Last thing - cause I am usually not here lately -

[Joe for Clark]

Think - who exactly is America - is Bush America??

No, no no no - WE are America. Not just us democrats - all of us - we are America.

Remember - a small elite - thought they were elite - ended up (probably by cheating) running the country for a few years. But they were never us - they never could be.

At the end they will sure learn one thing true - KARMA IS A BITCH.

Joe

[tularetom]

1. Whaddya mean last thing?

I want to hear more from you Joe for Clark.

[Joe for Clark]

2. There were people there that stood up for americans - there

were kids that have no business being in the middle of a war in the first place.

Evacuate them.

No more Viet Nams. And it does NOT take 12 months to do that. That is bullshit.

The real tragedy in that war (VN) - is that we didn't do that one thing. Get the people out that supported us.

SO we maybe have to evacuate a million people - so what. We did a lot more than that at the end of 45 - and I think we have better transport now.

You know - I guess I am just a student of military history in the end. But my family commanded an army - and I am my parents child.

There is no reason we can't do the right thing. Do it.

Joe

[Blackhatjack]

3. Are you talking about Iraqis in general, or more specifically Kurds in the North?

So how do you see it IF we pull our troops back from the North and Turkey comes into Iraq and slaughters a lot of Kurds?

How do we defend/justify that?

[Joe for Clark]

5. It doesn't matter if Turkey comes in, if they do we are screwed.

You know during the civil war in our country maybe 9 of 10 people had no idea about slavery. SO we asked them why they fight so hard. They said, "Because you are here"

It is the epitomy of arrogance for us to assume other people feel differently.

Really.

BUT - they will rise because they are there too - just the way it is sometimes.

Joe

[Joe for Clark]

6. We can't - and we probably caused it in the end -

But you know what we can do ??

We can get the people that stood up for us the hell out of the country -

We can do that.

You asking me to justify a war - you have no idea how against war I really am.

I am truly christian - and we turn the other cheek.

Unless they attack us - then we turn on them. Violently.

If we are judeged by god in the end - he will judge us on this.

Joe

[Blackhatjack]

10. Our relationship and our actions with the Kurds has been hard to explain....

We have secretly supported the Kurds at least twice, only to abandon them when they carried out the task we gave them to do.

Since the fall of Saddam, we have once again been very supportive of the Kurds in the North, and the lack of insurgent activity and economic growth in the area has been a 'success story' that miliary leaders have pointed to in the midst of this total disaster in Iraq.

So if Turkey decides to cross the border into Iraq intent on wiping out the Kurds, the US has to make a choice -- protect the Kurds and fight the Turks, OR step back and abandon the Kurds and watch the Turks wipe them out.

Regardless of which option we choose, how do WE JUSTIFY/DEFEND the choice we make?

And if you thought there were no insurgents in the North, just wait until Turkey begins slaughtering them and the US just stands by and watches -- I would bet we will see lots of insurgents created who will turn against the US troops.

[Joe for Clark]

12. That is right - we are screwed either way.

[Bethany Rockafella]

4. Unfortunately what the elite brought to others, will come back on all of us. n/t

[DemoTex]

7. Unfortunately, Joe, the elite define our "Karma" ( short term) .. not us theirs.

Remember, Karma is a concept which explains causality through a system where beneficial effects are derived from beneficial actions and harmful effects from harmful actions. In Hinduism, all of the above becomes past tense, assuming reincarnation. But I know what you mean, pal!

BTW: Loved the call-out by Brother Will Pitt!

[Joe for Clark]

11. I took comp religions too -

I have a pretty good definition - you fuck with us and we we will fuck you back.

What we used to do - when a guy proved themselves deserving -we dunked them in hot tar (and it was hot) and then we dunked them in feathers and then we sent them off on their way.

How American.

I am ok with that.

Joe

[DemoTex]

13. Check out that Johnny Cash piece I posted on that other thread.

mac

[Lint Head]

8. The elite few are destroying this country and the world.

Literally and figuratively. :dem;

[Az]

9. I heard a rumor that it once was some group called We The People

George seems to think he was anointed King. He forgets he works for that mysterious group known as We The People.