It's the policies of our government that created the inner-cities, and the situations in which those citizens find themselves.

We can't "spread the wealth" as far as income goes, but we sure as hell can as far as education goes.

Everything comes down to education. Educate! Educate! Educate! These poor kids don't know they are capable of doing anything else for themselves, except to accept the status quo! They need a chance to bloom, to change their surroundings. They have been short-changed, and it's time to stop it!

[slackmaster]

60. Thanks, and I agree with you about the value of education

And I am willing to pay for my fair share of whatever it takes to a good one available to all children.

:toast:

[JuniperLea]

62. Me too!

:toast:

[cboy4]

63. Save some of your fair share to donate to the

Brownback campaign!

[slackmaster]

68. When you don't have a leg to stand on in a discussion

A personal attack always works.

[cboy4]

71. How is that a personal attack? I don't care who you

support for president.

[slackmaster]

73. What a steaming pile of horse manure

Nice try.

[renie408]

72. I'll give it a shot...

I think that some good points have been made in several posts on this thread. I think the Democratic approach to most things should be front end. Instead of trying to 'fix' single parent homes or 'fix' the children of said homes, work from the front end.

And the way to work from the front end is...EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION.

Make a push to raise educational standards in inner city schools so that those children have more options. Offer more scholarships. Offer more after school programs. Offer parenting and relationship classes. Open community centers.

That's the way I would do it if I was made dictator.


I would like to add..."And don't get discouraged and give up when it doesn't work over night. The problems didn't occur over night and they won't be solved that quickly either."

[Swamp Rat]

61. Since Brownback said it I am voting "BIGOTED."

Because I know he is a racist SOB.

[JuniperLea]

64. You could be right, Swampy...

Just like the Devil himself... mix truth with lies to keep people confused.

[Swamp Rat]

81. A blue-eyed devil

whispering sweet nothings into the ears of tired old folks while plotting his theocratic dominion.

I can see his head spinning around right now.

[TK421]

102. But....but I have blue eyes...does that make me a minion of the devil?

:D I sure hope so! Why, me and the Devil ( I call him Sate, short for Satan ) will be sharing a condo on the Lake of Fire...it has a really nice view, too! Just to sit there with a cup of coffee and watch thousands upon thousands of souls falling down and burning away..screaming in agony. That's pretty cool to me! :thumbsup:

[Swamp Rat]

155. LOL!

Some devils have weird, googly eyes and green skin. :D

[slackmaster]

67. I have no doubt that his agenda in saying it was to promote his religious views

As a solution to a serious social problem.

Juniperx suggests our focus should be on making education available to those kids. I agree.

[Swamp Rat]

75. His religious views include slavery, sexual repression (for others), and genocide of Arabs

What do we really know about that fucking monster, slackmaster? I can only guess based on what I've heard sprew forth from his maw, so I will stick with my image of him: I believe he is the type of man who would proclaim his christianity while crucifying Jesus.

[slackmaster]

77. I know enough about Brownback to be very sure I won't be voting for him

:shrug:

[Swamp Rat]

82. Good enough for me

:thumbsup:

[cboy4]

83. Exactly Swamp

I can't believe there are people who agree with him. :puke:

[H2O Man]

74. Re: the Moynihan report n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

79. Sorry. There's only one correct answer here since it was Brownback who said it.

Bigoted.

[mudesi]

90. FAIR POINT IS WINNING???????

What has happened to this site?

[slackmaster]

91. Maybe it developed the capacity to analyze a statement objectively

At least roughly 2/3 of us have.

[Rhythm and Blue]

92. A majority of DUers are able to separate the point from the man who said it? nt

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rhythm and Blue]

111. The difference would be that what Hitler said was actually false. nt

[EFerrari]

172. What Hitler said sounded so reasonable that he had supporters

all around the world.

[rucky]

175. What is the point, anyways?

Is being born out of wedlock a problem, assuming you weren't born in the Victorian Era?

[slackmaster]

369. The "out of wedlock" aspect isn't the real issue

It's the single parent trying to do more than most people really can do well.

[tammywammy]

95. Because it's a fact

The fact is right. And I greatly dislike Brownback. Some people can differentiate between the two.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rhythm and Blue]

130. Did you just suggest that 2/3s of DUers are trolls?

How bizarre.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

307. We're not all knee-jerk reactionists unable to separate statistics and intent?

Personally, I'm surprised by the (relative) rationality of this poll result.

[noiretextatique]

96. fair point...if you're speaking in code language

it has a broad appeal, as evidenced by your poll and some of the repsonses here.
why aren't poor, urban people of color more like middle-class, white mid-westerners? :eyes:
if only they were...that would solve all everything. :puke:

[slackmaster]

98. Whoopee! The obligatory Race Card has been played!

All Hail teh Race Card!

[noiretextatique]

104. the race card.,..what is this thread about?

no race card played by this bigot? of course it was, and many of you obediantly rush to his defense.

[slackmaster]

105. He didn't specify any race in his statement

But YOU did.

BTW - I'm not in any way defending any of Brownback's political positions.

[noiretextatique]

113. PLEASE...that's a part of the code

implying, without saying.

[EFerrari]

119. That's why we call it code.

It's just like the Iranian president saying "if" about the Holocaust as a way to deny it without denying it outright.

"Inner city" is most likely "black" to the "law and order" crowd.

[slackmaster]

127. OK, but that doesn't diminish the objective truth of the statement

I think some of us are unable to separate the concrete fact from the intent of the statement. Take your analogy a step farther - Could anyone really disagree that more historical study of the Holocaust would be good? I wouldn't disagree with that statement, and I definitely agree that Ahmadinejad is a piece of shit. (And so is Brownback, but THIS isn't a very productive avenue of attacking him.)

[noiretextatique]

135. his statement is that two-parent families are the panacea

for a host of ills. is that "objective" or "true"?

[slackmaster]

137. I didn't read that in the OP

Where did you find it?

[EFerrari]

I still would like to see his source, lol.

But you're right. It isn't his assertion of fact but the steaming pile it makes when you put it all together.

I watched a report on the Jena Six, an interview with a guy on the school board. He looked like the grandpa down the street that is nice to the kids on Hallowe'en. Just like that.

And what he said, word by word, sounded reasonable. But the whole thing together was a horrendous justification of injustice at that school. And I'm sure his buddies understood what he said in a different way than I did, because they know that kind of coded language better than I do.

[tammywammy]

99. see post 74 n/t

[sniffa]

118. aLL i see is ignored

i take it i'm not missing much.

[tammywammy]

142. It' says Re: the Moynihan report n/t

[cboy4]

107. It's total code language. You're absolutely correct.

:puke:

[noiretextatique]

109. of course it is

republicans constanly play the race card, and they don't just manipulate republicans with it. fuck this asshole. if he'd made some stupid comment about labor unions or anything else RACE-neutral, i soubt he'd have a bunch of defenders.

[slackmaster]

136. You did a great disservice by presenting Brownback's remark out of context

You could have book-ended it with what question he was responding to, and the rest of his reply.

But I think you intentionally set this up as flame-bait.

[sniffa]

145. yes. yes it is.

but where was race mentioned? :shrug:


























:eyes:

[shugah]

398. noiretblu!! voice of reason!

y'know, when i read this and other threads of this particular type, i always wish you would weigh in. you are spot-on - and i wish that DU were still a place that anyone could learn some new things, display that they really have the open-mind that those of us on the so-called left are supposed to have, and be willing to really listen to what someone else says - maybe get some new insight, some enlightenment - and remember that just because we believe a thing, doesn't make it so.

threads like this make me want to start counter-threads with subjects like: SINGLE MOMMIES ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING THAT IS WRONG IN THE WORLD! CHECK OUT WHITE MEN - PARTICULARLY THE WEALTHY ONES!!!!!! but, we know where that would go, huh?

and, i say this, of course, as a middle class, white, mid-westerner ;-) who - *gasp* - gave birth to a child out of wedlock - unlike any of the minority women i have had the pleasure of knowing in my life. (slice-of-life vignettes seem to be acceptable form for the pseudo-debate on this thread, so i'm claiming credibility based on my personal experience ;-) )

i think you can make small differences, or actually big differences on a small scale here noiretblu - even as frustrating as it must be for you. you, and a couple of other DUers from the old days had a real and meaningful impact on my understanding of racism.

thanks for your thoughts on this thread.

noiretblu :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[TK421]

97. This is a fact....not bigoted at all

then again, we are talking about our inner cities. Regardless of the circumstances involved there, it's true, as much as I hate to say it...

[noiretextatique]

108. what is a THE FACT?

is a drug-addicted, abusive "father" better than no father at all? according to this idiot, the answer would be yes. is that THE FACT you're talking about?

[Rhythm and Blue]

112. Are you suggesting that a significant proportion of African-American men are abusive drug addicts?

If you are not, your point is moot.

[noiretextatique]

114. as someone else told me, this guy didn't mention race

in his comment. why would you assume i am referring to african american men...hmmmm?
my comment was about the simplistic belief that any two parents are somehow better than a decent one.

[Rhythm and Blue]

117. If this discussion is not concerning any minorities,

then there is no bigotry involved whatsoever.

[noiretextatique]

121. right

just another race-neutral discussion is good old race-neutral america :patriot:

[Karenina]

138. Naaa... DU!

:hi:

[noiretextatique]

143. i am going home soon

:hi: no computer at home. i predict this one will be locked shortly anyhoo :loveya:

[TK421]

147. Good....I'm sick of what I'm reading anyway, and it's boring the fuck out of me

see ya'

[noiretextatique]

335. sick and tired

me too. sick and tired of american hypocrisy on this (and other) issues. "like fish swimming in water"...stick that in your google.

[cboy4]

152. "good old race-neutral america"

:spray:

[cboy4]

120. Yea noiretblu, didn't you know only black people

live in the ghetto.

Nope. No white people, no Hispanic people, no Asian people.

Just black folks having all them babies out of wedlock

[Rhythm and Blue]

125. So do you then believe that Brownback was not referring to minorities?

Then where do your claims of bigotry come from?

[noiretextatique]

133. i think that's a joke eom

[noiretextatique]

132. brownback knows urban is a code word

that's why he used it. there are certainly poor white people in this country, but the areas where they lived aren't always called ghettos.

[TK421]

128. Thank you...thank you VERY MUCH!!!!!!!

What the FLYING FUCK does this have to do with race? :mad:

[TK421]

124. Umm..no, actually the statistics of inner cities in regards to this matter are higher

:shrug: I used to live in Philadelphia, and have seen this every day. I'm not saying anything about anything! Perhaps you are being a bit reactionary? Perhaps?

[noiretextatique]

141. i am simply challenging a stupid, racist myth

that somehow all the ills of racism and poverty will magically be solved if poor, black people suddenly start acting like white, middle-class people. and furthermore, and i challenging the equally simplistic notion that a man in a home is somehow the magic elixir for solving the problems of urban communtities and families.

[TK421]

144. WTF I'm not suggesting ANY of that shit?

Sweet Christ, did you read ANY of my response? At all?

[TK421]

162. I'm not saying ANYTHING like that, Jesus Christ! What channel are you tuned in to?

:wtf:

[angstlessk]

367. WHEN YOU FUCKING PUT 1/2 BLACK MALES IN PRISON FOR DRUG

ABUSE..YOU ELIMINATE THEM FROM WORKING...FOREVER...IT IS RACIST

[TK421]

140. Yeah, sounds like you took a little more than was expected out of my comment

I didn't mean to sound offensive or anything like that!

[noiretextatique]

336. not your comment...brownback's

which is the topic of this thread.

[sniffa]

106. i'd say i'm shocked by the poLL resuLts

but this is DU, not some progressive board.

i'm waiting for brownback to point out that the majority of criminaLs are bLack since they they're incarcerated at a greater proportionaL rate.

[EFerrari]

115. I decided not to post that because it's only Tuesday.

:rofl:

[cboy4]

116. LOL Ouch!

:loveya:

[slackmaster]

122. I think I understand the big disconnect here

If you focus only on Brownback's "out of wedlock" clause rather than the objective fact that many children are born to women with no partner of any kind, it looks like solely a plea for "traditional family values" as a solution to the real social problem of children growing up poor and without effective role models.

Those of us who chose the "fair point" option are focusing on the objective fact that he presented.

The poll is really flawed because there is no middle ground choice between "fair point" and "bigoted comment", but the two are not mutually exclusive.

[renie408]

126. You could have chosen 'other'. I did.

Mostly because I didn't think it made a 'fair point' and because the quote (as edited) wasn't a bigoted statement.

[slackmaster]

129. Yes, I suppose I could have done that

But on balance it seemed to me like mostly a fair statement, without any context presented.

[cboy4]

131. Yea, you're probably right.

----------------------------->http://www.brownback.com/s/SupportBrownback/MakeaContribution/tabid/104/Default.aspx

[slackmaster]

139. There you go again with the personal attack, cboy4

Attempt at guilt by association based on nothing.

Your're the one who posted the shitty poll without providing proper background information.

[cboy4]

148. I'm just providing a link so you can learn more about

Senator Brownback's deep concern for the inner city.

What's wrong with that?

[slackmaster]

153. How about providing context for the statement you quoted in the OP?

That would be a lot more constructive.

But as I said, I think your purpose here was to stir up flames. Nice job!

[cboy4]

160. Brownback stirred up flames when he made a bigoted

comment...one that you're apparently not able to decode.

Let me teach you something slackmaster. If a Republican says it, there should be a million bells and whistles going off in your head.

[slackmaster]

178. My mom was a Republican for most of her adult life

She quit about 10 years ago. Her parents were both Republicans all of their lives.

Those are three good, honest, honorable people you just insulted with a broad-brush smear.

But another form of dishonesty is presenting information out of context. That is what you have done here.

[cboy4]

188. Well if you don't like to hear people criticize and insult

Republicans (which I don't apologize for doing), perhaps DU isn't quite right for you slackmaster.

[slackmaster]

229. Let me teach you something, cboy4

Not all Republicans are bad people. Most of them are actually good people. You are blind to your own prejudicial thinking. A truly open-minded person judges people by their actions, not by what group they belong to. In many parts of the country, like small towns in the Midwest, kids are brought up immersed in established, traditionally Republican populations. In your school, your church, your boy scout troop, your place of employment, you are surrounded by people who have always been Republicans. They may disagree on some matters with those who control their party at the moment, but so do thoughtful Democrats. Few people actually change from one major party to the other in their lifetimes. Most who quit their original party become independents, Greens, or Libertarians.

When I decide who gets my votes, party affiliation comes way down in the stack. It gets about the same priority as race and gender.

I won't vote for Sam Brownback because I disagree with his views on many, many things. The fact that about 2/3 of inner city children are born to single-parent families, that they are likely to remain trapped in a cycle of poverty all their lives, and live without a functional adult male role model, is not one of those reasons. That's just a fact. I disagree with how Brownback would address the problem, but that doesn't make him wrong about the reality of the problem.

You need to study up on logic. The paraphrased or synthetic context you provided for Brownback's remark, i.e. "(Brownback during the debate talking about the importance of having a mom and a dad in the household.)", caused me and dozens of other people to pick an answer in your silly poll, that you attacked with premeditiation.

If you were being honest, you would simply have posted a scathing rant about Brownback's views. Instead, you elected to set a trap for your fellow DUers, the majority who think a child is generally better off with two functional parents, one of each gender; so you could lob sadistic personal attacks at them. I think it is also worth pointing out one more time that you have dodged several polite requests for you to provide the actual, contemporaneous context for the quote you attribute to Brownback. In fact you haven't even provided a source to verify that he actually said what you claim.

That all sounds very dishonest to me.

[cboy4]

248. You're calling the people who voted for this adminstration

and the people who love how we bombed the hell out of a country that never threatened us and want to keep the war going, and who are bigots and homophobes "actually good people?"

I cannot believe I am actually having this discussion with someone on DEMOCRATIC Underground.

Republicans are repulsive. I realize I work with them and live near them. I can be polite, yet think they're scum bags, which I do.

As for your whining about the quote, it's posted down thread.

You are unreal.

[slackmaster]

266. Be careful wielding that broad brush

You might poke your eye out.

As for your whining about the quote, it's posted down thread.

Link, please?

You are unreal.

Personal attack.

[cboy4]

273. I have to do everything for you, ha slackmaster?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2008567&mesg_id=2013152

[slackmaster]

275. If you had simply included it in the OP you wouldn't have such a massive problem here

You did it to yourself.

[tammywammy]

281. If you had the entire quote, in context

Why didn't you put it in the OP?

[cboy4]

285. I was typing in real time tammy. There was no transcript

at that time.

And please, like the entire text makes any difference.

He's as much a bigot today as he was yesterday.

[tammywammy]

289. I agree he's still a bigot

But just this: "...In our inner cities, you're looking at 65-70 percent of the children born out of wedlock..." isn't a bigoted statement.

A lot of children are born to a single mother out of wedlock. I think that is something we do need to look at. Esp considering the poverty rates in the urban centers. And children do benefit overall from a two parent household, 2 people of different or the same sex.

[cboy4]

290. I disagree. When that statement is coming out of the

mouth of a rich, white male who is a fundie and a bigot....

That's a bigoted statement.

And it immediately caught my attention the second he said it.

[divinecommands]

296. Well said, slackmaster!

Does anyone else find cboy's prejudice to be rather ironic?

[cboy4]

303. You have 41 posts and can already tell that I'm

prejudiced?

And you agree with Slackmaster's pro-Republican meme.

Interesting, if not suspicious.

[slackmaster]

364. Keep this up and you'll have 41 "Deleted message" posts in this thread alone

:rofl:

[divinecommands]

366. Yes, I am Slackmaster, wearing a different hat!! :-D

I don't think Slackmaster was promoting a "pro-Republican meme," although if you think characterizing his view in that way is to offer an argument against it, you're sadly mistaken.

prejudice (n.)
c.1290, from O.Fr. prejudice (13c.), from M.L. prejudicium "injustice," from L. præjudicium "prior judgment," from præ- "before" + judicium "judgment," from judex (gen. judicis) "judge." The notion is of "preconceived opinion;" the verb meaning "to affect or fill with prejudice" is from 1610.

From the Online Etymology Dictionary. Now, in what way do I think you're prejudging (notice, I said you had a prejudice, not that you're "prejudiced.") Your argument, such that it is, seems to be that no matter what a Republican says, he's making a racist statement -- that, indeed, no Republican could say what Brownback said, without having malicious, racist intent.

"If a Republican says it, there should be a million bells and whistles going off in your head."

"Republicans are repulsive. I realize I work with them and live near them." They're all repulsive? Every last one of 'em? Even Slackmaster's parents? Do you really know enough to make such generalizations?

Such is the nature of your prejudice: you've already decided, with apparently absolute certainty, that Republicans are wicked people, incapable of stating a fact without contaminating it with their evil. You've pre-judged an entire class of people, and a substantial portion of the American population.

I also suggest you read about the Poisoning the Well fallacy: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html

[cboy4]

387. Oh there's no question Republics are wicked people.

And yes, they're evil. So true.

I'm glad you pasted the definition of prejudice, because yup, that sounds like Senator Brownback alright.

He judged the city of Detroit and the inner cities of America with his little speech. I doubt Senator Brownback has ever been to Detroit, let alone an inner city.

Sorry, but I don't come to DU to defend Republics.

And if you find yourself defending them too fiercely, we'll be sure to throw you a nice going away party because I don't suspect you'll be lasting here very long.

[divinecommands]

399. Who is defending Republicans?

I'm not defending Republicans, I'm disagreeing with YOU. Those aren't one in the same thing.

What I AM defending is a rather simple principle:

In the vast majority of cases, when someone makes a claim with which we disagree, to demonstrate the falsity of the claim we have to do more than just cite the (R) after the name of the person making it.

It's that simple. Sometimes, taking that principle seriously means I'll find areas in which I AGREE with Republicans. Not about everything, but about SOME thing. And you know, that's not necessarily such a bad thing.

It's the stuff politics is made of.

[noiretextatique]

345. a child is better off

living a society that does not discriminate against her/him because of race, socio-economic status, who his parents are and aren't, and what zip code s/her happened to be born in.
fine...good parents are great, and ideal one might say. however, in reality, good jobs, healthcare, education, etc., also help all families to raise their children. and as often as this meme the two-parent superiority meme is repeated, i know (and know of) a lot of unproductive, dysfunctional people who were raised by two parents.

coindentally, parhaps, brownback's way of thinking tends to ignore the macro (social) and focus on the micro (personal). both are important, and there are clearly pathologies in both american society's response to racial/socioeconomic/gender inequities, and in cultural responses to personal reponsibility, as bill cosby, among others, has been speaking about recently.

[slackmaster]

365. An unbiased society and a decent family are not mutually exclusive

I believe that is the general state of things in nice countries like Sweden, the Netherlands, Norway, etc. Perhaps even Canada!

:scared:

And in case I haven't made this clear enough, I abhor Brownback's desire to impose HIS religion or values on everyone.

[sniffa]

146. so many ignores

i'm sometimes tempted to Log out to see what i'm missing... but not now.

[cboy4]

151. Yes, it's probably for the best bud.

;)

[EFerrari]

156. Not only not mutually exclusive but a favorite strategy of racists

who, at bottom, are also cowards.

My brother in law used to call me "our little linguist" because I am bilingual, English and Spanish. And this was the way he called me "wetback" or "greaser" or whatever term he was thinking. My husband's side of the family all knew it and were mortified every time he did it. I was only 19 at the time I married into that family.

But, I've learned since that bigotry doesn't usually come dressed up in sheets and the ugly words. It's usually your brother in law calling you his "little" something. Or, someone like Brownback framing facts, piling them up in an order that his target audience fully understands. fwiw.

[Nimrod2005]

149. I heard that and thought it was not appropriate...

[slackmaster]

154. Could you fill us in on the full context in which he said it?

That might change some peoples' minds.

The OP didn't give us much to work on.

[EFerrari]

176. Here's some links to his usual patter:

His press release:
http://brownback.senate.gov/pressapp/record.cfm?id=247005

The Washington Post responds:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2007/09/sam_brownback_and_gay_marriage.html


This looks like a recap of his stump speech:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec07/brownback_09-20.html

[slackmaster]

179. I'm not asking about his usual patter - I've heard and read enough of that

I want to know the full context of the statement quoted in the OP.

[EFerrari]

180. Then that falls into the category of not bringing your experience to bear.

Because it's not like he's going to suddenly unveil a policy reincarnation on stage.

Edit: If he had, it would be news and it's not.

[bridgit]

157. i'm sick of Brownback on GP, but to discount the problems faced by humanity...

inner city/outer city, gentrified, rural, McMansion, condo, rent, homeless, wherever; is to look right past the issue

[EFerrari]

159. And, in a way, that's Brownback's job and the OP's point.

Blame the people, not the misadministration.

[bridgit]

163. My sense is that it would have not been more palatable to have had...

a democrat quote such flat statistics so flatly either, which is why I'm sick of Brownback...on GP, can't stand the guy :puke:

the OP also states less interest as to "care(s) whether the numbers are accurate or inaccurate"...sadly, the numbers trend toward accuracy yet here we are talking past the issue which was my point...and *that* is the republican gift that keeps on giving...imo :(

[EFerrari]

164. See my #78 for a link on trends.

And you're right. They are spinning right over the needs of our people. :(

[bridgit]

167. nice charts...

met my husband at a research firm http://www.westat.com administered prolly too many samples, they always position their matters as though the data is for policy makers and decisions that will enhance the lives of Americans...sadly, duuphs such as Brownback/Cheney/Bush et al, have little interest in such things

[EFerrari]

177. They don't need to care, they have the Heritage Foundation.

:sarcasm:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

158. 90 - 99% of heroin addicts drank milk as children.

"There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

The statistics that Brownback used, whether "accurate" or not, implies that minorities in inner cities are having children "illegally". The further implications are that they are immoral, uncaring, and irresponsible.

It's akin to Reagan's infamous "welfare queens" implication that black women with children were living in luxury by churning out children.

It is thinly veiled demagoguery.

[EFerrari]

161. WHO is doing MY heroin?

lol

Sometimes I think that most DUers have had the good fortune not to need to know this in their personal lives, and are too decent to imagine anyone can promote bigotry in this transparent way.

/oops

[Karenina]

165. 167 replies, -0- recs.

You smoked 'em out, cboy4!!!

[noamnety]

166. "Out of Wedlock" phrasing = moral problems.

Particularly, the morals of those in the inner cities are being called into question.

Nonbigoted phrasing = 65-70 percent of inner city children live in poverty, often in single family homes that can't afford health care or day care on a single income.

The issue SHOULD be poverty, but then they'd have to actually address that issue rather than just imply again and again that poor people bring it on themselves. Instead, he put the focus on marriage. Those evil inner city people aren't doing families the right way.

[EFerrari]

168. "Evil Inner City People"

Isn't that a hit by Carlos Santana? :)

[Fleshdancer]

169. I voted "bigoted" because of this....

In a country where half of all marriages end in divorce, the idea that only kids born out of wedlock lack additional parental support is cherry picking the point completely.

[TK421]

183. Agreed! But to throw race into this is pointless!

senseless, really


edited to add: I know WHITE people who go through this shit, too!!!! Do they cry out victimization? FUCK NO!!!! They look for a way out of it as best they can!!!



GODDAMN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Fleshdancer]

187. clarification please.....

I haven't read the entire thread so I'm unclear as to whether you're suggesting I'm throwing race into this or if your point was directed at the direction of the thread.

As for your edited comment...I don't know any single parent who has the time to cry out victimization. :shrug:

[TK421]

213. No, not your comment at all

and it's not just a matter of single parents being victimized...race was brought into this, and it simply had no place in it

[noamnety]

212. This comment can be misread easily

"I know WHITE people who go through this shit, too!!!! Do they cry out victimization? FUCK NO!!!! They look for a way out of it as best they can!!!"

I know you probably meant everyone looks for a way out of poverty as best they can, but the way you put your sentences together, it looks kind of like you were saying white people look for a way out of poverty, as opposed to black people, who don't look for a way out of it. (cause they are too busy crying out about victimization to better themselves?)

[TK421]

214. I think you're trying to read into what I've posted a little too much

what I meant ( and all I meant since my first response ) was I didn't understand what race had to do with this issue...that's it...that's all

I never claimed that an African American person wouldn't look for a way out of it ( is this what you meant? I'm not sure ) I'm just tired of the race issue being brought up constantly in cases where I ( personally ) don't feel it is relevant. :shrug:

[Lerkfish]

181. i find this thread disturbing, but I would point out that the word "out of wedlock" is

a bigoted conception in and of itself. Probably one of the older ones: that children from unmarried situations are bastards and evil.

so there's two bigoted attitudes going on.

DU has really turned into an interesting place lately. and I don't mean that in a good way.

[EFerrari]

182. Look at the poll results.

:shrug:

[Lerkfish]

207. yup, that's kinda what I'm talking about.

disturbing.

[AlCzervik]

184. really, what about the divorce rate in regular old america? plenty of kids

in the "Heartland" with single parent homes too.

[TK421]

185. And how many of those are African-American?

why the fuck does race have to be brought into just about every FUCKING debate on this board!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



CHRIST YOU PEOPLE ARE MAKING ME FUCKING INSANE!!!!!!!! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


edited to add: it's not what YOU said, Chimpsaresmarter...I'm responding to some other posts

[AlCzervik]

186. what? I didn't bring race in to it, i pointed out the fact that there is a 50% divorce

rate in this country and this asshole singles out only inner city single mothers as if being a single parent is exclusive to just them.

[TK421]

189. no, no,no...read the bottom of my post!

:o sorry, I edited it, you probably didn't see it at the time :D

[AlCzervik]

190. ok gotcha.

[EFerrari]

191. Because the Republican Party fuels itself on bigotry of every stripe.

That's why. It's not about this board, it's about this culture.

And if you are "fucking insane" I hope you manage to get help.

[Name removed]

193. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

194. I rest my case.

[Name removed]

195. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

196. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

197. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sniffa]

218. woah

what did i miss when i went to bed? Look at the deLetes. :wow:

[EFerrari]

258. Just someone who didn't like me very much. n/t

[Name removed]

200. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jmm]

201. I didn't watch the debate but

Here are some more of his thoughts on the subject

Sam Brownback and Gay Marriage

http://mobile.washingtonpost.com/detail.jsp?key=96221&rc=sb_el&p=0

"In countries that have redefined marriage, where they've said, 'OK, it's not just a man and a woman, it can be two men, two women,' the marriage rates in those countries have plummeted to where you have counties now in northern Europe where 80 percent of the first-born children are born out of wedlock... And currently in this country -- currently -- we're at 36 percent of our children born out of wedlock." -- Sen. Sam Brownback, Republican TV debate, September 5, 2007.The Facts Republican candidate for President Sam Brownback posits a strong correlation between the introduction of civil unions and gay marriages and the rise in children being born out of wedlock. His argument appears to rely on two premises: (1) the marriage rate has plummeted in countries that have "redefined" marriage; (2) the declining marriage rate has in turn resulted in a dramatic rise in the number of children born out of wedlock.

.....


There's a ton of info out there about his thoughts on the subject but basically he's grasping at straws to come up with data that will back up his personal beliefs on what a family should be.

[bridgit]

204. Well that's what I'm saying, Brownback is an ass talking out his ass...

Data can be skewed every which-a-way, it's a numbers game, and even we here dance around what we all know; or, more hopefully, politely sense O8) Brownback to have said wasn't even that "poor = evil = immoral = bad" so much as he was in that ham-handed republican way saying, in RNC/Rove/Bush code: that un-wedded, fatherless, inner city children are the ill fated products of "a big ole black thang = drain on the entitlements programs" that they all want to see wither on the vine and *that* is what is behind it all imo, i don't care if it's access to health care for kids, bringing green/farmers markets into urban areas, fresh start/ECE, universal health care, you name it they want america to END but for they and their donor/fan base of no-bid crony war profiteers believe it!!

get with the program DU, the enemy is right there and not just in the form of Sam Brownback, but the whole charade standing on any republican stage

[tkmorris]

202. cboy4, I think you are misreading what DU'ers are saying here

Please understand, we all know that Brownback is a bigot. We also know that if he said those words he did it in order to justify some ridiculous racist position. No one is really trying to claim otherwise.

The reason you are seeing the responses to your poll come out the way they have is because, and attend me carefully here, the words between the quotes in your OP are not by themselves bigoted. The only thing contestable about them is the accuracy of the percentage given, and you explicitly state that you don't care about that.

Again, please remember that we ALL know that Brownback is as big a racist nitwit as you are likely to find anywhere, and I am certain he planted those words inside of a larger, racist, screed, but those words taken alone are just a statement of fact (outside of the numerical accuracy of course).

[EFerrari]

205. Most statements by bigots aren't overt.

:shrug:

[tkmorris]

209. Of course they aren't.

And if the limited quote given in the OP was expanded both forward and backward about 10 words or so I am certain that the context would reveal Brownback's inherent bigotry. I was merely trying to explain the poll results, which at first take appear to support Brownback. They don't.

If anything I think the poll results reveal that DU'ers are sticklers for details. I'm rather proud of that actually.

[EFerrari]

211. Really? You're proud of that?!

I'd tend to admire more the active collection of fact and context.

A balancing act that was only a short search away.

[tkmorris]

217. But that is the point

The poll was based on the words alone NOT THE CONTEXT IN WHICH THEY WERE SPOKEN. Taken literally, and eliminating bias towards the speaker, you are left without anything that is remotely bigoted. Now, as I stated before, I am certain that within any possible context that Brownback would have used these words no doubt the argument he made which included this statement is bigoted. The words given in the OP however are not, not by themselves. And yes, I am proud that there are some DU'ers that are able to make the distinction.

If the jackass said "Hello", can I say that is bigotry? Or does some standard actually have to be met for me to make the claim?

[EFerrari]

219. The Op clearly frames the context.

And up thread, I posted links to a press release where Brownback says the same thing, as well as the WaHo's rebuttal to his baloney. If you google "Brownback out of wedlock", you can find the material you need to make a reasonable assessment if you are uncomfortable doing that on the basis of the OP.

Turns out he's said this before and that cboy4 is on the nose in his identification of Brownback's speech act.

It's not a matter of being "biased" against Brownback. It's a matter of knowing him.

[slackmaster]

233. Actually, the OP provides an artificial context for the alleged quote

Note the parenthetical sentence apparently fabricated by cboy4:

(Brownback during the debate talking about the importance of having a mom and a dad in the household.)

I took it for granted that was an accurate, comprehensive description of the actual context of Brownback's supposed quote (which I note is also not supported in the OP by any verifiable source).

[EFerrari]

260. That's untrue. I have littered this thread with links

that show Brownback saying the same or similar things. Have you bothered to read any of them? No matter how often you accuse cboy4 of "fabricating", he didn't and your repetition of that false charge doesn't make it true.

/ack

[slackmaster]

265. That's very kind of you, but not what I have asked for

:nuke:

[cboy4]

206. Actually tkmorris, I understand what you're saying, and

I should have set up the question differently than I did.

That's obvious now.

On the other hand, having read all of the responses, I believe there are some here who actually do not have a problem with what Brownback is saying, and that's why I asked the question.

The DUers who voted "yes" were able to decode what he was saying.

Other DUers wanted to argue the merits of his statement, a statement I feel was a false premise since I don't believe for a second he cares about anything that goes on in the inner city.

But thank you for your clarification. :)

[HughMoran]

203. It's NEITHER bigoted OR a fair point

It's just a typical tactic used by Republicans to show "city people - bad, y'all country folk - good". Just playing to their paranoid chicken-shit cowardly base that is scared of the city.

[sampsonblk]

216. Fair point. This discussion takes us down a dark path

Bigots make their living making fair points for unfair reasons.

What we are left with is to decide who should make this fair point, and under what circumstances. That's a bad business.

[cboy4]

220. Wow. A whopping 62 percent say they think the

right wing christian conservative extremist, who is also a racist and a homophobe, made a fair comment.

Fortunately this is a secret ballot so I won't know who I need to be disappointed with.

[Rhythm and Blue]

257. So if Brownback were to say that it were raining out,

on a day that it was raining out, would I have to declare that a bigoted statement too?

[cboy4]

261. Well I'm certain he would blame the blacks and the gays

for causing the rain.

But sure, you can tie bigotry to everything he says, because he's a racist.

Now Rhythm and Blue, it's a free country and you can vote for Senator Brownback if you want.

I'm sure he appreciates you defending him.

[Rhythm and Blue]

267. So you're agreeing that if Brownback says it's raining, than that's a bigoted comment.

Because he hates blacks and gays. Are you aware of the difference between a comment made by a bigot and a bigoted comment?

[cboy4]

268. I do. However in the case of Senator Brownback,

there is no difference.

[Rhythm and Blue]

271. Then you don't understand the difference between

a bigoted statement and a statement made by a bigot.

[EFerrari]

301. Out of curiosity, do you have any direct experience with bigotry?

[Rhythm and Blue]

343. Yes, on many occasions. Why?

[EFerrari]

350. I'm asking because it took me a while to learn how to decode

racism in my culture. That's all.

[Rhythm and Blue]

356. Here's how I see it.

This is a harmless letter: L
You can take four of those, and make a swastika. White supremacists frequently use the letter L, repeated four times, and do so to make a rather hateful point. If you see a skinhead spray-painting the letter L three times, each time rotated 90 degrees, and stemming from the same point, you know what he's up to, and what he's going to do next. Hell, if you see him do the first L, you've got a pretty good idea of what he's up to.

That doesn't make the letter L bigoted, and that doesn't mean that a skinhead who writes the letter L has made a bigoted statement, though it might make you wary.

[EFerrari]

359. That's right. The letter isn't bigoted. But, it can be used to forward bigotry.

And that's where we get hung up. We (yeah, I'm assuming a lot) want to give people the benefit of a doubt. I sure do, and I expect most DUers do. We want to think the best of other people. We're weird that way. :)

But once you understand how these people move, there's no mistaking their human drag. They look like your high school quarterback and they sound oh, so reasonable. They don't use the ugly words and they look just like your neighbor -- no horns sticking out of their heads.

And it is this cover that has allowed this hatred to survive in our country for all these long years.

[Rhythm and Blue]

360. Yeah, I think the "fair pointers" and "bigoted statementers"

really don't have that much of a disagreement here; we're just choosing to emphasize different halves of the same argument. Two thirds are emphasizing "The letter isn't bigoted," the other third is emphasizing "it is used to forward bigotry."

[Marrah_G]

221. It depends on how the information is being used

A fact is not bigotted in itself. Facts are used to promote bigoted ideas.

Kids are better off in two parent families. As a single mother I can understand why. My life is chaos and there is never enough money or time or hands.

If that fact is used to try and strengthen ALL kinds of families then great. It could easily be used in a negative way as well.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

223. its manipulation of data. so yes, he is stating a statistic and technically not lying

but he is also making inferences from this statistic which may or may not be supported in fact.

[EFerrari]

224. I posted a link to a 2004 census in #78. Looks like he's

misrepresenting the facts.

This morning I'm thinking some Heritage Foundation type came up with this "issue" for Brownback because he gets points with his disgusting base for being against gay marriage, minorities and sex all at the same time.

[zanne]

225. If you agree with Sen. Brownback, then you agree...

that Gays and Lesbians should not have the opportunity to adopt. ("A mom and dad"..)

[cboy4]

226. Well we have a lot of Brownback supporters in this

thread. You should ask some of them.

[zanne]

227. Sorry, cboy4. Answered wrong thread posting.

I meant to answer to the OP.:dunce:

[slackmaster]

237. That's a false dilemma, zanne

I think that same-sex couples should be able to adopt. I also think that in general kids are better off with two functional adult parents, one of each gender.

[zanne]

250. Considering that 50% of all marriages end in divorce,

I think that's just a nice dream. Maybe it's true that alot of inner-city kids are from out-of-wedlock moms, but just as many kids in suburbia are left with only one parent later on.

[slackmaster]

264. Red Herring

n/t

[zanne]

269. Oh come on, Slackmaster!

Agree with me about something just once, will ya?

[slackmaster]

278. I've agreed with you many times in the past, and I'm sure I will in the future

Don't sweat it, my opinion isn't that important.

[truebrit71]

231. So if Barack said that it would be biogoted also?

I don't think so...and Obama has made similar points for quite a while now...

[cboy4]

234. I'm not familiar with the context in which Barack is

saying so, so I don't want to comment on that.

I do know, however, that Barack does not appear to be a bigot, unlike Senator Brownback who is certainly at the very least a white supremacist sympathizer, in my opinion.

[truebrit71]

241. Read his latest book...he says the same thing as the alleged "white supremacist"...

...you are outraged over...

[EFerrari]

246. Obama blames gay marriage for out of wedlock births?

I'd like to see a source for that. Here's one for Mr. Brownback's position:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2007/09/sam_brownback_and_gay_marriage.html

[truebrit71]

256. Please show me where in the OP Brownback said that...in the OP...not elsewhere...

...because THAT is what I was replying to...

Don't put words in my mouth.....

[EFerrari]

262. Fair enough. What I've found reading about about this disgusting man

is that he uses marriage as a sort of umbrella for his bigotry. It's efficient. He uses it on gays and on other minorities. I guess he gets a ton of mileage out of it.

[truebrit71]

277. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he is a bigot as well as a homophobe..

...but that statement doesn't count as bigotry..

[EFerrari]

286. It sure does. And, it's in the fine old tradition of American bigotry

where the real sin is in the inference that the listeners are led to draw. The good Senator's base hears that statement in a very different way than you or I do. And that's why it's so insidious -- it goes right under the radar for most sane people.

A sane person, lol, hears him saying that families are at risk in the inner city as evidenced by children born out of wedlock who, a sane person can infer, will have a tough time of it, right?

His base hears something completely different. I think they hear: This country is going to hell because those black people have babies outside of marriage and you will foot the bill, not to mention, gay marriage is ruining the sanctity of marriage. Look at this number and be outraged with me: 60%! I'm against all of that just like you. Vote for me!

And then, when you push on what he said, it turns out that number is wrong to boot. :shrug:

[cboy4]

293. Alright, you're my spokeswoman the rest of the way

How can anyone disagree with what you just wrote?

You said it perfectly.

[EFerrari]

294. Well, I am looking for work.

But, I don't come cheap. lol

[truebrit71]

312. Except it's wrong...there's nothing bigotted in what he said...

"In our inner cities, you're looking at 65-70 percent of the children born out of wedlock..."

What is bigotted about that?

No mention of colour, ethnicity, religion, sexual preference or taste in soda pop....

It is a fairly straight forward statement of fact.

And that SAME fact has been made by Barack Obama.

Is he a bigot too?

[EFerrari]

313. Nothing if you overlook the code, the misrepresentation of stats

and the context, and his long history of bigotry.

And, I'd like to see a source for Obama's statements because I don't know much about him.

[tammywammy]

315. "and the context"

And the context is what was lacking in the OP.

But just the statement "In our inner cities, you're looking at 65-70 percent of the children born out of wedlock..." in and of itself isn't bigoted.

Read Obama's Audacity of Hope, he talks about out of wedlock births to single mothers.

[truebrit71]

317. Thank you!!! Finally!

Good grief that was like pulling teeth!!

[EFerrari]

319. The OP did sketch the context. And if you bother to look

you can easily find that Brownback has said the same and similar things before when he's talking to his bigoted base.

Are you just not able to do searches?

If Obama is pandering to this crap, I won't defend him.

[tammywammy]

320. Oh yes I have read the whole thread

But it was a long time before the whole quote was even provided. Then people are being flamed for saying that the basic statement "In our inner cities, you're looking at 65-70 percent of the children born out of wedlock..." isn't bigoted.

And I didn't do a search on Brownback in general, b/c I already know enough about him to know I don't like him. But when an OP makes a post, they should provide the whole quote and context, not just a snipped and then flame away.

Just because it came out of a bigot's mouth, doesn't make it bigoted.

And on Obama, as you said "Are you just not able to do searches?" Read what he says before jumping to conclusions.

[EFerrari]

324. I have jumped to no conclusions regarding Obama, thanks.

And, the very fact that you are accepting the 65% statistic without verifying is telling. As is the fact that you expect to be fed facts rather than do your own homework. :shrug:

[tammywammy]

327. Way to jump to conclusions again

I said I've read the thread, which means I read your post #78 as well.

[EFerrari]

330. You read my post so that means, what, you've done your own research?

:shrug:

[tammywammy]

332. Actually I did do my own research

Thankyouverymuch.

Do you want me to provide you with what all I looked at last night? I mean it might take me a while to track it down again, but I can post it to you.

[EFerrari]

338. Sure. I'd appreciate that.

[tammywammy]

341. dupe

[tammywammy]

342. Here you go

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/000778.html
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8LHMFDO0&show_article=1
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/unmarry.htm
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4865449
http://www.urban.org/publications/311128.html
http://www.brookings.edu/views/testimony/sawhill/19990629.htm
http://www.cis.org/articles/2007/back507.html


This is some, there was more.

[EFerrari]

346. Thanks for taking the trouble. And, let's look at these links.

The first one doesn't address the issue at all.

The second one refutes Brownback's numbers.

The third one shows that out of wedlock births in the black pop has been decreasing steadily since 1989.

The fourth link is a misstatement of fact.

The fifth link isn't about inner city single mothers.

The sixth link overlooks the fact that teen pregnancies are declining.

The last link is overtly racist: "High rates of illegitimacy among natives, particularly African Americans, has been a concern for several decades."

[tammywammy]

348. Do you think I have no critical thinking skills?

I don't need you to interpret what I read for me.

[EFerrari]

349. I've said nothing about your skill level but merely read the links

you provided in support of your position.

[truebrit71]

323. The statement, as quoted, by itself is NOT bigoted.

Simple fact.

Spin however much you like, but you are wrong.

[EFerrari]

326. Neither was the Iranians President's statement

"Why do the Palestinian people have to pay for a crime committed in Germany."

This isn't "spin". This is looking at the bigger picture and bringing available information and experience to bear. We call that logic.

[truebrit71]

328. We call aportioning bigotry to a statement of fact STUPIDITY.

.

[EFerrari]

331. Last time: That was a misstatement of fact.

And apportioning stupidity to me doesn't change that.

And, I'm still waiting to hear what your stake is in this discussion.

[truebrit71]

334. The absolute numbers may be off but the underlying truth isn't, is it now?

Mmmmm steak!!!

[EFerrari]

339. What underlying truth would that be?

[truebrit71]

344. Massive numbers of kids being born out of wedlock or without fathers..

...in the inner cities...

[EFerrari]

347. But, when you look at credible reports, that isn't happening. n/t

[truebrit71]

353. Bullshit. Look at the numbers Obama quotes himself.

Geez...get off it already...:eyes:

[EFerrari]

355. Why do you keep dragging Obama into this discussion?

And no, I won't "get off it". I have this aversion for bigotry in all forms.

And dragging Obama into this discussion is a classic and unlovely red herring.

[truebrit71]

363. Why? To continue to illustrate that the OP is 100% incorrect in their assertion that the statement..

..is bigoted.

You are the one that decided to pick this particular hand grenade up and run with it, I am the one pointing out that the hand grenade is live...

Obama and Brownback have said the same thing. One is a bigot, one isn't. The particular, specific thing they said is NOT bigoted.

I have made that point repeatedly to you to no avail, so I must conclude that your subborn refusal to accept publicly that you are wrong means that it is pointless to reply to any more of your posts in this thread.

Fine.

[EFerrari]

371. I agree. If you are so tone deaf to American bigotry, there's no point. n/t

[truebrit71]

373. Obama said the same thing? Is he a bigot too?

Why don't you answer that question?

[EFerrari]

375. Because this thread is not about Obama. n/t

[truebrit71]

376. Answer the question. Obama said the same thing. You say it is bigoted. Therefore Obama is a bigot...

...too...

No?

[EFerrari]

377. Sorry, I don't generally allow people to take me off topic.

If you have a hardon for Obama, why not start your own thread?

[truebrit71]

378. Dude...YOU are the one that INSISTS that what Brownbcak said was bigoted...

...I pointed out that someone else (Obama) has said THE SAME THING and now I'm taking you off topic?

Whatever...:eyes:

[EFerrari]

379. That would be dudette.

And yes, Obama has nothing to do with this.

I've posted many links to Brownback's bigoted statements. If you can read English, you have the ability to realize that.

WhatEVER.

[truebrit71]

380. Dudette....I AM English, and there is NOTHING in the OP about ANY of his other statements...

...and you, dudette, would understand THAT if YOU understood English.

Sam Brownback = bigot

Everything coming out of his mouth = not bigoted.

Try logic. It helps.

Really.

[EFerrari]

381. Try using the fundaments of logic.

Google him and out of wedlock.

Sheesh, have you even read this thread?

Never mind. I really don't want to know. You deniers are exhausting and counter productive.

[truebrit71]

382. The statement in the OP is NOT bigoted. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Or just wilfully stupid.

It doesn't matter WHO said it, the statement ISN'T BIGOTED!

Jesus Christ could say it, Satan could say it, that doesn't make the STATEMENT bigoted.

God, how can you POSSIBLY be this dense?

[EFerrari]

383. Maybe you should mail the Regents of the University of California

AND PBK and ask them to rescind my honors.

:rofl:

Yes, in that context the statement was bigoted. And very much a part of the GOP strategy, of their usual appeal to bigotry.

[truebrit71]

404. The OP said nothing about context...but nice attempt to move the goal posts...

..did you get the honors with your intellectual dishonesty, or was that an extra fee?

[truebrit71]

316. Read Obama's book. He makes the same point. I don't think he is a bigot.

I see no "code", and his long history of bigotry, does NOT make the statement you quoted bigoted.

The STATEMENT is not bigoted. The ASSHOLE that made it my very well be a bigot, but it doesn't make the STATEMENT bigoted.

By YOUR logic if he said "Good morning everyone" that TOO would be a bigoted statement...

[EFerrari]

321. I'm beginning to think that DU just doesn't get how racists pass

in this culture.

They usually don't use the "n" word or march in sheets in public.

They sound reasonable on the surface and they sound just like this @sshole.

Not to mention, the "STATEMENT" has no life of its own. It is a speech act made in a particular context by a particular speaker to a particular audience.

If you can't hear it, that may be a good thing. lol

[truebrit71]

325. The STATEMENT ITSELF IS NOT BIGOTED.

The context may have been bigoted (the OP has been changed to ADD context after the thread pointed out the obvious) and the person saying it may be a bigot, but the STATEMENT isn't bigoted.

OBAMA HAS SAID THE SAME THING.

IS HE A BIGOT TOO?

ANSWER THAT QUESTION PLEASE.

[EFerrari]

329. What is your stake in this?

Words aren't bigoted, obviously. But all you have to do is a simple search to find that this man uses the English language to promote his bigotry.

And, this is the third time I ask you to provide a source for Obama's statement. :shrug:

[truebrit71]

333. My stake in this? The use of logic and grey matter...

...And for the THIRD time I have told you to go read his book...

[EFerrari]

337. If Senator Obama's opinion is part of his platform

there is no need for me to invest in a book. There should be plenty of material on the net.

If you are truly interested in using grey matter, I assume you are familiar with the concept of speech acts and their contexts which go far beyond the literal definitions of words strung in a row.

:)

[tammywammy]

340. ...

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/family/

[EFerrari]

255. More: Brownback’s Mucaca Moment

Brownback’s Mucaca Moment
Monday, July 23rd, 2007

Brownback walking awaySam Brownback may be able to woo some evangelical Republicans, but he still has some work to do when it comes to the Asian American community, saying with an accent to one in the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee, “No raise money, no get bonus.”

Is this being blown out of proportion? Karen Narasaki of the National Asian Pacific American Legal Consortium didn’t think so. After the remark, she told reporters, “It’s only day three of the hearings, yet they have already begun to degenerate into stereotyping and demeaning imitations. What can we expect next week? Senator Brownback squinting his eyes and faking buckteeth?”

http://ktracy.com/?p=216

(I think I have to stop looking this stuff up because it's nauseating.)

[ecstatic]

232. Regarding the repub debate w Tavis Smiley, I agreed with whoever said the conditions came about

due to the way the welfare system was first implemented: It rewarded fatherless households, while making the mother totally dependent on the monthly check (punished women who tried to work by taking away the help completely). This is where I part ways with a lot of liberals because I have seen the effect of this up close and personal. Welfare is needed in this society, but the way it was done in the past created a lot of problems.

To answer the question--yes, it is a fair point as long as the WHY of it is explained at the same time and it's not just put out there as a put down.

[cboy4]

236. Riiiight. Which is my point. It was only "put out there as

a put down" because we know that's the way evil people like him operate.

He doesn't give a crap whether kids in the inner cities have a two parent household. Are you kidding me!? LOL

[npincus]

235. not buying his stats at all... sounds like BS

[slackmaster]

238. I'm no longer even buying the alleged Brownback quote

cboy4 at the very least took some liberties in his description of its context.

[cboy4]

243. Oh now you're using code to accuse me of lying.

Here ya go since you were too lazy to look it up yourself

And notice how your candidate associates all the problems with the inner cities.

Because of course, there are no drug addicts in white suburbia, and there are no single parents outside of the inner city.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071009/NEWS02/71009073

BROWNBACK: The breakdown of the family is our biggest long-term problem we have. You've got 36 percent of the children born out of wedlock in Detroit.

BARTIROMO: Greatest economic threat?

BROWNBACK: Yes, on a long-term basis, because if you don't start children -- and you can raise a good child in a single-parent family. You can do that. But we do know, by the broad numbers, that the best place is between a mom and a dad.

In our inner cities, you're looking at 65, 70 percent of the children born out of wedlock. Your best way to solve your education, your crime rate problems, your drug problems is to get more children in that stable environment.

It's a tough issue. This is a tough issue. But long term, I think that's our biggest problem.

[EFerrari]

249. Here's a Salon article: Who's afraid of the big bad gay marriage?

that features Brownback.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/06/06/gay_marriage/index_np.html

[slackmaster]

272. "by the broad numbers, that the best place is between a mom and a dad"

I really don't see how anyone with half a brain could honestly disagree with that statement.

Or how anyone with half a brain could say anyone who agrees with that statement is necessarily a Brownback supporter.

[cboy4]

283. Well Slackmaster, that's NOT what he said. He

started ranting and raving about Detroit.

Quick, where do all the negroes live in poverty and shoot each other. Oh that's right Detroit. I'll mention Detroit in a negative way.

And then he starts complaining that the family unit is falling apart because there are too many baby daddy runnin around the inner city.

That's the problem I have.

He is a total BIGOT.

[slackmaster]

298. I posted a direct quote from the link you provided

:rofl:

[cboy4]

300. Yea, you posted the least offensive words from that

block of text I posted, because you want your candidate to sound like a nice man.

But in fact, your candidate lost his temper and started insulting black people in Detroit and minorities in the inner cities.

Something you've yet to address. Your silence speaks volumes slackmaster.

[slackmaster]

306. Referring to him as "your candidate" is another personal attack

I've repeatedly stated that I would not vote for Brownback under any circumstances.

You are being dishonest, intentionally misrepresenting my position, and obviously attempting to smear me.

BTW now twice as many people have expressed disagreement with your view as agreement (111 to 55). How does that feel?

[cboy4]

311. I'd rather try to talk you out of supporting a terrible

candidate for president (Brownback) rather than look at the score.

[slackmaster]

361. Since I have never said I support Brownback, you are just trying to smear me

That's inappropriate and dishonest.

[cboy4]

368. Inappropriate and dishonest...................

.......much like your candidate.

[slackmaster]

370. You've never made any effort to determine who my candidate actually is

And your statements continue to be dishonest.

[cboy4]

374. Well if I read from the press release you issued today,

you stated you may vote Republican (which violates DU rules).

And you support Senator Brownback's verbal attacks on Detroit (a city that happens to be predominately black) and his bashing of the people he knows nothing about who live in the inner city. Like he's some damn expert.

Your choice seems clear to me. Ask around.

[slackmaster]

386. No, I have never stated that I might vote Republican

Particularly in the 2008 US Presidential election.

And your misrepresentation of, no, make that your ongoing series of repeated lies about what I have posted actually is a violation of DU rules.

But beating you over the head about it is more fun than alerting, so here I am.

[cboy4]

388. Well Slackmaster....this is what you said in your

press release:

"Not all Republicans are bad people. Most of them are actually good people. You are blind to your own prejudicial thinking. A truly open-minded person judges people by their actions, not by what group they belong to.

When I decide who gets my votes, party affiliation comes way down in the stack."


I don't think Skinner would be pleased to hear you say that you aren't committed to the Democrats (as crappy as they are right now)

This isn't Party Affiliation comes way down in the stack Underground, Slackmaster.

It's Democratic Underground.

Don't you think you should be spending more of your time working to defeat the Republicans than cheer them on?

[slackmaster]

390. I've posted the exact same thing numerous times

I'm quite sure Skinner has read it.

Here's the deal: I almost always vote for Democrats because they best fit with my views on things that matter to me most. When I don't, I occasionally vote for an independent or third-party candidate.

I have on rare occasions voted for a Republican in a situation where I knew the Democratic candidate was a crook.

Context is everything, cboy4. We are talking about the US Presidential election of 2008 in this thread. I never said I would consider voting for a Republican in this thread or anywhere else on DU.

I usually vote for Democrats because usually the Democratic candidate is the best for the job. The only situation in which I would vote for a Democrat because of his or her party affiliation would be if all other factors were exactly equal. Party affiliation would be a tie-breaker for me.

Mindless party loyalty is laziness.

None of that violates the DU rules. Lying about what I have actually said, accusing me of being a supporter of Sam Brownback in particular, definitely does violate the rules.

[cboy4]

389. And slackmaster, when you edit a post to sneak in

information to make the other person seem misinformed, this is what's customary:

On edit: Particularly in the 2008 US Presidential election

It's the honest thing to do Slackmaster, so that everyone knows what information has changed in a post. Senator Brownback would approve of your weaselly maneuvers.

[slackmaster]

391. As if you haven't edited any of your posts for clarity

:eyes:

You're doing just fine making yourself look misinformed.

[cboy4]

392. Slackmaster, I didn't say you can't edit your posts

for clarity.

Have you heard of the term full disclosure?

If one is a Republican, you HATE full disclosure.

But here at DU, when we edit posts, that's what a majority of us strive for.

[slackmaster]

393. I've been very candid about my voting record and views on DU for a long time

I can't really say the same for you.

[cboy4]

394. Well there's one thing you can say buddy.....I don't

vote for Republicans. Ever.

[slackmaster]

395. Because your mind is closed

:hi:

[cboy4]

397. Yes it is, to all Republicans.

You have to be in the crowd somewhere, right slackmaster?

[slackmaster]

400. Repeating a lie doesn't make it any more true

But feel free to keep making an ass of yourself while you get clobbered in your own poll.

[EFerrari]

247. No, he didn't. Google Brownback out of wedlock. This is part

of this idiot's stump speech.

[cboy4]

253. Sfexpat2000, make sure you read slackmaster's

pro-Republican press release.

It brought a little tear to my eye. :eyes: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2008567&mesg_id=2012631


edit....typo

[slackmaster]

270. More dishonesty from cboy4

Shameful.

[gollygee]

240. He must be a huge supporter of affirmative action

so that people struggling with the inherent inequity in our society have a chance to improve their conditions. Right?

So what actions is he taking to improve the lives of African Americans and others living in inner city areas? Strengthening affirmative action? Improving funding for public education? Creation of a national health care plan? He's obviously very concerned so I'll be looking forward to the good work he'll do in response to his epiphany.

[Terran]

245. Other

If it's accurate, it's got to be "fair". But how do you define "inner city"? And somehow, I doubt very much that it's accurate.

[Phillycat]

251. Fair point.

It always annoys me when the other side says something rational, because most of the time they're just spouting blathering nonsense, but in this case, he's correct. :shrug:

[EFerrari]

259. Are you sure? Can you find those stats because I looked and

I couldn't. On the other hand, I found a disgusting pile of Brownback's foot in mouth moments.

[slackmaster]

274. Brownback's position on evolution is more than enough reason for me to oppose him

But he's right about this one, in general terms.

[EFerrari]

284. Actually, you've been shown repeatedly that he's wrong. n/t

[slackmaster]

297. No, many people have expressed opinions that disagree with his

That's not proof in any sense.

[EFerrari]

299. Google is your friend. You have the ability and the means

to verify or to disprove. I sure learned a lot about this guy from this thread and this discussion.

[slackmaster]

308. I know more than enough about Sam Brownback already

The fact that he is an evolution denier puts him out in the corn field as far as I am concerned.

[Orsino]

263. Keep fucking, people.

It drives the wingnuts crazy.

[book_worm]

279. and keep giving birth to children that some of these people clearly can't support?

Who will grow up in poverty and if statistics are correct many will spend time in prison? There's got to be a better answer than "just keep fucking"--government has to give better opportunities to poor people, but many poor people, regardless of color also have to begin to help themselves, too.

[EFerrari]

282. How many poor people do you know that don't help themselves?

:wtf:

[Bluerthanblue]

287. word

:hi:

many of the hardest working people of this nation are 'poor'-

in terms of financial 'wealth'.

thanks again Sfex

[EFerrari]

292. Most of us learn pretty early that if we don't help ourselves, we're screwn.

Hi there, Blue! :hi:

[book_worm]

291. I'm talking about making sure children aren't running the streets at all hours

of the night and in school. I don't live in the most exclusive part of town myself and am certainly not well to do and I see these sorts of things. One major problem in the inner cities is drop out rates and truancy. I'm not the only one who says these things. While I guess his comments are controversial, Bill Cosby has spoken out for a long time about this sort of thing. But if you all think the solution is to "keep on fucking" because it drives the right wing nuts then that's fine with me.

[EFerrari]

295. The drop out rate is not the fault of children born out of wedlock

nor is it their parents' fault, for that matter. Our school system has been under attack for years, not to mention, it was never really desegregated.

[Gormy Cuss]

314. Who the hell here is advocating "keep on fucking?" as a solution?

I live near a very exclusive part of town and the teens aren't running the streets at all hours, they're driving them. They're also getting drunk and high as often as possible and vandalizing just for the hell of it. None of them drop out of school because their parents have the fall back of putting them in private schools for well heeled delinquents. If these little darlings get arrested for possession they plead out to a fancy drug rehab program. Many of them are living with divorced single parents. Yet their parents keep on fucking other adults. Where is their personal responsibility?

[cboy4]

322. Excellent post!

:thumbsup:

[NOLALady]

385. I also live near some of them.

I call them the "entitlement group". They'd give the ghetto kids a run the money.

[EFerrari]

276. Rolling Stone: God's Senator

God's Senator
Who would Jesus vote for? Meet Sam Brownback

JEFF SHARLETPosted Jan 25, 2006 1:09 PM

Nobody in this little church just off Times Square in Manhattan thinks of themselves as political. They're spiritual -- actors and athletes and pretty young things who believe that every word of the Bible is inerrant dictation from God. They look down from the balcony of the Morning Star, swaying and smiling at the screen that tells them how to sing along. Nail-pierced hands, a wounded side. This is love, this is love! But on this evening in January, politics and all its worldly machinations have entered their church. Sitting in the darkness of the front row is Sam Brownback, the Republican senator from Kansas. And hunched over on the stage in a red leather chair is an old man named Harald Bredesen, who has come to anoint Brownback as the Christian right's next candidate for president.

Over the last six decades, Bredesen has prayed with so many presidents and prime ministers and kings that he can barely remember their names. He's the spiritual father of Pat Robertson, the man behind the preacher's vast media empire. He was one of three pastors who laid hands on Ronald Reagan in 1970 and heard the Pasadena Prophecy: the moment when God told Reagan that he would one day occupy the White House. And he recently dispatched one of his proteges to remind George W. Bush of the divine will -- and evangelical power -- behind his presidency.

Tonight, Bredesen has come to breathe that power into Brownback's presidential campaign. After little more than a decade in Washington, Brownback has managed to position himself at the very center of the Christian conservative uprising that is transforming American politics. Just six years ago, winning the evangelical vote required only a veneer of bland normalcy, nothing more than George Bush's vague assurance that Jesus was his favorite philosopher. Now, Brownback seeks something far more radical: not faith-based politics but faith in place of politics. In his dream America, the one he believes both the Bible and the Constitution promise, the state will simply wither away. In its place will be a country so suffused with God and the free market that the social fabric of the last hundred years -- schools, Social Security, welfare -- will be privatized or simply done away with. There will be no abortions; sex will be confined to heterosexual marriage. Men will lead families, mothers will tend children, and big business and the church will take care of all.


http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/9178374/gods_senator

[slackmaster]

305. Do you actually think anyone on DU needs more reasons not to vote for Sam Brownback?

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

310. I think that most DUers like having as much information under their belt

as they can get.

[slackmaster]

362. I'm in this thread solely for entertainment

Frankly I think researching Brownback is a waste of time, but whatever blows your skirt up.

[EFerrari]

372. And that would make you a sexist dilettante.

Congrats!

[freestyle]

302. Without discussing the economics of marriage, it's bigoted.

Although the statistic is more or less true, it tells you absolutely nothing about the economic situations that militate against marriage. Conservative often trumpet the news that married couples have higher incomes, as if marriage alone is a solution to poverty. The reality is that the economic stability comes before the marriage.

Without a discussion of education, employment, and life chances after incarceration, especially among Black men, we can talk until we are blue in the face about out of wedlock births, and not change a thing. Also, this needs to lead to a discussion of parental support, and the way the economy has destroyed the support that used to be available from the extended family. No successful single parent, or couple, does it by themselves.

The real shame is that we as a nation have decided that children don't matter, unless their parents are rich, white, straight, and Christian. When conservatives get on a kick about out of wedlock births, it is to bash people not like them. If they wanted to help single parents, they would support children's health insurance, head start, affordable day care, after school programs, and family supporting wages. But, they don't, because they really don't cate. That is a fair point.

[EFerrari]

309. "No successful single parent, or couple, does it by themselves. "

So true.

The only parents in my building raising children are a gay couple. And, judging from the activity I see around their condo, they have a lot of support from the community. They certainly have it in our neighborhood. I know my husband and I couldn't have done it on our own as a really young working class couple.

Wtf is it about this culture that doesn't recognize the basic necessity of community? It's just baffling to me.

Brownback is just playing on another set of fears and his authoritarian base eats it with a spoon. Maybe if you feel you and your nuclear family are on your own and isolated, you fall for that?

Do the Republics have ANYTHING to offer besides fear?

[WritingIsMyReligion]

304. Purely reading that sentence--it's probably accurate.

I'm sure in context Brownback had some sleazy "BLACK PPLS R TEH SUXXORZ!11!" mentality going on, but that doesn't lessen the accuracy of that pure soundbite.

[TrogL]

352. We had a local politician start that shit

My wife had been asked to serve on a number of committees with a certain politician, then was at a 'town hall' style meeting at which the same politician started in about single-parent families. My wife (was formerly a single parent) got upset and went off on a rant. When the politician realized who it was, she turned 14 shades of purple and started stammering.

[KamaAina]

357. Even more sexist than racist

if he'd been able to work turkey basters into the conversation, he could've had the trifecta. :eyes:

The phrase "out of wedlock" was and is the object of much derision from me and my (single since I was 4) Mom. It is usually uttered with a "clanging jail cell door" sound" after 'out'. :-)

[NorthernSpy]

358. why don't we also racialize the discussion of predominantly white social problems, like pedophilia?

We don't. Not beyond a quick mention of where the "average profile" molester might blend in in society.

Merely pleading the black case keeps the focus and the scrutiny where the racists (including the well-meaning, liberal variety) have always wanted it: on blacks themselves. It seems as though the unspoken question at the end of so many articles is: Blacks: yes or no? Keep 'em, or toss 'em?

This is a population that is permanently put on the spot and under the microscope.

I think it's time for a new strategy. Given what we now know about how bias actually works, instead of trying to relieve the stigma forced on blackness, perhaps it would make more sense to stigmatize whiteness equally. I'll see your carjacker, and raise you a kiddie-fucker. Stigmatize everyone. Take a bite out of that smug arrogance that cboy4 was probably reacting to.

[EFerrari]

384. Because it doen't play well to the average Republic voter.

It's not so much that they need those voters but that they need some cover for their election theft. :shrug:

[jpgray]

396. It's a fact. Once you -argue- something Bell Curve style using it, -then- it's bigotry

[LWolf]

401. Other: Context matters. n/t

[baldguy]

402. The drug "war", chronic unemployment, endemic racism..

Whether or not its bigoted depends on what he plans on DOING about it.

[defendandprotect]

403. It's bigoted because it makes negative presumptions about "out of wedlock" situations . . .

attributed to minority families -- and I'm reading "inner cities" as GOP code for "blacks" -- ????

As far as I recall, don't non-minority females have the highest percentage of children born "out of wedlock" ---

Sluts that they all may be .... or so Brownback seems to be saying ---

The Puritans are coming, the Puritans are coming, the Puritans are coming -- !!!!!!"

[fortyfeetunder]

405. Thanks to the war, we have some more single parents.....

Maybe this is a separate but related topic, so what has Brownback got to say for the hundreds if not thousands of newly-widowed (=now single) parents resulting from the war in Iraq? I bet most of them are not from affluent families.

[NaturalHigh]

406. Whether it's bigoted or not, it's a fair point.

Of course, it's not PC for a white guy to say it.