It Happens When You Are Not Looking: Police State

[Mike03]

"Police State" may have a precise, legal definition, but my question is simply could this debate be balancing on the head of a semantic pin?

If we are afraid to say what we think, be who we are, write what we want to write, say what we want to say on the phone, protest where we want to protest without a fear of having our photos taken, travel where we want to travel without fear of winding up on a Terror List because we wrote a nasty, ill-advised letter to the White House or signed an Impeachment petition. If we are so overwhelmed with mis-information that we begin to doubt our own sanity, and if we are isolated, cut off from like-minded people, afraid, intimidated, desolate, depressed, confused and silenced, isn't that pretty close to the same result one would have if he/she lived in a police state?

Throughout history, did individuals "entering" a police state figure out they were in one until it was too late? I bet they thought everything was okay until they were way past that point where they could recognize what was happening.

Fear can mimick a police state, without the government having to go to the trouble of actually creating one.

Or maybe fear creates a police state.

All I know is that I don't feel free today. I haven't felt free, let alone proud of the United States, in a long time.

Today was a great day, because Al Gore won an important prize, and this is the first good news about our country I've heard in a long time.

[Gabi Hayes]

1. THANK you! how about 'virtual police state?' or

virtually a police state

your central paragraph is something I think about a lot, and has affected me personally in several different ways

did you see the story about the filmmaker at the Portland Airport?

something similar happened to me there, too, in 2002, though it began on a United plane, before we left the gate.....

[Mike03]

2. I'm just relieved

at least one person here doesn't think I'm nuts for having these fears or asking these questions in the first place.

Thanks

[old guy]

4. Nuts?

On the contrary, I share your feelings and I don't either of us is nuts.

[KG]

3. when a cop stops you in your car and asks to search it, see what happens when you say 'no'

or just asks you out of the blue for your ID, see what happens if you say 'no' to a an unreasonable search

at a peace march? be sure and smile at the camera as the cops takes your pic while you're exercising your right to peaceably assemble.

police state; it's just a matter of degrees.

[caseycoon]

5. I agree to a point...

The problem is, we know these things COULD happen even though it may unlikely right now.
Like the old saying... Just because we are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get us.

[Mike03]

6. I completely accept your premise

I just feel it is something to worry about.

In the past, I felt paranoia was dumb, but for the past four years or so, I have felt that paranoia might be wise.

But I simply don't know.

I live my life by the seat of my pants, and hope for the best, but expect things to be difficult.

[renie408]

7. What if we aren't afraid?

I am not afraid to say what I think or be who I am. I have protested the war with signs on the busiest street corner in the largest city near to me...more than once. I have argued with the local schools about religion in the schools. I have an anti-war bumper sticker, an anti-Bush bumper sticker and my kid wore a T-shirt to school yesterday that said, "Friends don't let friends vote Republican." I write stinging letters to my congress people and post regularly on this board. I am not afraid, intimidated, desolate, depressed, confused or silenced.

How can we both live in the same country?

[Mike03]

10. I've done some of the same things you have

But I've received some feedback that did scare me.

I would never discourage anyone from doing what they can do, but I'm not pretentious enough to maintain that it doesn't hurt or feel scary to get intimidated by people or organizations or senators who want you to shut the fuck up.

More power to you, but please don't lecture me.

[renie408]

11. I wasn't trying to lecture you.

I am being serious. I don't think of doing those things as 'brave'. They are my right as an American. I am literally not scared. If you ARE scared and you are still doing stuff, then YOU are actually the brave one.

I hear a lot of people talk about the police state and how 'the government' is setting us up for a police state. I do see that the Bush administration has eroded our civil rights. And I do see that it is really important for us to have as Democratic and liberal a POTUS as we can get in '08 so that the next SCOTUS nominees aren't conservatives and so that we can start getting those civil rights back. I see all that and I am concerned. But can't we effect change in the government through voting?

I wonder if I am naive because I trust that the system will work if enough people are paying attention. I do have hope. I hear things being reported on now that either would never have gotten mentioned two years ago or would have had a far different spin then. Also, in a police state, would the egregious acts of the police not make it onto CNN 200 times a day?

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

12. Voting?

I'm so sorry.

Oh, geez,...I am speechless,...there are just so many irregularities and,...well,...states are expunging 15% or more of the voters registrations, this year. If you are too poor or have moved or (just happen to) fail to receive notice, you will not get to vote at the next election. This is just the latest news. The computers counting votes are another matter among,...

Let me just put it to you this way: voting is no longer a reliable means of effecting change.

[renie408]

13. Well, if voting isn't going to work, we need to take up arms.

I mean it. If you truly think that elections are going to be so rigged that we will not get a Dem into the WH in '08, the only option left would be a revolution, right? Is that what you would suggest? Bitching about it isn't going to get anybody anywhere.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

14. No. We've done everything in our power to intervene, inform, influence, ensure the vote.

Neither our good fight for the voter,...or "bitching about it" has helped.

All you can do is your best in spite of disappointing results.

What else can you do, renie408?

[renie408]

19. Huh?

What do you mean, "What else can you do?"

I am not kidding about taking the government back. If that is what it comes down to, that is what you have to do. The thing is, how do you know you have gotten to that point? Are we there? If we are being strung along with illusions of freedom, when do we revolt? When do we, as mentioned in another thread, start eating the rich?

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

27. That's for you to judge for yourself, I believe. eom

[ConfidentialStatus]

33. It's simple

What I mean, Please stop asking for permission to do something lawful. And most importantly stop submitting to all the BS statutes. But we need more people doing it, not just a few freedom fighters. Strength will be in the numbers.

By golly I have a right to defend myself by whatever means. This is what I call Checks and Balances... The conditioning and propaganda has been so strong in America it has effected the populace to look up to "authority" and be submissive.

What will it take to wake-up the masses? Is there a chance? I hope? But after today I don't know?

I just came back from China*Mart and asked about 100 people if they ever heard of Dennis Kucinich? Only one, ever heard of him. Then I asked about Ron Paul and two people said they think he's with the Democratic party & the one said he was nutcase and a leftwing kook.

People should try it sometime and come back with the responses. You'll be amazed. In fairness I asked if they heard of Britney Spears and Barry Bonds. I was batting better than Bonds with those two questions. They all heard of Spears & Bonds.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

35. Interesting reply. "BS statutes"? *LOL*

Wanna' be more specific about what you are implying?

[ConfidentialStatus]

37. Sure you asked and I'll answer

And many people fell for the nonsense we will have chaos if we didn't have all these laws.

HR 418 - Are you going to get the National ID card? I'm not! Some people call it the law. It's anti-law. There are plenty of "Laws" on the books. If I had the power to repeal most of them, Joe sixpack and Sally homemaker wouldn't even know they were missing. We are not a nation of laws we are nation of rules. Millions of rules that no human can comply with. Let alone enforce them. The pawns are used to enforce some of the BS selective rules when you create waves. Not to mention job security.

Where do my rights come from? What about your rights? Who gives them to you? If man gave you your rights then man can take them away. What is the reason people take a sworn oath to secure those rights (words on paper) and "we" sit and watch, while they violate those rights every day to our fellow man? The specific jobs in the four branches of government have all been a big illusion.

BTW When I was in China*Mart not one soul could even tell me the five parts of the First Amendment.
I think I should make a video and post it here. Then my fellow DUers can watch and comment, or better yet maybe a DUer can go out in their community and find out for themselves.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

38. Do you believe there are different branches of,...

,...thought about anarchy?

Your posts are amusing. On one hand, you indicate "laws" are BAD. On the other, you wrap yourself around "anti-law".

Where do you stand in the scheme of things? Okay, that's WAY too broad. I'm sorry. Do you believe laws should be created and enforced to protect against predatorial behavior?

[ConfidentialStatus]

39. Of course they are amusing to you

I'm not talking about anarchy. Are we talking about criminal laws? Or civil laws? Yes some "laws" are bad? For example marijuana laws. How can this be criminal? If I decide to smoke and not harm a single soul who is my accuser? Who is the injured party? Who did I violate? Who's property did I damage?

Did I enter into a civil contract without knowing? Somehow I've entered into voluntary servitude because I'm not the master of my own body. Police officers are technically code enforcement officers or maybe collection officers. Yes we need laws. But the question is do we need more control from other human beings who want you to conform to the rules that they created. Like I said in my previous post If I had the power to repeal laws, many would not know it. Do you honestly think there would be complete confusion? We have more confusion and disorder now. Look at Title 26 and read all that gooblygook... not even continuing educated people understand the language. What can be the reason? I think it's to keep people confused.

In my walk of life I'll hear people say you can't do this and you can't do that... There's a law against that and they never even read this so called law. "I also hear it's for your protection" I know you want me to be specific - okay I will. A man sells auto insurance, says to me I can give you a free quote. I said great and I give him the details. Then he says I need your Social Security Number... then I ask is this a law or a company policy? He says it's the law. I say great can you cite me the law since you know it's the law? Now I caught him in a lie because he never read the law and he just doing what he was told to do because this is what he was taught (job duty).

Note, I didn't expect him to cite the law word for word. However you know and I know most people are clueless of all the laws that we have on the books. Including me.

Wasn't trying to avoid your other question. Yes I want laws against any attacks against me or others.
Let's say we had no laws on the books from someone assaulting me. I know I have a right to defend myself regardless of the words on paper. You avoided my questions?

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Read wolf's book

you need to...

And yes Rennie you are naive... you believe that the pendulum will work again, yet we have many, many signs of new normals

By the way I am not afraid, but that is becusae I choose NOT to be afraid...

But there are consequences and if we loose this fight, the consequences might be severe

By the way, many police staes desire the working drones, yeah that is you and me, to keep the illusion of freedom until the illusion is no longer necessary

[CrispyQ]

26. I bought a copy today.

And one for my library, too.

BTW, I hope I didn't come across too snitty the other night. Somedays I feel like this, :banghead: all day long.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. I know the feellng

I will see how much I can allocate for books to ahem send to congress critters

[Cleita]

34. I just finished reading it.

It's not anything many of us didn't know here at DU, but the writer organizes it so well, putting it into clear and concise concepts.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

36. A perfect holiday gift in the right hands. eom

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Many of us know about it

but the denial even here is astounding at times

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

8. Moreover, if the government wanted to impose such control, wouldn't it do so,....

,...in the most calculating way possible?

There is a LOT of shit happening in complete contradiction of a democratic institution ESPECIALLY under the supreme law of OUR country.

When looking at the whole picture, it seems to me absolutely everything is in place to quickly move people into a "police state" environment when/if the government decides to do so: data mining and all the personal info necessary, suspension of habeas corpus, large detention facilities, private security companies,...hell, even 'secret gulags' beyond our borders,...in addition to a myriad of other crazy crap.

For me, it's not about if or when it COULD happen but rather, why the fuck has the government gone to such lengths to create a set-up such that, if it wanted to, it could? Presently, it can rely upon a 'media' to control both information and thinking. What if that stops working.

I really try to avoid thinking about it, frankly,...because, it's so frightening.

[CrispyQ]

25. Well said.

"...it's not about if or when it COULD happen but rather, why the fuck has the government gone to such lengths to create a set-up such that, if it wanted to, it could?"


And your screen name says it all.

:hi:

[Megahurtz]

9. Most Of America Is Asleep Until

something happens close to home.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

15. .

[DemReadingDU]

18. They aren't paying attention

to what is going on around them. They are busy with work, family, hobbies, don't read, rarely watch news, but maybe hear people who listen to Limbaugh.

There are some in my own family who don't even know who Ann Coulter is. Maybe that is a good thing :)

[H2O Man]

17. A large part

of the Cheney administration's "patriot act" -- which is simply an updated Huston Plan -- is the coordination of activities between local, county, state and federal police agencies. And the truth is that just as the 1 in 10 police who graduated in the top 10% of their class will function at a higher level, those in the other 10% will become that much worse. Add to that a institional focus on locating and identifying the "threat" (even where none exists), and then investigating them, reporting their potential threat level, and disrupting their activities, and we end up with things such as the anti-war, cookie-consumers on Michael Moore's film "F 9/11" being infiltrated. And that's just the funny example.

I've told of my nephew and a friend going a block from his apartment to get a pizza one evening. Being young and with brown skin, some police identified them as a potential threat to national security. They were held for over three hours until the police were satisfied that they were the same people that their identification showed. This isn't as funny an example, but it is evidence of the step in the wrong direction.

There are numerous other examples reported on DU, and other sources, with a frequency that should concern everyone who believes in the Bill of Rights.

[CrispyQ]

20. You are not alone in your concerns.

In an article by Naomi Wolf, she states:

http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/10/11/12187/

snip...

"I hear from a tech guy who works for the airlines — again, probably a Republican — that once you are on the list you never get off. Someone else says that his friend opened his luggage to find a letter from the TSA saying that they did not appreciate his reading material. Before I go into the security lines, I find myself editing my possessions. In New York’s LaGuardia, I reluctantly found myself putting a hardcover copy of Tara McKelvey’s excellent Monstering, an expose of CIA interrogation practices, in a garbage can before I get in the security line; it is based on classified information. This morning at my hotel, before going to the airport, I threw away a very nice black T-shirt that said `We Will Not be Silenced’ — with an Arabic translation — that someone had given me, along with a copy of poems written by detainees at Guantanamo."

I you had told me 10 years ago that US citizens would "edit" their reading material before going to the airport I would not have believed you.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

23. Okay. That article made me cry. But, it also lifted my spirit some.

I completely understand the fear of retribution in these times. I have my own personal story about that but choose to keep it confidential. I will say, well,...I'll say:

Thank you so much for sharing that article!!! Naomi Wolf is an impressive and courageous lady!!!

:hi:

[Akoto]

21. Tyranny often comes in small steps ...

Usually, far enough apart that people see each measure along the way as benign or warranted. They might even defend the changes. The rug's eventually yanked out from under you, but you don't feel it until you're flat on your ass.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

31. .

[Richard Steele]

22. K&R

[mmonk]

24. Secret courts, state secrets, secret prisons, legislation in the dark

of night, all along with the more visible legislation such as the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act, warrantless wiretapping, etc. means there are things going on, its just that a uniformed officer isn't standing in front of you everyday.

[dkofos]

28. Like putting a frog in a pan of waterand then turning on the heat.

It's happening all around us. We see it, but WE are not enough.

As long as the people are compliant the process will remain covert.

When govt gets scared enough, they will pull another "Pearl Harbor" moment
out of their bag of dirty tricks and the police state will be out in the open.

Live Free Or Die

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

29. Perhaps,...

,...the administration put everything in place anticipating greater opposition/dissent than what has taken place. Just a thought.

If their is another "Pearl Harbor" moment, I have no doubt the truth will reveal itself.

[dkofos]

30. Indeed