La Raza pulls its KC convention

[proud2BlibKansan]

La Raza pulls its KC convention
By DEANN SMITH
The Kansas City Star

The National Council of La Raza’s board voted this afternoon to yank its 2009 convention from Kansas City in protest of a park board appointee belonging to a group it believes is hostile to Hispanics.

The board followed the recommendation of local La Raza affiliates, who had asked the board to pull the convention. Two months ago, the head of La Raza, Kansas native Janet Murguía, told Mayor Mark Funkhouser that if his appointee, Frances Semler, didn’t step down from the park board, La Raza would likely pull the convention.

The convention had been expected to fill more than 5,000 hotel rooms, with an economic impact to the city of more than $5 million.

Today’s vote came after a federal mediator was unable Friday to resolve the differences between Funkhouser and some local Hispanic leaders. Funkhouser, citing his principles, was unwilling to consider asking Semler to step down from the park board or the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps.

Local Hispanic leaders said their principles would not allow them to reward economically a city that supports a group that conducts armed patrols of the Mexican border and that they believe uses hateful speech toward Latinos, both illegal and legal.

Semler and Minuteman members say she belongs to a law-abiding group that is not racist and her political views should have nothing to do with her service on the park board.

Funkhouser will now turn his attention to retaining the NAACP convention. NAACP officials have said they would have to strongly consider La Raza’s decision before deciding whether to pull their 2010 convention from Kansas City.

http://www.kansascity.com/115/story/325903.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. And if NAACP goes, NCAA will honor that boycott

So all the sports fans will be losing their college basketball games in the brand new downtown arena.

Ain't the minutemen grand? :grr:

[Xipe Totec]

2. Good for them

They can stand on their principles and support a law-abiding group of not racist xenophobes and starve.

See ya.

[rwheeler31]

5. What law are the minutia men abiding?

[Xipe Totec]

6. I honestly have no clue

My guess would be none.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. Murphy's Law

[EFerrari]

15. The Law of @sshole Magnets. n/t

[DeSwiss]

3. Spot On La Raza!!! K&R!!!!!!! n/t

[rwheeler31]

4. Make him and the city hurt, they have been totally irresponsible

on this issue.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. Yes indeed he has

But the city hasn't done anything. Well - except elect a stupid mayor.

[UTUSN]

8. K&R #4 for BwahhahaHAH!1 "group that is not racist" Here are their members in the early days,

before they learned some basic p.r. principles, like, HIDE YOUR REAL MEMBERS!!1


http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/08/minutemen-home-for-extremists_08.html


Here's how Minutemen in Austin, TX, shouted down a Mexican-American member of the city council, with,
"GO BACK TO MEXICO!!1" Never mind that the councilman is a U.S. citizen.

http://www.statesman.com/search/content/news/stories/local/12/17minutemen.html



http://notexasborderwall.com/

[EFerrari]

14. It could be worse! It could be Mexican flags!

lol

[Blaze Diem]

10. haaaaaa..LaRaza should take their convention to Mexico

& take about 12million illegals with them. Christ we're talking about the damn park board.
I have been in this country all my life. Its part of living in a society of MIXED races. Not just one. Get over yourselves. Many have also struggled.

So this great big LaRaza organization is going to flex their muscles and pull their convention because ONE effing person doesn't believe as they want him to.
Get used to it. It happens in this country every other day for me. Geez,I don't expect everyone to support my plans, ideology, values, or opinions. If that were the case we'd have a Nation of Bush clones.
I thought this Nation was successful because of our differences .

I post on DU because I have a desire, in common with others here, to keep Bush in check and fight for the freedom to express my concerns, through speech etc.

I see this move by LaRaza as doing exactly the same thing as the Bush Admin does when he strong arms those who have an opinion contrary to his agenda.
No one is going to agree with LaRaza all the time, except maybe back in Mexico. It makes their group look like a bunch of bullies.

Hope they find a city to hold their convention where no one shows their concerns about immigration. What did they want? The park board member to lose his job because he expressed his belief? hmmm sounds a little like what I come here to DU to fight against with the Bush policies.
Good Luck.

That's just how I see this move. Hey, they are free to go anywhere they want.
Better Luck somewhere else.

This country is not going to come to a standstill because LaRaza or any other organization wants it that way.
No one group is that powerful in this nation, well except maybe BushCo.

------------Just stating my opinion...This is DU, right? And I am certainly allowed to do so.\
nite.

[EFerrari]

11. So, you support everyone's right to their opinion

except La Raza?

lol

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. No actually we are taking about $5 million + in lost revenue

which the city can't really afford to lose.

[EFerrari]

13. I feel bad for all the working people in KC who will suffer

because of this dumb decision and its fallout like La Raza going elsewhere. :(

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. And all the business owners

many who invested in businesses in the revitalized downtown, hoping to make big money when conventions come to town. And the La Raza convention was one of the largest.

If NAACP pulls out too the city is royally screwn. And all because of an old lady who is afraid of immigrants.

[EFerrari]

17. Why can't she just embrace the Invasion?

The ripples go out all over the community.

When our hotel workers went on strike, even Newsom and his haircut walked the picket line in desperation. (Okay, that wasn't nice.)

It makes you wonder how much their fear is worth to them. :(

[Blaze Diem]

18. or because of LaARaza who is too narrow minded to

accept that one park board member doesn't believe as they want him to.

Glad that in this nation of many different races, we can evolve into a society that shows the next generation, it is no longer about the bullying and stong arm of one race over another. Tolerance is taught by example.

[EFerrari]

19. Exactly. And La Raza is teaching zero tolerance for bigots.

:)

[Blaze Diem]

25. Or is LaRaza becoming the bigots they grandly admonish others for?

Careful, its a pretty fine line there.

Sounds like its LaRaza's way or no way. Sounds a bit bigoted to me.
Love to stay and chat but I've got an early morning.
Here's a link to a subject much more interesting than debating a non-debatable subject like immigration.
I like Edwards. He's got a vision and a way to bring it about.
I like him because he sees corporate government for what it is.
He has fought for the underdog throughout his career and those values still hold true.
He understands the need to teach tolerance.
Later.

---------------
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3628382

[EFerrari]

27. And the answer to that would be, no.

lol

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Is La Raza engaging in violence?

Do they advocate carrying guns and shooting the people they disagree with? Does La Raza go to day labor centers and harrass and assault the laborers, even the ones who ARE US citizens? Does a La Raza meeting allow inflammatory rhetoric advocating violence against people whose skin is a different color than theirs?

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. It's not a matter of a simple difference of opinion

It's about bigotry and criminal behavior by a group of haters. The minutemen have been especially bad here. They harrass ALL Hispanics, even the American citizens.

[TahitiNut]

20. It'll hit the "hospitality industry" hardest.

Hotel housekeeping staff, restaurant employees, tourism, etc. ... precisely where low-wage Hispanics (including 'undocumented workers') are most heavily employed.

Ready, aim, shoot foot.

[EFerrari]

22. That may be true. But isn't it something to see a group stand tall

for once.

How else do we ever get anywhere?

It only very recently became real to me that people lost their lives over the struggle for Civil Rights in the 60s. I was not living the high life but I was safe. No one was looking to exclude me or worse. That happened here.

In the short term, yes, Latino service workers in KC will suffer. But, maybe it's better to be in it for the long haul, or as Class Warrior says, NGU. :)

[roody]

44. They should be nice like Nancy Pelosi

and stand for nothing.

[KG]

26. so the hospitality industry in another town that doesn't employ openly racist assholes

will get the benefit.

[TahitiNut]

30. Maybe that should be Tijuana, Nuevo Laredo, Guadalupe, or Hermosillo?

Hell ... that's the economy of greatest concern, right?

[EFerrari]

71. You know and I know that only that 1% anywhere is the economy

that really counts. The rest of us can go take a walk.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rucky]

23. Here is where my brain starts to hurt.

On one side, we have a fairly large group of Americans with a rabid hatred of brown people.

On the other side, we have a woman and an African-American as our most likely nominees.

This election is pretty goddamn important, dontcha think? It will define an already suspect America in the eyes of the world. If Rudy or Mittens or any of those other nutbags actually get elected, our reputation is pretty much shot for good.

[struggle4progress]

24. "Semler acknowledges that she wasn't exactly forthright with Funkhouser when, before he appointed ..

her to the parks board, he asked whether she was a member of other organizations ... Her membership in the Minutemen, she says, just didn't seem relevant. But on June 12 .. she said she was "not active" in the local group. That wasn't exactly forthright, either. Semler had been at the August 30, 2006, inaugural meeting of .. the Heart of America Chapter ... Two weeks later, Semler drove 60 miles to .. Topeka for another Minuteman recruiting meeting .. By the end of September 2006, the local Minutemen had organized their first large gathering — and Semler was there ... Nine City Council members voted in favor of a resolution asking Funkhouser to oust Semler ..."

The Real Mrs. Semler
By Carolyn Szczepanski
Published: October 11, 2007
http://news.pitch.com/2007-10-11/news/the-real-mrs-semler/1

So she's a less-than-honest rightwing fruitcake. I think she's entitled to hold whatever wacko opinions she wants -- but I really can't blame La Raza for saying we can't come until she goes

[EFerrari]

28. It may not be known to most DUers who are decent people

and who tend to want to take people at their word.

But the "Minute Men" are a bunch of wife beating, drug dealing, illegal arms selling, petty thieving, shooting each other in the face @ssholes. When they manage to get out of their lawn chairs.

I mean, they are nothing to write home about.

LinkTV ran a documentary about one of these freep militias, "Walking the Line". Bring your strongest stomach.

http://www.walkingthelinefilm.com/default.htm

[mvccd1000]

31. Hasty Generalization?

I donated to the fence project the Minutemen were sponsoring. I've never done any of the things you mention (except, perhaps, petty thievery... not sure my employer pays me to spend time here). :)

I am all for expanding legal immigration. I'm also all for removing people who flaunt the laws of our nation. If you don't like the law, change it - don't break it.

EVERY branch of my family immigrated here within the last few generations. Every one of them also did so legally.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. The local chapter here who is stirring all this up is violent

We are all too familiar with them. They actually go to day labor centers and assault the laborers. We have been to their meetings. They advocate sending the 'illegals' back by any means necessary. They have attempted to kidnap Hispanics. They keep our cops very busy.

I have no doubt that some who admire the minutemen and their fence project honestly believe they are just law abiding citizens, wanting to address an important issue in a pro-active way. Perhaps some chapters of the minutemen are law abiding. But the one here is not. They describe themselves as just a neighborhood crime watch group but as the political cartoonist at the local paper pointed out, how many other neighborhood watch groups only focus on ONE crime?

There has also been a split in the minutemen leadership at the national level. They fought over money and there have been accusations of fraud and misappropriation of funds. I believe there is an active lawsuit as well as criminal investigations ongoing. So now there are two national groups. One is run by a man with a history of violence and domestic assault. The other is somewhat less violent. But both groups engage in racist rhetoric to recruit new members and raise money.

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/08/15/news/top_stories/81407213243.txt

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=689

BTW, here is the fence you donated for. The one on the left is what they claimed they would build. The one on the right is what they actually built:


And an article about the minutemen founder:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?site_area=1&aid=149

[mvccd1000]

37. I agree - I'm pretty disappointed with them.

I just didn't want to be lumped into the categories mentioned above. :)

I do support legal immigration and guest worker programs.

I do not support illegal immigration or illegal immigrants. The government wasn't doing anything about that, so I had hopes that the minutemen would. Those hopes have since been dashed.

I am not particularly racist - I don't care what shape, size, or color an immigrant is, as long as they are legal. I don't get the impression that the minutemen share the same views.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. It is nearly impossible to immigrate here legally from Central America

The laws were changed under Reagan and now favor immigrants from European countries. The waiting list for Hispanics is very long and many are too desperate to wait and come here legally. And when you consider the effect NAFTA and CAFTA have had on the economies of the countries many of these 'illegals' are coming from, I do think we need to be more welcoming and inclusive.

So our laws definitely need to be changed in order for these immigrants to come here legally. But if you are a racist and that is what inspires your involvement in the minutemen, then of course you won't support changing the laws or helping these people. (Not implying YOU, mvccd, are a racist, just speaking to the others who have different motives for supporting the minutemen.)

[mvccd1000]

40. Agreed - the laws should be changed.

But I still don't support breaking them. I have not studied the issue enough to know who or how to portion the immigration slots out, but I would think it should be according to what would help the USA. If we need more guest workers to pick apples, so be it. If we need more Romanian computer programmers, so be it.

As I said, I don't care about the race. I care about the respect they have for our laws. The groups (La Raza) that come here and wave the flag of another country when demanding rights in ours DO piss me off, though. Not because they are Latino, but because that reminds me of a burglar breaking into my house and then telling me it's going to be his house now.

Come here the right way, and all of us should welcome you with open arms. I do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. La Raza is responding to hatred directed at Hispanics

and I applaud them. When my ancestors came here, they did not abandon their Irish heritage, they embraced it and made sure their children understood the culture they came from. And when they were mistreated and discriminated against, they also formed groups to counter the anti-Irish sentiment. I was taught to appreciate the country I was born in, but also to remember that my ancestors sacrificed much and endured years of being treated "worse than slaves" since slaves were worth money and Irish were not.

And I was also to taught to cherish my ancestors who were willing to come here illegally, since they couldn't afford the passage to come here legally. So I can't be a hypocrite and criticize those doing exactly what my ancestors did.

[EFerrari]

41. No. Informed generalization. Do you also belong to

white supremacist groups?

[mvccd1000]

43. Nope.

As I said in one of my posts above, I'm not particularly racist. In fact, the most ignorant people I've ever met have been in racist groups (in any race). White supremacists embarrass me, because I'm afraid people will lump me into the same category simply for being white.

I do not support illegal immigration by anyone of any color, though. My family has lines that go back to Germany, Russia, Denmark, French Canada, England, and unknown (my grandfather was an orphan). I would have even less patience with an illegal immigrant from any of those countries than I do with illegals from Central America; for the simple fact that they can hardly use the crushing poverty/better life excuses.

I am all for allowing more immigration and improving guest worker programs. I will never be for people coming here illegally. I'll also never be for someone breaking into my house and then claiming rights to it just because they're already there, either.

Race has nothing to do with it. Respect for our laws has everything to do with it.

[EFerrari]

46. Respecting the laws of foreign nations is a good idea

and the sooner the United States begins to do that, the world will be a better place.

[datasuspect]

48. so let me get this straight,

you are here on DU, admitting that you are not "particularly" racist. perhaps you are misspeaking, but you do realize that when you say that you aren't particularly racist, you are saying that you are somewhat racist in given situations.

do i have this right?

in light of your admission of donating funds to the minutemen, and if i am reading you right, all i can say is, jesus fucking christ.

[mvccd1000]

53. Yes, you have it right. I hope you have more than that to say, though. :)

Racist does not mean discriminatory. I think any person who says he is 0% racist is lying to himself. Everyone who has met more than one person of a particular race probably notices something about that race that is different than his own race. Whether you think that is better than you, worse than you, or only different than you, it's still racism. Your thought process at that point is based on race. That process may result in no discrimination whatsoever, but it is still racism.

I will admit that if I see a Pakistani behind the counter of a 7-11, I'm more apt to think he owns it than to think he is robbing it.
Is that bad? Not necessarily.
Discriminatory? No.
Racist? Yes.

Thoughts do pop into my head based on race. I don't discriminate based on them, but that does make me racist to some extent.

And you?




BTW, I donated to build a fence. I have no problem with legal immigration, but I have a big problem with people breaking our laws, and trashing our land in the process. I am somewhat let down by what the minutemen have turned out to be (ok, very let down), but no one else is stepping up to do it.

[datasuspect]

57. you don't get to redefine the common accepted definitions of english words

you cannot twist the word racism into something benign.

and i needn't say anything further. you said more than enough yourself.

give people enough rope and they will hang themselves with it.

[mvccd1000]

58. I believe I spoke accurately....

Had I said, "I am not racist," someone would have made one of the points I just made and proved that I am. All I did was beat them to it.

Do you support affirmative action? Oops, guess you're a racist, too. Welcome to the club.

[datasuspect]

60. just speak plainly

if you are something, own it. don't try to conform reality to your delusion.

[mvccd1000]

62. No delusions.

You missed my question. Do you support affirmative action, or any other race-based programs? That is racism. Arguably positive racism, but racism nonetheless. If you support those programs, you are a racist. Does that make you a bad person? No, but it does make you someone who makes a decision based on race.

I'm sorry if you can't see past your own negative connotations of the word.

[datasuspect]

63. it's not that easy

this board is littered with more capable and better spoken ones who have tried the same tactics you vainly are attempting to use.

nope.

you don't get to do it.

i'll speak with you on a meta-level, because attempting REAL conversation with the type are starting to represent is like trying to corral pigeons: you only get a bunch of skittish pigeons and a lot of pigeon shit.

nice try though.

i can easily dismiss you because you are an admitted racist and a minute man booster.

i'm trying to figure out what you are here for.

[mvccd1000]

67. Have you read any of my posts?

I said I supported a fence. I then said I became very disappointed in what the minutemen turned out to be. Obviously not a supporter.

My brother's wife, and one of my previous girlfriends are both Mexican (as in, from Mexico, and in the girlfriend's case, lives in Mexico). I guess I don't discriminate there....

I said I am not particularly racist. If I walk by a boombox playing R&B with a white guy and a black guy standing next to it, I'm probably going to assume it's the black guy's music. Is that racist of me? Yes. Does it make me a bad person or mean that I discriminate against blacks? I hope not.

How is it that I'm such a bad person just because I can admit the truth? Are you going to tell me that you would walk by the same boombox, and your mind would stay completely blank? You would not have the slightest thought that it could be the white guy's music or the black guy's music? If that is the honest truth, then congratulations; I'm glad to have met my first completely non-racist person.



(The funny thing here is that - whether we agree or not on immigration - I would suspect we share similar views on races. We're arguing about our words, not our concepts.)

[datasuspect]

69. like i said

you don't get to redefine words to make racism something benign.

sorry, you just don't get to do that.

we don't share similar views on races.

[mvccd1000]

74. Oh?

I've posted two questions that you chose not to answer, so I guess I can't know where you stand on race.

I do not believe in, nor do I practice, discrimination based on a person's race. I find people who do so to be contemptible. Those are my views on race. I have lived with, worked with, and loved people of other races. I know where I stand, and I am comfortable with it.

Feel free to actually discuss any of the examples I gave and tell me why you think they make me a bad person, if you like. Please don't make me out to be a bad person simply because I use a word in a manner with which you do not agree.

[datasuspect]

76. i don't even know you

i cannot make judgments regarding the status of your personhood.

and don't blame me because you choose to use english words in completely different ways than 99% of english speaker do.

account for your reegineering of commonly accepted usages.

[mvccd1000]

80. Accounting now. :)

Apparently it would have been easier to just go with the other 99%.... I apologize for all of the excitement. :)

[datasuspect]

81. dear anonymous person on the internet

you possess a very legalistic conception of the universe.

there will never be an actual basis upon which we can communicate meaningfully.

[EFerrari]

70. Affirmative Action is not racism, it's a counter to racism.

If there were no racism in this country, we wouldn't need it.

[roody]

45. Que Viva La Raza!

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. And she is a leader in the local chapter

Some of our local justice activists have gone to the minutemen meetings and plan on going again. Mrs Semler is on their executive board. She helps run the meetings.

And the rhetoric at those meetings is unreal. I never went to a KKK meeting but I can't imagine them being more racist and zenophobic. At a rally they held in a park, one of my friends spoke out and tried to dispute something one of them said and a gang of them rushed him and pushed him out into the street. A little girl got tangled up in the melee and almost got hit by a car. None of the minutemen helped her; my friend went to her aid.

The minutemen have also vowed to have THEIR convention here in KC. Like their economic impact would somehow replace La Raza's? They are delusional at best. The city will lose $5 million with the La Raza convention leaving and if NAACP leaves as well, the loss will approach $15 million. All because of a frightened little old lady (who is also dishonest - thanks for that link!).

[EFerrari]

29. kick

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. The mayor just sent out an email response to La Raza's decision:

"I am disappointed that the National Council of La Raza has decided not to hold its convention here. We worked awfully hard to try to work out a compromise so they would come. I appreciate the efforts of Congressman Emanuel Cleaver, and those of federal mediator Pascual G. Marquez."

[EFerrari]

49. Maybe he was afraid the Minute Men were going to shoot him. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. He certainly seems to fear something here

He is also not a politician. He was a hired city official who ran for mayor and won. He clearly does not know how to behave like a politician and when that may be appropriate.

[aikoaiko]

35. Pulling out over a town/state policy makes sense, not over a minor politician's group membership

:shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. It's not really a minor role and she is not a politician

She is a friend of the mayor's who worked on his campaign and was rewarded by an appointment to the parks board, which is a very big deal here. KC has more park land than almost every other city in the country. There is a long history of the parks in this city and the efforts to preserve them. The parks board is very active and very influential in KC.

[aikoaiko]

100. Well to me a political appointee is a politician too.

pol·i·ti·cian –noun
1. a person who is active in party politics.
2. a seeker or holder of public office, who is more concerned about winning favor or retaining power than about maintaining principles.
3. a person who holds a political office.
4. a person skilled in political government or administration; statesman or stateswoman.
5. an expert in politics or political government.
6. a person who seeks to gain power or advancement within an organization in ways that are generally disapproved.

I understand she wields some power on the Parks Board, but it still seems disproportionate. I don't see how her being part of a anti-illegal immigrant group (even one as infamous as the MinuteMen) is worth pulling a convention. I would have to see some case made that her participation in MinuteMen was contraindicated by her job in order to support La Raza. Every state where La Raza may go has Republicans working for the State government. La Raza should have a bigger beef with them than the MinuteMen.

Of course, La Raza is free to go where they wish.

[hansberrym]

47. Sorry to hear it LR, .... but don't let the door hit you in the ass.

As long as La Raza advocates on behalf of Hispanics regardless of immigration status, they have no business labeling others racist.

It is one thing to strive to get a fair deal for one's own particular ethnic or religious group and to form associations to achieve that purpose. But it crosses the line to advocate for one's ethinic group regardless of immigration status.
Such advocacy becomes racism when it places allegiance to one's race above allegiance to the nation as a whole.



http://www.nclr.org/content/faqs/detail/43266

[datasuspect]

50. you DO understand that there is no latino "race"

and that in many cases, they are considered "white" in terms of racial labelling?

how is advocacy racism? are they denying other white people of different ethnicities anything?

[mvccd1000]

54. You're right, but what does "La Raza" translate to in English? nt

[EFerrari]

55. It isn't used idiomatically as "the race" but as "the people"

just as "el pueblo" isn't used to mean "the village" but "the community".

[datasuspect]

56. it connotes "the people" in spanish

it's not a literal one for one translation.

this is what they mean when they say certain things get lost in the translation.

a person could argue for literal one for one meanings in translating any language, but then they would appear unsophisticated and rather ignorant.

[mvccd1000]

59. Now who's twisting words? nt

[datasuspect]

61. there is a difference between connotation and literal meaning

that's why furriners have such problems with english colloquialisms.

it's not ill intent on my part, it's just the nature of language. your argument isn't with me, it's with commonly held ideas and views on language and your own personal misunderstanding.

disabuse yourself of error and the world will open up for you in such dramatic ways.

[EFerrari]

64. I never realized that there are people who believe

La Raza is a racist organization of brown people who look down on white people.

[proud2BlibKansan]

96. They are probably all from Kansas City

That is a widely held opinion here.

[mvccd1000]

68. Sorry - I was just being facetious. My sense of humor often gets the best of me. :)

I was not aware of the colloquial meaning of La Raza, so thank you for sharing it.

I tried to take Spanish in college, and I tried again to learn it when I was dating a girl in Mexico, but I didn't have much luck.

I actually had an easier time picking up Thai in Thailand than I did Spanish in Arizona.

[UncleSepp]

97. LOLOLOL High five, friend. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. Unfamiliar with idiomatic expressions I see

Twisting words - that's a new one :rofl:

[UncleSepp]

101. You probably can't see it from inside the argument...

...but from outside, it was a pretty funny play on words. You might think about dropping the roflsmiley and the giant chip on your shoulder and actually developing a sense of humor about things.

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. Oh I am laughing alright

:rofl:

[UncleSepp]

104. *sigh* Does that really make you feel better?

At the end of your day, does that really make you feel like you're building common cause? Like you're working with people who want basically what you want? Does it really make you feel like you're winning? Is it really enough for you to say "Hey, I had a great day, I posted some rolling on the floor smileys at people on a BBS!"

[proud2BlibKansan]

105. When people refuse to listen and understand the FACTS

what choice is there? I come here to be educated. I have learned a great deal about this topic especially. The Spanish speaking DUers, many of whom I have come to greatly respect, some I have met in real life, have assured us over and over that 'La Raza' means 'the people'. My Spanish speaking friends have told me the same thing. But the bigots, some of whom admire the minutemen, and who want all these Hispanic immigrants to leave the US, have continued to promote the incorrect translation of 'la raza' as 'the race'. When I see that definition given here on DU and then when it is corrected by a fluent Spanish speaker, and a DUer refuses to be educated, I would really rather cry than laugh. I expect progressives to be more intelligent than that.

It all gets down to the language and the talking points. The right wing is a master at controlling the language. How sad that some DUers cling to right wing talking points when discussing important issues. So yes, laughing is so much better in this situation.

[Zookeeper]

99. You are right that there is no Latino "race"

so, why is everyone who is concerned with illegal immigration instantly branded a racist?

I think you just contradicted a prime talking point.

[EFerrari]

51. That's not racisim. That's called "humanity". n/t

[fishwax]

78. it's absurd to claim that makes them racist

Q: Does NCLR support undocumented immigrants?

A: NCLR advocates on behalf of the entire Latino population regardless of immigration status. We believe that all persons deserve dignity and respect, and that the human rights and civil rights of all persons must be upheld.

That makes them racist? Bullshit. I don't even see how that translates into putting allegiance to race over allegiance to the nation--perhaps they believe that defending the dignity and civil rights of everyone--regardless of immigration status--is actually in the best interests of the nation :think:

[catmandu57]

65. The mimutemen are just another flavor of skinhead and kkk

They hate and hate violently, they are the mirror opposite of the majority of posters here. La Raza attempted to work something out, funkhouser got bulled up so they did too, this wasn't something done on the spur of the moment.

As far as I'm concerned they are justified in taking their business where they want, It makes everyone look bad, but, it's past time to stand up to these racist mothers. Speaking of which this thread brought them out of the woodwork didn't it?

[datasuspect]

66. and they have no compunction in admitting that they are racists publicly

tells me way too much about how comfortable they feel about it.

it's open season folks.

[mvccd1000]

72. That should disgust all of us....

... the quandary for me is that they are undertaking an action I think is right (securing our borders), for reason I believe are wrong (race-based discrimination).

What if your favorite politician manages to push through your favorite issue, but did so for reasons that were reprehensible to you? Would you still support the action?

[datasuspect]

73. what, something like a "final solution to the mexican question"

give it up.

you are out of your depth.

[mvccd1000]

75. Why are you making me out to be something I'm not?

I don't believe there are "Final Solutions" to much of anything.

I don't believe there is a "Mexican Problem."

I do believe we should increase the numbers of immigrants we allow.

I do believe we should expand and improve our guest worker (or work visa) program.

I do NOT believe we should coddle people who break our law. It appears that we differ on that last one.

[datasuspect]

77. i'm just letting you talk

and trying to catch you on your use of the english language. that's all.

[mvccd1000]

82. Thanks - I do that so well. :)

And it looks like you caught me, too. I was, in fact, using the English language (or at least, our Americanized version of it).

[datasuspect]

83. i guess malapropisms and distorted meaning counts too

[mvccd1000]

84. I'm not confused, and...

... it seems that all you've done is follow me around posting your opinions of me, rather than the subject at hand.

I've now stated what I think of immigration, immigrants, the minutemen, and the border fence.

You've stated what you think of me and my opinions.

Thanks for contributing.

[datasuspect]

85. did you honestly think you could post that you are an admitted racist and minute man booster

and expect hugs?

[mvccd1000]

86. Discussion would have been nice.

I was willing to find out more about your views; you simply started castigating mine.

As anyone who's read my posts can probably pick up, I'm among the least racist people you will meet. I do not believe there are ANY people on this planet who completely hold no opinions of any race. I honestly do not believe that can happen.

The girl I share an office with has a white mother and a black father, and SHE makes observations based on race. More frequently than I do, in fact.

You chose to simply jump on my choice of words, with no consideration given to the meaning behind them.

Have you had an interracial boy/girlfriend? Lived with people of other races? Worked with them? I have, I do, and I will again. Doesn't mean I don't automatically think my Mexican girlfriend was more likely to enjoy a burrito than my Thai girlfriend is.

If that turns me into Satan in your eyes, I guess there's nothing I can do to change that.

[EFerrari]

87. Maybe we can turn this around. Do you think that fence will work?

It doesn't seem to me to be a very effective solution.

[mvccd1000]

88. Thank you, expat.

I was starting to feel like I had stepped in quicksand. :)

Alone, I think the fence will be nearly worthless. Combined with a workable guest worker program, increased, streamlined immigration rules, and either penalties or some other disincentives for businesses to hire illegal immigrants, I think it is a step in the right direction.

I live in Arizona. I see our deserts destroyed by illegals trampling and trucking through them. (Where were the environmental studies on THAT?). I see the crimes caused by them, or by the act of smuggling them in. I see the way they are used and abused. Those things need to stop, and some program that stops providing incentive for people to come here illegally, and stops providing incentive for businesses to hire them, needs to be put in place.

As I've stated (several times above), I'm for immigration. I'm not against Mexicans or Central Americans. I only have a problem with the illegal part. (And, apparently, with my grasp of the English language.) :)

[EFerrari]

89. I have a big problem with the illegal part, too, because it's dangerous.

There's a huge pool of hardworking people in this country that have no recourse to the law at all. Imagine being robbed or attacked or raped and you don't dare call the police. It's a terrible situation.

There's got to be a way to mainstream these workers that is safe for all of us and that doesn't pit one working person against another in such an abusive way.

[suffragette]

90. Please realize that organizations like the Minutemen

did not come into existence to actually help with any of these issues. They have a much uglier agenda.

The people who founded these have a long history of creating organizations which address concerns such as yours on the surface but are actually based on hate and fear at their core.

Here are a couple of links to articles which detail what these organizations and their founders are really about. The articles are very long, but well worth reading. Additionally, some of these groups (Coe's in particular) have been very active in working to disenfranchise voters. I can find articles about that if you're interested in reading more.

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/01/march-of-minutemen.html

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=181

[EFerrari]

92. The Minute Men are just Black Water with no political connections. nt

[suffragette]

94. Or, at least, less well-connected.

Their connections aren't always as obvious, but they are there.

Look at all the Republicans who have voiced support for them.

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/01/march-of-minutemen_17.html

But yeah, thankfully they aren't getting the big bucks siphoned to them that Blackwater gets.

[EFerrari]

79. That film shows these animals shooting holes in the containers

of water that a priest sets out in the desert so people don't die. It also shows them stalking people as if they were game. It's the most disgusting thing I've ever seen.

To be accurate, the film doesn't feature the Minute Men but a different group.

[proud2BlibKansan]

95. They are out of the woodwork in KC

check out the Star online. The comments being left at the end of articles on this issue are just repulsive.

What amazes me is the willingness of these people to give up $15 million in revenue. Absolutely mind blowing.

[Telly Savalas]

103. Kansas Citians seem to take pride in electing city government officials

who think it's a bad day unless they've given a big fat tax break to a developer. (Even the Funk seems pretty happy to hand out cash to Andrews McMeel Universal so that they can move from the Plaza to Downtown.)

Given the state of the infrastructure, school system, and public transportation in Kansas City, Missouri, I think the only thing they spend tax dollars on is mowing the median of Ward Parkway. So it really should be a surprise that folks don't care about losing $15 million in revenue.

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. How ironic that Alvin Brooks lost this election

because of a desire to move away from a connected politician. Funkhouser has been a nightmare and is cowtowing to the minutemen. I would rather have a career politician as mayor than this stubborn idiot.

But then I live in Kansas and some say I don't have a voice in KCMO politics. :shrug:

[Telly Savalas]

107. I think it may be a case of the Peter Principle at work.

I got here pretty late in the game, but from what I've read it seems that the Funk was a pretty able city auditor. He's been pretty disappointing as mayor, though.

[marmar]

108. Good for them....Hit them where it hurts.

I hope the NAACP and NCAA do follow suit. Unidad!