As a liberal, do you ever find yourself carrying water for the right wing?

[IsItJustMe]

I don't know if the label “Liberal” truly fits who I am. But I do know this, I am a fiercely independent thinker and the truth of a matter is all-important. Thus, I know damn well I could never be a conservative.

I have to admit though, that I often find myself being sucked in by the right wing spin machine that exists in this country.

The two most recent examples of this is my initial reactions with Ahmadinejad and Chavez. My initial reaction was one of ignorant blind hate until I sat down with myself and asked WHY?
When I sat down, in a calm manner, analyzed the facts, questioned where my attitudes came from, asked where the truth lied, I came away from it with quit a different perspective.

My initial reactions were based on media spin, culture, and conventional wisdom. Is it this hard for a person to get to the bottom of what they really think and how they really feel about a given matter? The only advice that I seem to come up with in this regard is to QUESTION EVERYTHING.

[sam sarrha]

1. you are born one or the other.. >Link>> a few are duped along the way, a few are converted but it is

not easy.. take Big Ed Schultz for example.. it wasn't an easy conversion to liberal for him. it took years and years, and only then thru tragedy in his family.. and i got to sat it isn't complete by any means ..he has a way to go yet

http://librocrat.blogspot.com/2007/10/conservatives-and-liberals-have.html

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=+Conservatives+brains+different&btnG=Search

[leftist_not_liberal]

25. BaLoNeY

n/t

[Javaman]

48. Razor sharp retort. nt

[Horse with no Name]

2. No.

Read other news sources. Not the milquetoast variety of spin here.
Ahmadinejad has very little power. His own people do not like him...in fact, if Bush would leave him alone, the Iranians will end up taking care of their own mess.
However, if Bush continues to ramp up the rhetoric, then they will have little choice but to support Ahmadinejad.

And regarding Chavez? Look what we have done to Castro.
Same thing.

[closeupready]

3. On some issues, yes. Like gun control issues.

Or issues relating to rights of fathers, because it seems as though that many people who consider themselves liberal, when they are faced with a legal dilemma regarding abortion, custody, child rearing, etc., they choose to support the solution which favors mothers over the solution which favors fathers.

[Echo In Light]

4. All by design! You've hit the nail on the head...

Three decades worth of pro-corporate "values," right-wing mainstream media that strategically labels itself "liberal" to better dissuade genuine liberal ideas and philosophies from gaining credence - or even basic acknowledgement of - within our brainwashed society. Everything here is bass-akwards; that's how the elites have controlled this country. Due to long, bitter struggles from the bottom-up, the powers that be slowly lost the ability to control people through force {police state}, so they learned {early 20th century} to control the masses by determining how and what people think i.e. the "manufacture of consent." America has one corporate political party with two right-wings, yet the average indoctrinated citizen firmly believes that one is light years apart from the other. This always leans to the right, favorably, and benefits the Few Big who run the show.

[IsItJustMe]

40. I have read your posts and appreciate your insight. I can tell you are deep thinker, as I have

become, once I learned that there were no wmd in Iraq.

We seem to take these issues and shoot from the hip, not really thinking about the merits of our mental positions or why we have them. We do not live in a vacuum.

Our own pride and arrogance will often get in the way of our truth seeking because of the rightness of our position.

[Echo In Light]

56. Sure...and people prefer to see themselves as being 'right,' yet most of our views stem....

From external sources, other people, etc. Within the context of this thread, I was merely pointing out how "political" views are very closely managed in the U.S. - often without people really having an understanding of how or why that is. From there, one can determine just how skewed the prevailing perceptions can be.

[slackmaster]

5. If I take a position that happens to coincide with someone else's, that's not "carrying water"

I don't subscribe to the idea of package deals. I choose my positions based on merit, Chinese restaurant style:

One from Column A, two from Column B, with five or more you get free egg roll. Mandatory 15% gratuity on parties of eight or more.

[EstimatedProphet]

6. Exactly

On DU there are too many people who think that someone is carrying water for the right wing, just because they don't agree.

[Echo In Light]

10. Because those who are the least afflicted can easily spot another view that...

is only widely adhered to because it stems from pro-corporate, right-wing thinking that is systematically transmitted to masses as "news" within our mainline media apparatus. It's like man-made weather, and is only there to entrench establishment friendly views, even if those views are indeed quite remote from actual reality.

[EstimatedProphet]

14. Yeah, that's exactly what it is

:eyes:

[Echo In Light]

18. Feel "free" to keep believing that it's all randomly occurring within a vacuum

Good luck with that...your corporate masters are counting on it ;)

[EstimatedProphet]

20. Woo-woo

Krg farzn zebl knockt! Nrfe! Uf! UF!

You're actually trying to argue that your viewpoint is the only one that's valid. Anyone who disagrees with you on any subject is a corporate stooge.

You funny funny guy!

[Echo In Light]

22. You're too ignorant to understand that it isn't a question of it being "my" view

[EstimatedProphet]

23. Rave on!

Just don't get too much foam on the carpet.

And by the way, you're too paranoid to understand that the OP was about whether having an idea that is similar to the rightwing constitutes actively working for the rightwing, which of course it doesn't. Reality is a spectrum. People have different views. They always have. They always will. And they are allowed to have them without it being a secret corporate conspiracy.

[slackmaster]

50. It always comes around to personal attacks with you people

And by "you people" I mean those who have allowed themselves to be guided by their vanity to the conclusion that they are among an enlightened elite who see the whole picture clearly while others remain in the dark.

Or maybe you are under the recent influence of a charismatic professor in an undergraduate introductory philosophy class.

[SyntaxError]

52. lol...

funny guy...

[PVnRT]

42. Let me fix your post

Because those who are the least afflicted can easily spot another view that is only widely adhered to because it stems from pro-corporate, right-wing thinking that is systematically transmitted to masses as "news" within our mainline media apparatus. It's like man-made weather, and is only there to entrench establishment friendly views, even if those views are indeed quite remote from actual reality. My view is the only correct one; all else is brainwashing.

[JVS]

12. Nice post, Hitler

;-)

[Echo In Light]

7. Of course there will be individual variances, but that doesn't nullify the overarching methods...

of thought control in open society. When the people have a voice in society - although they may not have a genuine hand in determining economic policies, as it is here in the U.S. - their voice will be managed as to keep a mjority on the same page as the elites who own it.

[slackmaster]

13. It sounds like you are saying that anyone who disagrees with you is a victim of thought control

:D

[EstimatedProphet]

15. It really does sound like that, doesn't it?

[Echo In Light]

16. Your use of the word "victim" is telling...but I'd say these macro realities are based on...

The place where one happens to be living, or especially born and raised in. Incidentally, there's mountains of research and journalism and philosophy and studies in political science which clearly demonstrates what I'm addressing. But since that type of info isn't the stuff of mainstream pastime {for what should be obvious reasons}, it's way below the public's radar. From there, when it finds light, the indoctrinated herd will quickly begin asserting itself in defense of the mental prison they've been conditioned to perceive incorrectly {which benefits the corporate/state nexus}. This is usually done by leveling personal attacks against those who espouse such unpopular ideas and facts, and is why objective, institutional analysis is often deemed "conspiracy theory;" as an offshoot of the corporate/state propaganda effort, the masses are programmed to view truth as 'crackpot theory.' And who benefits everytime?

[PVnRT]

43. Using big words doesn't make you right

Frankly, after reading your screed twice, it still lacks any sense whatsoever.

Or maybe....I'M PART OF THE BRAINWASHING CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!

[EstimatedProphet]

46. WE ALL ARE!!!!!!111!!!!!

WOOWOOWOOWOOWOO!!!!

[SyntaxError]

54. He is obviosuly wrong...

because it's anyone who disagrees with me, that is a victim of thought control... jeez.

[Tejas]

8. Many here are in deep denial

They proudly carry the flag of the ones that have brainwashed them into railing against the rights of law-abiding citizens. So proudly that they resist applying common sense to any debate as to the merits of the flag they carry.

Then there are the ones that hand those flags out in this forum...

[porphyrian]

9. No.

Being a liberal doesn't just mean saying the opposite of everything conservatives say. They lie all the time, but they also like to co-opt the truth and spin it their way (lies have to be mixed with truth or most people will find fault in it). I don't see agreeing with conservatives on a specific point as carrying water for them, nor do I believe being liberal necessitates adhering to a single lock-step message.

[bunkerbuster1]

11. Not "do", present tense. But I sure did carry a lot of water in the past.

I used to just love free-market solutions, thought Forbes magazine was brilliant, and wouldn't go any farther left than the New Republic.

I never actually voted for a Republican in a national office, but would say fairly nice things about Poppy Bush. Back in the day I thought Republicans could reform and "moderate" themselves with a little encouragement from sensible "centrists" like me.

I hear you about Iran and Venezuela. (Ditto for Cuba, come to think of it.) I've been tempted to refer to their respective leaders as irrational tyrants. But I don't.

The only thing that smacks of water-carrying these days that I might be inclined to do, is to try to hear out the Republican candidates for office and discuss their merits with certain other people in a horse-race fashion. I might get in a zinger or two, but I try to keep it civil, not going into any depth as to how much I really loathe what their party stands for. Don't know if that's water-carrying, or enabling, but I think it's important to keep communication channels open to people who claim to be receptive to information.

[bryant69]

17. Yes -

On the other hand I'm not sure what i think about an independent thinker who happens to always come away with the opposite of the right wing.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Marrah_G]

19. not sure what you mean by this

I don't always agree with my party on every issue. Occasionally I might agree with someone from the other side on an issue. Your post seems to insinuate that by agreeing with the other side on any topic is wrong and that one must have been niave and lied to and if they only knew the truth then they would think "correctly"

That sort of world makes me pretty nervous. I think I will continue to look at issues from the many sides they have and come to my own reasonable and logical conclusions.

[Echo In Light]

21. People fail to understand that there is an enormous propaganda effort underway here

And in their denial, instead prefer to see themselves as level headed, logical, rugged individualists who make up their own minds free from any type of environmental/cultural persuasion, and are in no substantial way guided, coerced or manipulated by external forces with an ulterior agenda. That's why America is America.

[Marrah_G]

24. Wow ............just wow

So, let me see if I get this straight.

Believing what you believe is correct.

Not believing what you believe is incorrect.

If you do not believe then you are a victim of propaganda.

If you do not believe because you have looked at all the angles and have a different view then you are still a victim of propaganda and are just in denial.

That's some scary stuff. You sound rather like a christian evangelist telling me I am misled and just need to come to God and that all my rational thoughts are just delusions brought on by the devil.

I think I will pass on whatever it is you are drinking.

[Tejas]

28. Actually, no.

Just guessing, but I think you might've took that post by 'Echo In Light' in the wrong light (pun intended :) )

See EIL's post at #4 at the top of this thread.

:)

[Marrah_G]

30. I've reread the thread

I'll stand by my view that he is saying anyone disagreeing with him is either part of the other side or being used by them through the use of propaganda and that none are able to look at things logically and rationally and make their own choices. Oh yes, and those who do think they are making their own choices are just in denial.....

[Tejas]

37. that's a somewhat broad brush to use

"he is saying anyone disagreeing with him"

We'll just have to disagree. I also believe, and agree that there are people (not anyone and everyone as an absolute) that have indeed bought everything put before them in regards to propoganda...hook, line, and sinker.

In a sense, they've accepted propoganda as evidence of truth without making an effort to look past the sugar coating. But as far as they're concerned, they are "right", though their truths are based on the propoganda. Result? Closemindedness due to the aforementioned propoganda.

The poster's scenario does indeed exist, I just don't feel he was stating that it applies to anyone that doesn't agree with him/her...just that it exists.

[Echo In Light]

55. Yes, and thank you...the reaction to the discussion of "manufacturing consent" usually raises ire

People who've never researched how thought control in an open society works often take great personal offense to the new reality such systems point to, because it can create s sense of a loss of control, yet that too is illusory and if one has a diligent mind can at least make strides toward overcoming the prevailing ideologies.

[leftist_not_liberal]

26. Then of course there is the fact that both liberals and conservatives

are economically right wing, i.e. apologists for capitalism.

But that gets libs' panties in a wad to discuss...

[IsItJustMe]

32. I did not mean to insinuate anything. But what I have seen over the last seven

years (there are always exceptions of course), I find conservatism, as it exists in this country right now, morally bankrupt, inconsistent, and illogical.

As far as taking one side or the other, I thought I made it clear that I don't consider myself as a liberal or conservative. My post was trying to get to the truth of a matter, rather than ideologies, and how difficult that can be.

[Marrah_G]

35. Perhaps we are falling into that horrible pit of miscommunication that is internet message forums

[IsItJustMe]

36. It is very difficult to convey your thought in short concise statements and I don't have the

proclivity nor the communication skills to spell out things in great detail. The only true way to get at what exactly what you are trying to get at is by an extensive Q&A?

So what you are saying is..............?

[Tejas]

38. You got it!

Me, I can't type. Constantly pecking and erasing, hard for me to have a conversation much less a debate with a keyboard.

Still, at least they haven't taken the keyboards away...yet. :)

[spanone]

27. no

[LeftishBrit]

29. Very very rarely...

though others may sometimes think I'm being right-wing because I'm against some opponents, as well as most supporters, of the Bush regime. But mostly it's because I think they're right-wing as well, not the reverse.

As regards my specific views on Chavez and Ahmadinejad: well, for a start, I think they have VERY little in common apart from both being anti-Bush. Ahmadinejad is far-right in every respect; Chavez is not.

For the rest:

Ahmadinejad: Do I think he's a nasty far-right xenophobic anti-semitic oppressive fundie theocrat, who is to the right of Pat bloody Robertson? - Yes.
Do I think he's about to get nukes/ WMD, and needs to be bombed before he can bomb us? - No! The report confirms what I've suspected all along.
Do I think he's any worse than quite a few other nasty leaders, e.g. Bush's great pals who run Saudi Arabia? No.


Chavez: Do I think he's a saint, hero, or model of democratic leadership? No.
Do I think he's much better than anyone who Bush would like to see installed in his place? Yes.

[PVnRT]

44. OMFSM! Stop making sense!

:scared:

[devilgrrl]

31. Uh no.

:popcorn:

[BoneDaddy]

33. Interesting point I have asked many times

I reject the majority of the right wings arguments but I have also, more recently, rejected some of the more extreme, irrational postulations I have found on DU.

We act as if the right is this huge conspiracy but that the left is devoid of any untruths, deceptions or misinformation. I think that is making the same mistake as those "kool-aid" drinkers we talk about on the right.

Question Everything

[MethuenProgressive]

34. I'm for hunter's rights, and think the death penalty for certain crimes is justified.

Those two right there disqualify me as a progressive/liberal in the eyes of many.
The use of labels is often an exercise is lazy thinking, and I'm as guilty as anyone.

[Tejas]

39. There will be someone along shortly

who (due to you being a hunter) will no doubt start spouting equations of guns and male anatomy. I see equations like as part of the "lazy thinking" you mentioned.

[Cheap_Trick]

41. I'd LOVE to carry the water for them

if I could drown them in it.

[Perry Logan]

45. Many DUers seem to believe anything bad the media says about Democrats. And they love to repeat it.

[EFerrari]

47. Imho, it's unavoidable and the best I can do is to try to learn

the tactics they use to try to con me and to try to watch for them like you watch for bumps in the road.

And that could be a fulltime job.

[Wizard777]

49. What water? Piss and vinager is all they have. Some call it Kool Aid n/t

[SyntaxError]

51. clearly you're a fascist...

hehehe

:hide:



I tend to be a 'question everything' type, so usually I try to process things on my own without being spoon fed the answers. This seems to upset some people on both sides of the political spectrum though...

[IsItJustMe]

58. Any why would you call me a fascist., because I don't buy into conservatism? I have no idea where

you are coming from and hopefully your comment was made in jest. In this blog format, I am learning that communication can be most difficult at times.

[Echo In Light]

61. People don't like being told that their views are influenced by external sources with specific aims

...and I'm most certainly not calling you a fascist or any other names. Good thread...don't fret the hostile name callers; given the context of the issue you're addressing, many go apeshit when confronting such social systems because it sounds so alien and remote to them - which speaks volumes to the efficacy of control/persuasion/coercion i.e. problem/reaction/solution

[IsItJustMe]

62. I can't speak for anyone else, but as a fellow human I know that my thinking constructs can't be

all that different from anyone Else's. Given that, I could fill volumes of books about mental positions that I have bought into in life, that when seriously questioned, didn't belong to me at all.

There is an old sang which I find a lot of truth in, "When you follow the herd, you step in sh!t". This is why we are in Iraq now and our media played a huge role in it.

To many people believe what they hear, rather than taking up the hard and difficult work of thinking for themselves and I am as guilty of that as anyone. But I think it is important to get what truth there is in a given situation and the only way that I have found on how to do that is to question, and yes, even question myself at times.

[Echo In Light]

63. True, for each soul there is a personal 'truth,' and it's up to each to forge that path

What I'm addressing within this thread however, is that what's going on in America isn't a "mistake," or something that, whoops, gee-golly-gosh, just came about by accident: it's by design. Coincidentally, most of the pundits who prefer the term mistake are likewise beholden professionally/institutionally to vested interests that benefit from such supposed "mistakes."

Look at it this way: if you were a slave owner, someone not averse to that position, no moral qualms or pangs of conscience {sociopathic}, than what would be the most ideal type of slave to own?

One who doesn't understand his or her own condition ... and better still, slaves who can, over time and through a systematic sense of familiarity come to relish their position as slave while remaining ignorant as to what that position is and entails {a false "happy" consciousness}. That's the "manufacture of consent;" elites using propaganda {media} to convince the populace of an unreality as reality.

[Judi Lynn]

65. Good old "perception molding." They could NOT survive without it. n/t

[IsItJustMe]

67. I have thought long and hard about the point that you are making and find merit in it. The purpose

of my original post was not to specifically to push any particular position but rather to make people think.

As to your point, Noam Chompsky has made some profound observations in this area. It seems that before the first world war, Americans were anti-war and Wilson started a commission to figure out how to change the population mind set at the time. Through media manipulation, perception management, and public relations, they were able to turn around the American population.

I make the assumption that if this story is true, the same practices are being used today and that it has become an ingrained part of the power structures that exist in this country.

If not true, the fact remains that those who control the information have the power and you would have to be very naive to think that our government does not use that power all of the time. Hence, the classical example of the Iraq war.

[Echo In Light]

70. I'm a long time Chomsky reader - he laid the groundwork, along with Herbert Marcuse...

In my understanding of, basically, how power has worked historically, up to, and very much so including, the present. The term "manufacturing consent" - often attributed to Chomsky's central propaganda model for the U.S. - came about via the leading political thinkers of the early twentieth century {Walter Lippmann}, and came about as elites were increasingly faced with the problem of losing external control/force over the masses.

As Chomsky says, "propaganda is to democracy what violence is to a totalitarian state."

Simply meaning that when elites/the state lose the ability to control the masses by force, they must rely on other, more sophisticated - and these days, quite elaborate - means of determining how and what people think as the means of ensuring control by firmly establishing what's referred to as "necessary illusions" for the public mind to abide as to lessen actual "democratic interference" which would hinder the goals and aims of elites which do not have humanity's best interests in mind.

This is what's behind "deregulation" and "privatization:" propaganda to persuade the masses that social safety nets are bad. From the perspective of corporate greed, naturally anything that lessens profit while promoting silly, idealistic, "liberal" whining sort of plights for the less fortunate and the overall common good are indeed counter-productive to their intentions. All sorts of cards are played in this type of overarching propaganda, and the U.S., for a very long time, has been the most highly indoctrinated country on the planet.

As an aside, I noted your avatar as my wife and I are both John Lennon fans. Here's a sample from one of his tunes called "Working Class Hero." The words speak to what we're discussing...

"Keep you doped with religion, sex and TV
And you think you're so clever and classes and free
But you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see."

[IsItJustMe]

79. You know what is most discouraging is when you have had a moment of truth and have seen something

very clearly, maybe for the first time in your life and as hard as you may wish to share that insight with your fellow travelers, they just won't see it until they are ready.

I would have thought that the Iraq war would of been one hell of an eye opener for people in this country, and to some degree I am sure it was, but not nearly as much as it should of have been.

All I can surmise from all of this is that, we here, in this country, have collectively failed the lesson and we will have to take the course over again.

And yes, I don't know what shade it will come in the next time, but we will be fooled again. I pray that I am wrong.

[SyntaxError]

66. Yeah, I often times bathe in jest... :D

[IsItJustMe]

68. Oh, a hit and run driver. OK I get it.

[SyntaxError]

78. Umm, I'd say no..

[Stinky The Clown]

53. Your experience is why the media is so critical - and such a HUGE problem

As you say, you're a critical thinker and capable of questioning even yourself.

Imagine of you were like most of our citizens - easily distracted by shiny objects.

The media, literally, has the power to make happen anything they wish.

[Echo In Light]

57. Yes. And when that is explained, the ones who feel susceptible often come unglued

For the obvious reasons.

[PVnRT]

59. There you go making assumptions again

Not everyone who disagrees with you is brainwashed by the corporate media. Get over it.

[Echo In Light]

60. You're imputing to me precisely what you yourself are "assuming"

It's far more tricky and subtle than how you're framing it. That aside, try getting over yourself.

[PVnRT]

77. Do you ever actually say anything?

Just curious.

[mdmc]

64. God Bless Ron Paul

:)

[Lilith Velkor]

69. May She bless him and keep him

the hell away from influencing domestic policy.

But on foreign policy, he's alright.

[LeftishBrit]

72. God damn Ron Paul!

Or at least familiarize him with those bits in the Bible that say that those who refuse to help 'the least of these' are liable to end up in Hell. As an atheist who has nevertheless studied the New Testament, it's actually a lot clearer on that topic than anything to do with abortion or homosexuality!

Fuck all far-RW Republicans and far-RW Tories! (not literally, as that might enable them to spread their genes).

[AuntPatsy]

71. I think at times no one is immue to being sucked into false propaganda but the difference is

Liberals more than likely will take more time to search for the truth without firmly blindly believing without proof.

[slackmaster]

73. Sounds like potential hubris to me

Be very careful when you claim to belong to a group that holds moral or intellectual high ground. It's dangerous ground.

[AuntPatsy]

74. You know what, your right, can I say at least the majority? After reading DU

you do come away with the real fear that those on the far right are not so much better than those on the far left...

[slackmaster]

75. The far right and the far left are actually the same place

Authoritarianism.

A Chinese friend once said to me "A left jack boot up your ass feels no better than a right jack boot up your ass."

Words of wisdom from personal experience.

[Echo In Light]

76. Perhaps you're allowing the Right to frame and define Left...

Far right = fascism.

Far left = communism, nationalist socialism, NOT libertarian/socialism, which is staunchly opposed to the authoritarian state. Note how the term "socialist" alone has been effectively maligned by the right as to represent only one aspect.

Also, there's nothing written within this thread, by myself, or anyone else that I detected, representing "far left;" people who have lived within a social climate mired in pro-corporate/right wing ideology, "values," pastimes, mass media, economic policies, etc, will naturally find liberal ideas and philosophy weird, irrelevant, unseemly, etc, because within that climate, anything degree of genuine liberalism is by default, too far to the left. This is precisely what the system of control here doesn't want the average person to comprehend.