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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:20 AM
Original message
The Iranian WMD Lies
Patrick Buchanan was on the Morning Joe program on MSNBC discussing the NIE on Iran. He called President Bush’s attempt to convince the country that he had just found out that Iran has had no nuclear weapons program for at least four years dishonest; noted that some members of Congress had advocated a war with Iran; said that the administration’s case should be viewed in the context of the Downing Street Memo’s statement about "fixing intelligence"; reminded us that people were saying the US needed to target Iranian sites with US nuclear weapons; and suggested that the Senate needs to subpoena Rice, Hadley, and Bush.

Wouldn’t it be great if all of the democratic candidates for the presidency were at least as bold a voice for a sane Iranian policy as Patrick Buchanan? And wouldn’t it be encouraging if they all were on the same page in calling for Congress to confront and hold the administration responsible for lying to our nation in order to start a war of occupation in Iraq, and telling the same lies about Iran?

Valerie Plame had been the supervisor of the CIA analysis of Iraqi and Iranian WMD programs. The timing of the intelligence, which indicated that Iran had ceased to have nuclear weapons programs by the time that the Office of Dick Cheney exposed Plame, is not a coincidence. Since the summer of 2004, a group of DUers on the "Plame Threads" have been saying exactly that.

More, the same group of DUers have called the Plame scandal, the Niger forgeries, and the neocon/AIPAC espionage scandal three leaves on a clover. The neocon/AIPAC scandal involved the Office of Special Plans using an intelligence cell from AIPAC to pass highly classified military secrets about Iran to intelligence officers of a third country.

Last month, the federal judge hearing the case against the two AIPAC members who were involved in the espionage ruled that they could subpoena administration officials including Condi Rice, Steve Hadley, and Elliot Abrams. It is no coincidence that almost every one of the officials involved in the neocon/AIPAC espionage scandal were also involved in the Plame scandal.

In the summer of 2004, Patrick Buchanan had called for the Justice Department to have Patrick Fitzgerald to expand the Plame investigation to include the neocon/AIPAC espionage scandal. Again, the DUers on the Plame Threads had noted early on that the Plame scandal involved espionage.

If people from a conservative right-winger like Patrick Buchanan to progressive democrats like the DU Plame Thread participants can see that the same group of agenda-driven liars in the Bush administration have hi-jacked American foreign policy, why isn’t Congress confronting them, and holding them responsible for their crimes? Buchanan said that some of the democrats in Congress are enablers. It's hard to argue with that.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. Sigh. Why hasn't Congress done a lot of things within their power to do?
Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 07:26 AM by babylonsister
Perhaps this will be the proverbial straw, but I can't hold my breath any longer for that.

Good morning, H2O Man! :hi:

And PS, it's pretty scary when we agree with Buchanan!
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. no, its scarier when buchanan has more balls to point out the truth
than our own dem leadership.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. In my opinion,
it comes down to who believes in the rule of law, and who doesn't. A wide range of people across the nation believe in the rule of law, and honor the supreme law of the land -- the Constitution of the United States. This includes democrats and republicans. A smaller group of people that huddle in Washington DC do not believe in the rule of law, and they ignore the Constitution. They, too, are found in both parties, and are in the executive and legislative branches of the government.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. They not only ignore the Constitution, they seem to deplore it...
and all it stands for.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. agreed, except
the current administration believes in the rule of ITS OWN laws, signing statements, retroactive absolution and reframing of torture as non-torture, by corruption of laws and those who write and interpret those laws.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
44. Complicity to manufacture war.
Great read H2O Man. Thank you.

K & R
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
24. Buchanan may be a right wing wack job, but he has never been short on balls and every once in a
while he actually gets it right.

I have always found his candor, although sometimes very mis-directed, refreshing.
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nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #24
70. He usually gets it right on foreign policy
It's just domestic policy that he's very, very wrong on. Wasn't it Buchanan who wrote a book called "A Republlic, Not An Empire"?
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
3. Pat's comments on this CF have shocked me
He is not mincing words. This administration is in deeper trouble than many people realize. They may attempt something really stupid and get caught this time.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
4. Did Buchanan actually say "Downing Street Memos"?
I didn't think Republicans ever uttered those words.

I wish Walter Cronkite would hold a press conference - I wish ANYONE with authentic credibility (and no purported hidden agenda) would do so - to pull the curtain back from the lie that is the B*sh Administration.

As always, many thanks for your contributions, H20Man!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yes, he did.
I thought it was curious to hear Patrick Buchanan talking about the Downing Street Memo(s), and the guys from Morning Joe agreeing with him.
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deminks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Yes, he said Downing Street Memo, he said "fixing the intelligence",
and he said "cherry picking the intelligence". He HAS been listening. Pat also moves with the wind. He is just as likely to praise the decider guy tomorrow for finding the correct spin on this thing. IMHO.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. While he has
an multitude of faults, Pat has been solid on the Iranian issue for years. He has also been on target about Iraq, although I disagree with his beliefs about the best alternatives for dealing with the mess the administration has created.
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. It's been long enough
Besides, other than among those of us on the left, the words "Downing Street memos" really don't ring a bell too much.
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
52. HaHaHaHa......
That is the best picture I have seen of bush and dick, yet!

Can we impeach now!
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. There is a post from earlier with several paragraphs from ol' Walter.
Quite entertaining reading and he didn't mince any words either. He sounded PISSED.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
13. The whole big smelly bucket of offal needs to be dumped on the deck
so it can be cleaned out.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
14. It's looking like bushco* may have jumped the shark on this one
I can hope and dream can't I

I've been saying for a while that we are only one incident away from being rid of this criminal cabal. America as a majority do not support the bush crew any longer so the pols can't use the excuse of oh but my constituents say. by by bushco* and good riddance, hope you all find here in a short while that you have a lot of time on your hands to give thought to what you all have done as a crew.
rec
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. I agree.
I think that both democrats and republicans should be outraged at the damage that the administration has done to destroy the good will that other nations had for the USA. I think it is worth looking at what position any of the candidates, from either party, has taken in regard to the administration's stance on Iran.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. yes it is time to get it right
not many more chances will we get. imo

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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. This is a perfect opportunity for one of the candidates to come...
forward and be a TRUE leader and speak the Truth - an in-your-face Truth that can't be ignored by the media. More and more people are listening, trying to see light at the end of the tunnel.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. It seems to me this should hurt Hilliary, but then again, judging from the media that I read, it
Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 08:41 AM by IsItJustMe
also seems like the fix is in. I guess we will see.

This may very well be a three day story and disappear. Attention span seems to be a problem in this country now-a-days.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
15. Excellent
Sometimes you have to give Buchanan his props and this is one of them. And yes, many Dems in Congress, including several candidates for president have been enablers... which is why I am so disheartened with my party!

K&R
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
16. I Almost Fell On The Floor When Pat Referenced The Downing Street Memo
Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 08:04 AM by Me.
Could it be all things will start coming to light, could the death of Dr. Kelley be seriously investigated. Will we ever find out what he said to one of the last people he spoke to, Judith Miller, who is also involved with the Plame matter, the AIPAC case and the Islamic charity case?

I wondered about the AIPAC case yesterday after the news broke, IIRC the info being handed over to the men who in turn passed it to the head of Mossad had to do with our policy on Iran, does it mean they got themselves in espionage hot water for nothing? I noted that Olmert and others were pulling out their hair yesterday regarding this matter. All that spying, duplicitousness has just blown up in their faces. And it also leaves them with few options. They were expecting us to do their dirty work for them. That's not going to happen now and if they forge ahead with their plans to bomb Iran they will be standing alone, with no allies. I don't see how we will be able to support them in any way given our dubious standing in the world now.

As for * and Cheney, I hope Whitehouse gets his Constitutionals amendment now.
p://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2397313
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. 11-8 transcript
from the AIPAC espionage case's most recent pre-trial hearing:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/jud/aipac/hr110807.pdf
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
17. Morning Joe is excellent today
This may be his best program to date.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
18. Ol' morning Joe is wondering how Bush suddenly became stupid.
He says that Bush used to be more intelligent than he is now. As if he just became stupid over night.

How does that work?

None of us ever had any difficulty recognizing that the guy is an idiot.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Joe is slow n/t
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #20
31. plus that voice of his drives me up a wall
as so does wolf blitzer
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
21. K&R
bu$h* and his criminals at large have no fear of impeachment, therefore they have no need for rule of law.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
23. This (what you asked) is what we must find out.
"If people from a conservative right-winger like Patrick Buchanan to progressive democrats like the DU Plame Thread participants can see that the same group of agenda-driven liars in the Bush administration have hi-jacked American foreign policy, why isn’t Congress confronting them, and holding them responsible for their crimes?"

In fact, I think it is imperative we know. Without knowing, the voters will still make mistakes in judgement or misplace thier trust. Without this infomation, it's harder to rectify what has been transpiring. Secrecy and "states secrets" for covering up things from the people must stop.
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
27. Doesn't it really blow your mind when
you find your self agreeing with Buchannan...Some times he does make statements that are not only factual but hit the nail on the head. It is also a shame that we have to hear this from a republican. Where are all the Democrats in the HOuse and Senate on this.

Bush and Cheney along with rove should be sitting their asses in a super security jail right now. You can not blame the MSM for what Bush and Cheney have done, but damn it, you can blame them for not telling the people in this country what has been done to this country.

Can you in your wildest dreams, imagine this, with the Democrats doing any of the things any single one of the things that bush had done. All and every democrat in this type of administration would be locked up and they would throw the keys in a furnace.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
28. How much more do they need?
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
30. Don't hold your breath. They could have done that already. They do not need Biden to stop
campaigning for that. They still could hold the hearings anyway.
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PRETZEL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
32. No offense to the Wilson's but we now truely see the real motive
behind Valerie Plame's outing. This NIE just seems to be more evidence that Valerie was the true target not just pure political vengence.

Imagine the scenario if Valerie and her group knew for sure (or at least had high confidence) in the fact that neither Iraq nor Iran currently possessed WMD's, had no advanced working programs, and were just basically bluffing to maintain their own power within their own respective countries?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. No Offense, But I Think It Was A Kill Two Birds With One Stone Move
They certainly wanted to make JW pay for daring to open a door on their lie and discourage others from doing the same. This is a truly vindictive bunch. At the same time, as H20Man pointed out, one of the contentions on the PLame threads was to stop her investigations, for a number of reasons.
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PRETZEL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. None taken by any means,
that's the beauty of DU. Differing opinions and differing viewpoints lead to great conversation.

I guess what my point was that in the scheme of things when Ambassador Wilson wrote his op-ed it would have been expected to be countered by the administration. That's fair. The fact that Ambassador Wilson did indeed expose the lie that was the Niger forgeries should have merited a response. Novak did that as did other RW mouthpieces. My point being that the claims and views of Ambassador Wilson could have been countered without outing his wife. There were enough political talking points out there (even if they went off topic) to give the RW talking heads. There was the political contributions and work done with Dem. campaigns that no matter how right the Ambassador was it would have been muffled by all the partisan rhetoric. That's what I seem to remember from Novak's original column. From my memory of his article, Valerie Plame's name and association with the CIA didn't really fit with the whole tone of Novak's piece. At least that seems to be my memory of it.

So then why did Novak go out of his way to out Valerie Plame?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. As I Said , It Was A One Two Punch
Novak's column was only one piece of the story. Earlier in the year Wilson went on MTP and began his counter offensive. It was in March that a work-up was ordered on Wilson, which eventually would lead to his wife. Don't forget how important selling the lie was to them, they had an entire group working out of the veep;s office, including Card, Rove, Matalin, Gingrich and others, to determine how best to sell the war and Cheney was determined not to let anyone or anything get in his way. Then Wilson came along with the objections and he was a guy who had creds which Cheney well knew as he was Sec. of Defense at the time Wilson, as ambassador to Iraq, did his famous standing up Saddam. Further many of those involved but especially Cheney, Rove and Libby are vindictive sob's and well known for payback.

There are too many layers in all the matters involved with this admin, but mostly Cheney. As H. pointed out upthread, many of us firmly believe that the Plame matter was only one third of a 3 leaf clover.
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PRETZEL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. I agree about everything you, H20 man, and those
much more learned about this have said. I don't know why I'm having the difficulty in understanding things today.

:shrug:
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
33. Recommended highly.
I do not have any answers. Maybe timidity. Maybe Congress knows that most Americans are engrossed in their own lives. Paying property taxes and bills, and being sick, and running businesses.

But this is perhaps the single most important post of any. The core, the heart of things. Very very serious.
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TNOE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
34. Has anybody else said - or thought
what I've been thinking? That the plan for those missing nukes (when was that - August?) was going to make this NIE report IRRELEVANT - and it would have never seen the light of day?
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Ahhh, another piece of the puzzle possibly explained. Thanks n/t
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. Interesting point.
Is there anything new on how that incident played out?
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rockybelt Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. YES!
I believe their original intentions on "accidentally" loading those nukes on that plane, after spending millions to retrofit that plane, was to get them over Iran and drop them.

Somebody spoiled that by leaking the information. Some think that high ranking Air Force officers leaked the info.

Seeing as how that didn't work out, lets "lose" one of the devices, as they are called, and just kind of bury that information.

Sometime close to the election there would be an "incident" that would provoke an attack on Iran because the administration would have the "proof" that Iran did it.

Maybe?
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TNOE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. I was thinking more like:
They were going to transport them to Iran (or very nearby) and then launch them from Iran (or say they were launched from Iran) to fall on an American city that they deemed expendable. That way - all crimes are washed away - forgotten - because we're back on "war footing" - and there is no time for "partisan fighting" over past mistakes (Iraq, Plame, Gonzo, etc., etc., etc). Right now - I figure the draft was supposed to be in full gear and America was supposed to be back in a panic, marshal law declared along with the other draconion measures signed off by Bush would be enacted, the elections would be halted - indefinitely, etc., etc.

Me thinks America was supposed to be in a complete panic and chaos would be ruling the day and then we'd all have to go back and say Bush is the greatest president in the world - or off to the detainment camps we'd go.

Some body (some great soul) deserves much more than a hero's medal. IMO.
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rockybelt Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. We're pretty close
in our thinking. Of course when the first nuke would hit, W declares an emergency and martial law.
Pretty thin stuff, huh?
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #34
46. And how many of those airmen are dead now?
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #46
59. last count was 3 or 4? nt
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #34
63. I'm also wondering about Israeli Strike on Syria that had so many conflicting reports...
Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 10:19 PM by KoKo01
Why did Syria not protest. Some folks say they bombed nothing...and empty field in photos ...others think it was more sinister. Yet, whatever happened was spun and spun and then hushed up.

Put that with the Nukes that flew over America...and you get some interesting thoughts.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
35. It's not just hard to argue with that. It'd be stupid to try to argue with that.
Because it's a fact.
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tex-wyo-dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
38. "why isn’t Congress confronting them...?"
Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 11:10 AM by tex-wyo-dem
That is the key question that needs to be answered. If a private citizen who investigates public information of the Plame scandal, the neocon/AIPAC scandal, the run-up to the Iraq war, the rhetoric and saber-rattling against Iran and connects these dots with the larger picture of the PNAC agenda can see what has happened, what laws have been blatantly broken, who is complicit and what motives are involved, certainly those Congressmen with access to vast amounts of confidential information can complete the discovery necessary to convict.

Why hasn't Congress confronted those within and without the administration on these most obvious examples of, at the very least, "high crimes and misdemeanors" and, at the most, outright treason? That is the real question.

Thank you, H2O Man, for all of your contributions and for shining a spotlight in many a dark corner! :thumbsup:
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rockybelt Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
42. When Pat Buchanan
talks like this, after all the years listening to him orate about the conservatives and their wonderfulness, it makes me sit up and say, "Whhhaaaaa?"
Did I just hear Buchanan say "Downing Street Memo" and "fixing intelligence" in the same sentence?
Oh Lord, take me I am ready!!!!

All kidding aside, when Pat Buchanan talks like this there is some serious shit about to happen. We can only hope that a lot of people wake up and have an epiphany if you will, about the lies that have been bestowed upon them by this evil administration. DUers get it. A lot of other people don't.
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
49. Some dems just want to trade places with the GOP. Money and influence.
AIPAC has them both, and we don't. We've got to get rid of legalized bribery if we expect anything different. K&R.

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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
50. Anybody besides me feel that a new 'surge' in "Iranian made" IED's is coming?
Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 02:27 PM by IDemo
They were really pushing this theme for several months, then the focus seemed to move to the threat of Iranian-made mushroom clouds. I expect to see a renewal of reports that IED's with "made in Iran" tags are being found in greater numbers..
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SalviaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
51. k&r
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Is anyone asking why Busholini, Darth & the Fascist Regime
have been lying for the past four years and pushing for an attack on Iran?

I wonder if the majority of the American people understand now that the
Pres. & VP are warmongering liars?
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seesdifferent Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
54. Was Bush not told in January, 2007?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
55. All the wheels are off the Bush Bus now.
The traitors have been exposed as liars, thieves, warmongers and traitors.

They needed war with Iran to avoid a serious investigation by the press, the Congress and We the People.

You've been up front and ready for a long time, H20 Man, along with a host of other DUers and people who give a damn.

We are entering a most perilous time. Either we see them get their due or Bush tries for World War III in another theater.

KRB.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. It would be
a serious error to think the dogs of war have been defanged. I agree 100% with you that "we are entering a most perilous time."
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. One thing's different, though...
Now we've got the guns on our side. By telling the Truth, the Pentagon and Old Boys served notice that they no longer will go along with Bush's lies.

That's why I'm starting to think Bush was trying to sneak those six B-52 nukes to an undisclosed location.

Hmm. That got leaked, too.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
56. Yup. I noted his appearance on CNN.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2404088&mesg_id=2404088

I don't get the Democrats.

I hate to say this BUT,...they seem either too anxious or too weak EVEN IN THE FACE OF AN ADMINISTRATION that has fully advantaged itself of AND SUCCEEDED TO INFLUENCE a divided/conflicted nation,...by appearing to be something it isn't.

TAKE A DAMN STAND or hand over power to the cannibals, for crying-out-loud.

The Democrats are losing ground because they are TOO DAMN ANXIOUS AND CAUTIOUS!!!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. I can remember
in January of 2007, when the democrats took over congress, that Mr. Buchanan said the party leadership would not have enough spine to seriously challenge the administration.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. It seems that "appearing weak" is more important than dealing with the Constitution.
Or, maybe it's that compromise that Rahm Emmanuel was going on about in his Presser yesterday. Compromise...working across the aisle...

Democrats are running as the "Unity Party" while they fail our Constitution and allow criminality on a scale unseen before. From Wall St. to Mainstreet, from wrecking the Constitution to Violating International Treaties...from graft to stealing and obstructing elections we have a Crime Wave RAMPANT in America that's probably worse than Al Capone or Tea Pot Dome or anything we've ever known in the huge scale of the operation.

But...Democrats must "reach across the aise" to unite the country.

Says to me...they are in on it. And, I don't say that lightly...but from watching them for a long time now. And I don't know how to deal with it. Faxes, Phones, E-mail? Organizing Precincts? Canvassing Voters? Working the phones at Dem Headquarters? Giving money (what little most of us can afford)?

So what is it that our Democrats just don't understand about the anger out here? Or, is it that "our anger" just doesn't come with the BIG BUCKS that LOBBYIST ANGER DOES. And, the rewards don't go into that back wallet or purse.. :-(
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teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
60. agreed
that there are some Democrats who are enablers 
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
61. When I see a post about Conyers like this....
it's discouraging. This is what our Dems are thinking. If we impeach Cheney we could get Giuliani...and that would give him a leg up in the '08 Election.

Here's what Conyers said to someone who posted on "Smirking Chimp."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2410769
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
65. All I can add is a K&R ...
... because, as always, you have said it all.

:applause:
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 05:08 AM
Response to Original message
66. This is as close to the TRUTH as I've read about our lack of leadership
Damn! K*R
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
67. What has Valerie Plame said?
I've seen a couple of interviews, but I haven't read her book. I think she said that Iran is still a threat, which is not consistent with the information we are getting now. AFAIK, she didn't elaborate.

--IMM
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. I would not
expect her to be able to elaborate, which is a shame. It would be good for the public to hear from someone like her, but it won't happen.
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German1972 Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
68. maybe this time the story will get attention in the US MSM
the world outside the US is already well informed, waiting for an reaction.

By the way check this article by Thomas L. Friedman in the International Herald Tribune

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/05/opinion/edfriedman.php

Intercepting Iran's take on America
By Thomas L. Friedman
Wednesday, December 5, 2007

There are two intelligence analyses that are relevant to the balance of power between the United States and Iran - one is the latest U.S. assessment of Iran, which certainly gave a much more complex view of what is happening there. The other is the Iranian National Intelligence Estimate of America, which - my guess - would read something like this:

To: President Ahmadinejad

From: The Iranian Ministry of Intelligence

Subject: America

As you'll recall, in the wake of 9/11, we were extremely concerned that the U.S. would develop a covert program to end its addiction to oil, which would be the greatest threat to Iranian national security. In fact, after Bush's 2006 State of the Union address, in which he decried America's oil addiction, we had "high confidence" that a comprehensive U.S. clean energy policy would emerge. We were wrong.

Our fears that the U.S. was engaged in a covert "Manhattan Project" to achieve energy independence have been "assuaged." America's Manhattan Project turns out to be largely confined to the production of corn ethanol in Iowa, which, our analysts have confirmed from cellphone intercepts between lobbyists and congressmen, is nothing more than a multibillion-dollar payoff to big Iowa farmers and agro-businesses.

True, thanks to Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the House of Representatives, the U.S. Congress decided to increase the miles per gallon required of U.S. car fleets by the year 2020 - which took us by surprise - but we nevertheless "strongly believe" this will not lead to any definitive breaking of America's oil addiction, since none of the leading presidential candidates has offered an energy policy that would include a tax on oil or carbon that could trigger a truly transformational shift in America away from fossil fuels.

Therefore, it is "very likely" that Iran's current level of high oil revenues will last for decades and insulate our regime from any decisive pressures from abroad or from our own people.

We have to note that obtaining open-source intelligence in America has become more difficult, because traditional news shows have become more comedic and more comedic news shows more authoritative.

For instance, CNN's nightly business report is hosted by a man named "Dobbs." Real journalists come on his show and present transparently propagandistic stories about immigration and trade and then he fulminates about them, much the way our ayatollahs used to do about "Satanic Americans" on late-night Iranian TV. So viewers have no real idea what's happening in the U.S. economy.

Meanwhile, at 11 p.m., something called "The Daily Show," which appears on Comedy Central, has fake journalists presenting what turns out to be the real news.

Yes, our last INIE in 1990 concluded that after the collapse of Communism, America was on track to become the world's sole superpower and most compelling role model for Muslim youth - including our own. We were wrong. We now have "high confidence" that America is on a path of self-destruction, for three reasons:

First, 9/11 has made America afraid and therefore stupid. The "war on terrorism" is now so deeply imbedded in America's psyche that we think it is "highly likely" that America will continue to export more fear than hope and will continue to defend things like torture and Guantánamo Bay prison and to favor politicians like Mr. Giuliani, who alienates the rest of the world.

Second, at a time when America's bridges, roads, airports and Internet bandwidth have fallen behind other industrial powers, including China, we believe that the U.S. opposition to higher taxes - and the fact that the primary campaigns have focused largely on gay marriage, flag-burning and whether the Christian Bible is the literal truth - means it is "highly unlikely" that America will arrest its decline.

Third, all the U.S. presidential candidates are distancing themselves from the core values that made America such a great power and so different from us - in particular America's long commitment to free trade, open immigration and a reverence for scientific enquiry wherever it leads. Our intel analysts are baffled that the leading Democrat, Mrs. Clinton, no longer believes in globalization and the leading Republican, Mr. Huckabee, never believed in evolution.

U.S. politicians seem determined to appeal either to the most nativist extremes in their respective parties - or to tell voters that something Americans call "the tooth fairy" will make their energy, budget, educational and Social Security deficits painlessly disappear.

Therefore, we conclude with "high confidence" that there is little likelihood that post-9/11 America will, as they say, "get its groove back" anytime soon.

Who needs nukes when you have this kind of America?

God is Great. Long Live the Iranian Revolution.
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