Omg Chris Matthews on Real Time must have been smoking Bill's herb.

[AlCzervik]

he's got "Hah!" tourettes syndrome and keeps laughing uncontrollably and some guy in th audience us calling Matthews a douchebag or something and security just kicked the guy out.

[AlCzervik]

1. bunch of people in audience keep yelling about how Matthews sucks.

[Roxy66]

5. What are you watching?

[AlCzervik]

7. bill maher

[AlCzervik]

2. 9/11 conspiracy people.

[rodeodance]

3. ?????

[AlCzervik]

6. 9/11 conspiracy people in the audience being major disrupter's.

[JackBeck]

15. Good for them.

And fuck Bill for being a bully.

We're talking about never watching this show ever again.

Many people have lots of questions and yet dissent get bullied into shutting up.

[mondo joe]

18. Then they should get their own show instead of hijacking someone else's.

[JackBeck]

19. He once stood for freedom of speech and got fired from ABC.

eom.

[mondo joe]

20. Bull fucking shit. Bill is an adult and knows "free speech" doesn't entitle you to a tv show.

And ABC were assholes for dumping him, not for reasons of free speech.

His show isn't a free forum for every nut who wants an audience -- it's his show. He made it, he runs it.

[JackBeck]

23. ABC did fire him because he exercised his freedom of speech.

But tonight, Maher provoked this response on his live show. I find it odd that his immediate response to their reaction was to be violent.

[mondo joe]

25. No, ABC fired him because they were scared shitless of bd PR.

But it's not a matter of free speech in the legal sense.

[JackBeck]

29. You just proved my point.

He said something that some thought was unpopular.

And in you words "ABC fired him because they were scared shitless of bd PR".

Textbook stifling of free speech from where I come from.

[mondo joe]

32. Then you don't know what free speech is.

It's not having a TV show because you want to say something.

ABC were punk assholes - but they didn't infringe on Bill's rights in any way - including free speech.

[JackBeck]

37. They censored him by firing him.

That's infringing on Bill's free.

And now Maher is being a "punk asshole" by stifling the free speech of a live audience.

What I find curious is how Bill is trying to utilize the same tools that Bush did during his campaign to weed out dissenters. And he invoked violence. Pretty pathetic.

[mondo joe]

41. The right to free speech is he right to not have government infringe upon it.

ABC is a private network, just like DU is a private message board, which can and does prohibit and remove some things people say.

Try to learn what free speech IS.

And try to learn another difference: When Bill was fired it was from a show ABC payed him to do. He was at least doing what he was supposed to be doing, and what was mutually agreed upon.

Neither Bill nor HBO agreed to give the nutters an audience for their message.

[JackBeck]

55. ABC is not a private network.

Disney is a publicly owned corporation. Traded on the stock market and whatnot.

Anyone can join DU and even if they don't, lurkers can still see what we say, so maybe I posses a different definition of "private message board".

I know what free speech "IS". That's why I suck it up and figure out a counter-response anytime I hear the Phelps or FRC flap their gums.

And the last time I checked, free speech wasn't paid for by corporations.

[mondo joe]

57. No, publicly traded, not publicly owned.

Get a fucking clue, okay?

Anyone can join DU, but DU can also prohibit any number of things and kick people off and delete messages - it's PRIVATELY owned.

"And the last time I checked, free speech wasn't paid for by corporations." Well you got that right - that's why ABC didn't infringe upon Bill Maher's free speech. It wasn't Free Speech.

[JackBeck]

63. Sorry, but you said the ABC was a "private network".

It's not.

If it was privatized it wouldn't be subject to regualtion.

[mondo joe]

64. You have NO idea what you are talking about. It is privately owned, publicly traded.

It's not "privatized" but privately owned. And like all privately owned business it is subject to regulation.

[JackBeck]

66. You called ABC a "private network".

And that doesn't chill you in the least?

[mondo joe]

68. Why would it chill me? It is privately owned by its stockholders.

Apple is privately owned by its stockholders.

DU is privately owned by Skinner.

What's chilling about any of that?

[Toots]

115. It is a corporation that has gone public

That means that anyone in the public can buy and sell shares of it's company anytime they wish. While they own those shares they are part of the ownership of the company. It is all very public and they have little or no say in the management of the corporation, unless of course they break a certain threshhold of ownership, say 2% or some such. I am not sure what the actuall percentage might be but to actaully have any real voice you must own a substantial percentage although even if you own one share you get to receive information on the corporation not readily available to the general public.

[mondo joe]

116. You don't really understand what publicly traded means.

It means anyone in the public can buy shares. And those who have shares have some say - the public at large does not.

Obviously if you own just a minuscule piece you don't get much say.

And if you don't own any, you don't get any say.

[SOS]

119. Don't forget the White House comments against Maher

Ari Fleischer's comments on September 26, 2001 were directed squarely at Maher's free speech rights:

MR. FLEISCHER: I'm aware of the press reports about what he said. I have not seen the actual transcript of the show itself. But assuming the press reports are right, it's a terrible thing to say, and it unfortunate. And that's why -- there was an earlier question about has the President said anything to people in his own party -- they're reminders to all Americans that they need to watch what they say, watch what they do. This is not a time for remarks like that; there never is.

So the White House spokesman aimed at Maher, telling the nation we better "watch what we say" and there is "never" a time for Maher's opinion.

Immediately after Fleischer's comments ABC affiliates dumped Maher and two frightened sponsors (Sears and FedEx) pulled their ads.

The following June the show was canceled by ABC. Maher attributes the cancellation to the controversy surrounding his remarks. ABC said it was due to "declining ratings".

Eisner contributes more to Democrats than Republicans, so Maher was in fairly friendly corporate territory, but the pressure from the White House and Wall Street cost Maher his show.

You are correct that the government did not shut down Maher's show (hence he was not technically censored), but it is clear that the White House and the corporate sponsors hastened the silencing of Bill Maher's speech on the ABC network.

Since everything, from military hospitals to New Orleans levees are now privatized, is it possible that the tight connections between Wall Street and government are slowly "privatizing" our First Amendment rights?

"Freedom of the press is guaranteed only to those who own one." -- A. J. Liebling

[alcibiades_mystery]

80. You don't have the slightest clue about the concept of free speech

Ignorant. Plain ignorant.

Where you come from? I hope you don't pretend to come from New York with that Mets symbol, cuz I went to PS 79 Q and JHS 185 Q and I learned in both those places that free speech refers to government, not television networks. And that's what it said in my textbooks.

[JackBeck]

84. You learned from textbooks that "free speech refers to government, not television networks"?

And you accuse me of not having the slightest clue about the concept of free speech?

This is one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard.

[alcibiades_mystery]

85. I learned that free speech is about government

You betcha.

The concept of free speech in our society relates to government restriction of your ideas.

What did you learn? That every asshole can walk on to a tv set and say whatever he wants and not expect to be thrown off? Because THAT, friend, is bizarre.

[JackBeck]

87. I learned that free speech should not be restricted by government.

"The concept of free speech in our society relates to government restriction of your ideas."

And you stand by this statement?

[alcibiades_mystery]

114. Don't be coy

If you come into my house and call me an asshole, I can throw you out. But the government can't throw you in jail.

If you go on a television set and make a ruckus, they can throw you out. You might even get thrown in jail. For trespassing, not "speech."

The government can't throw you in jail for what you say and believe, with the proviso that what you say is not part of a criminal act or conspiracy. That's all that the right to free speech guarantees you. It doesn't guarantee you speech without consequences. It only guarantees you that the state apparatus cannot punish you for your thoughts and expressions.

Whether this happens in practice is a separate issue altogether, although you seem determined to confuse issues as a general mode of behavior. It's the sign of a sloppy mind.

[mondo joe]

86. Here's what the Constitution says.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Ooooh, bizarre!

[JackBeck]

88. Thanks for proving my point.

Glad you finally got it.

[mondo joe]

90. ABC, HBO and Bill Maher aren't congress or government.

It's amazing that anyone can be so consistently dumb in one thread, but you're a go-getter.

[spag68]

36. Did you actually watch?

I thought that he gave a fair amount of time for someone doing a live show. It is right to protest, however enough is enough. This was a good show, with some interesting points and these people with their actions caused us to miss at least some of what was interesting. The protesters should take it to the public offices of the city or the state, or heaven forbid the capital.

[JackBeck]

39. Bring it to anyone who will listen.

What's sad is that he immediately reacted with violence. He didn't even invite an open discussion.

[inthebrain]

40. I nearly just snarfed

Reading that was really funny.

Tell me you're not being seriouse here.

You have to be joking.

[mondo joe]

42. If someone started stealing your things would you invite open discussion?

If a bunch of freepers started posting on DU in violation of its stated rules should Skinner invite an open discussion?

[madeline_con]

43. Yes. If your beliefs can't stand up to criticism

they can't stand up.

[mondo joe]

47. Then you must have a problem with DU because it has plenty of rules, which

are applied quite frequently.

[madeline_con]

49. I don't have a problem with DU

I said arguing with Freekers would be fun.

[Milo_Bloom]

110. Invite open discussion?

So he is supposed to stop his show and let some nut job shouting from the audience have his say? For what reason exactly?

[radiclib]

44. Maher didn't provoke anything

and if his reaction was "violent", it's because security was asleep at the switch and he had to go into the audience himself.

[madeline_con]

50. Why? Were the conspiracy nuts beating someone up? n/t

[mondo joe]

52. Nah, they were stealing someone else's airtime.

[madeline_con]

54. Was Bill actually violent?

Or just violently angry?

[mondo joe]

58. I think he wasn't even violently angry. Just irked and mocking.

[JackBeck]

95. He got up and threatened his audience members.

And then openly discussed how he needs to fire his audience placers.

He's a total dick and this season we've questioned every week why we even bother watching his show.

[mondo joe]

97. For fuck's sake, I wish you'd follow through and stop watching then.

And if his audience placers continue to do this bad a job they do need to be fired.

[JackBeck]

100. So you believe in squashing dissenting opinions?

Any live show on TV should be hijacked by United States citizens searching for the truth.

[mondo joe]

101. No, I believe no one should be forced to subsidize other people's speech.

[JackBeck]

104. Care to share some examples?

[mondo joe]

106. Sure - those assholes on Bill Maher's show.

The broadcast of the show is paid for by other people. They sought to use that forum - paid for and maintained by others - for their own use.

It's no different than someone borrowing your car without permission (ie, stealing).

[liberalmuse]

34. Yuh. Because it's so easy to get your own show.

Right. Good, mindless slogan, though.

[mondo joe]

35. Since it's not easy, why sould Bill Maher have to hand his success over to others?

He made the show a success by making it what he wants it to be.

If the nutters had the capacity to put together a compelling message they wouldn't need to be parasites on others.

[Milo_Bloom]

111. Actually it is quite easy.

Its called YouTube Anyone can grab a camera and post their opinion for the world to see at any time.

[radiclib]

51. You're kidding, right?

Maher is a bully when some loudmouths disrupt his show? Since when is disruption "dissent"?

[JackBeck]

59. He got up and walked into the audience and threatened to take them out.

And when the dissent continued, he complained about how he needed to fire his staff that parsed the audience.

Didn't Bush do the same thing?

[mondo joe]

60. Bush is a pubicly accountable cvil servat - or is supposed to be. Bill Maher has

a talk show and an audience, which typically has conditions for guests.

[JackBeck]

65. So as a public civil servant he has a right to censor any audience members that may dissent?

And Bill Maher can conduct a live TV show where he can choose the political conditions for his guests?

Where's the difference?

And how can you possibly justify the conditions of either settings?

[mondo joe]

67. No - he doesn't. That's the point.

As a public servant whose "town halls" are funded by tax dollars, he should not be able to keep people out because they disagree with or don't like him. If they disrupt the activities, Bush (his staff, of course) have every right to remove them.

As for Bill Maher's show - they can kick out anyone they like for any reason (provided they are not doing so simply because they are a member of a protected class).

[JackBeck]

72. "If they disrupt the activities, Bush (his staff, of course) have every right to remove them."

And yet you continue to show your unwavering support for quashing free speech.

[mondo joe]

74. That's not quashing free speech.

It never has been.

[Guaranteed]

98. Read a fucking civics book.

I'm sick of morons screaming "Free Speech!" without understanding what it means. It makes the ACLU's job a lot tougher.

[JackBeck]

102. Care to explain?

[Milo_Bloom]

112. Who pays.

The public civil servant is paid by the people and subject to the rules of the constitution.

Bill Maher is paid by a corporation and is NOT subject to the rules of the constitution.

[radiclib]

118. Protesters are never allowed within a mile of Bush

let alone the same room.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

4. you can't say douchebag in here

that is reserved for the lounge only :9

[AlCzervik]

10. ******

douchebagdouchebagdouchebagdouchebagdouchebagdouchebagdouchebagdouchebagdouchebagdouchebagdouchebagdouchebagdouchebagdouchebagdouchebag

:D

[HCE SuiGeneris]

12. you

bastid

[AlCzervik]

13. Boobies!

[Poiuyt]

22. Boobies!

[madeline_con]

45. Their feet rock. n/t

[EFerrari]

8. I mentioned on another thread that I watched Chris on a local show

being interviewed.

He didn't look well. All of his tics were sort of wildly out of control. I wonder what the deal it.

[Sydnie]

9. WOW That was interesting.

I have never seen that before on Maher's show.

[AlCzervik]

11. me neither, well it's not tv it's crazy ass hbo.

[minkyboodle]

14. these hecklers are idiots

If they are 9/11 conspiracy people then it makes
sense, way to make yourself and one of the few forums
that allows independent views look ridiculous...
I swear to god I heard "Don't taze me bro"

[JackBeck]

16. Independent views???

Maher, if he really wanted to hear independent voices, wouldn't have threatened to beat the shit out of those audience members.

[Cameron27]

21. It's a panel discussion

not audience participation. I don't think he should have said beat the shit out of them, but it's his show, and he can kick them out.

[JackBeck]

24. Bullshit.

I look at all the activist groups that have been disruptors and got things done. If it wasn't for ACT-UP, we may not be as advanced with HIV/AIDS meds. They disrupted many a "panel discussion".

I've got much more.

[mondo joe]

27. Don't insult ACT-UP. ACT-UP was a hell of a lot more strategic than these

crack pots.

[JackBeck]

31. Many people thought ACT-UP were crackpots as well.

It wasn't after countless actions and disruptions that people actually started paying attention.

Chris Quinn was once an ACT-UP member.

[mondo joe]

33. ACT-UP was strategic at least mosty. These tin foilers are just crackpots.

And their little rant was anything but strategic. Or productive.

[JackBeck]

46. ACT-UP disrupted Prime Time news.

Not a public forum. And I support this disruption, as I do the Truth Movement's disruption on Bill's show this evening.

And how can you concluded so soon that this wasn't strategic on their part, nor productive?

[mondo joe]

48. The "Truth Movemet"? More like the a bowel movement.

[inthebrain]

53. And it's circling the drain

That's as a dead a movement as there ever was one. Not even the supposed far left whackos like Zinn and Chomsky are endorsing it.

Plenty of far right whackos are.

[JackBeck]

69. People said the same thing about HIV/AIDS in the 80's.

No one gave a shit about ACT-UP. Thank Jeebus they persisted, staged disruptive demonstrations, until finally someone listened.

[mondo joe]

70. Don't try to boost the credibility of the nutters by linking them to people who

had a legitimate issue they were fighting for.

[JackBeck]

76. People doubted ACT-UP at first.

And there still exists a denial.

[mondo joe]

78. People doubted creationists too. And the existence of WMDs in Iraq.

You're committing a logical fallacy.

[JackBeck]

81. Nope.

Just laying out how there's unpopular beliefs that many recognize as eventually being an actual truth.

On edit:

Just about everyone knows that both creationism and WMDs are bunk because of years of scientific vetting.

[minkyboodle]

71. seriously

you are slandering ACT-UP by comparing them to the 9/11 Conspiracy people

[JackBeck]

77. Nope. No slander.

Just comparing the denial.

[alcibiades_mystery]

82. ROFL

[JackBeck]

89. And you answered my questions........where????

[mondo joe]

91. Because their idiocy is self evident.

When they succeed in irritating and being laughed at even by the most anti-Bush people there are, they've proven their uselessness except as laughing stocks.

[JackBeck]

93. These are your own conclusions.

Most New Yorkers aren't laughing, since most of us know someone who was there or walking downtown while it all happened.

[mondo joe]

94. Sorry but most NYers aren't tin hat fools just because of 911. NT

[JackBeck]

96. Who said anything about tin foil hats?

I said that most New Yorkers know what happened.

And they share that experience.

[Blue_Roses]

117. exactly

:thumbsup:

[Drunken Irishman]

92. So you believe his show should be hijacked by anyone wanting to express their views?

Or just ones you agree with?

[JackBeck]

99. Yes, I believe in free speech, no matter how much I may disagree with the message.

I'll again refer back to how ACT-UP interrupted our Prime Time nightly news.

Did the majority of Americans agree with their view? Hell no.

Was it necessary? You bet.

[mondo joe]

103. That's not free speech. It's subsidized speech.

It's theft.

[JackBeck]

105. ACT-UP disrupting Prime Time news is not free speech?

How so?

[Milo_Bloom]

113. No, it's not.

Unless Prime Time News is paid for by the government.

Depending upon where they disput the news may have the right to have the disruptors arrested for trespassing.

[Drunken Irishman]

107. You believe in free speech...

Yet you seem to be ok with their speech drowning out others. I don't think anyone is saying they do not have their right to their opinion, but Bill Maher isn't the government, he doesn't need to impose the free speech idea anymore than DU does. DU can ban any Republican asshole that comes over here preaching their ideas, yet I doubt you'll shout DU down, right?

See the problem with your argument is that no one is impeding free speech, since it's not guaranteed once they enter that show. As an audience member, they have to abide by the rules just like everyone else. If you disrupt, you're going to get kicked out and your message will get ignored. I have every right to walk into a black church and yell out racist epithets, but you better believe I'm going to be shouted down, or worse, violently attacked.

It's my right to do that, I guess, but it'd very disrespectful and not very smart. I don't see how this is any different. I didn't tune into Bill Maher to hear a bunch of crazy people screaming about how 9-11 was the work of the government. I'm guessing those people that went to the show didn't go to listen to those people, either. If they want to express their views, go get a cable access show or stand on the corner like every cold blooded protesting American has done for years now.

And no, I don't think you can compare the 9-11 crazies with ACT-UP. To me, these people are no different than the Lyndon LaRouche groupies who go around screaming at the top of their lungs about how the Holocaust never happened, or how the Queen smuggles drugs.

[JackBeck]

108. There are still people today who advocate that HIV will never lead to an AIDS diagnosis.

And I can gaurentee you that just about no one on DU knows what an AIDS diagnosis actually is.

Even as much as I try to educate DUers about HIV/AIDS, I never shut them down. Even though science has got my back. And yet shows like Bill Maher and other so called liberal shows make a habit at misusing words that perpetuate the wrong education about HIV/AIDS.

"And no, I don't think you can compare the 9-11 crazies with ACT-UP. To me, these people are no different than the Lyndon LaRouche groupies who go around screaming at the top of their lungs about how the Holocaust never happened, or how the Queen smuggles drugs. "

So tell me, what constitutes an AIDS diagnosis?

[Drunken Irishman]

109. You can educate, but clearly this person wasn't there to educate.

He was there to shout and scream, not to get people to listen to his point.

You can educate without disrupting. I highly doubt you go around threads demanding people listen to you discuss HIV/AIDS, even when that thread has nothing to do with the topic at hand. These people were clearly there to disrupt, not to educate or get their message out. I have every right to advocate anything and everything, but that doesn't mean I can shout at the top of my lungs, in your house, that you're wrong and continue to do so even after you ask me to shut up. If I did, I bet you'd ask me to leave and if I didn't, you'd call the cops.

This is Bill Maher's show and he doesn't have to allow people to disrupt his show to get their message across. Just like I doubt people would be ok with me going into a church and demanding people listen to my anti-religion rants.

[Tinksrival]

17. I'm not sure why but

Tweety's giggle attacks crack me up. But I am really bored..so it doesn't take much. :silly:

[Strelnikov_]

26. Kasparov agrees with me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3030449#3030488

Putin is playing both sides in this conflict.

[Sydnie]

28. Best new rules rant in a while too!

:woohoo:

[rusty quoin]

61. Yes. Maher talked about Red States with divorce greater, and teen pregnancy higher

something about being knocked up and not talking to each other.

[bullwinkle428]

30. Tweety's probably still rattled from the direct hit he received from Stephanie Miller

on his show today!

[Democrat 4 Ever]

38. And Tweety probably hasn't sat down since his ass chewing on

The Daily Show by Jon Stewart. It hasn't been a pleasant book launch for the brain dead, twitchy, stupid acting Tweetster. HA! (Lordy that laugh is irritating!)

And tell me how did Tweety's Churchill quote fit into the discussion? I guess he figured since the word dog was used ol' Tweets hauled out the "Dogs look up to you, cats look down but pigs will look you right in the eye." Do wha!?! Guess this is an example of what a "deep thinker" old Tweety is suppose to be. According to Tweets, that quote is the most memorable thing that Churchill ever said? Jeez, Louise, that's sad.

Overall a couple of really bad weeks for Tweety.

[rockymountaindem]

56. I saw that earlier and I couldn't believe it

I mean, you'd think a professional would be better prepared to have someone say bad things about him. But no, he was *completely* thrown off his game. Even in the next segment you could tell he was still in shock. It was great.

[rusty quoin]

62. I actually wish Stephanie had not said it. It was clumsy.

It was her worst appearance on cable from what I've seen. I bet she regrets it.

[flyarm]

73. bullshit..it is about damn time someone took on tweety..she was marvelous!!

Stephanie was refreshing ..just as Pete Stark was..truth is refreshing for a change!

when did DU become so damn afraid to speak the damn truth?

fly

[rusty quoin]

83. I disagree. As I said before it was clumsy. Not all speaking what you think is good.

It didn't play well.

It will blow over, and I hope Matthews invites Stephanie back, because she is to good. Her radio show kids around with the bells, whistles and jokes so much that maybe she got mixed up.

[TwilightGardener]

75. Why appear on someone's show and then insult him? He's giving YOU, the

guest, free publicity and a chance to air your views. I thought it was a rude and stupid thing to do--and Tweety may be inconsistent, but he's far from a "right wing tool". I'm not into confrontation for confrontation's sake. There was no point in what she did.

[DesertRat]

79. It comes on here in 20 minutes. Sounds good

I have it set to record, but I think I'll stay up and watch.