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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:31 PM
Original message
What is your definition of a Police State?
And by that I mean what are the components that must be in place for that label to apply?
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Roxanne would have to be played on every radio station every day
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. You took my answer!
How droll of you.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
74. LMAO
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well, one criteria would be when a young man is murdered on camera ...
while in custody, and the killers skate.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
30. Maybe, but do you need anything more than that? n/t
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. FL n/t
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King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. When every single cop in the country move to Rhode Island.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. *sputter*
OK.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. The government using the police to opress the population.
Secret phone taps, searches without warrants, removal of habeus corpus, police keeping certain demographics from voting, that sort of thing.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. That's a substantive answer.
How does suspension and punishment of police for brutality or over zealousness fit in? Are you talking about physical searches without warrants? If full Habeas rights are restored, will it still be a police state? If the dems pass a FISA bill restoring warrants for phone taps, will you still consider it a police state? Are those elements themselves enough to make the U.S. a Police state?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. what does this look like to you?
Edited on Fri Oct-12-07 05:46 PM by seemslikeadream
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. "How does suspension and punishment of police for brutality or over zealousness fit in?"
What punishment? Typically police are given slaps on the wrist, and see little or no punishment at all. Just today an all white jury rendered a not guilty verdict to several authority figures who murdered, on video tape, a black child. If it was not police officers that committed these crimes, they'd be arrested and given real jail time. But since they're police they're somehow above the law, and they only get "suspensions" "pending an investigation" then they wind up getting cleared.

"If full Habeas rights are restored, will it still be a police state? If the dems pass a FISA bill restoring warrants for phone taps, will you still consider it a police state?"

Yes, cali, if the qualifications for being a police state go away, then it wouldn't be a police state any more.

"Are those elements themselves enough to make the U.S. a Police state?"

If these things were happening in another country, say Venezuela or Iran, would you call them police states?



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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. I don't call Venezuela a police state
I think the label probably fits re Iran.

Do you have anything to back up your claim that: Typically police are given slaps on the wrist, and see little or no punishment at all.

Was the U.S. a police state when whites in the South and other parts of the country were regularly acquitted for lynching African-Americans, or not tried at all?

Again, any proof that cops regularly get only a slap on the wrist? I genuinely don't know. If you have any statistics to back that up, I'd like to see them.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. If I had statistics, would it really matter with you?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Yes, it matters a lot.

Thanks for the link. Now how about the question about lynchings and the police in the past? Oh, never mind.

And you calling someone else close minded? That's rich.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. "And you calling someone else close minded? "
Just the other day I saw you blaming the Iraqis for the mess in Iraq. So yeah, I guess I kind of am.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Really? I don't recall saying anything like that.
Put up or shut the fuck up. Provide the post where I "blamed the Iraqis for the mess in Iraq."
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Oh, what, you forgot?
Oh no, no. The U.S., god bless us, isn't committing genocide in Iraq. There is genocide in Iraq, but it's Iraq's fault.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1959495#1961848
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. YOU, bornaginthugigan
are a flat out liar. And thanks for providing the link that proves that to the max.

Here's what I said repeatedly in that thread:

" Yes, exactly.
You summed it up well. We shouldn't allow complexity- and this isn't actualy all that complex- to dumb us down.

The U.S., by invading Iraq is responsible for the ensuing ethnic cleaning and genocide, because we unleashed it. And you're right about the ample warnings of it coming to pass."

As I said, a straight out liar.

Find one post on that thread or any other here, that backs up your claim that I blame the Iraqis for ANYTHING.


And after you can't do so, oh never mind.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. Anyone as blitheas you are about engaging in Orwellian distortion of the truth
is beneath contempt. Lie on, McDuff. Lie on.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #47
59. Embarassed at being exposed for having put words in my mouth
and exposed by your own link? Nah, you've way too much bluster for that.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
7. Ask Naomi Wolf
Edited on Fri Oct-12-07 05:45 PM by backscatter712
She's done her research on this.

One thing I got from her new book The End of America: A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot, is that fascism or totalitarianism isn't a boolean. You don't have the situation where one day everything's hunky-dory in a free country, and the next day, it's jackboots and death camps. Fascism infects a society very gradually, and nearly imperceptibly. On the surface, 1933 Germany looked hunky-dory - people still went out for a night on the town, went clubbing, went to see a show. People bitched about Hitler the way we're bitching about Bush and Cheney. There were still civil rights lawyers fighting to protect the rights of those Hitler's regime persecuted. But under the surface, Hitler's government took more and more, and gradually, Germany became a closed society.

That's what people who say "We're not in a police state - I can still bitch about the government!" get wrong. They don't consider that fascism comes a sliver at a time. But the scary thing is that while people say that, the window we have to stop the slide into totalitarianism is closing. We can still raise our voices, but before long, the fascism level will ramp up to the point where people start getting jailed or even executed for raising their voices, and then almost all dissent will stop. It'll be too late.

So if you want to bring this country back from the brink the time is NOW. Fight fascism now, or not at all. That is literally your choice.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. Yes, I know it's not an overnight transformation.
By the way, 1933 Germany was anything but hunky-dory, and it didn't even appear that way. You do realize you've contradicted yourself, right. You say that fascism isn't boolean and then you say the next day it's jackboots and death camps. And fascism doesn't always infect a society very gradually and nearly imperceptibly. Civil rights lawyers were not extant within 2 years of Hitler assuming power. And, in fact, Hitlers tightening of power was not particularly gradual. Do you know what the Nuremberg Laws were, and when they were passed?

If Wolf argues that fascism in Germany was a gradual process, perhaps she's talking relatively or something. We've had bush/cheney in power for almost 7 years. I'm sure you know the status of things under the Reich in 1940.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Oh, jesus christ, cali, read my post again.
Edited on Fri Oct-12-07 05:58 PM by backscatter712
I said that fascism wasn't boolean, it ISN'T a situation that one-day things are "ok" and the next day it's death camps.

Fascism never happens instantly. Yes, it did happen relatively quickly, and yes, there was chaos in the streets prior to Hitler assuming power. But while things were ugly in 1933, things didn't get to their absolute worst, where people got arrested for joking about Hitler, until 1939 or so.

There is always a ramping-up process with fascism.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. Fascism can indeed happen swiftly
and I certainly read your post. You might want to reread it and see what you claimed. Of course things in Germany didn't reach the nadir until about 6 years into it- unless you were a Jew or a Communist or any sort of political dissident. The Nurember laws were passed in 1935, and they were draconian, to say the least. Things got really, really bad for a significant minority in Germany within 2-3 years of Hitler assuming power.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. We're not really arguing about whether fascism can happen swiftly.
Edited on Fri Oct-12-07 06:36 PM by backscatter712
Certainly, it can - we're just arguing about how swiftly. You're right in that the ramp-up was damned steep in Nazi Germany.

IMHO, it's not nearly as swift in the U.S. as it was in Germany, but I am seeing that ramping-up process, and quite frankly it scares the hell out of me.

All I said in my boolean statement is that you can't turn fascism on and off like a switch. Doesn't happen that way.

Oh, and I do sincerely suggest you read Naomi Wolf's new book. It is very good.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #46
57. It's on order at my library
and though I certainly have concerns- chiefly because of unleashed corporatism, I also have a degree of hope that things can change. There is historical precedent for that.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. Ask Mychal Bell
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Speciesamused Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. Just look around
and watch the injustice.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. America is geting there. The water is heating up, slowly.

Secret phone taps, searches without warrants, removal of habeus corpus, police keeping certain demographics from voting, No knock policy, No fly lists, Anti-War activists on Terrorist Lists.

What else?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Police State America New Way of Life
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. The Police State is Closer Than You Think
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts10102005.html

Police states are easier to acquire than Americans appreciate.

The hysterical aftermath of September 11 has put into place the main components of a police state.

Habeas corpus is the greatest protection Americans have against a police state. Habeas corpus ensures that Americans can only be detained by law. They must be charged with offenses, given access to attorneys, and brought to trial. Habeas corpus prevents the despotic practice of picking up a person and holding him indefinitely.

President Bush claims the power to set aside habeas corpus and to dispense with warrants for arrest and with procedures that guarantee court appearance and trial without undue delay. Today in the US, the executive branch claims the power to arrest a citizen on its own initiative and hold the citizen indefinitely. Thus, Americans are no longer protected from arbitrary arrest and indefinite detention.

These new "seize and hold" powers strip the accused of the protective aspects of law and give rein to selectivity and arbitrariness. No warrant is required for arrest, no charges have to be presented before a judge, and no case has to be put before a jury. As the police are unaccountable, whoever is selected for arrest is at the mercy of arbitrariness.

The judiciary has to some extent defended habeas corpus against Bush's attack, but the protection that the principle offers against arbitrary seizure and detention has been breeched. Whether courts can fully restore habeas corpus or whether it continues in weakened form or passes by the wayside remains to be determined.
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Lincoln
also claimed the power to set aside habeas corpus.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Yes, he did.
Your point?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. ...
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
70. And he was wrong and it was reinstated by SCOTUS
"Among the 13,000 people arrested under martial law was a Maryland Secessionist, John Merryman. Immediately, Hon. Roger B. Taney, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States issued a writ of habeas corpus commanding the military to bring Merryman before him. The military refused to follow the writ. Justice Taney, in Ex parte MERRYMAN, then ruled the suspension of habeas corpus unconstitutional because the writ could not be suspended without an Act of Congress. President Lincoln and the military ignored Justice Taney's ruling."

"Finally, in 1866, after the war, the Supreme Court officially restored habeas corpus in Ex-parte Milligan, ruling that military trials in areas where the civil courts were capable of functioning were illegal."

Unlike the Congressional Dems of today who are content to allow the pukes to suspend it "legally" and allow it to remain suspended.

Those FUCKS should have filibustered the MCA instead of fucking voting for it...

Here's a list of the Senate Traitors:

Carper (D-DE)
Johnson (D-SD)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Stabenow (D-MI)


And the lone republican Patriot:
Chafee (R-RI)



and the House Traitors:

Aye NJ-1 Andrews, Robert
Aye GA-12 Barrow, John
Aye IL-8 Bean, Melissa
Aye GA-2 Bishop, Sanford
Aye OK-2 Boren, Dan
Aye IA-3 Boswell, Leonard
Aye FL-2 Boyd, F.
Aye OH-13 Brown, Sherrod
Aye KY-6 Chandler, Ben
Aye AL-5 Cramer, Robert
Aye TX-28 Cuellar, Henry
Aye AL-7 Davis, Artur
Aye TN-4 Davis, Lincoln
Aye TX-17 Edwards, Thomas
Aye NC-2 Etheridge, Bob
Aye TN-9 Ford, Harold
Aye TN-6 Gordon, Barton
Aye SD-0 Herseth Sandlin, Stephanie
Aye NY-27 Higgins, Brian
Aye PA-17 Holden, Tim
Aye GA-3 Marshall, James
Aye UT-2 Matheson, Jim
Aye NC-7 McIntyre, Mike
Aye KS-3 Moore, Dennis
Aye MN-7 Peterson, Collin
Aye ND-0 Pomeroy, Earl
Aye AR-4 Ross, Mike
Aye CO-3 Salazar, John
Aye GA-13 Scott, David
Aye SC-5 Spratt, John
Aye TN-8 Tanner, John
Aye MS-4 Taylor, Gene


The only 7 repubs who voted right:
Nay MD-6 Bartlett, Roscoe
Nay MD-1 Gilchrest, Wayne
Nay NC-3 Jones, Walter
Nay OH-14 LaTourette, Steven
Nay IA-2 Leach, James
Nay KS-1 Moran, Jerry
Nay TX-14 Paul, Ronald



And the Dems who didn't vote:
No Vote HI-2 Case, Ed
No Vote IL-17 Evans, Lane
No Vote PA-2 Fattah, Chaka
No Vote GA-5 Lewis, John
No Vote MA-5 Meehan, Martin
No Vote OH-6 Strickland, Ted
No Vote MS-2 Thompson, Bennie
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. Ummmm.....
Would a Police State have "pens" erected for anti-war protesters?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
45. Could be. But do you think that's the only element needed?
Pinto named Burma as an example of a police state. Do you think there are degrees of police state. What elements are in place in Burma that are in place here?
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
13. Burma.
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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
36. Exactly right.
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
14. there are several
1) no freedom of speech. if you say anything bad about the government or its leaders you are arrested
2) no freedom of movement. you can be stopped at any moment and asked to produce your "papers"
3) no freedom of religion. you are jailed for being a particular religion or perhaps claiming any religion at all.
4) no freedom of choice. you are told by the government where you are going to work. forced abortions, etc.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. on a basic level
These would be some warning signs:

-When you spend your whole day wondering whether something you said, read or signed will get you arrested

-Being afraid of whether you'll be arrested because your neighbor accused you of something

-When you're afraid of your justice system, because they don't let you challenge the charges against your or don't allow you to see the evidence against you

-When your gov't makes it clear that questioning them is treasonous

My definition of a police state is constant fear of what your gov't could do to you.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
20. Is America a Police State?
Congressman Ron Paul
U.S. House of Representatives
June 27, 2002



Is America a Police State?

Mr. Speaker:

Most Americans believe we live in dangerous times, and I must agree. Today I want to talk about how I see those dangers and what Congress ought to do about them.

Of course, the Monday-morning quarterbacks are now explaining, with political overtones, what we should have done to prevent the 9/11 tragedy. Unfortunately, in doing so, foreign policy changes are never considered.

I have, for more than two decades, been severely critical of our post-World War II foreign policy. I have perceived it to be not in our best interest and have believed that it presented a serious danger to our security.

For the record, in January of 2000 I stated the following on this floor:

Our commercial interests and foreign policy are no longer separate...as bad as it is that average Americans are forced to subsidize such a system, we additionally are placed in greater danger because of our arrogant policy of bombing nations that do not submit to our wishes. This generates hatred directed toward America ...and exposes us to a greater threat of terrorism, since this is the only vehicle our victims can use to retaliate against a powerful military state...the cost in terms of lost liberties and unnecessary exposure to terrorism is difficult to assess, but in time, it will become apparent to all of us that foreign interventionism is of no benefit to American citizens, but instead is a threat to our liberties.

Again, let me remind you I made these statements on the House floor in January 2000. Unfortunately, my greatest fears and warnings have been borne out.

I believe my concerns are as relevant today as they were then. We should move with caution in this post-9/11 period so we do not make our problems worse overseas while further undermining our liberties at home.

So far our post-9/11 policies have challenged the rule of law here at home, and our efforts against the al Qaeda have essentially come up empty-handed. The best we can tell now, instead of being in one place, the members of the al Qaeda are scattered around the world, with more of them in allied Pakistan than in Afghanistan. Our efforts to find our enemies have put the CIA in 80 different countries. The question that we must answer some day is whether we can catch enemies faster than we make new ones. So far it appears we are losing.

As evidence mounts that we have achieved little in reducing the terrorist threat, more diversionary tactics will be used. The big one will be to blame Saddam Hussein for everything and initiate a major war against Iraq, which will only generate even more hatred toward America from the Muslim world.

But, Mr. Speaker, my subject today is whether America is a police state. I'm sure the large majority of Americans would answer this in the negative. Most would associate military patrols, martial law and summary executions with a police state, something obviously not present in our everyday activities. However, those with knowledge of Ruby Ridge, Mount Carmel and other such incidents may have a different opinion.

The principal tool for sustaining a police state, even the most militant, is always economic control and punishment by denying disobedient citizens such things as jobs or places to live, and by levying fines and imprisonment. The military is more often used in the transition phase to a totalitarian state. Maintenance for long periods is usually accomplished through economic controls on commercial transactions, the use of all property, and political dissent. Peaceful control through these efforts can be achieved without storm troopers on our street corners.

Terror and fear are used to achieve complacency and obedience, especially when citizens are deluded into believing they are still a free people. The changes, they are assured, will be minimal, short-lived, and necessary, such as those that occur in times of a declared war. Under these conditions, most citizens believe that once the war is won, the restrictions on their liberties will be reversed. For the most part, however, after a declared war is over, the return to normalcy is never complete. In an undeclared war, without a precise enemy and therefore no precise ending, returning to normalcy can prove illusory.

We have just concluded a century of wars, declared and undeclared, while at the same time responding to public outcries for more economic equity. The question, as a result of these policies, is: "Are we already living in a police state?" If we are, what are we going to do about it? If we are not, we need to know if there's any danger that we're moving in that direction.

Most police states, surprisingly, come about through the democratic process with majority support. During a crisis, the rights of individuals and the minority are more easily trampled, which is more likely to condition a nation to become a police state than a military coup. Promised benefits initially seem to exceed the cost in dollars or lost freedom. When people face terrorism or great fear- from whatever source- the tendency to demand economic and physical security over liberty and self-reliance proves irresistible. The masses are easily led to believe that security and liberty are mutually exclusive, and demand for security far exceeds that for liberty.

Once it's discovered that the desire for both economic and physical security that prompted the sacrifice of liberty inevitably led to the loss of prosperity and no real safety, it's too late. Reversing the trend from authoritarian rule toward a freer society becomes very difficult, takes a long time, and entails much suffering. Although dissolution of the Soviet empire was relatively non-violent at the end, millions suffered from police suppression and economic deprivation in the decades prior to 1989.

But what about here in the United States? With respect to a police state, where are we and where are we going?



Let me make a few observations:

Our government already keeps close tabs on just about everything we do and requires official permission for nearly all of our activities.

One might take a look at our Capitol for any evidence of a police state. We see: barricades, metal detectors, police, military soldiers at times, dogs, ID badges required for every move, vehicles checked at airports and throughout the Capitol. The people are totally disarmed, except for the police and the criminals. But worse yet, surveillance cameras in Washington are everywhere to ensure our safety.

The terrorist attacks only provided the cover for the do-gooders who have been planning for a long time before last September to monitor us "for our own good." Cameras are used to spy on our drug habits, on our kids at school, on subway travelers, and on visitors to every government building or park. There's not much evidence of an open society in Washington, DC, yet most folks do not complain- anything goes if it's for government-provided safety and security.

If this huge amount of information and technology is placed in the hands of the government to catch the bad guys, one naturally asks, What's the big deal? But it should be a big deal, because it eliminates the enjoyment of privacy that a free society holds dear. The personal information of law-abiding citizens can be used for reasons other than safety- including political reasons. Like gun control, people control hurts law-abiding citizens much more than the law-breakers.

Social Security numbers are used to monitor our daily activities. The numbers are given at birth, and then are needed when we die and for everything in between. This allows government record keeping of monstrous proportions, and accommodates the thugs who would steal others' identities for criminal purposes. This invasion of privacy has been compounded by the technology now available to those in government who enjoy monitoring and directing the activities of others. Loss of personal privacy was a major problem long before 9/11.

Centralized control and regulations are required in a police state. Community and individual state regulations are not as threatening as the monolith of rules and regulations written by Congress and the federal bureaucracy. Law and order has been federalized in many ways and we are moving inexorably in that direction.

Almost all of our economic activities depend upon receiving the proper permits from the federal government. Transactions involving guns, food, medicine, smoking, drinking, hiring, firing, wages, politically correct speech, land use, fishing, hunting, buying a house, business mergers and acquisitions, selling stocks and bonds, and farming all require approval and strict regulation from our federal government. If this is not done properly and in a timely fashion, economic penalties and even imprisonment are likely consequences.

Because government pays for much of our health care, it's conveniently argued that any habits or risk-taking that could harm one's health are the prerogative of the federal government, and are to be regulated by explicit rules to keep medical-care costs down. This same argument is used to require helmets for riding motorcycles and bikes.

Not only do we need a license to drive, but we also need special belts, bags, buzzers, seats and environmentally dictated speed limits- or a policemen will be pulling us over to levy a fine, and he will be toting a gun for sure.

The states do exactly as they're told by the federal government, because they are threatened with the loss of tax dollars being returned to their state- dollars that should have never been sent to DC in the first place, let alone used to extort obedience to a powerful federal government.

Over 80,000 federal bureaucrats now carry guns to make us toe the line and to enforce the thousands of laws and tens of thousands of regulations that no one can possibly understand. We don't see the guns, but we all know they're there, and we all know we can't fight "City Hall," especially if it's "Uncle Sam."

All 18-year-old males must register to be ready for the next undeclared war. If they don't, men with guns will appear and enforce this congressional mandate. "Involuntary servitude" was banned by the 13th Amendment, but courts don't apply this prohibition to the servitude of draftees or those citizens required to follow the dictates of the IRS- especially the employers of the country, who serve as the federal government's chief tax collectors and information gatherers. Fear is the tool used to intimidate most Americans to comply to the tax code by making examples of celebrities. Leona Helmsley and Willie Nelson know how this process works.

Economic threats against business establishments are notorious. Rules and regulations from the EPA, the ADA, the SEC, the LRB, OSHA, etc. terrorize business owners into submission, and those charged accept their own guilt until they can prove themselves innocent. Of course, it turns out it's much more practical to admit guilt and pay the fine. This serves the interest of the authoritarians because it firmly establishes just who is in charge.

Information leaked from a government agency like the FDA can make or break a company within minutes. If information is leaked, even inadvertently, a company can be destroyed, and individuals involved in revealing government-monopolized information can be sent to prison. Even though economic crimes are serious offenses in the United States, violent crimes sometimes evoke more sympathy and fewer penalties. Just look at the O.J. Simpson case as an example.

Efforts to convict Bill Gates and others like him of an economic crime are astounding, considering his contribution to economic progress, while sources used to screen out terrorist elements from our midst are tragically useless. If business people are found guilty of even the suggestion of collusion in the marketplace, huge fines and even imprisonment are likely consequences.

Price fixing is impossible to achieve in a free market. Under today's laws, talking to, or consulting with, competitors can be easily construed as "price fixing" and involve a serious crime, even with proof that the so-called collusion never generated monopoly-controlled prices or was detrimental to consumers.

Lawfully circumventing taxes, even sales taxes, can lead to serious problems if a high-profile person can be made an example.

One of the most onerous controls placed on American citizens is the control of speech through politically correct legislation. Derogatory remarks or off-color jokes are justification for firings, demotions, and the destruction of political careers. The movement toward designating penalties based on the category to which victims belong, rather the nature of the crime itself, has the thought police patrolling the airways and byways. Establishing relative rights and special penalties for subjective motivation is a dangerous trend.

All our financial activities are subject to "legal" searches without warrants and without probable cause. Tax collection, drug usage, and possible terrorist activities "justify" the endless accumulation of information on all Americans.

Government control of medicine has prompted the establishment of the National Medical Data Bank. For efficiency reasons, it is said, the government keeps our medical records for our benefit. This, of course, is done with vague and useless promises that this information will always remain confidential- just like all the FBI information in the past!

Personal privacy, the sine qua non of liberty, no longer exists in the United States. Ruthless and abusive use of all this information accumulated by the government is yet to come. The Patriot Act has given unbelievable power to listen, read, and monitor all our transactions without a search warrant being issued after affirmation of probably cause. "Sneak and peak" and blanket searches are now becoming more frequent every day. What have we allowed to happen to the 4th amendment?

It may be true that the average American does not feel intimidated by the encroachment of the police state. I'm sure our citizens are more tolerant of what they see as mere nuisances because they have been deluded into believing all this government supervision is necessary and helpful- and besides they are living quite comfortably, material wise. However the reaction will be different once all this new legislation we're passing comes into full force, and the material comforts that soften our concerns for government regulations are decreased. This attitude then will change dramatically, but the trend toward the authoritarian state will be difficult to reverse.

What government gives with one hand- as it attempts to provide safety and security- it must, at the same time, take away with two others. When the majority recognizes that the monetary cost and the results of our war against terrorism and personal freedoms are a lot less than promised, it may be too late.

I'm sure all my concerns are unconvincing to the vast majority of Americans, who not only are seeking but also are demanding they be made safe from any possible attack from anybody, ever. I grant you this is a reasonable request.

The point is, however, there may be a much better way of doing it. We must remember, we don't sit around and worry that some Canadian citizen is about to walk into New York City and set off a nuclear weapon. We must come to understand the real reason is that there's a difference between the Canadians and all our many friends and the Islamic radicals. And believe me, we're not the target because we're "free and prosperous".

The argument made for more government controls here at home and expansionism overseas to combat terrorism is simple and goes like this: "If we're not made safe from potential terrorists, property and freedom have no meaning." It is argued that first we must have life and physical and economic security, with continued abundance, then we'll talk about freedom.

It reminds me of the time I was soliciting political support from a voter and was boldly put down: "Ron," she said, "I wish you would lay off this freedom stuff; it's all nonsense. We're looking for a Representative who will know how to bring home the bacon and help our area, and you're not that person." Believe me, I understand that argument; it's just that I don't agree that is what should be motivating us here in the Congress.

That's not the way it works. Freedom does not preclude security. Making security the highest priority can deny prosperity and still fail to provide the safety we all want.

The Congress would never agree that we are a police state. Most members, I'm sure, would argue otherwise. But we are all obligated to decide in which direction we are going. If we're moving toward a system that enhances individual liberty and justice for all, my concerns about a police state should be reduced or totally ignored. Yet, if, by chance, we're moving toward more authoritarian control than is good for us, and moving toward a major war of which we should have no part, we should not ignore the dangers. If current policies are permitting a serious challenge to our institutions that allow for our great abundance, we ignore them at great risk for future generations.

That's why the post-9/11 analysis and subsequent legislation are crucial to the survival of those institutions that made America great. We now are considering a major legislative proposal dealing with this dilemma- the new Department of Homeland Security- and we must decide if it truly serves the interests of America.

Since the new department is now a forgone conclusion, why should anyone bother to record a dissent? Because it's the responsibility of all of us to speak the truth to our best ability, and if there are reservations about what we're doing, we should sound an alarm and warn the people of what is to come.

In times of crisis, nearly unanimous support for government programs is usual and the effects are instantaneous. Discovering the error of our ways and waiting to see the unintended consequences evolve takes time and careful analysis. Reversing the bad effects is slow and tedious and fraught with danger. People would much prefer to hear platitudes than the pessimism of a flawed policy.

Understanding the real reason why we were attacked is crucial to crafting a proper response. I know of no one who does not condemn the attacks of 9/11. Disagreement as to the cause and the proper course of action should be legitimate in a free society such as ours. If not, we're not a free society.

Not only do I condemn the vicious acts of 9/11, but also, out of deep philosophic and moral commitment, I have pledged never to use any form of aggression to bring about social or economic changes.

But I am deeply concerned about what has been done and what we are yet to do in the name of security against the threat of terrorism.

Political propagandizing is used to get all of us to toe the line and be good "patriots," supporting every measure suggested by the administration. We are told that preemptive strikes, torture, military tribunals, suspension of habeas corpus, executive orders to wage war, and sacrificing privacy with a weakened 4th Amendment are the minimum required to save our country from the threat of terrorism.

Who's winning this war anyway?

To get popular support for these serious violations of our traditional rule of law requires that people be kept in a state of fear. The episode of spreading undue concern about the possibility of a dirty bomb being exploded in Washington without any substantiation of an actual threat is a good example of excessive fear being generated by government officials.

To add insult to injury, when he made this outlandish announcement, our Attorney General was in Moscow. Maybe if our FBI spent more time at home, we would get more for the money we pump into this now- discredited organization. Our FBI should be gathering information here at home, and the thousands of agents overseas should return. We don't need these agents competing overseas and confusing the intelligence apparatus of the CIA or the military.

I'm concerned that the excess fear, created by the several hundred al Qaeda functionaries willing to sacrifice their lives for their demented goals, is driving us to do to ourselves what the al Qaeda themselves could never do to us by force.

So far the direction is clear: we are legislating bigger and more intrusive government here at home and are allowing our President to pursue much more military adventurism abroad. These pursuits are overwhelmingly supported by Members of Congress, the media, and the so-called intellectual community, and questioned only by a small number of civil libertarians and anti-imperial, anti-war advocates.

The main reason why so many usually levelheaded critics of bad policy accept this massive increase in government power is clear. They, for various reasons, believe the official explanation of "Why us?" The several hundred al Qaeda members, we were told, hate us because: "We're rich, we're free, we enjoy materialism, and the purveyors of terror are jealous and envious, creating the hatred that drives their cause. They despise our Christian-Judaic values and this, is the sole reason why they are willing to die for their cause." For this to be believed, one must also be convinced that the perpetrators lied to the world about why they attacked us.

The al Qaeda leaders say they hate us because:

-We support Western puppet regimes in Arab countries for commercial reasons and against the wishes of the populace of these countries.

-This partnership allows a military occupation, the most confrontational being in Saudi Arabia, that offends their sense of pride and violates their religious convictions by having a foreign military power on their holy land. We refuse to consider how we might feel if China's navy occupied the Gulf of Mexico for the purpose of protecting "their oil" and had air bases on U.S. territory.

-We show extreme bias in support of one side in the fifty-plus-year war going on in the Middle East.

What if the al Qaeda is telling the truth and we ignore it? If we believe only the official line from the administration and proceed to change our whole system and undermine our constitutional rights, we may one day wake up to find that the attacks have increased, the numbers of those willing to commit suicide for their cause have grown, our freedoms are diminished, and all this has contributed to making our economic problems worse. The dollar cost of this "war" could turn out to be exorbitant, and the efficiency of our markets can be undermined by the compromises placed on our liberties.

Sometimes it almost seems that our policies inadvertently are actually based on a desire to make ourselves "less free and less prosperous"- those conditions that are supposed to have prompted the attacks. I'm convinced we must pay more attention to the real cause of the attacks of last year and challenge the explanations given us.



The question that one day must be answered is this:

What if we had never placed our troops in Saudi Arabia and had involved ourselves in the Middle East war in an even-handed fashion. Would it have been worth it if this would have prevented the events of 9/11?

If we avoid the truth, we will be far less well off than if we recognize that just maybe there is some truth in the statements made by the leaders of those who perpetrated the atrocities. If they speak the truth about the real cause, changing our foreign policy from foreign military interventionism around the globe supporting an American empire would make a lot of sense. It could reduce tensions, save money, preserve liberty and preserve our economic system.

This, for me, is not a reactive position coming out of 9/11, but rather is an argument I've made for decades, claiming that meddling in the affairs of others is dangerous to our security and actually reduces our ability to defend ourselves.

This in no way precludes pursuing those directly responsible for the attacks and dealing with them accordingly- something that we seem to have not yet done. We hear more talk of starting a war in Iraq than in achieving victory against the international outlaws that instigated the attacks on 9/11. Rather than pursuing war against countries that were not directly responsible for the attacks, we should consider the judicious use of Marque and Reprisal.

I'm sure that a more enlightened approach to our foreign policy will prove elusive. Financial interests of our international corporations, oil companies, and banks, along with the military-industrial complex, are sure to remain a deciding influence on our policies.

Besides, even if my assessments prove to be true, any shift away from foreign militarism- like bringing our troops home- would now be construed as yielding to the terrorists. It just won't happen. This is a powerful point and the concern that we might appear to be capitulating is legitimate.

Yet how long should we deny the truth, especially if this denial only makes us more vulnerable? Shouldn't we demand the courage and wisdom of our leaders to do the right thing, in spite of the political shortcomings?

President Kennedy faced an even greater threat in October 1962, and from a much more powerful force. The Soviet/Cuban terrorist threat with nuclear missiles only 90 miles off our shores was wisely defused by Kennedy's capitulating and removing missiles from Turkey on the Soviet border. Kennedy deserved the praise he received for the way he handled the nuclear standoff with the Soviets. This concession most likely prevented a nuclear exchange and proved that taking a step back from a failed policy is beneficial, yet how one does so is crucial. The answer is to do it diplomatically- that's what diplomats are supposed to do.

Maybe there is no real desire to remove the excuse for our worldwide imperialism, especially our current new expansion into central Asia or the domestic violations of our civil liberties. Today's conditions may well be exactly what our world commercial interests want. It's now easy for us to go into the Philippines, Columbia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, or wherever in pursuit of terrorists. No questions are asked by the media or the politicians- only cheers. Put in these terms, who can object? We all despise the tactics of the terrorists, so the nature of the response is not to be questioned!

A growing number of Americans are concluding that the threat we now face comes more as a consequence of our foreign policy than because the bad guys envy our freedoms and prosperity. How many terrorist attacks have been directed toward Switzerland, Australia, Canada, or Sweden? They too are rich and free, and would be easy targets, but the Islamic fundamentalists see no purpose in doing so.

There's no purpose in targeting us unless there's a political agenda, which there surely is. To deny that this political agenda exists jeopardizes the security of this country. Pretending something to be true that is not is dangerous.

It's a definite benefit for so many to recognize that our $40 billion annual investment in intelligence gathering prior to 9/11 was a failure. Now a sincere desire exists to rectify these mistakes. That's good, unless, instead of changing the role for the CIA and the FBI, all the past mistakes are made worse by spending more money and enlarging the bureaucracies to do the very same thing without improving their efficiency or changing their goals. Unfortunately that is what is likely to happen.

One of the major shortcomings that led to the 9/11 tragedies was that the responsibility for protecting commercial airlines was left to the government, the FAA, the FBI, the CIA, and the INS. And they failed. A greater sense of responsibility for the owners to provide security is what was needed. Guns in the cockpit would have most likely prevented most of the deaths that occurred on that fateful day.

But what does our government do? It firmly denies airline pilots the right to defend their planes, and we federalize the security screeners and rely on F16s to shoot down airliners if they are hijacked.

Security screeners, many barely able to speak English, spend endless hours harassing pilots, confiscating dangerous mustache scissors, mauling grandmothers and children, and pestering Al Gore, while doing nothing about the influx of aliens from Middle-Eastern countries who are on designated watch lists.

We pump up the military in India and Pakistan, ignore all the warnings about Saudi Arabia, and plan a secret war against Iraq to make sure no one starts asking where Osama bin Laden is. We think we know where Saddam Hussein lives, so let's go get him instead.

Since our government bureaucracy failed, why not get rid of it instead of adding to it? If we had proper respect and understood how private property owners effectively defend themselves, we could apply those rules to the airlines and achieve something worthwhile.

If our immigration policies have failed us, when will we defy the politically correct fanatics and curtail the immigration of those individuals on the highly suspect lists? Instead of these changes, all we hear is that the major solution will come by establishing a huge new federal department- the Department of Homeland Security.

According to all the pundits, we are expected to champion this big-government approach, and if we don't jolly well like it, we will be tagged "unpatriotic." The fear that permeates our country cries out for something to be done in response to almost daily warnings of the next attack. If it's not a real attack, then it's a theoretical one; one where the bomb could well be only in the mind of a potential terrorist.

Where is all this leading us? Are we moving toward a safer and more secure society? I think not. All the discussions of these proposed plans since 9/11 have been designed to condition the American people to accept major changes in our political system. Some of the changes being made are unnecessary, and others are outright dangerous to our way of life.

There is no need for us to be forced to choose between security and freedom. Giving up freedom does not provide greater security. Preserving and better understanding freedom can. Sadly today, many are anxious to give up freedom in response to real and generated fears..

The plans for a first strike supposedly against a potential foreign government should alarm all Americans. If we do not resist this power the President is assuming, our President, through executive order, can start a war anyplace, anytime, against anyone he chooses, for any reason, without congressional approval. This is a tragic usurpation of the war power by the executive branch from the legislative branch, with Congress being all too accommodating.

Removing the power of the executive branch to wage war, as was done through our revolution and the writing of the Constitution, is now being casually sacrificed on the altar of security. In a free society, and certainly in the constitutional republic we have been given, it should never be assumed that the President alone can take it upon himself to wage war whenever he pleases.

The publicly announced plan to murder Saddam Hussein in the name of our national security draws nary a whimper from Congress. Support is overwhelming, without a thought as to its legality, morality, constitutionality, or its practicality. Murdering Saddam Hussein will surely generate many more fanatics ready to commit their lives to suicide terrorist attacks against us.

Our CIA attempt to assassinate Castro backfired with the subsequent assassination of our president. Killing Saddam Hussein, just for the sake of killing him, obviously will increase the threat against us, not diminish it. It makes no sense. But our warriors argue that someday he may build a bomb, someday he might use it, maybe against us or some yet-unknown target. This policy further radicalizes the Islamic fundamentalists against us, because from their viewpoint, our policy is driven by Israeli, not U.S. security interests.

Planned assassination, a preemptive strike policy without proof of any threat, and a vague definition of terrorism may work for us as long as we're king of the hill, but one must assume every other nation will naturally use our definition of policy as justification for dealing with their neighbors. India can justify a first strike against Pakistan, China against India or Taiwan, as well as many other such examples. This new policy, if carried through, will make the world much less safe.

This new doctrine is based on proving a negative, which is impossible to do, especially when we're dealing with a subjective interpretation of plans buried in someone's head. To those who suggest a more restrained approach on Iraq and killing Saddam Hussein, the war hawks retort, saying: "Prove to me that Saddam Hussein might not do something someday directly harmful to the United States." Since no one can prove this, the warmongers shout: "Let's march on Baghdad."

We all can agree that aggression should be met with force and that providing national security is an ominous responsibility that falls on Congress' shoulders. But avoiding useless and unjustifiable wars that threaten our whole system of government and security seems to be the more prudent thing to do.

Since September 11th, Congress has responded with a massive barrage of legislation not seen since Roosevelt took over in 1933. Where Roosevelt dealt with trying to provide economic security, today's legislation deals with personal security from any and all imaginable threats, at any cost- dollar or freedom-wise. These efforts include:

-The Patriot Act, which undermines the 4th Amendment with the establishment of an overly broad and dangerous definition of terrorism.

- The Financial Anti-Terrorism Act, which expands the government's surveillance of the financial transactions of all American citizens through increased power to FinCen and puts back on track the plans to impose "Know Your Customer" rules on all Americans, which had been sought after for years.

-The airline bailout bill gave $15 billion, rushed through shortly after 9/11.

- The federalization of all airline security employees.

-Military tribunals set up by executive order-undermining the rights of those accused- rights established as far back in history as 1215.

- Unlimited retention of suspects without charges being made, even when a crime has not been committed- a serious precedent that one day may well be abused.

- Relaxation of FBI surveillance guidelines of all political activity.

- Essentially monopolizing vaccines and treatment for infectious diseases, permitting massive quarantines and mandates for vaccinations.

Almost all significant legislation since 9/11 has been rushed through in a tone of urgency with reference to the tragedy, including the $190 billion farm bill as well as fast track.

Guarantees to all insurance companies now are moving quickly through the Congress.
Increasing the billions already flowing into foreign aid is now being planned as our interventions overseas continue to grow and expand.

There's no reason to believe that the massive increase in spending, both domestic and foreign, along with the massive expansion of the size of the federal government, will slow any time soon. The deficit is exploding as the economy weakens. When the government sector drains the resources needed for capital expansion, it contributes to the loss of confidence needed for growth.

Even without evidence that any good has come from this massive expansion of government power, Congress is in the process of establishing a huge new bureaucracy, the Department of Homeland Security, hoping miraculously through centralization to make all these efforts productive and worthwhile.

There is no evidence, however, that government bureaucracy and huge funding can solve our nation's problems. The likelihood is that the unintended consequences of this new proposal will diminish our freedoms and do nothing to enhance our security.

Opposing currently proposed and recently passed legislation does not mean one is complacent about terrorism or homeland security. The truth is that there are alternative solutions to these problems we face, without resorting to expanding the size and scope of government at the expense of liberty.

As tempting as it may seem, a government is incapable of preventing crimes. On occasion, with luck it might succeed. But the failure to tip us off about 9/11, after spending $40 billion annually on intelligence gathering, should have surprised no one. Governments, by nature, are very inefficient institutions. We must accept this as fact.

I'm sure that our intelligence agencies had the information available to head off 9/11, but bureaucratic blundering and turf wars prevented the information from being useful. But, the basic principle is wrong. City policeman can't and should not be expected to try to preempt crimes. That would invite massive intrusions into the everyday activities of every law-abiding citizen.

But that's exactly what our recent legislation is doing. It's a wrong-headed goal, no matter how wonderful it may sound. The policemen in the inner cities patrol their beats, but crime is still rampant. In the rural areas of America, literally millions of our citizens are safe and secure in their homes, though miles from any police protection. They are safe because even the advantage of isolation doesn't entice the burglar to rob a house when he knows a shotgun sits inside the door waiting to be used. But this is a right denied many of our citizens living in the inner cities.

The whole idea of government preventing crime is dangerous. To prevent crimes in our homes or businesses, government would need cameras to spy on our every move; to check for illegal drug use, wife beating, child abuse, or tax evasion. They would need cameras, not only on our streets and in our homes, but our phones, internet, and travels would need to be constantly monitored- just to make sure we are not a terrorist, drug dealer, or tax evader.

This is the assumption now used at our airports, rather than allowing privately owned airlines to profile their passengers to assure the safety for which the airline owners ought to assume responsibility. But, of course, this would mean guns in the cockpit. I am certain that this approach to safety and security would be far superior to the rules that existed prior to 9/11 and now have been made much worse in the past nine months.

This method of providing security emphasizes private-property ownership and responsibility of the owners to protect that property. But the right to bear arms must also be included. The fact that the administration is opposed to guns in the cockpit and the fact that the airline owners are more interested in bailouts and insurance protection mean that we're just digging a bigger hole for ourselves- ignoring liberty and expecting the government to provide something it's not capable of doing.

Because of this, in combination with a foreign policy that generates more hatred toward us and multiplies the number of terrorists that seek vengeance, I am deeply concerned that Washington's efforts so far sadly have only made us more vulnerable. I'm convinced that the newly proposed Department of Homeland Security will do nothing to make us more secure, but it will make us all a lot poorer and less free. If the trend continues, the Department of Homeland Security may well be the vehicle used for a much more ruthless control of the people by some future administration than any of us dreams. Let's pray that this concern will never materialize.

America is not now a ruthless authoritarian police state. But our concerns ought to be whether we have laid the foundation of a more docile police state. The love of liberty has been so diminished that we tolerate intrusions into our privacies today that would have been abhorred just a few years ago. Tolerance of inconvenience to our liberties is not uncommon when both personal and economic fear persists. The sacrifices being made to our liberties will surely usher in a system of government that will please only those who enjoy being in charge of running other people's lives.

Mr. Speaker, what, then, is the answer to the question: "Is America a Police State?" My answer is: "Maybe not yet, but it is fast approaching." The seeds have been sown and many of our basic protections against tyranny have been and are constantly being undermined. The post-9/11 atmosphere here in Congress has provided ample excuse to concentrate on safety at the expense of liberty, failing to recognize that we cannot have one without the other.

When the government keeps detailed records on every move we make and we either need advance permission for everything we do or are penalized for not knowing what the rules are, America will be declared a police state. Personal privacy for law-abiding citizens will be a thing of the past. Enforcement of laws against economic and political crimes will exceed that of violent crimes (just look at what's coming under the new FEC law). War will be the prerogative of the administration. Civil liberties will be suspended for suspects, and their prosecution will not be carried out by an independent judiciary. In a police state, this becomes common practice rather than a rare incident.

Some argue that we already live in a police state, and Congress doesn't have the foggiest notion of what they're dealing with. So forget it and use your energy for your own survival. Some advise that the momentum towards the monolithic state cannot be reversed. Possibly that's true, but I'm optimistic that if we do the right thing and do not capitulate to popular fancy and the incessant war propaganda, the onslaught of statism can be reversed.

To do so, we as a people will once again have to dedicate ourselves to establishing the proper role a government plays in a free society. That does not involve the redistribution of wealth through force. It does not mean that government dictates the moral and religious standards of the people. It does not allow us to police the world by involving ourselves in every conflict as if it's our responsibility to manage a world American empire.

But it does mean government has a proper role in guaranteeing free markets, protecting voluntary and religious choices and guaranteeing private property ownership, while punishing those who violate these rules- whether foreign or domestic.

In a free society, the government's job is simply to protect liberty- the people do the rest. Let's not give up on a grand experiment that has provided so much for so many. Let's reject the police state.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. Ron Paul?
I would hope we could do better than Mr. Abolish Government, except in cases of national defense and corporate interests.

This is the same guy that thinks funding the missile defense program is a good idea and that environmental controls are unnecessary.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. just another view that's all
it's just not the looney left that feels this way
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. It's the looney right, too?
:)
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Fun with Fascism
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
55. While I do not disagree that the signs are there...
I do think that signs of fascism have been historically cyclical in this country. This is, after all, home of slavery, the decimation of Native American populations, the Robber Baron era, "separate but equal", McCarthy, and many other examples that would give today a run for its money.

I also think that a lot of what Bush, Cheney, et al, have done can be reversed by a Democratic administration with a solid Democratic Congress. I could be dreaming, too.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #55
71. Uh, you're dreaming...

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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
22. Um.....
Would a Police State be the kind of place where a citizen could get arrested for wearing a NO WAR tee shirt?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
48. Would a police state be the kind of place where
a citizen would be awarded damages for said arrest? Sorry, that's not even evidence for a police state. And yes, I think there are disturbing signs. That's not one of them.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #48
75. A police state would be somewhere
Edited on Fri Oct-12-07 10:29 PM by ProudDad
where such a bullshit arrest can be made in the first place!!!

Or be even contemplated...


Police state means one's righteous choices are stifled and chilled by fear of arrest (or in the case of the U.S. -- being hauled off to Guantanamo as an "enemy combatant"...


What was your purpose in starting this thread anyway?
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #22
52. A police state would be one where 100k people could not march on the Capitol
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
79. In some cases absolutely
and it has in osme countries
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
28. Keith Olberman blasting Rumsfeld's Fascism Comment
Keith Olberman blasting Rumsfeld's Fascism Comment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r98BByBrhdA
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
35. Untold History of Controlling Masses Through Manipulation of Unconscious Desires
http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=8339

The Century of the Self
The Untold History of Controlling the Masses Through the Manipulation of Unconscious Desires

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.

We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized." - Edward Bernays

THE CENTURY OF THE SELF

Adam Curtis' acclaimed series examines the rise of the all-consuming self against the backdrop of the Freud dynasty.

To many in both politics and business, the triumph of the self is the ultimate expression of democracy, where power has finally moved to the people. Certainly the people may feel they are in charge, but are they really? The Century of the Self tells the untold and sometimes controversial story of the growth of the mass-consumer society in Britain and the United States. How was the all-consuming self created, by whom, and in whose interests?

The Freud dynasty is at the heart of this compelling social history. Sigmund Freud, founder of psychoanalysis; Edward Bernays, who invented public relations; Anna Freud, Sigmund's devoted daughter; and present-day PR guru and Sigmund's great grandson, Matthew Freud.

Sigmund Freud's work into the bubbling and murky world of the subconscious changed the world. By introducing a technique to probe the unconscious mind, Freud provided useful tools for understanding the secret desires of the masses. Unwittingly, his work served as the precursor to a world full of political spin doctors, marketing moguls, and society's belief that the pursuit of satisfaction and happiness is man's ultimate goal.



Happiness Machines
Part One
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8953172273825999151&q=Happiness+Machines&total=132&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0


One: Happiness Machines

The story of the relationship between Sigmund Freud and his American nephew, Edward Bernays. Bernays invented the public relations profession in the 1920s and was the first person to take Freud's ideas to manipulate the masses. He showed American corporations how they could make people want things they didn't need by systematically linking mass-produced goods to their unconscious desires.

Bernays was one of the main architects of the modern techniques of mass-consumer persuasion, using every trick in the book, from celebrity endorsement and outrageous PR stunts, to eroticising the motorcar.

His most notorious coup was breaking the taboo on women smoking by persuading them that cigarettes were a symbol of independence and freedom. But Bernays was convinced that this was more than just a way of selling consumer goods. It was a new political idea of how to control the masses. By satisfying the inner irrational desires that his uncle had identified, people could be made happy and thus docile.

It was the start of the all-consuming self which has come to dominate today's world.



The Engineering of Consent
Part Two
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-678466363224520614&q=The+Engineering+of+Consent&total=52&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0


Two: The Engineering of Consent

The programme explores how those in power in post-war America used Freud's ideas about the unconscious mind to try and control the masses.

Politicians and planners came to believe Freud's underlying premise - that deep within all human beings were dangerous and irrational desires and fears. They were convinced that it was the unleashing of these instincts that had led to the barbarism of Nazi Germany. To stop it ever happening again they set out to find ways to control this hidden enemy within the human mind.

Sigmund Freud's daughter, Anna, and his nephew, Edward Bernays, provided the centrepiece philosophy. The US government, big business, and the CIA used their ideas to develop techniques to manage and control the minds of the American people. But this was not a cynical exercise in manipulation. Those in power believed that the only way to make democracy work and create a stable society was to repress the savage barbarism that lurked just under the surface of normal American life.



There is a Policeman Inside All Our Heads:
He Must Be Destroyed
Part Three
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6111922724894802811&q=There+is+a+Policeman+Inside+All+Our+Heads%3A&total=25&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0


Three: There is a Policeman Inside All Our Heads: He Must Be Destroyed

In the 1960s, a radical group of psychotherapists challenged the influence of Freudian ideas in America. They were inspired by the ideas of Wilhelm Reich, a pupil of Freud's, who had turned against him and was hated by the Freud family. He believed that the inner self did not need to be repressed and controlled. It should be encouraged to express itself.

Out of this came a political movement that sought to create new beings free of the psychological conformity that had been implanted in people's minds by business and politics.

This programme shows how this rapidly developed in America through self-help movements like Werber Erhard's Erhard Seminar Training - into the irresistible rise of the expressive self: the Me Generation.

But the American corporations soon realised that this new self was not a threat but their greatest opportunity. It was in their interest to encourage people to feel they were unique individuals and then sell them ways to express that individuality. To do this they turned to techniques developed by Freudian psychoanalysts to read the inner desires of the new self.



Eight People Sipping Wine in Kettering
Part Four
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1122532358497501036&q=Eight+People+Sipping+Wine+in+Kettering&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0


Four: Eight People Sipping Wine in Kettering

This episode explains how politicians on the left, in both Britain and America, turned to the techniques developed by business to read and fulfil the inner desires of the self.

Both New Labour, under Tony Blair, and the Democrats, led by Bill Clinton, used the focus group, which had been invented by psychoanalysts, in order to regain power. They set out to mould their policies to people's inner desires and feelings, just as capitalism had learnt to do with products.

Out of this grew a new culture of public relations and marketing in politics, business and journalism. One of its stars in Britain was Matthew Freud who followed in the footsteps of his relation, Edward Bernays, the inventor of public relations in the 1920s.

The politicians believed they were creating a new and better form of democracy, one that truly responded to the inner feelings of individual. But what they didn't realise was that the aim of those who had originally created these techniques had not been to liberate the people but to develop a new way of controlling them.
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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
39. It's the Incrementality I worry About
Edited on Fri Oct-12-07 06:38 PM by Mike03
My answer is not exactly in compliance with the parameters you establish in your opening post, but my fear is that "the police state" can form in an amorphous, nebulous way, and so gradually that it not necessarily obvious that this is the case until it is too late to prevent it.

A premise that underlies my comments is a belief in the science of Complexity, which argues that human beings can inadvertantly (or inevitably, as the case may be) create a set of conditions more complex than the ability of human beings to control in the first place. At that "critical mass" point, all sorts of societal conventions can break down, resulting in many unanticipated consequences.

In my mind, I'm troubled by a lot of things that may seem rather random and disconnected:

1. GOOGLE earth, and that I can type in my phone number, get my address and see my house.

2. That some corporations like Amazon and Paypal may document how I spend my money and are not reluctant to provide this information to the government.

3. Some personal incidents I've had that have led me to believe that it is possible that people who are doing nothing wrong can be subject to surveillance.

4. The illusion of anonymity, not just on the web but every time my driver's license is inserted in a machine at the local gas station to confirm I'm over 21. I mean, can't they do elementary math and figure out I'm old enough to purchase beer?

5. How my social security number is my defacto "code" for accessing my bank records, spending history, etc...

6. That it's legal for a theoretical neighbor to install surveillance cameras pointing at my house and zoomed to detect activity through my front windows, and that I have no legal recourse to prevent this.

Add to this the number of important things we are misled about on a daily basis not merely by government toadies but our mainstream media:

The health of the economy.
The reality of Peak Oil and implications thereof.
That many urban centers are running out of water, and few people are talking about this. (And the privitization of water, generally)
The damage being done to the environment and many animals that are precurors to damage in human beings. (The lack of comprehension of how dependent human beings are on the ecosystem, and the contemptuous indifference to halting the deterioration of everything we hold dear on this planet).
The loss of fertility and appearance of genital deformations in human beings due to hormone disregulation caused by chemicals, contaminants and toxins in the environment.
Allowing companies like Monstanto and ConAgra to do their own testing rather than have any oversight.
Concealed studies regarding the health of GMO foods, commonly used plastics, pesticides, etc...
The true causes of chronic disease and how to prevent it.
The financial state of the consumer.
The cost of the wars we are waging.
The care we are putting into taking care of the returning veterans.
All sorts of medical issues that lead Americans to think they have no control over their own health by taking care of themselves and thinking twice about what they put in their mouths, and whether or not they exercise...
That we are increasingly isolated by new technologies that present the illusion of fellowship, but in reality are empty substitutes.

What, you may ask, does this have to do with the "Police State" question? Well, if we are sick, exhausted, overworked, isolated, undermotivated, then we are very easy to deceive and control.

And the list is just endless about the misrepresentations that weaken the American will and make us overwhelmed, paralyzed, ineffectual and unmotivated...

There are probably a number of things I'm not even considering.

There are other factors, like the dispersion of our National Guard to fight in wars they should not be fighting in, which dilutes their ability to protect us in the event of some unforeseen aggression...

And, although I don't consider myself tinfoil-hat material, I AM curious about the installation of detention camps. Why???

And I'm nervous about the signing statements.

Admittedly, that is not a precise answer to your question, or the "definition" of a police state you have asked for, but sometimes it's hard to pinpoint a police state until it's too late and you live in one: this is merely a coalescence of indications that I feel we are moving in this direction. And it scares me, frankly. The implications, as well as the emotions, evoked by your question, lead in my mind at least to some wide-ranging speculation. So, even though specifically these are not "police state" issues, they weaken human beings so that they accept rather than reject increased restrictions on their freedom. And I didn't even get to mention the invasion of privacy issues that are emerging.

The problem with the emergence of a police state is that by the time it exists, it's too late to armchair analyze how it was concretized in the first place. So, I suppose, my answer is that I don't believe we live in one now, but that the cascade of forces beyond our ability to control could result in one, maybe sooner than we think.

Sorry, my response is a bit wide-ranging, rambling, and slightly off target, but this is an issue that provokes intense concern in me.

Fantastic question to ask (as usual, from you), and I am fascinated to read what others say.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #39
67. Oh, my. Yes. You are correct. It's the overall condition of our nation, a vulnerable one,,...
,...in addition to the obvious positioning of the government to suspend liberties in order to have greater control that is disturbing. On top of that, having some knowledge about the neocon ideology doesn't provide any comfort.

If we are to hold "healthy" fears, the possibility of this government imposing something akin to a "police state" is one we should hold under the conditions we presently live.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #39
80. Incrementalism is right.
Too many people, including people here on DU, keep saying "We can still bitch about the government on DU, that means it's a free country." No. We're not a free country. We're not a North-Korea-style totalitarian hellhole either, but that doesn't make us free. We're somewhere in the middle, and the trend is pushing us further towards North Korea and further from free. If the trend continues, soon we will be rounded up for bitching about the government on web forums...
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
40. There's a related discussion
Going on here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x313850

Some posters in that thread seem to feel quite adamantly that it's silly to even discuss "police state" in relation to America.
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Speciesamused Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. Where have they been?????
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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #40
58. Is it silly?
I'm a police-state agnostic, but admittedly a frightened one.
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
49. 24/7 "Message in a bottle"
through a thousand speakers everywhere, and including the frequencies that make you go
"ejemombrrrrr"
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
50. Use of law to suppress political diversity
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
51. I go with the common definition
A country in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the people, especially by means of a secret police force.

We are not there yet. If we were DU would not exist and most of us would be in jail.

I have a pet peeve with people using words to create dramatic effect. It takes awy from those people who are actually living through those experiences and lessens their plight.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #51
77. You keep believing that...
While the water gets hotter and hotter in your little frog pond:


"police state

"The term police state is a term for a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic and political life of the population, especially by means of a secret police force which operates above the normal constraints found in a liberal democracy. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive.

"The classification of a country or regime as a police state is usually contested and debated. The classification is often established by an internal whistleblower or an external critic or activist group. The use of the term is motivated as a response to the laws, policies and actions of that regime, and is often used pejoratively to describe the regime's concept of the social contract, human rights, and similar matters."

Yep, we're there...
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
60. We aren't there yet. Not even close. But they're setting it up for our children...
What we are seeing now is the slow slide into a police state/fascist society.

The writing is on the wall.

Religion used as a political tool.
Private companies who provide mercenaries to fight "wars".
Expanding federal power, and shrinking individual rights.
Public conditioning to accept torture, and brutality, from authority figures.
Corporate rights being given more power than individual rights.

If we don't stop it in our time, our children and their children, will be living in an utter shithole.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. I agree with that
I still have hope that it will all turn around before it is too late.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #62
78. I don't
It's already too late...

For a list of some of the traitors to democracy -- check here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2034712#2036514
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
61. Burma
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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
63. In a free state, government serves the people.
In a police state, government controls the people.

That's the simplest definition I can think of. The function of the Bill of Rights and other laws that guarantee freedom are to restrict the government from doing things that would move it away from the role of servant and toward the role of master. As civil rights are stripped away, the US is slowly becoming more of a police state.

I think the laws that would allow for this are mostly already in place, but the government has not yet begun to abuse its power to the extent of a true police state. If, for example, the antiterror statutes were used to imprison people for criticizing the government (as they could be), the US would have gone over the edge.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
64. NO ACCOUNTABILITY.
Cops can act like Rogue Cops anytime they want with protection from the State.
They do not have to answer to the Law because they "are" The Law.
They have become immune to prosecution.

Pretty simple isn't it? :shrug:

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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
65. I would be willing to bet that it isn't ...
a country where its citizens can regularly get on an internet message board and freely post about how it is a fascist police state.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #65
73. You Lose!!!
A police state is where the cops can pretty much get away with anything in the pursuit of "law and order" and the laws are there to allow them to do it.

We've got one...
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
66. One where the citizens are not guaranteed due process of law,
where they are not safe and secure in their possessions and are spied on, put on lists for group affilation or political dissent, can be designated for incarceration without trial, where those in charge are above the law and can change the law by decree, where people are ruled by the politics of fear and suspicion, etc., etc., etc.
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junkiebrewster Donating Member (371 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
68. I know its CATO
Edited on Fri Oct-12-07 09:24 PM by junkiebrewster
But this fits the definition of police state.

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

As a drunken aside, I wish civil libertarians from both side of the aisle would fuckin' unite. This is something that should disgust ANY little "l" libertarian.
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Dave From Canada Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
69. Cuba
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Ya' know, I've been to Cuba
Edited on Fri Oct-12-07 10:22 PM by ProudDad
not one cop with a gun there...

Not like here where the fucking rent-a-cops are ready to blast your ass if you fit the profile...

The U.S. of Fucking A. gained police state status long before 9/11 but 9/11 cemented it and was the excuse to scare people enough to embrace it...

How about this:

Murdered by cops for flipping out:
http://gothamist.com/2007/09/30/gotbaums_daught.php

Railroaded by D.A.
http://www.freethejena6.org/

or this travesty of justice!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3595270


As a young Moroccan guy on a train from Tangier to Rabat said to me "There are too many men with guns here!" -- He was speaking of the Moroccan cops and the King's guards... There weren't as many as there are here in the good ole' "free" U.S. of Freakin' A.
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Dave From Canada Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #72
81. Interesting, so you're saying you can freely leave your country? Hmm, too bad Cubans don't have
right.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. No, I can't "freely leave my country"
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 01:53 PM by ProudDad
I visited Cuba in the early 90s during a brief "thaw" in relations...on an official Union sponsored trip... One cannot do that any more...

In order to leave "my country", I must have a passport issued by "my" fascist police-state government in order to return...and then the U.S. Customs jackbooted assholes hassle me when I do return...

I don't have the right to visit Cuba (and a few others)...if I do visit them, "my" fascist police-state government might throw me in jail after stripping me of all my assets...

"Free country", my ass...
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
76. You ain't gonna like it, but here you go
1.-Invoke internal and external enemy

Internal, Libs, perhaps even Arabs, and of couse Mexicans

External, Islamofascists

2.-Create a Gulag

Guatamo... dark prison systems, special rendition

3.-Develop a thug caste

Blackwater, Gathering of Eagles, increased violence by local police

4.-Develop internal surveillance system

NSA wiretapping and other programs in that vein

5.-Harrass Citizes Groups

Many peace groups have been infiltrated and harrrased by federal and state agencies


6.-Arbitrary detention and release

This is particularly the case with TSA, but people have gone missing in these united states

7.-Target Key Individuals

Dan Rather, Daschle, Durbin, Kennedy, Donahue... and the list just keeps growing


8.-Control the Press

I know you don't see eye to eye, but they are pretty docile right now


9.- Dissent equals treason

Yep, the language is under use


10.-Suspend the Rule of Law

Already done for some choice individuals, Hamdi and Padilla, but you will see more of this

I knew you would not like it... I can even give examples.. and these are from Wolf's book. Now let me add some other elemeents present as well

11.- Rule by Fiat... can you say Presidential Executive Orders

12.- Travel restrictions, the early stages are underway right now

13.- Elections that are present but not neseraily clean

14.- Finally, when people start watching over their shoulder and editing what they put in their traveling bags, for example... that is well underway


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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
82. The inability to challenge the standing law enforcement s rules by any means I would think.
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SergeyDovlatov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
84. Kids reciting pledge of allegiance every day. Flags everywhere. Secret police and wiretapping
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