New Mexico governor wants Michigan's water

[LisaM]

Why not just send it all to Las Vegas and turn it into a garden?

This proposal is insane. I wasn't a Richardson fan before, but this makes me want to call his campaign headquarters simply to lodge a complaint. The ecological consequences of taking Great Lakes water (already diminishing) down to an overpopulated desert would be immense, and it really makes me question Richardson's environmental creds (not to mention that this article makes me so angry that I'm clenching my teeth).



http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?Dato=20071011&Kategori=NEWS05&Lopenr=710110436&Ref=AR&Show=0&imw=Y

[Pawel K]

1. We have to drink somehow

water is a huge problem here in New Mexico, we simply grew too big too quickly thanks in part to Richardson.

[LisaM]

3. The get it from Lake Tahoe

The Great Lakes are a delicate resource that needs to be protected and just because states like California, Arizona, Nevada, and New Mexico have been environmentally irresponsible doesn't mean that a precious national resource should be endangered. I'm not sure that all the ecological remifications of the Great Lakes are even understood, but these states can't continue to build on arid land and continue to sustain growth.

[Pawel K]

16. Shit happens, we are where we are.

I can't leave this place because I need my home and I need my job. So as I said, I need to drink.

I have absolutely no idea what the environmental issues are surrounding the great lakes and I'm not going to pretend that I do. But if the north east has plenty of water to spare it would be great if they could share it even if it doesn't come from the great lakes but from elsewhere.

[1gobluedem]

17. We do NOT have the water to spare

Great Lakes are down drastically this year because we haven't had much snow over the past few years and that's what fills them. The water is needed here; where it is and where it belongs.

Go drain Tahoe. Drain the Colorado River. Melt the snowcaps in the Rockies. But there is no reason for us to send our water to the desert because some people like to be warm all year long.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. How much water is in the great lakes...

and how much water does New Mexico want?

[1gobluedem]

24. Not enough and too much n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. Well if you're so sure...

then you must know the numbers...

[1gobluedem]

46. As I stated above

Lake levels are drastically down because the snowpack has decreased over the last few years. Superior is down more than three feet from normal levels. Freighters can't put in at their usual ports and have to carry lighter loads to get through some of the shallower areas. It's a major concern.

Any amount of Great Lakes water that non-Great Lakes states want is too much. We have to protect our own natural resources.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. And that's got nothing to due with New Mexico.

"Any amount of Great Lakes water that non-Great Lakes states want is too much."

Why? I mean, if it were amount they wanted were comparable to the amount of the entire watershed snowpack, then yeah you'd have a point. But I haven't seen any actual numbers.

[1gobluedem]

133. Why do you need to?

I just said that the water levels are dropping drastically; I can dig some links out if you're so skeptical or you could even dig them up yourself (I am recovering from 2nd degree burns on my arms and can't use the keyboard for long amounts of time). But, why should Michigan sell or give off a precious natural resource that we need? Should New Mexico level off their mountaintops and sell them to Louisiana to fill in the wetlands? Don't they need them? Should California hack down the giant redwoods and sell them to Vegas to use as pilings in new casinos because Vegas is in a desert? Where is the logic in that?

The Great Lakes are a delicate and precious natural resource that already serve seven states and two Canadian provinces. That's enough of a drain. By your logic, maybe we in Michigan should buy a couple of Alps from Switzerland and ship them to the UP for better skiing. Why should we worry what happens to Switzerland because of it?

[Romulox]

22. You sure as shootin' can leave NM.

It's not the rest of our jobs to enable your environmentally irresponsible lifestyle. :eyes:

[Pawel K]

31. My lifestyle is perfectly fine, thanks for asking.

And no I can't leave, if I lose my job at this point I am shit out of luck. Great to know that you have wonderful job security though, congratulations to you.

[Romulox]

51. Then tell your governor to put his hand back into HIS OWN pocket. nt

[Tesha]

105. You live in a place that hasn't got enough water to sustain the people who live there.

Your lifestyle is *FUNDAMENTALLY* out of balance and
non-sustainable.

Tesha

[Trillo]

169. All of our lives are *FUNDAMENTALLY* out of balance with nature.

They have been since the move from a hunter gatherer existence to the "more civilized" one based upon feudal agriculture some 10000-6000 years ago.

[Clark2008]

25. Then they should take it from the South

We have an abundance.

[KamaAina]

59. You do? Both Atlanta and Raleigh are facing imminent shortages

due to the recent drought.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2007709&mesg_id=2007709

[piedmont]

115. No, we don't. We have a complete ban on outdoor water use in north GA.

We have a 45 day water supply if we don't get more rain.

And please don't invite any more Yankees. We have too much sprawl and too little water as it is.

[AZ Criminal JD]

131. Who is the "We"? Speak for yourself.

[RebelOne]

171. I'm in North Georgia and part of the "We."

We will be running dry on our 2 most important water sources, Lake Lanier and Lake Allatoona, by the end of the year if we don't get some rain.

[LisaM]

39. They don't have it to spare, that's the whole point

That's like saying Brazil has plenty of rainforest to spare, so go ahead and chop it all down.

[Pawel K]

44. And if thats the case, fine.

But dont shut us out completely because you dont happen to live here. If there is water out there to spare we should be able to buy it. And I'm sure there is plenty of water out north that can be spared.

[LisaM]

48. Well there's not

I refer you to previous posts, but the Great Lakes are not a replenishable resource. If Bill Richardson thinks that they are, then he is not going to be a good environmental steward.

[Pawel K]

50. Is that all the water you guys have in the north west, just the great lakes?

serious question, I dont know. But it would seem to me like you have a lot more.

[Romulox]

52. Northwest? Do you know where the Great Lakes are??? nt

[Pawel K]

84. No I have no clue

I'm that stupid. :shrug:

It was a typo, but thanks for noticing.

[LisaM]

54. The Great Lakes are not in the Northwest

They are in the North Central or Great Lakes Region (I am from Michigan, live in Seattle now).

The Northwest has snowpack in the mountains, which is essential to maintaining water levels. Snow pack depends on many factors other than just how much snow falls in a year. For example, we can get record amounts of snow in a year, but the snow is not necessarily sustained in the snow pack if there is a warm summer and a lot of it runs off. The snowpack on Mt. Rainier and Mt. Baker is declining (like glaciers). Global warming is obviously a huge contributor to this, but so is global climate change. An unseasonal early storm can add a lot of snow, but if there is a warm spell afterwrds, it can be lost. It doesn't help build up the snowpack. Interestingly, people here are very concerned with water conservation - no one waters their lawns, for example (or few people do).

[amandabeech]

56. Tell that to the Canadians. It's their water, too.

I think that businesses that have fled to the sunbelt and now don't have enough water for themselves or their employees are the ones you need to talk to.

There's plenty of low-cost housing, business and industrial areas around the Great Lakes. They were built there in part because the needed water was there, too.

I suggest that you talk to your boss about moving, rather than claiming a right to decimate the Lakes and their economies.

[Zookeeper]

110. Why do you think it would stop with NM?

If NM gets it, then why not Arizona, Nevada, California, Texas and anyone else who can find great ways to waste it (lawns, golf courses, swimming pools, fountains, etc.).

Also, because of NAFTA, if water resources are sold to anyone, it opens up the possibility of Mexico making demands as well.

I would suggest you do some research on this issue before being so cavalier. Lack of water is one of the trade-offs people make for a warm climate. I guess you all need to learn to conserve or stop building more housing.

I moved back to the Great Lakes area (in part) because I'd rather have water than year-round summer. I'll be the first person standing in front of the bulldozers, to protect our beautiful and fragile environment.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

120. Did I say I thought it would?

"If NM gets it, then why not Arizona, Nevada, California, Texas and anyone else who can find great ways to waste it "

Does Minnesota use it for their lawns and golf courses?

"I would suggest you do some research on this issue before being so cavalier. "

By all means, give me some data on the environmental impact such a pipeline would have.

[Zookeeper]

121. I wasn't talking to you. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

122. OK, nevermind then.

[gollygee]

102. You get the sun, we get the water

people and businesses choose where to located in part based on available resources. If people and businesses want water, they can move to Michigan. You can't expect to live in a desert and have a green lawn.

I haven't heard of a wave of deaths by dehydration in NM.

[LeftyMom]

163. You have got to be shitting me.

No, they can't get water from Lake Fucking Tahoe. It's barely any closer, it's not in a place where they could get the water out easily (it's in a basin surrounded by high mountains) it's some of the most legally protected water on earth (hell, you can't even boat in most of it) and it's not all that big anyhow. Because it's fed by snow melt from a relatively small watershed it can't handle that kind of draw down.

I mean really, have you ever even been to Lake Tahoe?

Bringing water all the way down there from the Great Lakes is stupid, but taking it from Lake Tahoe is even more asinine. Someplace in the southern Sierra would make a little sense, if southern California weren't sucking it all up.

[theHandpuppet]

55. Then move to a place with water.

You live in the desert, abide by its rules. Push for laws prohibiting public fountains, swimming pools, golf courses, etc. You can't just steal water from the Great Lakes if you do nothing to outlaw the WASTE of that resource.

God this burns me up. :grr:

[LisaM]

67. Good point - golf courses use excessive amounts of water

Is Richardson willing to close them down?

[Truth2Tell]

99. It's not about drinking water

or even water for urban areas. This is about subsidies for big agri-business, and it's bi-partisan pork barrel when it comes to water projects - always has been.

[Odin2005]

104. Do you have a watered lawn? do you play on local golf courses? If you do you...

...are being part of the problem.

[Pawel K]

151. No, I dont play golf.

The grass on my property is less than 25% of the total property area as required by new mexico state law and is watered only once every other day, as required by city law.

[LisaM]

152. you water your lawn?

I live in frickin' SEATTLE and I don't water my lawn. That is WASTE, my friend. You shouldn't even HAVE a lawn in New Mexico.

[Pawel K]

155. Oh please, spare me the hippie bullshit. nt

[LisaM]

157. Seriously, you must be high

If you live in New Mexico, you should not have a yard. And if you do, and if you think you deserve water from my beloved home state, then frankly, you have left me speechless.

[piedmont]

112. If you grew too big for your water supply, you'd better shrink. nt

[BadgerLaw2010]

138. So stop planting golf courses on sand and move back to the Midwest.

Destroying the ecosystem of most of the Eastern United States because you want a fountain in your yard isn't going to fly.

And, I'm sorry to say, there are a lot more votes in Great Lakes states than worthless SW states.

[dysfunctional press]

141. so move to where the water is.

duh.

[JVS]

148. How about living somewhere where the water is?

[HeraldSquare212]

2. Richardson wants states to discuss water policy

The headline on the article is actually, "Mich. should share water, N.M. governor says"

from the article that is linked to:

-snip-

He told the Las Vegas Sun last week that if elected, he would bring states together to discuss how water-rich northern-tier states could help with shortages in the southwest.

"I want a national water policy," Richardson told the paper. "We need a dialogue between states to deal with issues like water conservation, water reuse technology, water delivery and water production. States like Wisconsin are awash in water."


-snip-

So, it doesn't seem he 'wants' anything, except for states to try to figure out how to handle water issues.

[LisaM]

4. Why should they?

He just wants to irrigate the desert.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Romulox]

20. What water issues??? Here in Michigan we have plenty!

And we're not having any difficulty "handling" our supply here whatsoever. None.

[seasat]

128. Exactly, with climate change water availability may shift.

States that are "awash" in water could find themselves in a drought too. I grew up in GA and Atlanta is undergoing such a severe drought that they've banned outdoor water use. It is a topic that needs to be discussed.

You have water shortages in some larger cities due to the higher population density. If you want a lower energy society one of the proposals in to increase population density so that there is a lower need for transportation. You have two environmental principles that are in conflict with each other, water usage and population density.

Here's also some numbers on why the premise of the article is ridiculous. There is no way that Richardson is suggesting an Alaskan pipeline from Nevada to the Great Lakes. The Alaskan pipeline pumps 42 million gallons of oil per day and was built at a cost of $8 billion in 1997. The Alaskan pipeline covers 800 miles. It is approximately 1700 miles from Las Vegas to Chicago. Based on 1990 numbers, Nevada Residences use 204 gallons of water per day. Using the volume of the Alaskan pipeline it would only cover just over 204,000 people in Nevada per day. Plus, being twice the distance and converting it to 2007 dollars, it would cost $48 billion dollars to build. That would be a cost of $234,000 per resident covered. Now I know that a water pipeline would be cheaper in construction than an oil pipeline but it would cost significantly more in right of way purchases than going across unpopulated Alaskan tundra. It is not economically feasible and Richardson is not proposing taking Great Lakes water.

[bbgrunt]

165. he's not proposing taking great lakes water.....yet. This is how it starts.

Start talking about a NATIONAL water policy---whatever does that mean? It means that contingencies will be developed to eventually commandeer water resources belonging to some for the benefit of others.

[BadgerLaw2010]

139. He can go to hell. Drain the Great Lakes? Or is the water going to be piped back?

Moronic comment.

[Romulox]

5. Not just 'no', but 'HELL NO!'

Just another power-grab by the greedy DLC candidate. Tell you what, we'll support NM on water issues the same way they support us on labor issues. :puke:

[LisaM]

7. EXCELLENT POINT

When they unionize their workforce, we'll give them a drop.

[theHandpuppet]

58. I'll second that!!

Tit for tat, and all that.

[1gobluedem]

23. That's a great idea

When everyone in New Mexico buys a US car made with union labor, we'll talk.

[Clark2008]

28. Boo-Ya!

I'm with YOU on that.

:hi:

--> Owner of a Ford Mustang... assembled in Deerborne (unfortunately, not completely built there, though).

[sufrommich]

95. Ooh,I like that one

[WinkyDink]

6. Ought humans to live in desert regions?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Ought they live in Michigan?

[TwilightGardener]

10. That's where the precious liquid stuff of life is--so, yes. They ought.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. It ain't liquidy when it's fifty below.

[LisaM]

21. Well, the consequences of having enough fresh water

include having to deal with winter.

If you don't want cold weather, and you want fresh water, you've kind of put yourself in a box.

[TwilightGardener]

26. That's what axes are for.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. And getting water from somewhere else is what pipes are for.

All in all, I'd rather live in New Mexico.

[TwilightGardener]

33. And yet, somehow the adaptable folks from Michigan manage to survive

winter without dehydrating, and without New Mexico's help. How DO they do it?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. Michigan's completely self sufficient?

They don't import things?

[TwilightGardener]

38. I'm guessing not H2O.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. No.

But I'm guessing there's plenty of things you in Michigan enjoy that isn't from Michigan. Petroleum, for instance. Or tropical fruit.

[TwilightGardener]

45. Petroleum is drilled, refined, bought and sold by private industry.

Now, if Richardson wants to enter into a business contract about water, I'm sure the people of MI will give him a listen, provided it's profitable for them. Same thing about fruit--commodity, bought and sold. Necessary, too--unless they want scurvy up there.

[amandabeech]

79. My relatives in Michigan, where I grew up, aren't interested in a business contract

for their water! Do you want a business contract for air now, too?

As for fruit, we don't have citrus, but we have everything else.

We can use spruce needle tea in place of citrus for vitamin C. Or all those tomatoes and cantalopes.

[1gobluedem]

49. There is petroleum here as well natural gas for heating in Michigan

And lots of hydro power for electricity. And wind turbines for power going up in the Thumb.

We are pretty self-sufficient.

I thought NM had all those huge artesian wells under its surface. What happened to those?

[LisaM]

37. Are you for oil pipelines too?

We need to curtain energy use and piping water to New Mexico (or anywhere in the Southwest) is not going to contribute to that.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. Uh, generally, yes.

I drive a car. I use plastics. So I use petroleum and therefore using oil pipelines sure strikes me as more environmentally friendly then shipping all that oil with trucks and boats.

[LisaM]

47. Let me ask what you do to cut back energy (and water) usage

I have always lived in water-rich places. I know, however, that water is a resource and I respect it and don't waste it; the same with oil or other energy sources. I:

1) carpool or take the bus almost exclusively, unless I walk
2) do not water my lawn
3) have a low flush toilet
4) do not use a dishwasher (uses more water than washing by hand)
5) re-use as much water as possible (e.g., water houseplants with water from peoples' water glasses, etc.)
6) do not use air conditioning and turn the heat down or off at night
7) keep my recycling down by drinking tap water, re-using water and coffee cups and glasses at work
8) attempt to use everything from plastic bags to other sides of sheets of paper at least twice. I boycott Starbucks, partly because of packaging issues
9) turn off all electricity I am not using
10) unplug small appliances during the day (toaster, etc.)

A lot of energy in the SW is generated by hydro-electric power. It breaks my heart to see Las Vegas and all the waste - not just lights, but the swimming pools and air conditioning, and cars.

What are you doing?

[Thothmes]

166. Take navy showers

[Scout]

64. good, stay the fuck down there, and keep your paws off the great lakes. n/t

[Clark2008]

34. And matches

[TwilightGardener]

35. And kettles.

[LSK]

63. you mean I dont drink Lake Michigan water in winter?

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

66. I mean Michigan sucks.

It ain't fit for human habitation.

:shrug:

[LSK]

72. uhh, Michigan is just across the lake from me

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. Isn't Michigan just across the lake from itself?

[LSK]

80. its down the road 3 blocks, take a left, turn right at the mail box

knock on the door 3 times and ask for Guido.

[NutmegYankee]

107. Please explain that.

Been people living there for thousands of years.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

124. People have been living in New Mexico for thousands of years too.

[spoony]

150. And they haven't needed Great Lakes water, so problem solved.

[BadgerLaw2010]

153. And they got along fine. Guess they weren't using as much water.

[sufrommich]

96. Do you imagine our lakes

freeze solid?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

98. Do you imagine things don't live in New Mexico?

[sufrommich]

106. Did I say that?

[Zookeeper]

116. Don't bother.

He's incapable of arguing without inventing imaginary comments and making accusations.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

119. Did I say the entire lake freezes?

[sufrommich]

125. You said"it ain't liquidy",which I assumed

meant you believed it was solidy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

132. The entire lake isn't at -50 below.

Or is it?

[WinkyDink]

111. Well, duh---who is desperate for WATER here?

[BadgerLaw2010]

140. Yes. The Midwest is a normal temperate, wet, fertile climate. Very habitable.

[silverweb]

9. Just an idea...

But the nearest coastal areas to NM are Mexico and Texas. Why doesn't NM negotiate with either or both of these to work on coastal solar desalination/power plants and pipe the water inland?

Yes, the plan would be expensive and have some complicated hurdles to overcome, but they're really pretty much out of other alternatives.

[XemaSab]

73. Probably easier to desalinate saline aquifers

:P

[silverweb]

94. I don't know.

How far would that water go and how would tapping/desalinating it affect the area?

I'm just thinking of that old "water, water everywhere" thing and know that ocean desalination does work despite expense/difficulties.

Maybe desalinating the aquifers would work temporarily while coastal projects are in development for future needs?

I'm just disappointed that we hear so little about the possibility, as though it weren't worth considering.

:shrug:

[XemaSab]

97. In Santa Barbara they found it easier to hook up to State water than keep the desal plant running

:shrug:

[silverweb]

108. For now.

"Easier" isn't always better when options are becoming more and more limited. And what was fueling the Santa Barbara plant?

The future of fresh water supplies is uncertain at best. I wonder at what point the desal plant will become the "easier" option again....

[Zookeeper]

117. Water shortages are a major global issue, so the smart....

thing is to focus on desalination, which may be THE solution of the future for many regions.

Tapping the Great Lakes is wrong in so many ways, but ultimately it's shortsighted. 'Probably looks like the cheap and quick solution to Richardson and his corporate cronies, though.

[silverweb]

127. Exactly what I'm thinking.

[TwilightGardener]

11. Sometimes you just have to admit that any further growth must be curtailed, because

your state doesn't have the resources to responsibly keep up with the demand. Hard for a Gov to admit that, but there it is.

[IDemo]

12. This same sort of idiocy was spouted a couple of decades ago

Someone from southern California (LA Board of Supervisors?) proposed redirecting "unused" Snake River water southwards. The proposal was shot down then and will be again if it resurfaces.

[hedgehog]

14. The water wars may yet result in the break-up of the union.

The Northeast has more in common with Canada than with some of the southern and western states. It's not impossible.

[madrchsod]

15. sorry no can do

canada has a say in lakes water and i doubt any state is willing to sell a drop of water to anyone.

[Romulox]

18. I'd sell water to NM. At $80 dollars/barrel

Let's put what's really important in perspective here, shall we? :rofl:

[sufrommich]

109. Well, that would certainly cure

our economic ills,wouldn't it?

[Zookeeper]

118. The problem is...

if you start selling it to anyone, you may have to sell it to everyone.

With NAFTA, that leaves us open to demands from Mexico. There was already an attempt to sell tankers full of water to China, that fortunately was shot down just in time.

[Romulox]

145. I've got no problem with that. It should go to the highest bidder, just like NM's oil

We can't discriminate among buyers, but we get to set the amounts we wish to sell.

:sarcasm:

(edit to add sarcasm tag!)

[PDJane]

27. No.

The Great Lakes are the remnants of glacier melt from the last ice age. THEY CAN'T BE REFILLED FROM RAINWATER AND SNOW MELT. That's all there is, folks. Removing that water would irreparably damage the environment.

Next question. Why should the north east allow the great lakes to be destroyed because the US is unable to live within its means?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. Oh I find that hard to believe.

The Great lakes were carved by the glaciers. The water isn't all glacier melt.

[LisaM]

62. I presume that you aren't serious

Lake Michigan has the longest remaining unbroken glacial moraine in the world (unfortunately, people want to ride dune buggies and ATVs over it, but I guess those a-holes are everywhere).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. Well sure it's got a big moraine.

Like I said, it was carved by glaciers, so all that shit's got to end up somewhere.

That really doesn't have anything to do with the water that's in it now.

[LisaM]

68. But it points to the fact that it's a finite resource n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

76. It also points to the fact that it's a renewable resource.

[LisaM]

78. After the next Ice Age?

How exactly do you mean?

I actually think you're trying to mess with me and that you don't truly believe that NM really should get Great Lakes' water (the most previous ludicrous proposal by Michigan's evil former governor was to put it in tankers and sell it to Korea, I kid you not).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

82. No, thanks to precipitation.

Which, btw, is how glaciers form in the first place.

"I actually think you're trying to mess with me and that you don't truly believe that NM really should get Great Lakes' water"

Actually, no, I'm wondering why the people living in Michigan should get 20% of the world's fresh water. What are you guys doing with it?

[LisaM]

83. Oh, fishing, shipping, commercial recreation, wind farms

Not much, really!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. And this proposal would have a significant impact on those?

[LisaM]

86. Tinkering with natural resources is always a crapshoot

But if you read some of the other posts, you'll see that global warming, lower precipitation, and declining water levels have already affected Great Lakes' shipping. Irrigation is already one of the largest uses of water in the world. If New Mexico is concerned about water, they can give up watering their lawns, swimming pools, golf courses, and air conditioning.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

87. Yes, the Great Lakes get affected by things.

But are their scientific objections to this proposal, or is it just a knee jerk response?

[LisaM]

92. I think probably both

and I'm still waiting to hear how YOU try to conserve water!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

93. I only drink whiskey.

[PDJane]

69. It's not all glacier melt, no.

However, filling the lakes without the glacier melt would be as difficult as filling the oceans. The great lakes are, essentially, a freshwater inland sea. The water that flows into and out of them is immense, but the water filling the lakes is ancient.

Without the action of the glaciers in scouring the land, there would be no lakes. If it weren't for glacier melt, the scouring would not have produced lakes. It would take 25 Great Salt Lakes just to fill Lake Erie and that’s the smallest of the real Great Lakes! Only 1% of the water in the great lakes is renewed each year.

[IDemo]

70. Great Lakes water

The Great Lakes Basin holds almost 20 percent of the fresh water on the earth and supports an ecosystem that is of world-class importance. Only approximately three percent of the water comes from annual replenishment such as precipitation and river inflow from the greater water shed. The other nearly 97 percent of the water is a gift from our last ice age and is not replenished.

http://www.in.gov/newsroom.htm?detailContent=7455_11005.htm

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

81. Lets do the math.

A quick googling shows that the great lakes have some 5,439 cubic miles of water.

The St. Lawrence river drains 244,000 cubic feet of water per second.

There are ~1.5 * 10^11 cubic feet per cubic mile.

How long would it take for the St. Lawrence river to drain the Great Lakes, provided they were not being replenished?

My back of envelope calculation comes up with 40 years. Someone want to check that?

[PDJane]

88. What you're missing is the depth of the river.

vs. the depth of the lake. The renewable water rushes out....the glacier melt fills the lakes. It would take, according to my sources, 197 years to fill the great lakes from renewable resources, if the water weren't also being drained.


The US Army Corps of Engineers has caused declines in the lakewater by dredging rivers on the outflow and diverting groundwater. They're in court over one or two of those issues, at last look.

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/250891

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

90. Mmm, no I'm not.

I believe the total flow of the river and the total volume of the lakes take into account the depths of both.

[originalpckelly]

43. It's so cute to watch people from different states fight each other.

Especially people from New Mexico and Michigan, one's colder than a witch's thorax, and the other is hotter than hell. I wouldn't pick either, and I live above NM in CO.

[LisaM]

57. Michigan is actually less cold than some other northern states

The Great Lakes provide a thermal buffer from some of the temperature extremes you'll find in, say, Fargo-Moorhead.

[Scout]

71. both your descriptions are incorrect, in my opinion ....

I live in Michigan and have visited and have friends in New Mexico.

Neither is the extreme you describe.

And I suppose Colorado is a weather paradise?

[marmar]

100. "one's colder than a witch's thorax"

Not anymore. We had essentially a month of winter (February) this year. People were golfing in January, and I needed a windbreaker rather than a coat on Christmas Day. Global warming, pal.

[KamaAina]

134. Indeed. It's too bad they don't play each other in football.

This kind of trash talk would lend itself nicely to a Michigan-OSU-type rivalry.

Then again, at the rate they're going, the Wolverines might well end up in the Styrofoam Bowl or something. How's New Mexico doing?

[BadgerLaw2010]

137. Great Lakes diversion enrages all Great Lakes states. Fuck the Southwest.

You can move back up here.

[Deja Q]

53. Well, let him walk over to Michigan with a big bucket and a sponge.

Mind you, Colorado's closer... Mork and Mindy live there too. Nanu-nanu!

[LSK]

60. Lake Superior was down a foot from last year

And how exactly does he propose to bring the water there?

[Scout]

61. desert rats, stay away from our Great Lakes water! n/t

[XemaSab]

74. Sort of like what they've done in California?

Creating permanent animosity between north and south? :shrug:

[RB TexLa]

77. What about everyone who wants our (Louisiana) natural gas and oil

We should have shut the pipelines, ports, drilling and refineries down after being told we were wanting to steal from the US treasury during the energy bill debate after Katrina and Rita. We could have easily shown America $100 a barrel oil and brought it to it's knees. But our governor didn't follow through with her threat to do so.

[seasat]

89. BS hit piece. He did not say that.

All he said was:

"I want a national water policy," Richardson told the paper. "We need a dialogue between states to deal with issues like water conservation, water reuse technology, water delivery and water production. States like Wisconsin are awash in water."

In NM they share scarce water with Texas. All he is calling for is talks on the issue. Unless we slow down population growth, clean water will become an increasingly scarce resource. It already is here in Florida and out West. He is suggesting that neighboring states may want to work out arrangements like NM does and not some mandatory federal program.

His policy's have a strong emphasis on conservation. In no way shape or form did he say that he wants to take water from the Great Lakes. Besides being environmentally damaging, it'd be an extremely expensive project.

[malakai2]

143. "States like Wisconsin are awash in water"

Little nuggets like that (see also, "water delivery" and "water production"), viewed through the prism of the chronic water shortages in southwestern states, lead people to believe that he has designs on transporting water from those states that are "awash" to those states that aren't. And what then? Every time we remove a ceiling on growth in an area, growth resumes until it hits a new ceiling...so where will New Mexico be in a few decades when, after they've broken through a previous ceiling and become thoroughly dependent on someone else's water, that someone else suddenly has none to spare? Disaster, more than likely, and on multiple scales. Why create a population dependent on a long supply chain for an item as essential as water, when it would be much simpler and vastly more cost effective to just encourage those folks to settle where the water already is?

If he wants a workable solution, as workable as possible while maintaining the status quo to the extent possible, then we can start by revisiting the water pacts between the southwestern states to more accurately reflect climate realities, criminalizing waste of the water he covets on such things as fountains and lawns and golf courses, and using water shortages as a much greater disincentive to population growth in arid states. Agricultural water rights laws and customs are doing us no favors, are they too much of a sacred cow to expect revisions? How about halting depletion of aquifers down there...those might be more important as emergency drought mitigation sources (to say nothing of their ecological value) than as lockboxes to be raided anytime a governor wants to avoid asking people to make an unpopular sacrifice.

If he would confine his statements to things like water conservation, water reuse, and water availability as a limiting factor for regional population size, he'd probably get far less immediate resistance from people in the Great Lakes region. People in the southwest might bristle at the idea of a cap on water availability, but then again most reasonable people associate terrestrial deserts with a shortage of water.

[marmar]

91. Perhaps now people are realizing the lack of logic of building large cities in the DESERT?!!?

Bill's a good guy, but :nopity:

[sufrommich]

101. I had a political science teacher

who once told us that the next civil war will be fought over water.For exactly the reason the west is now eyeing the Great lakes,because people will attempt to irrigate the dessert for their own selfish and pig headed desire to live in otherwise unlivable areas.

[Odin2005]

103. Maybe the SW should quit wasting water on golf courses and pretty green lawns...

before they start begging for Great Lakes water, don't ya think?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

113. Agreed.

Whenever I see Las Vegas and all those resorts/people/pools/fountains/lawns/houses/golf courses I want to fucking scream.

You cannot move to a desert and live like you are in the NE. It is the height of insanity. :banghead:

Here in SF I am planning for creating a green roof, am getting water barrels for runoff, and am already an aggressive water saver. Water is precious -- it's time we all start treating it that way.

[Zookeeper]

144. I live in a Great Lakes state and I collect rainwater to use in my...

garden. My air conditioner drains into a bucket, so I carry it up from the basement to water plants, as well. Most of the Metro area has restrictions on watering grass during dry spells. People here are pretty conscious about conserving our water resources, even with the assumed "abundance."

So, when I go to So. Cal. and see green lawns, golf courses, swimming pools and fountains in the desert, with no apparent attempt to address the issue with desalination plants, I feel like I'm looking at the decline and fall of civilization and my sympathy is somewhat lacking.

I hear you, HHNF!

[SoCalDem]

114. and lush green sodded lawns & fountains & imported garden plants

People move to the western desert states for the weather, and then set out to bring their "old ways of living" with them..

I saw a piece on 60 Minutes years ago, that pointed out that there were more ear , nose & throat doctors & allergists in Arizona (per capita) than anywhere else in the US..why?

Tons of allergic people moved there for their health & comfort, then they planted the same species of trees & plants that drove them looney..and then they and their kids started marrying each other, further closing the allergy circle..:rofl:

[Odin2005]

130. ROFLMAO!!! What morans!!!

:rofl:

[Zookeeper]

126. Well, Richardson certainly has connections to people who....

are familiar with pipelines:

http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2007/07/richardson.html

At the close of the Clinton administration, Richardson signed on as a senior managing director with Kissinger McLarty Associates, the advisory firm formed by Henry Kissinger and former Clinton chief of staff Mack McLarty, and promptly joined the boards of three large oil companies: Houston-based Diamond Offshore Drilling, a company once run by George Herbert Walker Bush; Denver-based Venoco; and Valero, North America's largest independent refinery. Until recently, Richardson held Valero stock worth between $100,001 and $250,000 and options valued between $250,001 and $500,000, according to disclosures filed with the Federal Election Commission. He divested himself of his stake in Valero in May, saying his financial ties to the company had become a "distraction" to his presidential campaign.

Though on the campaign trail he has come off as a staunch advocate of green energy, even proposing "a man-on-the-moon program" to address global warming and curb the nation's dependence on oil, his close ties to the oil industry would seem no small contradiction. Currently, he is one of the leading recipients of campaign contributions from oil and gas companies among the presidential contenders.

[seasat]

129. Those aren't the ties you need to worry about.

He also served on the boards of solar panel manufacturer and an electrical energy investment firm that specialized in renewable energy in the year he was out of public service. He even served on the board of the Natural Resources Defense Council. It is obvious the influence these boards have had on him. He has put up the strongest greenhouse gas reduction initiatives of any state. He even spoke out on climate change while UN Ambassador in 1998. He's even blocked drilling and mining in 2 million acres of natural land. On top of that, he's come out against the slaughter of wolves. It's obvious which of 10 boards he was a member held the most sway on his views. He's obviously a tool of the environmental movement not the US oil industry.

Also, he is governor of a state that has large oil and gas reserves. He's mainly received some contributions from South Western folks in that industry. He currently ranks 5th in receipts in that sector. They have only contributed 95 k out of his over 13 million raised. His total is much less than Ghouliani or Mittens and only 24 k more than Obama's.

[Zookeeper]

146. Yet, he's pointing out how much "extra" water we have up here...

and how little there is in the Southwest. Maybe he cares more about wolves than the ecosystem of the Great Lakes.

I have zero confidence that he wouldn't sell out this region in a second.

He sold out the Democratic party during the 2004 election, when he not only stopped a recount, but actually demanded that the legislature pass a law that would require anyone wanting a recount to have to post a million dollar bond. (See Greg Palast's Armed Madhouse.)

Anyway, I haven't chosen a candidate yet, but my initial enthusiasm for Richardson is gone.

[LisaM]

156. He wants reclamation to be a Cabinet level position

This is the department that builds dams, diverts water, kills salmon, etc. This may have been well intentioned in the 1930s, but it's nonsense now.

You want water, move to Michigan. You want the country to support YOUR lifestyle, support union jobs in your state.

[Bushwick Bill]

135. Peak oil and gas will stop this shit.

In 5-10 years, the fossil fuels will not be there to run some absurd fucking plan to pump Great Lakes water to the desert. If you believe in Jim Kunstler's vision of the Long Emergency, the Vegases and Phoenixes are going to dry up without air conditioning and water.

I am as paranoid as anyone about protecting the Great Lakes. Apparently, people in the U.P. believe the pipeline stuff is going on already as the explanation for the low Lake Superior levels. I don't know. I just know that while the southwest wants their grimy paws on the water to keep building desert urban sprawl, mother nature will bat last and kill any such designs.

[BadgerLaw2010]

136. Fuck him, our lakes.

[TX-RAT]

170. Good thing we don't think the same way about our oil and gas.

Michigan gets damn cold.

[fujiyama]

142. All your great lake are belong to us!

[Zookeeper]

147. ......

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[Romulox]

149. Tough... Don't blame us. Blame yourself or God.

:yoiks:

[Horse with no Name]

154. Dallas wants Oklahoma's water too

the Governor of Oklahoma pointed out that they would be glad to share their water with anyone in Dallas who wanted to relocate. He made the excellent point that in the future, people will have to move where there is water. He would rather the economy in his state benefit from the fact that they DO have the resources to sustain more growth. Why would they want to send it away?

[loser_user]

158. State hate people

While Richardson's idea is ridiculous, why all the hatred towards the people of other state? The water issue isn't any one's fault, and moisture levels in NM are actually higher than they have been in recent years thanks to the multiple blizzards and cooler weather we've had this past year.

[mark414]

159. here's a bold idea: don't live in the desert if you want water

[Blue_In_AK]

160. Many years ago

our former governor Wally Hickel proposed a pipeline from Alaska to the Lower 48 transporting water, not oil. Everybody laughed at him at the time, but it looks like it may come to that someday.

[Thothmes]

167. Many years ago

California was considering an attempt to build a pipeline from the Columbia river west of Portland Oregon to Northern California.

[CHIMO]

161. Perhaps

Someone should explain to some people that it don't belong to Michigan!

Unless Homeland Security is going to erect a fence along the border through the Great Lakes?

[entanglement]

162. Privatize the Great Lakes...trade water like a commodity...let the free market decide

MEGA :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[bbgrunt]

164. if they want water, tell them to go to the golf courses and stand under a sprinkler.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

168. Uh, Bill?

The sound you're hearing is all of your supporters in the Upper Midwest heading for the exits. If you were just the governor of New Mexico, this would be a spectacularly bone-headed proposal. As a guy who's trying to be the next President, you're just committed political suicide by pitting one region of the country (and New Mexico's staggering five electoral votes) against the other.

Good night. Drive Carefully. It's been nice getting to know you.