Okay -- How do YOU define "Left" or "Lefty?"

[Sparkly]

My other post today got into some arguments about definitions, or lack thereof, of "Left" and "Lefty" and "Leftist," etc.

What I wrote there, in part:

What “Left” Is: It’s a pretty broad term, so it’s always debatable (though rarely, if ever, debated here). But by any definition, we’re talking about political philosophy. We’re talking about the role of government; empowerment of people who are oppressed or exploited, especially by capitalism; the problems of class systems, etc. What we are NOT talking about is level of emotion about any particular issue or strong outspokenness about any particular issue.

So let's discuss. It's difficult to avoid general terms because "left" has meant so many different things specifically in various times and places. But in general or specifically...

Is it NOT about a political philosophy?

Is there a litmus test of "Leftist" and if so, what is it?

Is it about beliefs, or something else?

Does passion or depth of feeling play a role in the definition?

Outspokenness? Commitment? Activism?

Methodology or means of a achieving leftist goals -- is that separate or not?

Is it about militance? And if so, what does militant mean to you?

[brentspeak]

1. What if it turns out, upon examination, that all political leftists are also left-handed?

:hide:

[niyad]

2. no, some of us are ambidextrous.

[Sparkly]

5. That'd make it easy, unless not all left-handed people are political leftists.

Hmm...

[LisaM]

3. Perhaps the term should be progressive, not leftist.

After all, the term originated because of an arbitrary placement of CHAIRS.

I signed up for a series of progressive lectures a few years ago. The woman I bought the tickets from said, "it's our series for lefties!" I am left-handed, and I had a wild moment of truly believing that the shows would be geared towards LEFT-HANDED people - left-handed desks that we could sit and take notes on, doors that you could pull open with your left hand, etc. But then I realized what they meant!

[sandnsea]

4. I try to differentiate

between Che style "leftist" and/or anarchist, paint throwing PETA lefty, and the progressive liberal left who sometimes are so stuck on idealism that they impede progress. I think a traditional Democrat looks at all views, far left to far right, and tries to strike a balance that respects all basic rights, as much as possible. But sometimes, as Obama says, when they're wrong and you can't win them over any other way, you just have to beat them. That's one key thing we've been missing for 25 years.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. It's a generality. Like "Christian" or "Artist" or "Idealist" or "Western Culture".

Gandhi was a militant as was Pol Pot.

"The Left" is a non-entity.

[Desertrose]

18. Exactly...it is a non-entity.

Left is merely a descriptive word that has a different meaning to everyone. It is NOT a tangible thing or position, although the word is thrown around in that context.


Thank you, TyL

DR

[Selatius]

7. Leftist, when you strip it down to the bare bones, merely talks about economic stances

It has nothing to do with militancy or outspokenness or methodology or commitment or activism. I could be an activist and be committed to serving people ice cream, for instance. That has no bearing on how leftist someone is on economic ideology. Leftism describes a tendency of thought in terms of collectivism vs. capitalism and the gray area in between. A person who is left leaning often has criticisms as far as capitalistic exploitation of resources and people. For instance, some people do not tolerate profit taking in the health insurance market. They generally support single-payer health care. Other leftists may tolerate profit taking in that field, but they only support it in the context of heavy regulation.

If we were talking about methodology, then you're really talking about the scale between libertarian and authoritarian methodology and the gray in between the two poles. That has little to do with economic ideology. Stalin and Gandhi were both left wingers. The dividing line was the methodology they employed and their views on democracy and mass action.

[GeminiProgressive]

8. I would say

Leftists are socialists and liberals favor regulated capitalism. Og course liberal means something totally different in other countries.

[Selatius]

9. See, I generally think folks who favor regulation/mixed economic models are leftists too

They're simply not as left wing as socialists who believe collectivism is the best way to order society. Most economies in the industrialized world are mixed economic models. In the US, we have an economically mixed system as well, just that it isn't as left wing as in Europe. In France, private ownership of resources still exists in most of its markets, but in some markets, such as the market for health insurance, the government holds a monopoly to keep costs down.

[Lilith Velkor]

10. Ya beat me to it

Good post.

:toast:

[defendandprotect]

11. NOT DLC-Republicanism . . ..

[Selatius]

12. kick n/t

[BelgianMadCow]

13. Socialist or green

well, over here it does.

[deutsey]

14. "Democratic Socialist" does it for me. The vagueness of "Left" and "Right"

have caused too many circular debates between me and others when I try to self identify. However, when I say I'm a "Democratic Socialist" I usually get the blank "Huh?" look, especially from those on the right, but at least it then allows me to list the specific attributes of a "DS" in concrete terms.

[Odin2005]

15. Left-Right, IMO, corresponds to Altruistic and Egoistic economic polices respectively.

The left-right axis is then perpendicular to the Libertarian-Authoritarian axis, which corresponds to Philosophical Individualism and Philosophical Collectivism. Most DUers, therefore, are Altruistic Individualists (Left-Libertarians).

[Sammy Pepys]

16. More ideological than simply "liberal"

To me, a "liberal" is one who leans left politically, but may still have moderate or even conservative tendencies in some categories. It also get blurred a bit by the handful of folks who prefer the classical definition of the word, which implies a more libertarian point of view.

A "leftist", by contrast, is solidly...well..."left."

[Sparkly]

17. I think I've come to a conclusion.

People who weighed in here gave thoughtful answers about political philosophy. (Thanks!)

Conspicuously absent have been those who trumpet their "leftism," claim they have their "own" definition of it, and refuse to discuss what that definition IS.

My conclusion: Here's what I think it is, to some here. It's a degree of pissed-offedness. It's "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore!" It's a perceived level of outrage. It's a level of intolerance, rejection of compromise, and thus rejection of the Democratic party (or large parts of it).

That's my best guess at this point about the phenomenon I'm looking at. I think everybody's got a right to feel whatever they feel, and speak and vote as they choose -- but it gets confusing when this particular stance is referred to here as "LEFT." It's completely separate from actual political philosophy, and more about emotion and disengagement from the party.

Hence, "I'm more left than you are!" indicates superior passion, commitment, or taking the outrage further by rejecting 'mainstream' politics.

Does this ring true to anyone else?

[Desertrose]

19. I think "left" is better used as a descriptive word....

Rather than a noun. There are so many other more definitive choices to describe a political philosophy.

socialism, marxism,libertarianism,communism, capitalism etc etc.

Maybe this is where the problems started.

:shrug:

DR

[Sparkly]

20. Isn't it both?

There's also socialist, Marxist, libertarian, communist, capitalist, etc.

It has to describe SOMEthing, doesn't it?

Otherwise, how can anyone tell someone else, "I'm to the left of you?"

[Desertrose]

25. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Ironic,eh? ;)

how can anyone tell someone else, "I'm to the left of you?"

[Sparkly]

26. Absolutely.

Especially when that becomes the definition itself!

As in, "Left of left? If you are "left"...then I am way left of you. Thats how I define it."

:crazy:

Edited to add: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2029490#2037175

[Whisp]

27. heh

:rofl:

[Sparkly]

28. I can't imagine WHO would say such a thing!!

:crazy:

[Desertrose]

29. Again.....irony.

[Sparkly]

32. I know!!!

:rofl:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

21. I have always been a Democrat and in the beginning I was just a Democrat. When the party

moved to the right, I still retained my original values. I am now what would be considered a lefty. I'm still the same, but my party isn't.

[Sparkly]

22. I definitely agree with that.

If "center" is a kind of median, you can stay in one place and end up in a different spot in the continuum. Husb2Sparkly often says what you just did, although we think the whole country shifted, not just this party.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. There are many types of leftists, but my personal philosophy is that

business needs to be subject to regulation so that it doesn't run roughshod over all other interests in society. Ideally, megaconglomerates that do nothing but buy up other companies need to be broken up, and there should be a preferential option for cooperatives, partnerships, and sole proprietorships, making it easier for individuals and small groups to realize their dreams. Simplify the tax code and don't be afraid to raise the brackets for high earners and reduce taxes for low-income people.

Certain essential functions should be socialized, such as water and electricity, public infrastructure, health care, and education, and well-funded to maintain quality. Keep Social Security solvent by removing the income cap.

In international affairs, peaceful negotiations and non-intervention are the way to go. In cases of trouble in other parts of the world, let local regional powers take care of it (as when the Western European countries played the principle role in the former Yugoslavia). Dismantle all foreign military bases (why are the Bushies even talking about putting missiles aimed at Russia in Eastern Europe????) and scale back the military to strictly defensive purposes.

Use the hundreds of billions saved by cutting back the military to create well-paying blue collar jobs (thus absorbing the now-unneeded military personnel) rebuilding the nation's infrastructure, constructing mass transit and intercity rail to help wean the country off oil and alleviate global warming, and building affordable housing, to alleviate won of the most pressing and least-talked-about problems this society faces.

Withdraw from all "free" trade agreements with countries of unequal economic status and in making purchases for the federal government, give preference to products manufactured in this country, no matter who owns the company.

[Solon]

24. The terms "Left, Right, and Middle" as they apply in politics have been rendered meaningless...

I got into an argument with a guy a few days ago who said that opposing to build a wall along the Mexican border was a "leftist" idea, his justification was that mostly Democrats oppose building it, so it must have "come from the left" so to speak. Of course, I call opposing to build the wall common sense, but hey, different strokes for different folks.

[ulysses]

30. my thoughts...

Is it NOT about a political philosophy?

Of course it's about a political philosophy. Not solely political, perhaps, but political.

Is there a litmus test of "Leftist" and if so, what is it?

There are as many litmus tests as there are self-identified leftists, I suspect. Still, I think one can expect a standard, at least generally. I'm willing to consider exceptions to rules. Fr. Roy Bourgeois of School of the Americas Watch is, to my mind, a solid leftist, even though, as a Catholic priest, I suspect that he is at least ambivalent towards reproductive choice.

Is it about beliefs, or something else?

Beliefs will work.

Does passion or depth of feeling play a role in the definition?

Not necessarily, although issues lend themselves to passion. This is why, in part, I believe the "middle" to be largely less informed.

Outspokenness? Commitment? Activism?

Again, not necessarily, although if something is a passion it tends toward activism.

Methodology or means of a achieving leftist goals -- is that separate or not?

I don't think methodology is exclusionary.

Is it about militance? And if so, what does militant mean to you?

Again, not necessarily. I know plenty of non-militant leftists, and some militant ones. "Militant", to me, means a willingness to push things beyond "accepted" cultural bounds, not necessarily a willingness to use violence. Again, the SOAW protesters come to mind.

[Whisp]

31. being left to me means

social justice.
justice for all of society not just the have mosts and want even morers - I know this sounds ridiculous - hahhaah. but it's been seeded for a long time for this to become an impossible, foolhardy joke. good work on the part of both sides. wacko looney leftist talk.
access to education, health, freedom of expression (the real kind, not the muffled stuff that is going on now, even here) freedom from sexism, homophobia, racism. etc.

social justice has been hijacked by both parties. Now it's about the elites who are really very anti-social toward the rabble (it always has been, but of late it's been so apparent and up front, so poorly disguised) of both parties that pretend to represent the great unwashed when they rub friendly elbows togehter over their chit chat caviar and face lifts and smug confidence in the system they helped made rot.

Kucinich is the only runner that has any meaning of the word left left.