A small note from someone who lives with it on "socialized medicine"

[BelgianMadCow]

Here in Belgium, we have a health care run by the government. There IS also private insurance, provided by employers, but :

- we get reimbursed practically 90% of all medicines
- a doctor visit will cost you about 7 euro after reimbursement
- doctors are followed up in their prescription behavior and have to use generic names and not brand names, so the pharmacy can give you a cheaper (generic) alternative if it's available
- very often, the government sits together with the pharmacy industry to negotiate better prices.
- a hospital visit, including for operations, is never gonna bankrupt you, as there is a "maximum bill" : if the bill is higher than that, the government will pay the difference.
- everyone HAS to have a basic health insurance on top of what the government does, costing about 100 euro per year for a family, and covering hospital visits beyond the basic coverage. The extra a private insurance brings, is more like you can get a room alone and even more things are covered (eg dental)

These measures have been passed to a large extent by the socialists when they were in government (which has been most of the time after WW II, not for the past couple of years).

We are NOT going broke from it, even though it's a challenge to keep the growth of the budget reasonable with the babyboomers growing old. It lies at about 5% per year nowadays. Instead, we are paying off our national debt at a rate of 3% per year.

[Common Sense Party]

1. Sounds comprehensive, all right.

Someone is bound to ask, of course: What kind of income taxes do you pay?

[BelgianMadCow]

4. Ow yes indeed, the income tax is hefty

if you are in let's say the neighbourhood of 100 kEuro, you will be paying about 45-50%.

It goes down pretty fast, if you earn 25 kEuro you will pay none.

And for that we do get a lot more than just socialized medicine. We also have unemployment benefits that are really big (speak of 1000 euro/mont for a family head). It has to be noted, we ARE being less and less forthcoming in granting that, trying really seriously to reactivate people and get out the profiteers.

Education is practically free up until univ, where you will pay 600 euro to get into the best univ if you have a decent income (otherwise, reimbursed).

We also have "service checks" which allow you to pay for house cleaning and the like at 6.5 euro per hour. The people working get 10 and something per hour, government makes up for the difference. This is hugely succesful.

Housing is between 150 and 250 kEuro for a freestanding house (without being huge).

All in all, we rank in the top 5 of countries in terms of quality of living. We do bitch about the taxes :-)

On a side note : here as well we have to work with 2 to afford such a house and daycare etc, where our parents could do with one. I'm not saying all is rosy here, and we also have underestimated inflation imho.

[Common Sense Party]

15. Truth be told, many Americans CAN live on one income

they just choose not to.

They choose to go heavily into debt, get an oversized house, two late-model vehicles, toys like snowmobiles or boats, rack up credit card debt. Then both parents have to work to pay off their high consumption debts.

[BelgianMadCow]

16. I know what you mean

it remains hard to not get caught up in all the New Needs we are being sold everyday. I benefitted greatly from a thread on DU asking "with what COULD you live if need be". I asked my SO and the reply was "I could do with a whole lot less and all would be fine". Took away a big part of my stress all at once.

However, if I try and live the life my parents did, we DO have to work with two (or maybe one parttime, that also means spending less on daycare and the like).

[againes654]

25. That is very true, but MANY more

don't choose to live that way. In my family we both work. We have $0 credit card debt. $0 in any type of loan (car, house, furniture etc.) My husband has some student loans, but as for debt, that is it for us. I was blessed to inherit some money to allow us to pay our house off so we don't have to worry about that. I know many that are the same way, but rent.

We still both have to work, just to pay our monthly living expenses, and still can't afford health insurance. Granted, neither one of us work at high paying jobs.

[Common Sense Party]

26. Oh, I don't doubt that there are many in your situation.

I don't know that there are MORE in your situation or in the one I mentioned; I have no idea what the percentage breakdown would be.

I only know what I have seen from knocking on doors and meeting people. I see lots of Americans living beyond their means.

[pnwmom]

2. We have a problem here getting doctors to practice in rural,

"underserved" areas. Do you have that problem in your country -- or how is it addressed?

[BelgianMadCow]

6. I guess we don't have that problem, really

take into account we have a population density of about 360 people /square kilometer, second only to the Neherlands worldwide think. There are VERY few places in Belgium where you cannot see another house (except in the south).

I never heard that mentioned as being a problem here. Of course, we have fewer doctors in rural areas, but in general we have more than enough and the density does correspond to the local population density. I think it is a self-regulating system. Doctors (house doctors, not specialists) all seem to make a very decent living, but nothing extreme. Any small village will have a couple of 'em.

People in Belgium think 100 km is a VERY long distance... :D on the couple of occasions I went to the US, I was amazed at for exmaple Palo Alto being a suburb of SF while being 20 kms away. Our major cities are that far away lol.

[pnwmom]

7. I think another problem we'll have in improving our system

is that many of our doctors, especially our specialists, do make salaries that are "extreme." And they won't want to give them up.

But personally, I'd rather see a doctor who was less motivated by money, and more by the chance to help people. Unfortunately, that seems to go against everything in our culture lately.

[BelgianMadCow]

10. A specialist will make about

200 k euro a year on average over here I think. I don't consider that extreme given they have to study till well in their thirties and given the very demanding life they lead. I know quite a few and their stress level is out there.

A house doctor is a well respected profession over here. We do limit the number of people allowed to study it because we have so many.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

23. Very true.

[TreasonousBastard]

3. Sounds like it works well for you, as do...

other European systems. But, Belgium no longer has an empire to support, with the huge military budget and the American hatred of taxes to pay for it. And it is quite a bit smaller, possibly with people in better health to begin with.

That's not saying we can't do it here, it just will be a lot more difficult. Kind of like the EU adopting one healthcare model.

[BelgianMadCow]

5. Hehe we never had much of an empire

but as you rightly mention, our budget for defense is a FRACTION of that of the US (in percentage of total budget). We could not police the world indeed. We are prett good and respected in humanitarian missions.

As to the european systems, Germany, Holland, France all have similar albeit not identical systems.

I do believe having a united social security (and one politcal voice on foreign policy) is THE big challenge for Europe, as for example now polish truckers are totally taking over, obviously not having the benefits (or cost) we do. Not accidentally, the US is moving it's military from old Europe to the east...

[robinlynne]

22. bingo. But we don't really need the huge military do we? I would rather have healthcare.

[Az]

8. Recently diagnosed with Diabetes and hemmoraging money

Unemployed (my job went to India) and painful neuropathy. I have the best coverage BCBS offers but that only covers two office visits a year. Yeah. This is a great system.

[BelgianMadCow]

9. TWO office visits per year?

phew :-( There is no limit over here. Specialist are more expensive (say 60 euro/visit) but that too is reimbursed. The fees for doctors are government-negotiated, they all stick to it.

anyway a :hug: to you. My dad has it too and I'm no stranger to neuropathy myself.

[BelgianMadCow]

11. Into the fray kick

:blush:

[Toots]

12. Keep talking like that and you may just get invaded and occupied by "Unitary Executive"

Hail to the mighty "Unitary Executive" He knows more than 75% of all Americans...and makes no bones about it..

[BelgianMadCow]

13. Don't forget Poland

still needed for torture camps and to put up missile defense systems!

OKay, I'm in old Europe, I am buying duct tape online now.

No to be honest : Sarkozy is an atlantist, and that means there is a rift in Europe between the two main players (except the UK) namely Germany and France. The fact that we seldom speak with one voice is such a pity. I wish for a united states of Europe...and I do think that process has been sped up by Bush*co - more people realise we need it now.

[davekriss]

14. I was in your country recently

Brussels and Welkenraedt. It was a wonderful experience. I kind of got the feeling I was leaving civilization when I was boarding my plane to return to the States.

[Vinca]

17. Wow - big difference between our last insurance quote of

$12,000 a year for lousy coverage and 100 Euros. It must be wonderful to live in a country that allows you peace of mind.

[ieoeja]

21. Just wait a couple of years.

Shouldn't be much longer now before $12,000 is EQUAL to 100 Euros.

[WinkyDink]

18. All that AND the best beer, mussels, frites, and city square!

[BelgianMadCow]

19. why thank you

especially for including fries!! the french suck :-)

But you forgot chocolate :P

[donsu]

20. kick

nt

[2Design]

24. the money usa spends on bombs and bullets and military would easily pay for health care n/t

[BelgianMadCow]

27. Belgian government spends 1700 euro per person per year - extrapolated to the US

The budget in Belgium for governmental health care is about 17 billion euro per year.
This is for 10 million people, so about 1700 euro per person per year.

This would mean for the US a total budget of
300 million x 1700 euro = 510 Billion Euro or 719 Billion Dollar at today's rate.

The defense budget is at 620 Billion dollar for FY 2008 (but that's "only" counting 141 Billion for Iraq and Afghanistan).