Why I Don't Want Obama To Get The Democratic Nomination

[Yavin4]

First, let me say that I am an African American, and I want to be completely honest. I do not want Obama to get the nomination for one simple reason: America is too racist to vote for an African American to be president.

I really like Obama, and I have no problem with his politics or his stances. He's a fantastic speaker and politician. He would wipe the floor with any Republican in a debate, and even if the media gave him fair coverage (and that's a big "if"), Obama would still lose because a majority of White Americans all across this nation simply will not vote for an African American to be president, and I just think that the stakes are too high for a Rudy Guiliani to win by racial default. That prospects scares the hell out of me. Guiliani is Dick Cheney with a smile, only he's far more of a fascist.

I hate to post this, but we have to be honest with ourselves about our country and our future.

[Radical Activist]

1. Do you think

that Obama as the nominee would increase black turnout, which is always low? Isn't it possible that a 30% increase in turn out among African-American voters could counter-act the racist vote and help in several swing states, such as Arkansas and Michigan?

[NYCGirl]

2. I have one big problem with your post. A MAJORITY of white Americans are NOT

racist. Yes, there is racism, but it is a MINORITY of white Americans.

[Yavin4]

9. There Have Been Case Studies Showing This

When L.A. mayor Tom Bradley ran for Gov. of California, polls consistently showed him well in the lead until election day when he lost. Polls also showed former Virginia Governor Doug Wilder with a large lead until election day when he barely won.

[NYCGirl]

11. And BTW, I'd wager that most of these racists are REPUBLICANS!

What about the other black elected officials? How did they get there?

[bunkerbuster1]

20. Point is, Doug Wilder won. in 1989.

Are you seriously suggesting that America, as a whole, in 2008, will be more racist than Virginia, from 19 years previous?

[Radical Activist]

25. That wasn't the case in Tennessee with Harold Ford.

Ford did better than the polls were showing and he wasn't nearly as compelling a candidate as Obama.
Would Tennessee be in play if Obama increased African-American turn out there by 30% or more? You still haven't addressed that likely scenario.

[Clark2008]

34. Nope.

Ford's candidacy increased African-American turnout, but it wasn't enough.

[Radical Activist]

Nope, what? You didn't contradict me.

Ford did better on election than the polls indicated he would do. He also did better than the last white Democrat who ran for Senate in Tennessee.

[Clark2008]

78. Nope - it's not enough to win, was my point.

Voter turnout, as a whole, was up in 2006, which means, yes, AA turnout was higher, but so was the scared white voter turnout.

[Radical Activist]

92. Well, the point I was making

is that the idea that polls always under-represent what black candidates will get on election day is incorrect. You haven't contradicted my point yet.

And its entirely possible that a black candidate for President who actually reflects the views of most black voters will generate more excitement than a conservative Senate candidate. Ford lost by a narrow margin, which suggests its possible for a black candidate to win there in the future.

[Clark2008]

101. I think the opposite.

Ford was actually polling ahead of Corker up until the final three weeks and then he was dinged with racist ads. It wasn't his views that were off-putting in this moderate to conservative state - it was his family (in the West) and his race (in the East).

Oh - and Ford DID reflect the views of many Southern black voters, who are actually VERY conservative on issues of abortion and gay marriage, which Ford is.

I'm not saying a black candidate will NEVER win in Tennessee - but I don't think so any time soon. And that's just my experience on the ground here.

[John Q. Citizen]

87. Ford also ran in a year that saw a major shift to the Dems. This may be a trend

toward less bigotry that Ford did better, but my guess is, since Tennessee has never elected a black man to the US Senate since reconstruction, that maybe Tennesse also wouldn't be ready to elect a black man to be POTUS.

And i don't mean the whole state, I just mean enough people who let insignificant genetic variation within the geographic distribution of a species be a fucking reason to allow them to rationalize their voting behavior toward ethnically hardwired determinants.

We have a simular situation here in Montana. Our insignificant genetic variation between mainly the European and the Clovis differentiations. As far as I know, no Indigenous people have been US Senators or Governors from my state.

On the other hand, Obama is a really smart, charismatic, capable politician who connects with people on a personal level and who could be the guy to over-ride the latent social programing of our nation.

This is what I seem to be hearing about him. I haven't spent a whole lot of time checking out Obama, because last I knew is he doesn't have a single payer fee for service healthcare plan as of yet, so since that is one of my three criteria for a candidate this time I haven't bothered to dig deeper. So if you see or talk to Obama, please tell him he needs to dump the private health insurence companies and get healthcare for all.

[Radical Activist]

Only Illinois

has elected a black man to the Senate since reconstruction.

Obama does have the ability to portray himself as a representative for all people, not just black people, which has been a problem for black candidates in the past. I think that's part of what you're getting at.

[NoPasaran]

95. Massachusetts did also

Edward Brooke served two terms after being elected in 1966.

[Radical Activist]

102. Oh yeah.

I've heard that somewhere but forgot all about it. Thanks!

[Solo_in_MD]

56. Bradley lost due to a controversial Gun Control initiative being on the same ballot.

There were recriminations later that if it had not been there he would of won.

[jobycom]

21. You also have to worry about the degree of racism in a person.

The majority aren't David Duke racist, or even rush Limbaugh racist, but there are a lot of people who you wouldn't really call "racist" who still have a degree of racism in their assumptions. These are the people who, for instance, wouldn't hire a black applicant because they had some indefinable problem with the person's image, or who would, as a store clerk, watch black customers more than white customers for shoplifting (thus catching more black shoplifters, thus slanting the statistics), or who don't see a problem with profiling, or who, somehow, skip over the black salesman and go to the white salesman when buying a car (or whatever). Look at movies and see how many black faces you see in lead roles. Look at a large business's upper management. Look at Congress, the Supreme Court. Somehow, even if the majority of whites aren't "racist," the outcome of their elections and their buying and employment habits come out that way.

For many whites, white is the standard, and all people are judged, perhaps subconsciously, by how close to white they are.

That doesn't mean I completely agree with the OP (see my next post), but I do agree it's a bigger problem than us white folk think.

[bunkerbuster1]

44. I think it's a problem. I think Obama will have to work his ass off.

Ok, so who would we field who won't have unfair obstacles thrown in his (or her) path? Who won't have to work his (or her) ass off to be better than the opponent?

This is a weak argument against Obama. That a small percentage of white voters who'd otherwise vote Democrat, won't vote for a black Democrat, is no reason to run someone we don't want as much. No reason at all.

[jobycom]

45. Similar to what I said below, btw.

I don't think it's a weak argument against Obama. I think it's legite. I just don't believe, or maybe don't want to believe, that it is the ultimate defining argument.

[bunkerbuster1]

52. My bad. Yours wasn't weak

I think the OP's case is weak.

And yeah, I saw your post, I thought you made sense downthread.

Biggest thing is, there's going to be some ridiculous, beyond-his/her-control issue that the Repugs are going to exploit, even if we run Jesus Christ. ("He's a Jew!")

[HamdenRice]

26. Sorry, but it is the majority

It depends, of course, on how you define racist. A majority of white Americans do not burn crosses, attend Klan rallies or use the N word.

But studies in the real estate industry have demonstrated that the single most important criteria in choosing housing, for the vast majority of white people, is that there not be minorities in the neighborhood. The same goes for schooling.

While most of these people don't think of themselves as racist, they are, and their actions help maintain a segregated society.

Similarly, polls show that almost no white people will admit in polls that they would not vote for someone just because that person is black; but when they get in the privacy of the voting booth, they seem to have a sudden change of heart -- hence polling for African American politicians is notoriously inaccurate.

[Atman]

41. Good post

When we bought our first house, the real estate agent never mentioned the racial makeup of the neighborhoods we visited...not directly. She said stuff like "this neighborhood is filled with people like you. By law, I can't say much more than that, but I'm sure you understand." The neighborhood she kept showing us was 98% white college educated, in a city of more than half Hispanic and black residents.

This next election is going to be a huge test of wills for Americans. Secretly, we hate women and blacks, and our party is going to run a woman and a black. The republicans are running all white males. Surprise! When they steal the presidency in 2008, the pundits are all ready with their "America just wasn't ready for a (female/black) president.

I agree with you...we are still a very racist nation.

.

[Colobo]

55. And, for instance, blacks should not run for public office, right?

[HamdenRice]

86. And where do you get that conclusion

from what I wrote?

But since you asked about African American politicians, you may notice that the overwhelming majority of them represent African American districts, which is, in fact, more evidence that black voters vote for black politicians and white voters don't.

If it were otherwise, there would be many more "crossover" politicians -- namely African American politicians representing majority white districts. The absence of that phenomenon proves my point.

But that doesn't mean that they should not run for office. As long as society remains segregated, there are safe seats for black politicians to run in. And they should keep trying to get elected on a cross over basis, like Gov. Wilder of Virginia did.

But I for one do not favor gambling with the most important election since 1860 on America's ability to see beyond race in their political leaders.

[Marrah_G]

98. No one thought a black man could be Gov. of MA either.

White people here had NO problem voting him in in a landslide.

[HamdenRice]

129. MA is not Mississippi

Nor is MA like most of the states of the south, midwest, southwest, Pacific northwest or even northeast.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

117. Can you link to those studies, please?

"The single most" is an incredibly strong claim, and I'd be highly sceptical about accepting it without seeing the evidence myself.

[HamdenRice]

128. It's not online

The cite would be to an early edition of the Dukeminier and Krier real estate casebook, Property. I'll try to get the exact citation if I have time today.

[k_jerome]

35. thats the funniest crap i've read in a long time. nt

[NYCGirl]

46. So how do you explain the minorities already serving in Congress? NT

[jobycom]

54. Show me how many come from majority-white districts?

I'm sure there are some (Obama being one), but not most.

How many blacks are in the Senate, or have ever served in the Senate? How many have been president or VP, or even come close? How many African American governors are there? In districts where the majority of voters are white, African Americans are rarely elected.

However, Obama is already an exception.

[NYCGirl]

58. You'd then have to figure out how many African-Americans run for office in

white-majority districts.

[Yavin4]

82. Obama Won Because His Opponent Was Also Black and A Complete Loon

So even on that score, you cannot totally discount racism.

[hedda_foil]

109. The real race in Ilinois was the Dem primary -- not the General.

The Democratic primary was hugely competitive, with big name Dem politicos with heavy party backing running in a strong 9-candidate field. Obama was anything but the front runner in the minds of the PTB and MSM. Worse yet, in a state with three or four hugely influential political power brokers on the Dem side, Obama was not backed by any of them. The governor's candidate (a filthy idiot with the personality of a boiled potato) imploded due to revelations that he'd beaten his ex-wife) imploded, but despite throwing 20-30 million into ads for the primary race, he was never particularly popular. The rest of the very strong field was beaten by Obama by a huge margin. Yes, Alan Keyes was a bizarre candidate and the Illinois Republicans had gone up in flames a year or so earlier, but the Democratic primary race was huge and Obama ran a magnificent race. Don't underestimate his ability to go up against strong and heavily bakced candidates.

[Dastard Stepchild]

123. I agree...

He was by no means the frontrunner in the primaries, but he did extremely well in garnering support.

[k_jerome]

59. minorities. nt.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

89. You obviously live in an extremely blue enclave. I see it everywhere.

I haven't even lived in any extremely racist areas. I see it in the way a lot of white people look and act towards a black person. I've heard them called "nigger" by supposedly educated people. I've seen them discriminated at work from being a human resources consultant. You have to be able to see and not be blind.

[NYCGirl]

94. Yes, I do, but I've also experienced discrimination first hand (as a woman and

a Jew). I still do not think that the MAJORITY of white people are racists.

[wuushew]

3. Racism > Sexism?

n/t

[Goblinmonger]

4. This should be good

:popcorn:

[cali]

5. Well, that's your opinion, and I can understand

how you get there, but do you also say that Hillary shouldn't be the nom because she's female? Polls show that slightly more people will vote for an African American than a woman.

[Yavin4]

10. I Would Say The Same Thing for Hillary

Look, this election is too crucial to take this kind of chance. Our country is literally heading over a cliff, and we have to pull it back.

[John Q. Citizen]

15. Polls on (so called) racial and gender issues are notoriously unreliable.

Their are a lot of bigots who won't tell a pollster that they are bigots.

And even people who don't consider themselves bigots will find a rational for voting for the white male for Pres.

I think the OP makes very good points about the reality of America.

[alarimer]

104. We should not pick our nominee based on that though

Let the Democratic voters choose the nominee, whomever that might be. If they lose, they will lose because of Republican dirty tricks as usual. We should NOT choose the nominee based on who we think has the best chance of winning. We should choose the best candidate. The Republicans are such a sorry bunch of candidates, and people are so sick of Bush, that those reasons will trump whatever qualms people have about Obama or about Hillary. I mean, neither of them will be worse than Bush, that much is certain.

[no_hypocrisy]

6. What about this variable, realistic or not:

What if Barack Obama's candidacy energized the electorate across the board, meaning more than one particular demographic. Young and old; lower, middle, and upper class; native-born and naturalized; WASP, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, African-American, Asian, Latin American; cynical veteran voters and newly registered. It's simple math: get more voters to choose him over his democratic rivals and later the republican candiate.

He may surprise all of us with his possibilities. It's too early to embrace or condemn him. It may be the wisest stance to just sit back and listen to what he has to say and what he has to offer.

[Hawkowl]

18. Obama energizes the worst demographic...

the hardcore racists. He also will energize segments of the democratic base. The question is do the racists outnumber the positive turnout? I agree with the original post that, sadly, no.

[wuushew]

22. It only matters in a few key states

How racist is Ohio?

[Radical Activist]

29. Southern Ohio

is pretty damn racist but they already vote Republican.
I think when talking this way you have to consider that a majority of racists in America are already voting Republican anyway.

[no_hypocrisy]

51. I doggedly refuse to surrender to past demographics and numbers.

Every election has new possibilities with new voters and new concentrations of support. I'm going to wait and see. If you get enough voters to vote for Obama, the racists will only be a problem in trying to protect him from being assassinated by one of them.

[ShortnFiery]

7. I honestly believe that Obama has a good shot at The Presidency ...

and not near "the baggage" that the other Democratic Candidates have.

Our country is ready to elect Obama as our President.

Some of us will NOT vote for anyone who voted for the IWR. Not EVER! Yes, if Edwards or HRC gets the Nomination, I'll have to take a vacation from DU, because I will NOT cast a vote for President for them - no matter what. That does not make me a bad Democrat but will bar me from participating at DU if either one of them gets the nod. I accept that fact because I will NOT vote for war mongers.

However, If Obama is nominated, and shows me that he's not in the back pocket of AIPAC, I would be honored to cast my vote for him. :-)

[Dr.Phool]

8. I think I'd have to disagree with you.

We've already had African-American mayors in major cities. Governors. And I believe Obama could mop the floor with the majority of Democrats in a debate.

I think he'd do wonders for both registration and turnout. Especially in the south.

[Yavin4]

13. You're Being Overly Optimistic

I just don't share your view of Americans. There are a lot more racist Americans than you think.

[Colobo]

49. There are a bunch of black who have been mentally beaten by racists and racism, too...

If anything, they deserve the pity of those who will never surrender to racists and their agenda.

[goodhue]

12. Well, I disagree that a majority of white americans won't vote for african-american

But even if it is 5% it is a potential problem

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. Hopefully, you're wrong. There's still plenty of racism in 'Murka.

But, I (hesitantly) think Obama has a chance as a sort of "not Hillary" candidate.

I'm not a big Obama fan (Kucinich or Gore) but his candidacy wouldn't threaten my noseholding ability nearly as much as Hillary, Biden, Vilsack or Richardson.

[varkam]

16. I can see your reasoning

But I can also see how the same reasoning would apply until an African-American does win the election. In 2012 a similiar argument could be made about any African American candidate. My reasoning is that, just because it may not happen doesn't mean that we shouldn't try.

[slowry]

17. White guy here; definitely wouldn't vote for Obama.

But only because I'm Canadian :(.

[WI_DEM]

19. I don't know he's doing about as well as any other candidate against the repub's in polls

and we will never know unless we try it sometime. I think it's time, but in the end it will be primary voters who will decide and if he is nominated I think he can win.

[Czolgosz]

23. Where are you from? I think the concern you express has greater and lesser validity in different

regions of the country.

I hear what you are saying, and I share your concern, but if we followed that sort of thinking, we'd have never nominated JFK (people said he was unelectable because he was Catholic).

[Bake]

24. Look at what happened to Harold Ford in TN Senate race

You can say, as some surely will, that Ford's problem was that he was "Repub-lite." I'm not buyin' it. I grew up in TN, and I know an awful lot of those white voters. Too many white voters told the pollsters the "proper" answer but when they got in the voting booth, couldn't pull the lever for a black man.

I respect Obama (and frankly, I'd like to see him on the ticket as VP), but I fear the same thing would happen to him as the candidate for Prez, as happened to Ford.

Bake

[Radical Activist]

31. Ford finished better than expected.

Ford came very close to winning that seat. He finished better on election day than the polls predicted so that theory wasn't correct this time. He did better than the last white Democratic Senate candidate as well. What's his name from the Nashville area.

[brazos121200]

I absolutely agree with you.

I wish it wasn't so, but I think a black man would have a very hard time getting in this country today. The Repubs will break out every trick in their foul book to smear him like they did to Harold Ford in Tennessee. They will do it using groups which cannot be tied to the Repub party, that is how they operate.

On another post supporters of Obama are getting angry anytime anyone expresses concern over Obama's chances. Just wanting something doesn't make it so. Just believing Obama is a good man (which he is) and can win doesn't mean he will. I would much rather see him get on the ticket as the vice-Presidential candidate with a good strong candidate and then run for President after four or eight years in that post.

[Perky]

27. I think you are completely wrong.

The bigg difference with Obama is that he does not play the race game. He did not earn his stripes ion the Civil Rights movement and he carries none of cachet that that generation does. The main objection to Jesse's generation is that there is still a sense among white voters that blacks want to be seen as victims and that entitlement springs from historic issues.

Because Obame does not carry that legacy or mantra...because he is is attractive and smart and happens to be african-american white voters view him as "not-the-black-candidate". I think the nation can accept a black man as president if he merits consideration. At some levels there is a strong argument that voting for Obama is somehow atoning.

At the same time, there are many black voters who are saying "he is not black enough"

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colobo]

30. I'm taking a stand and voting for Obama

Win or lose, I won't pass this chance. He's not only the best guy for the job at this point, but he is also the black American with the greatest chance of winning the Presidency in the history of our nation, and the whole Hemisphere.

I'm not gonna chicken out just because some racists will vote against him! C'mon, what kind of attitude is that? Social progress is achieved by taking stands, even if your life is at risk. Cowards never make anything happen.

[Radical Activist]

32. How many racists do you think voted for Kerry in 2004?

Let's be honest. A majority of white people in America already vote Republican. And, a majority of racists already vote Republican as well. You can't lose voters that you never had to begin with.

The best chance for a Democratic victory is to increase turn out among minority voters who vote Democratic, but turn out in low numbers. That's what Obama will do like no other candidate can.

[k_jerome]

36. lots. nt.

[skipos]

40. Think about all the blue states that passed gay marriage bans

They couldn't have done it without some bigoted Dem voters.

[Radical Activist]

42. Just because someone isn't comfortable with gay marriage

doesn't mean they hate black people. I suspect a lot of black people voted against gay marriage as well.

But that's a good example. The gay marriage ban issue worked for the Republicans because it helped turn out their base voters. In the same way, Obama would help turn out the Democratic base of voters. Its an effective way to win. Bush won by turning out his base, not appealing to swing voters. We should learn from that.

[NoodleyAppendage]

33. Really? And, I guess you think America isn't too misogynistic to vote for Hillary? Cuts both ways.

The Obama / America is too racist argument falls apart and is likely to be a shill warning to benefit Hillary. Nice try.

J

[Colobo]

39. To all those blacks who don't think Obama can't make it, this is for you

"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery; none but ourselves can free our minds." -Bob Marley

[skipos]

37. I think he will have challenges he wouldn't have if he were white

But I don't know just how rough it will be. It would be great if the racist vote was outweighed by blacks who usually don't vote being inspired to vote for Obama. The unfortunate thing is that the states with the highest % of blacks are very red, and even a huge black turnout for dems wouldn't flip most of them.

[Radical Activist]

43. That's a poor map

because it visually under-represents the black population in urban centers.

It doesn't take many states though. If increased black turnout makes Michigan safe, and puts Arkansas and Florida in play, that's all we need. That's a victory.

Who cares if it hurts us in Alabama and Mississippi? No white Democrat is going to win those states anyway.

[skipos]

53. Unfortunately, I think the black turnout won't increase significantly

Looking at Obama vs. Alan Keyes in 2004, or Deval Patrick in 2006, they didn't get a bump in the black vote. I know a presidential race will different, and I hope my hunch is wrong.

[Radical Activist]

57. A Presidential race is different.

From what I've seen, Illinois already has a much better voter registration and get out the vote effort for African-Americans in every election than most other states. So, I would expect the change to be less significant in a state like Illinois that already has organizations like Rainbow Push and ACORN with yearly sophisticated efforts in well-organized communities.

[skipos]

73. FWIW, it looks like IL has some work to do

Illinois black population is about 15%, turnout in 2004 was about 10% of all voters.
Alabama black population is about 25%, turnout in 2004 was about 25% of all voters.

[Breeze54]

75. I disagree with your statement about Gov. Patrick

Massachusetts voters elect African-American governor

http://www.workers.org/2007/us/mass-0118/

snip-->

Patrick’s election victory is also very significant in that it takes place in a state that
is more than 80 percent white and where African Americans are only 7.5 percent of the population.
Patrick had a solid majority of votes in the mostly white neighborhoods of South Boston—once
the center of the racist anti-busing forces—and West Roxbury. In Patrick’s hometown precinct
in Milton, 88 percent of registered voters turned out.

These statistics show that voters in Massachusetts did not succumb to racism
despite ongoing racist TV ads backed by the Healey campaign.

snip-->

Despite these adversities, reports from polling places were that the turnout in mostly Black and Latin precincts was huge.
Polling officials expected 35,000 voters to turn out in traditionally “low-voting” precincts but got 50,000 instead.

Patrick’s election as governor ended a 16-year Republican reign characterized by gross cuts in spending for programs serving the state’s most vulnerable and oppressed.

The Nov. 7 vote was a clear rebuff to the severe, unrelenting and racist cutbacks of out-going Republican Gov. Mitt Romney’s administration.

[skipos]

77. What did you disagree with?

I didn't say Deval brought out the racists. What I said is that he didn't bring out the black vote by a greater margin than most governors races in most other states.

Regardless, I am changing my tune a bit. The black population of MA is 8%. 9% voted in the 2006 Patrick race. However, only 4% voted in 2004 presidential race. Maybe Deval had some effect.

The low black turnout in the IL Obama vs. Keyes race was disappointing though.

[Breeze54]

81. Because the Black & Latino vote did increase by a large amount!

;)
"What I said is that he didn't bring out the black vote by a greater margin..."

I've read that the black voter turnout in Illinois did increase in 2004!

Obama Wins Illinois Senate Race

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137408,00.html

Wednesday, November 03, 2004
snip-->
Obama won the support of nine out of 10 black voters and seven out of 10 white voters,
according to voter interviews conducted at the polls Tuesday for The Associated Press
by Edison Media Research and Mitofsky International. About 40 percent of Republicans
backed Obama, as did 75 percent of independents.

[wuushew]

60. here is a better map

http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_nhblack.html

[skipos]

76. Yes, that is better.

VA, AR, FL are swing states to look at. VA is trending Dem, AR is steadily slightly repub, FL is... well... we all know about Florida.

[ecstatic]

97. Agreed. Obama really has to be as clear as a whistle because any

infractions will be made out to be 10 times worse than if he were white.

[jobycom]

38. It may not be that bad.

Whites are about sixty-five percent of the population, blacks are about 15%. A majority of whites could vote against Obama and he could still win, assuming proportionate African American turnout, and depending on the rest of the US population (I don't know the voting statistics). IIRC, a majority of whites voted against Gore and Kerry, too, and maybe even Clinton in 92.

I'm not sure I agree that a majority of whites would refuse to vote for Obama, or at least no more than the majority who would vote against a Democrat in the first place. And those who would vote against Obama based on race would also be unlikely to vote for any Dem candidate in the first place. So I think you may exagerate the hole he would be in. I do think, though, that he would have to overcome more than a white male candidate. He will have to find a way to fend off the type of cloaked racist attacks that Harold Ford faced in Tennessee, or that Sharpton, Jackson, and Mosley-Braun have faced (you know the ones, where people say "I would vote for an African American president, but not these!"). I think he can overcome these if he's clever enough to turn the attacks back at the accuser (shouting "RACISM!" wouldn't work, but there may be ways to do it--no candidate would want to be labeled as racist, so Obama would have something to work with).

I don't know, I think he could do it, but I think he would have to work harder than most. No matter who we nominate, they will face the Republican Slander Machine (ie, the media), and will be torn apart like Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Ann Richards, etc). They will have to find a way to withstand the attacks. It might almost help Obama that he can use his race to fend off some of the charges that will arise. Maybe.

I guess my point is, I hear you, I understand what you are saying, but that's not going to be my deciding factor in who I support.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

47. He did well in southern/downstate Illinois

Which has its fair share of racists and racism (I know -- I'm from there).

And he still took 70% of the vote.

[Radical Activist]

50. Yes, Obama has campaigned in racist areas

and won acceptance from white voters before. I love Southern Illinois, but big parts of the region had segregation just as much as the South not that long ago.

[MadHound]

48. I say let's give it a shot,

It would actually say a lot about our society either way, if he won or lost. I would hope that he would win.

[cooolandrew]

61. I beg to differ he's a fighter america loves that. eg. mohammed ali. He can do it.

[Colobo]

64. Amen!

Lord, some people here would have probably told Thurgood Marshall that "Brown vs. Board of Education" was a lost cause...

[garybeck]

62. the reason I don't want Obama to win the nomination is...

first to clarify, this has nothing to do with whether I like him or whether I think he would make a good president. I think he would be a fine president and I would vote for him in a general election.

the reason I DON'T want him to get the nomination is I think he's too vulnerable in a general election. but it's not that he's black. I think the country is ready for a black president.

but I think the Republicans would eat him alive for other reasons. Some stupid reasons, like his middle name is Hussein. They will play to that. They will cast conpiratorial doubt that he's part muslim and connected to the terrorists. They don't have to come out and say it, but they will put enough crap out there to make some people wonder.

then the fact he has such little experience, they will play to that too.

at a time of war, we need a candidate with a lot of experience and one that has a minimum vulnerabilities. I think Gore would destroy any republican candidate.

Gary

[Colobo]

66. Oh, c'mon!

I mean, Republicans would look STOOPID basing their campaign on Obama's name. It would doom them. They would look like they simply don't have anything.

If Gore doesn't run, please think about Obama. The country needs men like him.

[garybeck]

68. I agree they would look stupid. however

a certain percentage of the people will follow whatever they say, no matter how stupid. believe me, it happens. :) and it's exactly the type of thing that Rove would play on. It would be another Swift Boat lie...

[RaleighNCDUer]

74. Those people would never vote for a Dem in any case, so

we wouldn't be losing anything there.

IMO we could count on an increase in the black vote and the youth vote, and I don't know of any Dems that would not vote for him because of his race, even if they did not support him in the primaries.

And I don't think I've heard a more dynamic speaker in years.

In any honest election, I'd say he has more than a shot.

In any honest election...

[Poiuyt]

105. They wouldn't base their campaign on it, but they would use their thugs to

subtly smear him by it. It would be a subconscious campaign like the way that Corker did in TN last Nov. Hell, they already are.

[cooolandrew]

125. They will run down any candidate and Obama has firght remeber John Howard. "bring it on"

[treestar]

63. If when talking about him we could just stick to the issues

He has the personality to end up being seen as an individual and not a representative of a race. The exposure he would get as the nominee would assure that. Real racists are going to vote republican anyway. IMO even the repukes in general wouldn't let it get in the way - white ones, that is - they like Clarence Thomas and Condiliar.

[Radical Activist]

65. In 2004 Kerry was the safe candidate who was supposed to be the most electable.

What we found out is that conventional wisdom about who is more electable is often wrong.

[lukasahero]

67. As a white Massachusetts resident, I can only say I hope you're wrong

I won't argue with you and say that you are wrong. I'm not sure you are. I'm "hopeful" that you are.

I mention the fact that I'm from Massachusetts because a lot of people said this about Deval Patrick during our primaries. They were proven wrong. I hope we can prove the same nationwide soon.

:hug:

[Colobo]

69. His mindset is wrong

Even if numbers are against Obama, or any other black or minority individual running for public office, how come we are going to chicken out and not support the person if he or she is worthy of our support?

If we go against ourselves from the start, then we don't deserve victory in the first place.

[cally]

70. Our two Dem leaders are breaking new ground

I'm not sure whether a female or a minority President is more threatening to many. It's a risk with either one of them. Both of them have much going for them like fundraising, media savvy, and intelligence. I'm willing to take the chance on the voters who are beginning to realize how disastrous the Republican rule has been for this country. We have to break the barriers some time.

However, I'm not supporting Hillary Clinton or Barrack Obama because neither one has reassured me they are not hawks or that they will push the necessary steps to address global warming. Both, so far, have offered proposals that I would call ineffective green washing.

[ieoeja]

71. And the main reason I DO want Obama.

Is to prove you wrong.

[Colobo]

72. Yeah!

Prove 'em wrong, Barry!

[Totallybushed]

79. You're prbably right.

Too bad.

[choie]

80. I agree with you & I feel the same way about HRC.

Nothing will spur the raving looneys into action like a woman or black man at the top of the ticket. It's very sad but also very true.

And it won't just be sheet-wearing members of Aryan Nation who feel "uncomfortable" with a black candidate, nor will it be cigar-chomping sexists who won't pull the lever for a woman. It won't just be those who scream "ROWR WHITE POWER!!!" or "WIMMINS BELONG IN THE HOME!!"

No, it'll be the middle-of-the-roaders with quiet, closeted bigotry -- people who'd never admit or even realize they have such prejudices ... yes, people who are Democrats, heaven help us -- who'll come out of the woodwork in droves to vote against Senators Clinton or Obama.

It may change over time, I'm not saying never can we have a woman or black man as presidential candidate. I hope to God we do.

But right now, in this climate? In a campaign season where the rightwing machine will be working as never before, churning out its poisonous bile with all the desperate fury of a cornered snake?

I want the best candidate who can win. For me, neither Obama nor Clinton fit the bill.

[Cleita]

83. I think that Obama is jumping the gun myself.

In ten years, he will have a real chance to be President. He's young enough to wait a decade and get some seasoning as well. Also, I think that he will be first choice for Vice President for any candidate that wins the primaries unless they are total fools.

[SteveM]

91. Not jumping the gun. Jumping ON the gun.

Google votesmart to get his stand (1998) on confiscatory gun-control, to include ALL semi-automatic guns.

[Yavin4]

84. In ANY other Year, At ANY Other Time, I Would Say Yes Obama Run

and challenge the racists and the biggots in this nation, but not this election. We've been through too much with Bush these last 8 years to hand the reigns over to Guiliani. No way.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

85. Maybe You Need To Give America The Chance To Prove You Wrong.

As long as people like you keep acting defeated with racism from the get go, and force onto others the notion that they are too racist to overcome it enough to vote for someone best qualified, then you are hurting your own cause for equality far worse than they.

You wanna help? Then do nothing less than portray an attitude that Americans are absolutely ready to vote for someone of color and that there is no reason in the 21st century to not do so.

[Marrah_G]

99. Thank you!

People said a black man could never win in lily-white Irish/Italian Massachusetts, but he did, in a landslide, because he was a damn good candidate and I hope he is going to prove to be a damn good governor.

[k_jerome]

108. bwahaha. nt.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

110. Not Sure What You Found Funny Kid.

:shrug:

[k_jerome]

114. us minorities are always hurting our own cause....our condition is our own fault. i love it. nt.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

119. .

:eyes:

[Warren DeMontague]

88. Wait a minute. What the hell makes you think Rudy Guiliani is going to be the GOP nominee?

Don't you understand who controls the Republican Party?

If it's not McCain, it'll be some glassy-eyed, Jesus drunk, anti-choice whack-a-mole like Brownback. No way no how is Guiliani -or anyone else even REMOTELY pro choice- getting anywhere near the nomination.

And if, by some slim chance, it does end up being Obama v. Guiliani, Obama will WIN: Because Obama is able to articulate a clear, morally consistent case against the Iraq War. That issue is the most important one of the day, and Obama's position is in line with how most Americans feel about it.

The Democrats who Won't Win -against anyone- are the ones who CAN'T do that.

Cough. Hillary. Cough.

[RC Quake]

90. I agree

I am convinced that my spouse & I could not conceive via IUI or IVF because of discrimination and racism. I got the feeling that our fertility specialists were not putting everything into getting us pregnant. They never really had an explanation for our infertility and couldn't explain why we couldn't even produce 1 viable embryo. I think they were racist and didn't want to bring another one of "us" into the world.

Edited to add that yes, racism seems to reside amongst the majority of the population to some degree.

[Quixote1818]

93. I am 100% sure he could win if he runs a good campaign. nt

[ecstatic]

96. I think Charles Barkley said it best....we're gonna see the true racism and sexism in this country

emerge over the next couple years. Things are going to get ugly. Then... maybe we can begin to heal. :shrug:

[CrownPrinceBandar]

100. Two simple questions......

If not now, when? If not him, who?

[Colobo]

103. If we want change in our country, we can't be cowards

Those who are not willing to put everything on the line to cause change are cowards. Giving sexists and racists power by fearing them is cowardice.

[BlooInBloo]

107. You tell those cowardly negroes what's what! Yah! Thank GOD for the helpful white man...

... to instruct the craven, cowardly negroid race on how to be courageous. He can pull all of those historical examples of "racial courage" for show-and-tell! Bombing little girls in church, giving Native Americans tuberulosis-tainted blankets, the list of white-courage-moments just goes on and on!

:rofl:

[Colobo]

111. What are you suggesting?

In case you don't know, I'm black. Darker than Obama, by the way. :)

[BlooInBloo]

106. Only racism-deniers would disagree with your core claim.

[Colobo]

113. Let's vote for white men only then

Gosh...

[Quixote1818]

115. I agree there is a lot of racism but most of those folks already vote Republican

Sure, a few more racist people will come out to vote but I think Obama will get a LOT of moderate Republican's and Independents. More than enough to win! Also, I think Obama is so inspiring he will inspire many people who don't ordinarily vote to come out and vote for the first time. You may not realize it but he has VERY broad appeal!

[Colobo]

116. Obama has what it takes

Those who do not want to see a black man or a woman get elected will always say "In 8 years", "In 10 years", "The country is not ready yet"... blah, blah, blah... what matters is today. Now. If the best candidate is green, so be it. Let's not vote with fear; let's vote with hope.

[WinkyDink]

112. IMHO, comparing local and state-wide elections to the national stage is the

proverbial apples-oranges.

I don't think the NATIONAL electorate is ready to make history, either with Obama or Clinton.
Or Romney, for that matter.

[B Calm]

118. Okay, we know how you feel, but if he ends up with the nomination will you

vote for him?

[Yavin4]

121. Of Course I Will Vote For Him and Give Him Money But

He has no chance whatsoever due to White racism.

[earthlover]

120. Martin Luther King Jr would puke....

In a real sense, we as Democrats "hire" a nominee to run for President to represent the interests of our party.

So what if we Democrats read about a company who decided NOT to hire a black man for a position because it feared that there were a lot of racists out there and it would hurt business to hire a black man for a position as a...store manager....clerk....cashier....secretary....you name it!?!

Of course, our sensibilities would be outraged at the RACISM that this company would show....refusing to hire a person of color because of his race.

OK. Isn't this EXACTLY what you are asking us to do with Obama? Because there are racists out there we should refuse to "hire" him because of his race?

So can anyone show me logically how this is any different than being racist? If we cut Obama down on the account of his being black is that ANY different AT ALL than the "racists" out there voting against him?

Actually it is more than racist. Not only is it racist in the EXTREEME to reject Obama on the basis of his race. It is arrogant and piss poor dumb shit arrogance to think that Americans would not vote for Obama because of his race. It really pisses me off. Especially because if we listened to you, Americans would not be even friggin able to make the decision. You would have....for racist reasons....even though you are black....eliminated a candidate SOLELY ON THE BASIS OF RACE!

Martin Luther King Jr would vomit in his grave. And turn over a million times.

Haven't we as Democrats reached a point where we can judge a man on the basis of his character instead of his race?

[Yavin4]

122. We Cannot Afford Political Naievete

I am not juding Obama on his race. I am judging the American people and the American presidential political process. WE LIVE IN A NATION WHERE A HIGHLY QUALIFIED WHITE CANDIDATE HAD THE ELECTION LITERALLY STOLEN FROM HIM RIGHT BEFORE OUR VERY OWN EYES. WHAT ON EARTH MAKES YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT SAME POLITICAL PROCESS WILL BE EVEN REMOTELY FAIR TO AN AFRICAN AMERICAN CANDIDATE.

We have grave problems facing this nation. We're on the verge of war with Iran, which means that we will have never-ending wars in the M.E. WE CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE THIS PRESIDENCY. WE CANNOT RELY ON THE "FAIR-MINDED", "GOOD NATURED SPIRIT" OF WHITE AMERICA.

I admire Obama. He's my type of candidate, and I will even donate money to his campaign if he gets the nomination, but I hope he doesn't because I don't want to live in President Guiliani's America, and neither do you. Trust me on that.

[rebel with a cause]

124. Then perhaps you should hold your judgment

and let things play out as they will. You might be pleasantly surprised at the outcome. Obama is popular in Illinois with everyone, and it is not based on race. You will see as many white faces in the crowd as you would in any white candidate's rallies.

I know there is racism still in the USA, but we cannot by controlled by our fear of it, or let it determine our destiny. I say challenge the people and demand the right outcome. I have lived in NYC and I have seen the results of Guiliani's policies. I live in Illinois and I have volunteered for Obama and have worked hard to get support for him in 2004. I believe in Obama. I believe he can win, and I refuse to let people like you convince me otherwise.

[cooolandrew]

126. DUDES. Repub voters like him, and from my experience they don't generally say the word like....

[mmonk]

127. Everyone is entitled to their opinion I guess.

Personally, I don't want Hillary to get the nomination. My reasoning is that the Clinton wing needs to relinquish its hold on the party (IMO, this is the reason impeachment is off the table).

[noonwitch]

130. I'd like to see a Hillary/Obama ticket, personally

I think they balance each other out well. She's more experienced, he's an amazing speaker.

I think he'd be well-situated, as VP to eventually become president. People would get used to the idea of a black man as VP prior to his running for the top job.