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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:04 PM
Original message
Our Tragic State of Nation
Today the Chinese government told the bear where to shit in the woods. They let us know that they are unhappy with their client, the U.S. Indeed, the Chinese Foreign Minister now confirms that China's last-minute cancellation of a U.S. Navy visit to Hong Kong was not the result of a misunderstanding, but because American/Chinese ties are "disturbed and harmed". While he refused to elaborate, his negative characterization of U.S.-China relations appeared to indicate that Beijing canceled the visit deliberately in order to register its displeasure over U.S. actions.

Don't be deceived. It's not just the sale of weapons to Taiwan or the visit by the Dalai Lama that has China miffed. It's also the cheap dollar. It's economics. It's the continued down spiral of the U.S. dollar that is squeezing China's profits of goods they sell here forcing them to either take smaller margins or to raise the value of their currency against ours.

And so, the chickens are coming home to roost.

China has bankrolled George W. Bush's war adventures and are not happy with the ever falling dollar to pay back that debt.

China is more and more in the driver's seat with regards to U.S. economic and foreign policy.

One can not blame China for taking care of China and for playing this administration and our corporate heads for the greedy, near-sighted fools that they are. China's government is looking out for their interests. The same can not be said about our nation's leaders.

The U.S. is bleeding our capital resources to China for manufactured goods and to Middle Easter dictators for energy.

We are now down to a mere 10% of our own manufacturing of where we were just a decade ago.

We import more than half of all of our energy requirements.

Our nation is collapsing under debt and hemorrhaging two hundred years of capital accumulation away.

Our military is stretched beyond its ability. Our military hardware is wasted away.

The U.S. Dollar is no longer the currency of choice in the world.

New York is no longer the financial center of the world.

We have become a toothless, fat, spoiled, superstitious creature who is running out of money and still needs a fix for our many addictions. Our political leadership panders to our need to be consoled with platitudes that we are "the greatest" people on earth.

The future is not bright. The state of the nation is worse than it has been since the Civil War.

This country needs new leadership.
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. Here is the anthem for the state of our nation
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Angela Shelley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Sad, but true
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Great Clip....thankx
Even the Pubs are slowly changing their tune...they too see the scam....only the upper Pubs get the loot while the rest of us suffer a weakened dollar under the GOP/Bush....

We can fix it with a fucking LANDSLIDE in 08 to bury THE GOP no End...

Either we do it or we suffer another 8 years under GOP Losership....
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. Powerful lyrics and video.
Thanks for sharing it here. I will pass this along.
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Angela Shelley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for the "clear description"
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Deleted by user -- replied to wrong thread.
Edited on Thu Nov-29-07 02:11 PM by driver8
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. k+r
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
34. Thanks.
Appreciated.
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. Great post -- recommended!
Do you mind if I post this on my veterans' board? There are a couple of freepers who need to see this.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. By all means.
Possibly more than any Americans, our veterans are the most betrayed.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
7. The global fascists set it up this way for over 3 decades. Ever read the BCCI report
Edited on Thu Nov-29-07 02:17 PM by blm
or its list of outstanding matters? Oil countries and Chinese industry and banking markets figure in greatly as key matters - Jackson Stephens and Poppy Bush and his cronies were making deals that would ONLY benefit companies like WalMart, Chinese industrialists, and their corporate defense industry and energy cronies, aswell as global terror networks being funded by drugs and armsdealing.



Read the outstanding matters in the Dec 1992 BCCI report that was handed to both administrations.

Dubai Dollars started BCCI and the coverups will continue for decades as the powerful in our country have chosen to protect the secrecy and privilege of the Bushes and their cronies.

The BEST chance this nation had of preventing Bush2, 9-11, this Iraq war, future war with Iran, and today's chaos in Pakistan was by following up on the outstanding matters listed in that Dec 1992 BCCI report.

BushInc was at its weakest point and at its most exposed when this report came out - how did they end up becoming stronger throughout the 90s along with the global terror networks they had been protecting and funding?

People need to start keying on China, Pakistan, BCCI and the network of Poppy's industrialist friends and financiers who profited from the continuing secrecy and privilege that was protected for so long.

OPEN THE BOOKS ON BCCI - that is our best bet to change course and SAVE THIS COUNTRY.

Matters For Further Investigation

There have been a number of matters which the Subcommittee has received some information on, but has not been able to investigate adequately, due such factors as lack of resources, lack of time, documents being withheld by foreign governments, and limited evidentiary sources or witnesses. Some of the main areas which deserve further investigation include:

1. The extent of BCCI's involvement in Pakistan's nuclear program. As set forth in the chapter on BCCI in foreign countries, there is good reason to conclude that BCCI did finance Pakistan's nuclear program through the BCCI Foundation in Pakistan, as well as through BCCI-Canada in the Parvez case. However, details on BCCI's involvement remain unavailable. Further investigation is needed to understand the extent to which BCCI and Pakistan were able to evade U.S. and international nuclear non-proliferation regimes to acquire nuclear technologies.

2. BCCI's manipulation of commodities and securities markets in Europe and Canada. The Subcommittee has received information that remains not fully substantiated that BCCI defrauded investors, as well as some major U.S. and European financial firms, through manipulating commodities and securities markets, especially in Canada, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg. This alleged fraud requires further investigation in those countries.

3. BCCI's activities in India, including its relationship with the business empire of the Hinduja family. The Subcommittee has not had access to BCCI records regarding India. The substantial lending by BCCI to the Indian industrialist family, the Hindujas, reported in press accounts, deserves further scrutiny, as do the press reports concerning alleged kick-backs and bribes to Indian officials.

4. BCCI's relationships with convicted Iraqi arms dealer Sarkis Soghanalian, Syrian drug trafficker, terrorist, and arms trafficker Monzer Al-Kassar, and other major arms dealers. Sarkenalian was a principal seller of arms to Iraq. Monzer Al-Kassar has been implicated in terrorist bombings in connection with terrorist organizations such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Other arms dealers, including some who provided machine guns and trained Medellin cartel death squads, also used BCCI. Tracing their assets through the bank would likely lead to important information concerning international terrorist and arms trafficker networks.

5. The use of BCCI by central figures in arms sales to Iran during the 1980's. The late Cyrus Hashemi, a key figure in allegations concerning an alleged deal involving the return of U.S. hostages from Iran in 1980, banked at BCCI London. His records have been withheld from disclosure to the Subcommittee by a British judge. Their release might aid in reaching judgments concerning Hashemi's activities in 1980, with the CIA under President Carter and allegedly with William Casey.

6. BCCI's activities with the Central Bank of Syria and with the Foreign Trade Mission of the Soviet Union in London. BCCI was used by both the Syrian and Soviet governments in the period in which each was involved in supporting activities hostile to the United States. Obtaining the records of those financial transactions would be critical to understanding what the Soviet Union under Brezhnev, Chernenko, and Andropov was doing in the West; and might document the nature and extent of Syria's support for international terrorism.

7. BCCI's involvement with foreign intelligence agencies. A British source has told the Bank of England and British investigators that BCCI was used by numerous foreign intelligence agencies in the United Kingdom. The British intelligence service, the MI-5, has sealed documents from BCCI's records in the UK which could shed light on this allegation.

8. The financial dealings of BCCI directors with Charles Keating and several Keating affiliates and front-companies, including the possibility that BCCI related entities may have laundered funds for Keating to move them outside the United States. The Subcommittee found numerous connections among Keating and BCCI-related persons and entities, such as BCCI director Alfred Hartman; CenTrust chief David Paul and CenTrust itself; Capcom front-man Lawrence Romrell; BCCI shipping affiliate, the Gokal group and the Gokal family; and possibly Ghaith Pharaon. The ties between BCCI and Keating's financial empire require further investigation.

9. BCCI's financing of commodities and other business dealings of international criminal financier Marc Rich. Marc Rich remains the most important figure in the international commodities markets, and remains a fugitive from the United States following his indictment on securities fraud. BCCI lending to Rich in the 1980's amounted to tens of millions of dollars. Moreover, Rich's commodities firms were used by BCCI in connection with BCCI's involving in U.S. guarantee programs through the Department of Agriculture. The nature and extent of Rich's relationship with BCCI requires further investigation.

10. The nature, extent and meaning of the ownership of shares of other U.S. financial institutions by Middle Eastern political figures. Political figures and members of the ruling family of various Middle Eastern countries have very substantial investments in the United States, in some cases, owning substantial shares of major U.S. banks. Given BCCI's routine use of nominees from the Middle East, and the pervasive practice of using nominees within the Middle East, further investigation may be warranted of Middle Eastern ownership of domestic U.S. financial institutions.

11. The nature, extent, and meaning of real estate and financial investments in the United States by major shareholders of BCCI. BCCI's shareholders and front-men have made substantial investments in real estate throughout the United States, owning major office buildings in such key cities as New York and Washington, D.C. Given BCCI's pervasiveness criminality, and the role of these shareholders and front-men in the BCCI affair, a complete review of their holdings in the United States is warranted.

12. BCCI's collusion in Savings & Loan fraud in the U.S. The Subcommittee found ties between BCCI and two failed Savings and Loan institutions, CenTrust, which BCCI came to have a controlling interest in, and Caprock Savings and Loan in Texas, and as noted above, the involvement of BCCI figures with Charles Keating and his business empire. In each case, BCCI's involvement cost the U. S. taxpayers money. A comprehensive review of BCCI's account holders in the U.S. and globally might well reveal additional such cases. In addition, the issue of whether David Paul and CenTrust's political relationships were used by Paul on behalf of BCCI merits further investigation.

13. The sale of BCCI affiliate Banque de Commerce et de Placements (BCP) in Geneva, to the Cukorova Group of Turkey, which owned an entity involved in the BNL Iraqi arms sales, among others. Given BNL's links to BCCI, and Cukorova Groups' involvement through its subsidiary, Entrade, with BNL in the sales to Iraq, the swift sale of BCP to Cukorova just weeks after BCCI's closure -- prior to due diligence being conducted -- raises questions as to whether a prior relationship existed between BCCI and Cukorova, and Cukorova's intentions in making the purchase. Within the past year, Cukorova also applied to purchase a New York bank. Cukorova's actions pertaining to BCP require further investigation in Switzerland by Swiss authorities, and by the Federal Reserve New York.

14. BCCI's role in China. As noted in the chapter on BCCI's activities in foreign countries, BCCI had extensive activity in China, and the Chinese government allegedly lost $500 million when BCCI closed, mostly from government accounts. While there have been allegations that bribes and pay-offs were involved, these allegations require further investigation and detail to determine what actually happened, and who was involved.

15. The relationship between Capcom and BCCI, between Capcom and the intelligence community, and between Capcom's shareholders and U.S. telecommunications industry figures. The Subcommittee was able to interview people and review documents concerning Capcom that no other investigators had to date interviewed or reviewed. Much more needs to be done to understand what Capcom was doing in the United States, the United Kingdom, Egypt, Oman, and the Middle East, including whether the firm was, as has been alleged but not proven, used by the intelligence community to move funds for intelligence operations; and whether any person involved with Capcom was seeking secretly to acquire interests in the U.S. telecommunications industry.

16. The relationship of important BCCI figures and important intelligence figures to the collapse of the Hong Kong Deposit and Guaranty Bank and Tetra Finance (HK) in 1983. The circumstances surrounding the collpase of these two Hong Kong banks; the Hong Kong banks' practices of using nominees, front-companies, and back-to-back financial transactions; the Hong Banks' directors having included several important BCCI figures, including Ghanim Al Mazrui, and a close associate of then CIA director William Casey; all raise the question of whether there was a relationship between these two institutions and BCCI-Hong Kong, and whether the two Hong Kong institutions were used for domestic or foreign intelligence operations.

17. BCCI's activities in Atlanta and its acquisition of the National Bank of Georgia through First American. Although the Justice Department indictments of Clark Clifford and Robert Altman cover portions of how BCCI acquired National Bank of Georgia, other important allegations regarding the possible involvement of political figures in Georgia in BCCI's activities there remain outside the indictment. These allegations, as well as the underlying facts regarding BCCI's activities in Georgia, require further investigation.

18. The relationship between BCCI and the Banca Nazionale del Lavoro. BCCI and the Atlanta Branch of BNL had an extensive relationship in the United States, with the Atlanta Branch of BNL having a substantial number of accounts in BCCI's Miami offices. BNL was, according to federal indictments, a significant financial conduit for weapons to Iraq. BCCI also made loans to Iraq, although of a substantially smaller nature. Given the criminality of both institutions, and their interlocking activities, further investigation of the relationship could produce further understanding of Saddam Hussein's international network for acquiring weapons, and how Iraq evaded governmental restrictions on such weapons acquisitions.

19. The alleged relationship between the late CIA director William Casey and BCCI. As set forth in the chapter on intelligence, numerous trails lead from BCCI to Casey, and from Casey to BCCI, and the investigation has been unable to follow any of them to the end to determine whether there was indeed a relationship, and if there was, its nature and extent. If any such relationship existed, it could have a significant impact on the findings and conclusions concerning the CIA and BCCI's role in U.S. foreign policy and intelligence operations during the Casey era. The investigation's work detailing the ties of BCCI to the intelligence community generally also remains far from complete, and much about these ties remains obscure and in need of further investigation.

20. Money laundering by other major international banks. Numerous BCCI officials told the Subcommittee that BCCI's money laundering was no different from activities they observed at other international banks, and provided the names of a number of prominent U.S. and European banks which they alleged engaged in money laundering. There is no question that BCCI's laundering of drug money, while pervading the institution, constituted a small component of the total money laundering taking place in international banking. Further investigation to determine which international banks are soliciting and handling drug money should be undertaken.

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sistagoldilocks42 Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. SO TRUE IN A NUTSHELL
Recommend.

Let us put the traitorous congress on notice. Stop being an enabler.

IMAGINE GLOBAL PEACE

OUR CHILDREN AND ANCESTORS DEMAND IT

BURY THE WAR PROFITEERING FAMILIES AND BEGIN WITH THE BUSHITAS, CHAIN-KNEE,PELOSI, REID AND ALL THE FAT CATS.

LOVE AND "LIGHT"
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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. I can't decide...
...if our nation needs a revolution or an enema.
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. First the enema!!
There seems to be a lot of shit that needs to be flushed out...
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
11. we must get our country back from these thugs.
very true clip.
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Jimmygnole Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Let's promote change
Here's a good t-shirt, "anyone else in 08" Get it here:

http://www.zazzle.com/jimmygnole
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. welcome to DU!!!
Jimmygnole.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Welcome to the DU.
:hi:
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
15. Maufacturing is dead everywhere else
Edited on Thu Nov-29-07 02:33 PM by lamprey
It's a done deal. It's not a question of labor costs, it's where the newest, most efficient capital equipment is located and that's China. Yes, a cheap and pliant workforce attracted that investment in the first place, but once it was underway the momentum was unstoppable. 10% to 1% is a small fraction of the dislocation in the past. Manufacturing is over.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. It's not over and never will be.
Many here at the DU know that I own two manufacturing companies here in the U.S. I also trade (export and import) with not just China, but with countries all over the world. I have spent nearly two years living in Asia since 1985 when China's first "enterprise zones" were opened. I am very qualified to speak on this issue.

Your point about capital equipment is a good one. Indeed, none other than former Governor Jerry Brown long ago proposed that American companies be allowed to write off 100% (full depreciation) of any capital equipment they purchased on the following conditions: 1.) the capital equipment was made in the U.S.; and 2.) that the capital equipment would remain in that company for a minimum of 5 years (so it couldn't be shipped overseas).

There are a lot of progressive, tangible ways to keep the U.S. competitive in world markets with, yes manufactured goods. No country on earth has higher paid workers, better employee benefits and organized unions than does Germany. And yet they continue to outshine and dumbfound the world with the quality of their manufactured goods along with enviable profits, too.

Labor at 23 cents per hour and greed by corporate execs -- who buy politicians as cheaply as jelly beans -- are a component in the pissing away of our manufacturing know how, our tooling to manufacture, but the national policies that Ronald Reagan began and continued through the Bush and Clinton years were the greatest betrayal of our people.

Worse, cronyism -- always a cancer on capitalism -- is now state of the art and the enemy of American entrepreneurs and American ingenuity. The National Chamber of Commerce is the enemy of small business people who are holding on to their lives by a thread.

Germany has a federal approach to energy independence that is also the envy of the world. But it took national leadership looking out for the German people.

Germany has never been a sucker for the siren song of "free trade" if it means "unfair competition" to their industries.

Manufacturing is not dead in the U.S., lamprey, but it is on a death watch. Still, there is so much that can be done to revitalize American industry from rail transportation to generating alternative, clean energy that will stop the outflow of U.S. capital, that will employ our people -- skilled, semi-skilled and non-skilled -- and to raise, yes raise the standard of living once again of all Americans.

It will take bold national leadership and investment at the federal level (just as our competitors in the world markets do).

The near trillion dollars pissed away in Iraq would have made good start to that end.
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Thank you for your informative post.
No, I had no idea that you owned two manufacturing companies. Tax incentives, nvestmen and bold leadership- yes. What disturbs me is we how have run down our infrastructure for 30 years. There sub par education, the cost of health care: all rectifiable in the long term with all the uncertainties that brings. Apologies for being over the top. Leadership starts with the businesses making a go of it: Thank you, and forgive the ponderous tone. Law school (long abandoned)wrecked my writing ;)
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #27
35. We are really in a hole.
Thanks back to you, lamprey.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
16. We (the people) are responsible for them (Cheney/Smirk) and we deserve what we get.
Edited on Thu Nov-29-07 02:42 PM by TahitiNut
We spout empty homilies about being the "land of the free" and the "home of the brave" but we're a nation of cowards and outlaws as long as we invade and occupy nations based on lies and greed, we torture and imprison people without habeas corpus despite 1,000 years of "law," and we traffic in human labor and profiteer in human suffering and death.

We imprison more of our own citizens than any other nation on earth.
We deny health care to more of our own people than any other "developed nation."
We are among the most oppressive governments on earth in imposing the death penalty.
We have a larger and growing gap between the rich and the poor than any "first world" nation.
We've reduced organized labor to less than half it was a mere decade or two ago.

... and we sneer and demean the political leaders who'd stand up to such oppression.

We deserve it. We brought it on ourselves.
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Angela Shelley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I´m with you TahitiNut
with the courage to see clearly.
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TBUSA Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. No not We. The Republican party abdicated their responsibilities.
They allowed an assault on our manufacturing base by bowing to corporate cheap labor
demands. The Republican party allowed the decline of the middle class by supporting the transfer-of-wealth tactics of cheap credit. The Republican party endorses Party over Country for personal enrichment. They are in opposition to the principles of our country. Please do not include Americans in your discussions of U.S. failings.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Oh? And how many of "us" have shed blood in the streets to take back our government?
Edited on Thu Nov-29-07 04:12 PM by TahitiNut
After all, our nation is committing homicide and torture IN OUR NAME and our children in the military are dying almost daily in a criminal occupation of other nations. What have WE done????

Sitting back and pointing the warm and comfortable finger of blame just doesn't hack it. Taking 'compensation' for working for those coorporattions and paying taxes to support a global war machine just doesn't hack it. Playing 'protestor' by sending email and taking a walk in the streets (with a PERMIT, of course) in the sunshine with others on a day that's convenient just doesn't hack it.

As long as there's MORE "we" can do ... and we haven't done it ... we're responsible. ALL of us. That's the "social contract" of a democracy.


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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
37. Exactly - we have become just voters to be manipulated, not citizens respected
with the truth.

Until we have open government that is accountable to its citizens and respected with the truth we will remain just 'voters' to be manipulated.

We are told every election year that we do not WANT someone who respects us with the truth or speaks to us intelligently about solution-oriented policies that need OUR responsible attention. No - we are told that He/She has the powerful 'machine' that can win. He/She is the person we all want to have a beer with and guess what? He/She prays, too.

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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. All true.
How we went from FDR to Ronald Reagan and then on to Bush is not a good tale. Personally, I think so much pivoted on JFK's brief administration and then his murder. The undoing of The New Deal seemed to really get into full gear after 1963.

TahitiNut, I hope you are taking care of yourself and following your doc's orders and taking your medications for your heart and health. You are one of the delights here at the DU.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
22. Bravo
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
23. Hmmph. You sound like a Ron Paul supporter.
All this doom and gloom.

Don't you know that America's specialness comes from utter denial and our need to have leaders willing to lie to us and tell us everythings A-Okay?

Honesty is too much for us to handle, after all. We are just children.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Not a Ron Paul supporter at all.
Paul's Ayn Rand view of the world and economics are shallow and reactionary. He holds no solution for America at all.

FDR pushed the country in the right direction.

It is gloomy and the first part of the cure is to recognize the problems.

See my post #19. I have great faith in our country and our people and there is so much that can be done that it is simply frustrating watching the demise continue.

It requires national leadership that respects and values our people.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. We're still moving in the direction FDR pushed us in.
Edited on Thu Nov-29-07 04:32 PM by txaslftist
I don't understand why you are complaining, then. FDR was all for getting out into the world and "leading" it with guns and bombs. What do you think our embargo of Japan was, if not an aggressive act of war designed to goad them into kicking off the real thing? If FDR can tell a farmer that he can't have a vegetable garden, I don't see why you are complaining when the government sells our industry off to the Chinese in a deliberate series of wrecking ball trade agreements.

FDR was a big believer in the wisdom and power of government to make things better for everyone. He set in motion an increase in government power that would have made Alexander Hamilton proud. This despite the fact that he had two very good examples of nations where that kind of power had been turned to evil purposes and turned against citizens.

So if you like FDR, you ought to be a fan of leviathan (how's that for an Ayn Rand reference?); since he was it's champion. If you don't like the things that a gigantic government requires, like a surrender of your freedom and property rights, you shouldn't ought to be a big fan of gigantic government at all.

That's the great fallacy of this concept. "I have great faith in our country and our people..."

Really? Do you really?

Because it seems like if you did, you'd have faith in our ability to take care of ourselves without a gigantic bureacracy in DC telling us how to live and taxing us at 40% of our incomes.

Here's a secret for you. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The solution for little guys like us (I assume you are a little guy like me) is take as much power from our "leaders"(masters, bosses, chiefs, whatever term you like) as we possibly can. This seems a healthier solution than just praying that we'll get new or better masters.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. No we have moved away from the New Deal. There's a healthy role for government.
I am not in favor of no government. That is classic libertarianism and anarchism.

Idealism -- whether from the right or left, whether it comes from Ayn Rand or of Peter Kropotkin on the other side -- is not practical on our small little globe with the population growing as it is. There are serious survival issues such as feeding, housing and clothing that population that simply merit government of some form.

Perhaps there was a time long before the population exploded and the planet began to overheat when I would have been a classic anarchist myself, maybe not like sweet Sasha AKA Alexander Berkman who pissed away a great part of his life sadly in a prison for a foolish act, but perhaps more like Emma his one time paramour, but that, in my cynical old eyes is no longer possible.

The key here is progressive taxation, healthy estate taxes and, yes, a partial, but necessary redistribution of the wealth. That requires government.

Believe it or not, there is a middle ground between corporate domination of government or fascism and governmental domination of all enterprise or Stalinism. It is rooted in democratic liberalism as initiated under Roosevelt.

The task of good government is to defend the weak and yet, to still challenge the strong.

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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. I don't think that is government's task.
The task of government is to ensure our liberty, period.

It is not to make us rich, or poor, or equal or unequal. That is OUR task. Corporations are government creations; their misbehavior is indeed a government concern, because it is government that grants them their existence and their stockholders immunity from their crimes. I have no problem with a government willing to crush the life out of corporations who behave badly.

As for wealth redistribution, if you concede the government has the right to do such a thing, you concede the government the right to confiscate your property, too. After all, aren't you wealthier than someone?

As for me, I don't concede that the government (and most particularly the federal government) has ANY rights over me or my property, except to ensure that I don't violate your rights or property, and exact a REASONABLE sum to pay for doing so. Neither 15% nor 40% of my income is reasonable. Make federal taxation more like 6% and we're talking sense, rather than confiscatory nonsense.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. And one more point.
You've indicated that a "necessary redistribution of wealth" is part of the role of government. Well, for the past 20 years or so, the people in charge of the government decided that through regressive taxation (particularly the tax breaks on investments and various loopholes for the rich) that wealth redistribution from the working poor, the middle class and the very poor to line the pockets of the "investor class" was "necessary" ala trickle down theory.

Who are you to complain?
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Well, here we agree.
Your original reply bedeviled big government and you equated that with FDR and I took it that you opposed big government. You later posts suggests that you are against the massive realignment of wealth by Republican administrations. In the first argument, I agree with you in that I am not a "statist" (I used the word stalinist earlier), but that I believe that government is necessary for the reasons I gave. The second argument is that government in recent years has used its power to unfairly give the richest citizens unfair "loopholes" and "tax breaks". This is true. And again we agree.

We have had "socialism in reverse" since Reagan took office in 1981. Check out how much investment or capital income was taxed after the New Deal or even under JFK. The unwinding of FDR's democratic liberalism has resulted in, as you point out correctly, another form of wealth redistribution which will eventually lead to social upheaval if it is not corrected.

None other than Abraham Lincoln said that labor and capital should be equally respected. A person who works under a hot car as a mechanic or who flips burgers in a hot kitchen should not have their income taxed higher than someone who spends every day on his sailboat and who earns his income from dividends or rents and royalties.

The recent raid on the Social Security surplus that Al Gore wanted to use to pay down the U.S. debt, secure the program and to keep the rest for "a rainy day" in a "lock box" was ridiculed by Wall Street and the GOP. Bush's tax "reform" took that surplus and gave nearly 40% of it to the top 1% in tax cuts...the most privileged folks in our country, most of whom do not contribute to the Social Security program because they do not get a "paycheck" where FICA deductions are "withheld". Those with independent means make their tax contributions once a year, or at the most quarterly (another unfair advantage). It really wasn't their "surplus" to begin with; it belonged to the working class.

I am with you on closing the loopholes and share your cynicism with regards to the snake-oil "trickle down" theory.

In your other post, you said you understand that a "reasonable" amount of taxes should be collected. Therein really lies they only distinction between where you stand and where I stand: the definition of "reasonable".

Here's a link to a helpful chart regarding the current distribution of income. This is why I stated that wealth will have to be redistributed through progressive taxation and estate taxing much along the original lines as it was done in the New Deal. If not, social upheaval and crime will understandably increase. No one can maintain an island of prosperity within a sea of destitution.

http://www.lcurve.org/
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. I think our differences are a little more fundamental.
You see the vast unfairness built into the economic/governmental structure we presently have, let's call it the "car".

Right now, and for the past two decades or more, the car has been driven by the ultra rich, in a direction that hurts the middle class and the poor. The savage results of that bad driving have been coming home to roost in the plummeting dollar, the interest rate investor bail out by the fed, the destruction of our wealth and the reducing of the middle class to the greatest debtor class our world has ever known. You say give the keys to the car to better -democratic, progressive- drivers.

I say let's take the car out and toss it in a ditch and get a bicycle. Either that or a little bitty car that is so weak and powerless it can't drive us all off a cliff. Because when the car is as big and powerful as our car is, you can't trust ANYONE with the damn keys.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
47. Not at all. Post WW2 we moved in the direction BushInc has pointed this nation.
Global fascism.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. We'd ALL rather live in Disney World than in the back alleys of Orlando.
We all prefer Disneyland to the mean streets of Anaheim. It's easier to believe the fantasy (while others die) than do the working, suffering, and dying. Yet.

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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Well, there's a hell of a lot of painful truth out there.
The CIA peddling crack, the torture and rape of kids by the US military and our surrogates, the extraordinary renditions, the revitalization of the heroin trade, the rape of our constitution...

It's a hell of a lot to take in. Put me back on the damn Dumbo ride. I don't like Orlando's mean streets, nor Anaheim's back alleys.

I'd rather believe that an aspirin like electing Hillary can cure my cancer than think about chemotherapy.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #30
46. Good analogy. Me - I want the books opened so American citizens can do
their job as responsible citizens assessing the FACTS, not the spin from those who continually protect secrecy and privilege of the powerful who have dragged our country into these hellacious messes we are in.

No more coverups.


http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html


This nation CANNOT afford it.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
31. praise jeebiz
and vote republcn and it will be okay honey.
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Diamond Dave Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
36. I've always heard China operates on a 1000 year plan, steadily moving
forward, ever so slowly, the turtle in the race. We in the US, very short-sighted, "end of the quarter" mentality. I don't know, just repeating from numerous articles and history books.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. "End of the Quarter"
We can thank Wharton Business School for graduating these traitors that have sold us out, who grab the levers of industry and spin off the assets to keep the privileged few in "the board room" in the pink while the company's tank.

You got it right, Diamond Dave. End of the quarter culture indeed.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
38. You're a Damned Troublemaker ...
... hope your jail cell is near enough to mine for us to swap stories.

:rofl:

Thanks for encapsulating a complex issue so nicely.

- Dave
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. You guys think they'll go for co-ed jails?
Not that you two would mind.........

;)))
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
45. I'm giving him a cupie doll He gets it
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
48. That about covers it.....if I wasn't tired I might add a few more things...
but then...some of us know the worse of it..so why add it. What you say is enough...for a big start of what's wrong.
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
49. I cannot help but read this and think of NAFTA
And think of Bill Clinton and think of where America was sold down the river. Good luck with the fantasy of Hillary. Her masters are not the people of this country. I knew that was the beginning end of America by being the end of the working class (you know because I was one waiting for the bus that dark night when I read Clinton had passed Nafta and I have never forgiven or forgot that) and nothing has ever convinced me it wasn't. I don't trust the name Clinton and I never will.

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