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Simple question: Do you believe you are free?

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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 05:09 PM
Original message
Simple question: Do you believe you are free?
I know my "automated" response compels me to say, "damn right I am free".

Yeah! I am so damned free to SEE reality dictates otherwise, disappointingly.

How can I claim to be "free" when I know I do not live in a democratic nation? I don't even have a half-assed chance to recognize my own potential in a nation POSSESSED by powers so much bigger than my own that,...I can't even fucking count to the number of dollars disappeared into unknown hands.

Right. I am "free". I am FREE to watch others with huge powers abuse human beings, including me, for profit. I am "free" to be a member of a mass human movement (global, no less) against these huge powers and get a nanosecond recognition.

A timeless treasure: the "freedom" of the people versus the POWER of the human predators. The predators always pretend to protect OUR freedom in order to cover up their abuse of power.

Random thoughts and frustrations on the state of our existence.

I think it's just naive to suggest laws are unnecessary. It's a damn shame the founders of this democracy failed to anticipate the repeated and ultimate abuses of power to the point of destroying what they sought: a nation free from ECONOMIC tyranny.

I don't know why we somehow figured the tyrants would keep their attention abroad, rather than eventually bringing it home. Oh, that's right,...we have ignored that behavior,...or denied it,...or something.

Do you believe you are free? Give examples of your freedom.
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Chimpy McCokespoon Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. Freedom is a human construct that doesn't really exist.
It's all an illusion, just like security is an illusion.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Is that your example of being free?
:shrug:

Maybe, you have more to say on that, "construct". I hope.
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ThatsMyBarack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
48. Welcome to DU, Chimpy McCokespoon!
Love your handle! :hi: :patriot:
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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sure, I Am Free To Either Do As Told
or end up in the gulag.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Really?
which gulag is that?

Who in a position of authortiy told you to do anything specific today?

Were you censored? Were you detained by the authorities while just going about your business? Did somebody prevent you posting ridiculous hyperbole on the internet?
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. None of the above. However, all that information is being gathered.
Yes?

"Authorities" have responded to such trivial shit as kids drawings of bush as the devil and peace-monger gatherings and whatnots. Moreover, what kind of firewall do you have?

Least of all, in your world (maybe), are ALLLLLL the people who are AFRAID to report governmental abuses for fear of their own survival. For some reason, I doubt your willingness to fully acknowledge those people or their facts.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
36. key phrase in your query: "while just going about your business"
what if 'my business' is getting on an airplane without being suspected of being a terrorist?

What if 'my business' is smoking some weed in the privacy of my own home- ?

What if 'my business' is sleeping in the park at night?

What if 'my business' is catch and release fishing in brook down the hill from my home?

What if 'my business' is wanting to go to Montreal for the afternoon without having to plan months in advance to get a passport?

What if 'my business' is wanting to safely end my life due to suffering from terminal illness in the comfort and privacy of my own home?

What if 'my business' is driving my automobile as a black male?

What if 'my business' is being in the military and not wanting to having to lie about my homosexuality?

What if 'my business' is making the decision to have an abortion without having the govt- dictate to the Dr. what procedures they may chose from?

What if 'my business' is wanting to attend an event that * is speaking at, and not being a registered repubic?

What if 'my business' is questioning the integrity of the answers Petreaus gave to congress?

What if 'my business' includes wearing a t-shirt with the words 'impeach' on it

What if 'my business' is just walking in a city where I am not a resident without 'identification'- or money?

What if ' my business' is wanting the word 'bitch' on my vanity license plate?

What if 'my business' is holding a political sign on a street where the president's motorcade is going to travel?

What if 'my business' is knowing that when I am detained by the police I can be assured of the right to an attorney and knowledge of why I am being detained?


some of these are 'stretches' I admit- some are a bit silly- but too many have become sobering reality-

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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #36
47. Thats a lot of "ifs"
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 09:28 AM by MonkeyFunk
Some of that stuff was illegal to do long before Bush (sleep in the park, smoke pot, have an obscenity on your license plate) Some of it you can still do freely today (get an abortion, hold up a sign to the president's motorcade, wear a t-shirt saying "impeach.")

Some are just silly - it's not silly to require a passport to visit another country.

Ridiculous hyperbole.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
4. Simple answer NO! And this is why.........
Money as Debt video. 47 mins....
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279

Freedom is only in your mind!
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stlsaxman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. In the words of Patrick McGoohan (The Prisoner)...




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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. To a point
I'm free to write things on the net, I can say babs bush is an ugly stinky old hag and not have to worry about my door being kicked in. I'm free to crash into the walls of my cage, I'm free as far as my money will take me, if I can afford to I can leave tonight for anywhere.
I don't think I'm totally free however, there are things I do at my own risk, though I'm aware of that so I know the peril that's more of a moral issue though.
Free? I don't think so free enough maybe.
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Sadie4629 Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
8. Okay,
what can you NOT do today that you could do last year? Or five years ago? Or ten?

Sorry, I'm not buying it.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I can't talk on the phone without the fear of wiretapping
When I protest I can only protest in "Free speech" zones (which are always conveniently out of the sight of those who need to see the damned protest).

I can't travel freely; I have to have a passport to go to fuckin' Canada now. How long before a simple drive across town requires "papers"?

Soon we'll need to have the National ID card with its RFID chip (like they are putting into the new passports).

There are more surveillance cameras mounted in public places than ever before; going out into certain public places starts to feel the same as going into a friendly prison courtyard.

I'll let Milton Mayer describe how the changes come about ("They Thought They Were Free"):
But Then It Was Too Late

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933,between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know it doesn't make people close to their government to be told that this is a people's government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing to do with knowing one is governing.

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

"You will understand me when I say that my Middle High German was my life. It was all I cared about. I was a scholar, a specialist. Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the universe was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was "expected to" participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one's energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time."

"Those," I said, "are the words of my friend the baker. "One had no time to think. There was so much going on." "Your friend the baker was right," said my colleague. "The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your "little men", your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about - we were decent people - and kept us so busy with continuous changes and "crises" and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the "national enemies", without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice - "Resist the beginnings" and "consider the end." But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have changed here before they went as far as they did; they didn't, but they might have. And everyone counts on that might.

"Your "little men," your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemoller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing: and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something - but then it was too late."

"Yes," I said.

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, "everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to you colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, "It's not so bad" or "You're seeing things" or "You're an alarmist."

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

"But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to – to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and the smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked – if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in "43" had come immediately after the "German Firm" stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in "33". But of course this isn't the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying "Jew swine," collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in – your nation, your people – is not the world you were in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.

"You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a succession of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it, without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more comfortably every day, with new morals, new principles. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things that your father, even in Germany, could not have imagined.

"Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven't done ( for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing). You remember those early meetings of your department in the university when, if one had stood, others would have stood, perhaps, but no one stood. A small matter, a matter of hiring this man or that, and you hired this one rather than that. You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.

"What then? You must then shoot yourself. A few did. Or "adjust" your principles. Many tried, and some, I suppose, succeeded; not I, however. Or learn to live the rest of your life with your shame. This last is the nearest there is, under the circumstances, to heroism: shame. Many Germans became this poor kind of hero, many more, I think, than the world knows or cares to know." 

I said nothing. I thought of nothing to say.

"I can tell you," my colleague went on, "of a man in Leipzig, a judge. He was not a Nazi, except nominally, but he certainly wasn't an anti-Nazi. He was just – a judge. In "42" or "43", early "43", I think it was, a Jew was tried before him in a case involving, but only incidentally, relations with an "Aryan" woman. This was "race injury", something the Party was especially anxious to punish. In the case a bar, however, the judge had the power to convict the man of a "nonracial" offense and send him to an ordinary prison for a very long term, thus saving him from Party "processing" which would have meant concentration camp or, more probably, deportation and death. But the man was innocent of the "nonracial" charge, in the judge's opinion, and so, as an honorable judge, he acquitted him. Of course, the Party seized the Jew as soon as he left the courtroom."

"And the judge?"

"Yes, the judge. He could not get the case off his conscience – a case, mind you, in which he had acquitted an innocent man. He thought that he should have convicted him and saved him from the Party, but how could he have convicted an innocent man? The thing preyed on him more and more, and he had to talk about it, first to his family, then to his friends, and then to acquaintances. (That's how I heard about it.) After the "44" Putsch they arrested him. After that, I don't know."

I said nothing.

"Once the war began," my colleague continued, "resistance, protest, criticism, complaint, all carried with them a multiplied likelihood of the greatest punishment. Mere lack of enthusiasm, or failure to show it in public, was "defeatism." You assumed that there were lists of those who would be "dealt with" later, after the victory. Goebbels was very clever here, too. He continually promised a "victory orgy" to "take care of" those who thought that their "treasonable attitude" had escaped notice. And he meant it; that was not just propaganda. And that was enough to put an end to all uncertainty.

"Once the war began, the government could do anything "necessary" to win it; so it was with the "final solution" of the Jewish problem, which the Nazis always talked about but never dared undertake, not even the Nazis, until war and its "necessities" gave them the knowledge that they could get away with it. The people abroad who thought that war against Hitler would help the Jews were wrong. And the people in Germany who, once the war had begun, still thought of complaining, protesting, resisting, were betting on Germany's losing the war. It was a long bet. Not many made it."



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Sadie4629 Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I'll admit, that you are right about some of that
but, "Free Speech Zones" were originally instituted to protect women utilizing reproductive health clinics. A case of a Democratic idea gone horribly awry, maybe, but the restriction was instituted with Democratic approval, and we all have to live with the consequences.

I believe the wiretapping is only on international calls to certain countries. If you are talking to someone within this country, you don't have to worry.

The passport requirement for travel to Canada is new, but you have always had to show a passport to travel to most (all?) other countries. Probably, Canada had as much to do with that requirement as the U.S. did.

Surveillance cameras are a local thing, and really just a sign of the increased availability of technology. IMO.

When are we going to be required to have a National ID card? Or is this just an assumption on your part?

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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
41. You are quite naive.
Edited on Sat Oct-13-07 08:53 PM by blackops
"I believe the wiretapping is only on international calls to certain countries. If you are talking to someone within this country, you don't have to worry."

The domestic surveillance program is ILLEGAL and UNCONSTITUTIONAL. It was declared so by U.S. District Court Judge Anna Diggs Taylor. It is a violation of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 and the Fourth Amendment. The administration has offered a litany of flimsy claims to prove its legality, each ridiculous in their assertions: The AUMF allowed the wiretapping; the Supreme Court decision in Hamdi v Rumsfeld allowed the wiretapping, their war-time powers allowed the wiretapping, despite the fact that Congress never declared war and even if they had, warrantless surveillance could only be done for fifteen days. Do you honestly believe, that after offering so many flimsy excuses to allow ILLEGAL and UNCONSTITUTIONAL wiretapping, that Bushco is only using it for the reasons it was intended and not to spy on political adversaries?

If yes, why? Because that would be bad, and Dear Leader would not do something bad (even if he did commit multiple felonies doing the "not bad" thing he did do), right?

Bow to authority much?

Here is the information on REAL ID:

http://www.dhs.gov/xprevprot/laws/gc_1172767635686.shtm

Nice bubble ya got there.

"The illusion of freedom in America will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theatre."
-- Frank Zappa, 1977
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
49. National ID Card = Real ID
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Yes.
I am free to say and do whatever I wish to say and do. There may be negative consequences to certain statements &/or actions but that is still my choice. There are Laws, rules and social taboos that are in place in America. I can chose to violate those if I feel that I can avoid paying the price or am willing to pay the price.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. What could I do ten years ago I can't do now? Uh, have perfume on a plane,...
,...BE EMPLOYED *HA HA HA*, BE AT PEACE RATHER THAN IN A PROFITEERING WAR (with my brother and lover and friend all sacrificing their livers for money-mongers who do NOT give a damn about "democracy")/

,...uh, let's see,...not have my life spied upon by those who are DETERMINED TO HAVE POWER over this country and its ONLY NATURAL RESOURCE (that would be human beings,...doh, you and me),...

Ten years ago, I had no concerns about my or my family or my friends' capacity to build happiness in a climate of challenge. We all figured "challenges" as part of the parcel or fabric of our lives and gladly engaged ourselves.

There is a difference between a "challenge" and "oppression".

Questions?

You don't have to pay a goddamn penny to BUY what I've posted. 'kay?

You must be doing pretty good to post what you did. Are you willing to acknowledge those who have been impacted or will it take a personal HIT before you will do that?
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Sadie4629 Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. They sacrificed their LIVERS????
Yeah, my life isn't bad.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. You caught that. GOOD ON YOU!!!!
:rofl:

:applause:
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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. I'm expensive. Few can afford me. n/t
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
14. I am free to read this OP, or not
to hit "reply" or "alert" or "hide thread" and then move on and do something else. I can think some thoughts and type them out on my keyboard. I can do pretty much whatever I choose inside my house. I have a certain amount of income and wealth that I can spend on various things of MY choosing. Except I cannot, it seems, have a bowl of Quisp cereal, something I enjoyed as recently as six years ago. But I have a fair amount of choices.

What would real freedom look like?
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. I reckon' "real freedom" could look just like you.
Only, some never had the choice of having "Quisp cereal". You had that choice, once.

Congratulations!!!

"What would real freedom look like?" Is that a challenge to me,...or you?

I think, what would freedom FROM unnecessary human suffering look like?

Have you ever thought about that? :shrug:
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133724 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
16. I am as free as I choose to be.......
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Uh, huh. We can always be free in our own minds while imprisoned.
The very few that get out are careful with their words even AFTER they were released.

Notice?

Yes. Even the most heroic survivors of oppression have learned they must "weigh" their words in order to survive.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
17. No way.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
18. To the extent that I walk the line and am truly conscious
Edited on Sat Oct-13-07 06:34 PM by DemGa
Most people are essentially robots; repeating their unconscious programming, only believing they are independently making choices.

My freedom also becomes seriously compromised if I cannot pay to stay in mainstream society to some degree.

So lots of money, plus becoming aware of unconscious motives equals freedom, of a kind.


And all of this naturally depends on a fairly stable civilization.


I'm basically free in many ways, but watchful. I say this recognizing the threat that government holds on freedom.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
21. Excellent post
Some people really don't have any goals. They truly are content to never venture 20 miles from their home and look forward to the new television season like a trip to the moon. It doesn't take much to convine them they're free.

It's when you want something different than that, and you start hitting the various roadblocks, that you realize you have very little freedom in the scheme of things.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. No. It's a confrontational post, for better or worse, and WAY short of comforting.
I'd like to believe we are all struggling, as I am, with the question: "how much of myself and my life am I willing to sacrifice for others, without any recognition or reward"?

It is SOOOOO easy to MINDLESSLY DO THE AMERICAN DREAM: get the best paying job, do a spouse and kids, buy a house, acquire debt to drive the pretty car and wear nice clothes. Until, the job ain't there without "buying" into any job.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Easy?
Then you haven't tried to do it from nothing or with a physical or mental impairment.

Or, tried to do something personally fulfilling while supporting yourself.

And no, not many people are willing to sacrifice anything for anybody. Now you can beat yourself against the wall on that for your entire life, or take my word for it after having beaten that particular horse for 50 years. Most humans will seek as much comfort as they can attain, at the expense of the majority, and you will never change that.

20% of the planet consumes 86% of the goods. That's you and me so we aren't innocent either.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Please, don't do twists on my intentions.
Unfortunately, I can see that,...you and I will disagree about the selfish/selfless perspective.

You are you and only YOU know you. Me and my mind, are mine.

Whether you are willing to accept selfless (NO STRINGS ATTACHED) gifts of life or not, they happen.

Do you exist upon pure selfishness? If so, are you "FREE" on that?

With respect to having "to do it from nothing or with a physical or mental impairment. Or, tried to do something personally fulfilling while supporting yourself."

You are wrong. I have had to "DO IT" on my own from the day I turned 15 years old.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. And it was easy?
Because that's what you said.

And if you want to believe the world is full of selfless people, that's your choice too. And if you've found it to be true, well then you must do a much better job of selecting who you surround yourself with than I do. So good for you there too.

And if all that's true, then it would seem to me you would be living a free life, and again, good for you. Most people don't make it.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. No. it's been very difficult. Okay? nt
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. PSSST! Thank you.
:hug:
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
23. not really.
but a whole lot freer than some around the world.

how free we are is dictated by the ones who have ownership over us all. who they allow to pretend to be freeist.

I could probably come up with a few statements right here, now, just to show how freedom of speech is an illusion.
but here is a whole lot freer than some parts of the world. so what am I griping about then.


Tommy:

I'M FREE-I'm free,
And freedom tastes of reality,
I'm free-I'm free,
AN' I'm waiting for you to follow me.

If I told you what it takes
to reach the highest high,
You'd laugh and say 'nothing's that simple'
But you've been told many times before
Messiahs pointed to the door
And no one had the guts to leave the temple!

I'm free-I'm free
And freedom tastes of reality
I'm free-I'm free
And I'm waiting for you to follow me.

Chorus:

How can we follow?
How can we follow?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
24. Sure just like I believe we are making progress in Iraq.
:rofl:
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
25. i don't know from "damn right I am free", but yes, i am free...
as a practical matter of course; we operate our own business, we drive all about the landscape passing through no check points having to 'show papers', move, or try to move in small elegant circles (and no i do not mean round & round in circles), no cops breaking the doors down, we're street legal...some would suggest that being street legal is to surrender to the machine, still...

on top of which i see hundreds of thousands of folks moving in both directions on hwy's & bi-ways going about whatever business they are conducting, presumably

the aerial view of this society out here (absent of course biblical calamity i.e. Katrina, earthquake damage, etc) indicates a free flow of activity, i'm sure that the more minute the view becomes freedoms are seen peeling away, but again as a practical matter...i am free
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. You feel free, bridget. Somehow, I imagine, you always will be.
:hug:
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
26. On the African savannah, antelopes and gazelles are "free"
But they still get stalked, pounced upon, and eaten.

There's our "freedom" in a nutshell. The freedom to be preyed upon by the corporate lions.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. *LOL* My cats and dogs are so "free", I often meditate BEING them.
They have neither the past or the future worrying about their existence that human beings are supposed to have, I guess.

ALL RIGHT, already,...they HAVE had no concerns about the basics: food, clothing *LOL* or shelter,...like we do.

Still,...they are far more "free" to be than I. I, as a human being, am SUPPOSED to exercise more freedom than my own critters,...aren't I?

:shrug:
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
27. somewhat free and somewhat not.
money is the important reason as to why i am not free.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
33. All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow.
H.L. Mencken

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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. I was hoping someone would raise the EQUAL JUSTICE point of "freedom"
HUMAN BEINGS are supposed to have the capacity to imagine and create 'justice'.

They have,.....

,....done otherwise.

NOT ONLY has humanity stolen the notion of "freedom" from its own lot, it has destroyed nature's notion of freedom.

Even I wish something, God or else, would end the insanity. But, here we are, our own reality created by our own hands.

It's,...embarassing!!! :rofl: No wonder I feel more comfortable with my critters!!!!
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
38. an insightful and timely post- I was just talking about this with some
especially dear friends who are refugees from Africa about this very thing yesterday.

They are moving south, for many reasons- Going to a state where they know no one, and will have no 'safety net'-

We've often discussed how difficult life is here. Yesterday we got to talking about what 'freedom' really means- My friends said, that here we have many prisons- people are put in jail for everything- in Africa, they don't do that- but in Africa if you were to say anything against the President- anything even minutely 'negative' - soldiers would come, and you would disappear forever. "But here" they said, people can say "*'s an idiot- and nothing happens." The more we talked though, the more the concept of "freedom".. true freedom, began to seem like a kind of cruel illusion.

What good does having the freedom to say "fuck bush" really matter? I mean- really???

If we are satisfied to be able to 'voice' anything (almost) we like, while the govt- does what it wants without any actual- TANGIBLE- control from you and me-?

WE the people?

Hell- we vote- and sometimes our votes actually do elect those we cast our votes for-

But are our voices really heard when it matters?
like:
When war is being declared?
When our children have no health care?
When govt. officials break the law and are pardoned?
When those who have the $ ensure that it is their taxes which are cut?
When we want our soldiers to come home?
When medical procedures which could make the difference between living a shortened, compromised life and being cured of a disease is denied because of wealthy powerful religious fanatics?

In Africa, you may go hungry- you may not have a home- you are often at the mercy of your neighbors and friends who may have little to spare themselves. But at least you are not condemned for your neediness. You are not blamed for your struggling by others who have begun life many rungs up the ladder to begin with. You will not be arrested for not being able to afford a home- your children will not be taken from you and placed with strangers because of your poverty-

"People say America is a free country-" my friend said- but without certificates that usually cost substantial $- and requires you to either have the funds to not work for the time it takes to get your diploma/certificate/etc- or that you be one of the fortunate few who receive grants which enable you to dedicate yourself to training for the time it takes.
You can't be a mother, especially a single mom, without substantial $- or a very good support system/extended family/friends network.

Are we free? My friend says that here people pay her to clean their toilets- but the government tells her she must go to an another 'american' school for 18 mos. and spend $20,000 to get a certificate which allows her to braid hair- something she did for a living and was trained in in Africa. If she was to do this here, without a license, she would be guilty of a felony and could be deported- ??? (this is fact)

Freedom IS free- we are all born free- but from that first breath onward, we are at the mercy of each other.
If 'you' could give me 'free'dom- then I would not be free, I would make me indebted to you- that isn't FREE.

Freedom cannot be given to others- it can only be restored. We can hold the freedom of others hostage, but we will never really 'possess' it- we enslave ourselves in the process of enslaving others. It is a dirty little circle.

sorry for the soapboxing-

yours was a thought provoking post-

peace~

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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Please, do NOT apologize. It's interesting. Freedom to be punished or ignored.
OR,...be indebted to you.

There are multitudes that give with the either NO expectation or the mere expectation of gratitude.

I don't believe the "circle" is necessary if we choose to give to those who are gracious rather than those who are otherwise.

I am having thoughts inspired by your post.

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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
39. i pretend that i am free.
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Enoch1981 Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 05:51 AM
Response to Original message
44. Nope (pardon the melodrama, lol)
My freedom is superficial, as it is for a lot of people. I have a myriad of metaphoric chains: romantic infatuations, the mental health system, SSI, poverty, my physical health, etc.

And, don't get me started on the government... :-)
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 05:56 AM
Response to Original message
45. No.
Though things look the same to the naked eye.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
46. Right now I'm still working for the corporate slave master. Someday
I like to think I have enough stashed away, enjoy my freedom and retire without any worry..
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