Flashback: Kucinich Wins Debate Poll, ABC Covers Up Results

[Blue Congress]

THIS is why they cut Kucinich from the debate- not viable my ass!!!


Presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich's supporters (and, according to his website, even some non-supporters) are demanding that ABC explain its actions of the last few days.

On Monday afternoon, Congressman Kucinich took a significant lead in the ABC online poll: Who won the Democratic debate? About the time that he took that lead, ABC removed the poll from its prominent position on the ABC website. Then a new poll suddenly went up, "Who is winning the Democratic debate?"

Those events could be seen as technical glitches, but there was more to come. Kucinich took the lead in the second poll, also, and that poll, too, was dropped. ABC also "forgot" to announce the results (Kucinich tied with Sen. Hillary Clinton as the winner), and news about the poll is nowhere to be seen on the ABC website. Kucinich was also cut out of a group photo of all the candidates in the debate.

It's a wonder viewers were even able to vote for Kucinich in the poll. He was not permitted to answer a question from debate moderator George Stephanopoulos until the debate had been under way for half an hour.

So far, the network has failed to respond to questions about these events.
http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2007/08/5255_kucinich_wins_d.html

[Dhalgren]

1. K&R, for the truth...

[Tarc]

2. Online polls are not statistically reliable

It is not a true random sampling. This has as much viability as any poll a DU users puts in a thread.

[Blue Congress]

3. Why did ABC feel the need to hide the results?

and cut him out of the picture??

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

5. They didn't "hide" the results.

Unlike CNN, ABC don't make a habit of trumpteting the results of their bullshit online polls from here into next tuesday.

[fenriswolf]

6. well if they didn't want to hide the results

why did they post a second poll? then take that one down quickly after they saw kucinich winning again? why clip him from the debate photo? why expunge comments about kucinich from their online comments section? ABC blacked kucinich out and if you don't believe that i want to live in your fairy world.

[Blue Congress]

9. exactly!

Kucinich is the one that has been blacked out by the media, not Edwards.

[yurbud]

14. it does show whose supporters are energized enough to vote in the poll

and that activism usually translates into foot soldiers in the campaign, and people who bother to get out of bed on election day and go and vote.

That's why you want to tamp it down--so others who might join see it as hopeless.

[Tarc]

22. No, it doesn't

For the reasons I already described.

Statistics 101. Take it, learn it.

[frylock]

29. again, why was the first poll a do-over..

and why did they remove the results of the second poll when they realized it would have the same outcome? statisically reliable or not, those are legit questions. why even bother to post a poll if you have no intention of posting the results?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

30. Jesus fucking christ, who cares?

It's a fucking online poll. It's meaningless. Why do you guys get so hung up on this? It makes you look desperate.

[frylock]

50. judging by the posts in this thread..

I would say quite a few fucking people care. Now again (and real slow), why, if indeed it's meaningless, was the fucking poll posted, then removed TWICE?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

4. He just lost to "uncommitted" by a factor of ten in Michigan.

So ya, he's not viable. Even when you take away the competition nobody wants to vote for him.

[fenriswolf]

7. considering

uncommitted was obama+edwards I would say kucinich did very well. Oh and the fact that the majority of america still doesnt know who he is might be a factor in why the other candidates do so well.

[book_worm]

39. well where is he going to actually have an impact on a race?

his showing in Michigan when he was the only other live candidate in the race was underwhelming.

[fenriswolf]

49. that wasnt the point of this post though

the point is that the media is choosing our candidates for us by covering only those they wish. It is reflected in the amount of articles written about each candidate, how much face time they get on television (unpaid time (ie tv shows, interviews, new pieces, etc)) and also how much talking time they get on these debates. you cannot refute that the media which is how the american people decide who to vote for is biased.

[Blue Congress]

8. why were 'progressives' like Kos telling people to vote Romney?

Ridiculous! Why do people listen to 'leaders' like that?

Why did Conyers (champion of Impeachment(ha!)) tell people to vote uncommitted instead of Dennis.

People need to stop listening to so called 'progressive' leaders. If we could have united the anti-war movement, Dennis would have won. Instead we have supposed progressives working against Dennis. Even PDA, who formed of Kucinich supporters at the 2004 convention, decided to endorse Edwards when Kucinich clearly won their poll.

There is something terribly wrong with our 'progressive' movement. Could it be that COINTELPRO is installing our 'leaders'??

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

16. Hmm... let's see.

No, I don't think it's COINTELPRO. I think blaming COINTELPRO for the fact that your candidate is doing poorly is beyond paranoid.

[Blue Congress]

18. COINTELPRO worked successfully in the past- wouldn't the Bushies try it again?

Why wouldn't they? It is the only explanation for the inaction of the 'left'

The majority of Americans are against the war and have been since 2004- why haven't we gotten anywhere?

We win Congress 2006 and then there is a surge??

WTF is going on and why can't we stop them?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

24. Argh.

COINTELPRO worked successfully in the past- wouldn't the Bushies try it again? Why wouldn't they?

So your assertion is that COINTELPRO through its surrogate ABC manipulated an online poll to discredit the Kucinich campaign. I want you to step back from the bong for a moment and consider the lunacy of that assertion.


The majority of Americans are against the war and have been since 2004- why haven't we gotten anywhere?

Because the President / Commander in Chief is, in case you haven't noticed, a belligerent fucking asshole who refuses to compromise with anybody, at all, ever, about anything and would quite happily leave our forces in Iraq hanging out to dry if Congress cut off funding - which they won't, because they don't want to anyway for any number of good and bad reasons.

We win Congress 2006 and then there is a surge??

Sure. What has he got to lose? The only way Congress can stop him is to cut off the flow of money - playing chicken with a man who has nothing to lose. It isn't the easy situation everyone here pretends it is. Our leadership is ineffective, but they aren't stupid.

WTF is going on and why can't we stop them?

Because as much as we all dislike it, he's still The Decider.

[Blue Congress]

25. My assertion is that COINTELPRO is using divide and conquer tactics

That one of their tactics is to install the leaders of peace groups to misdirect the movement.

If all the progressive groups joined forces, Kucinich could be elected. COINTELPRO was created to infiltrate and divide the peace movement in the 60's and they are doing it again.

Even Michael Moore waited until Kucinich made his Obama Iowa statement to endorse Edwards. Kucinich volunteers had been asking him to endorse Kucinich but he would not. Then the first change he gets, he endorses Edwards "mandatory" INSURANCE policy. Was he paying attention when he made Sicko? WTH!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

26. Maybe COINTELPRO installed Kucinich, then.

I can sure as hell believe they installed Cindy Sheehan too, at this point.

If all the progressive groups joined forces, Kucinich could be elected.

No. If all of the progressive groups joined forces, they wouldn't be able to throw a pot luck. C'mon, I love the Democratic party as much as the next guy but there are reasons why we can't ever agree on a goddamn thing.

Even Michael Moore waited until Kucinich made his Obama Iowa statement to endorse Edwards. Kucinich volunteers had been asking him to endorse Kucinich but he would not. Then the first change he gets, he endorses Edwards "mandatory" INSURANCE policy. Was he paying attention when he made Sicko? WTH!

Are you suggesting that Michael Moore is a tool of the BFEE?

[Blue Congress]

27. I can't understand what Michael Moore was thinking-

Why didn't he support Kucinich? Why hasn't he been using every opportunity to promote HR676? There is legislation already in the US Congress and if Michael Moore would encourage people to support it, they might just demand their congressperson do the same.

I am so tired of reading reading reading about how horrible everything is. We have checks and balances for a reason. Bush alone cannot be blamed. We have 'progressive' action groups, but when we need them they are nowhere to be found- like election fraud, Downing Street Memo, Impeachment, like supporting Kucinich!

[wintersoulja]

32. michael moore is a F'ing jerk

He may as well be a phony progressive for the nasty damage he has inflicted on important causes.
This may come across as quite imflammatory, but I have a slightly more special relationship than most with the guy's work, and Ive paid attention to his words and his silence. Hes not all that, fer damn sure.
Theres a whole spate of very despicable endorsements coming from should be responsible progressives looking to butter their bread with Hillary, or buying into notions like electability, totally disregarding who has the best record on both the war and health care. Gather a roomful of concerned voters together, regardless of affiliation. Ask them how they feel about the US in Iraq? Think they'll be on the side of the top tier there?
No matter how the top tier deny their previous votes, the record speaks louder than cheap talk from lying politicians.

[wintersoulja]

36. cointelpro is as outdated as paranoia

those spooks are free to roam the earth openly now, like the terrorists we get out of jail so they can hide behind cuban expatriates who dont mind airliner bombings, car bombings in WDC etc. Not to mention modern day US policies on torture.
Lets update our reality please.

[Blue Congress]

37. perhaps- but a way to show documentation that the gov't really uses this as a tactic

Many people still do not know about these tactics.

I agree they are everywhere now, government and private.

[wintersoulja]

42. well blame the schools and the consolidation

the real outrage is how cointelpro continued post-church committee and demonstrably against Judi Barri, Pacifica and institutionally against figures like Mumia Abu Jamal and Leonard Peltier.

Richard Held, anyone?
One more legacy from the Clinton years.
Cant wait for more of the same, can you?

[Blue Congress]

47. We need a miracle to overcome these obstacles!

Part of the problem is that many people do not believe, or want to believe, that there are evil people working for war,working for greed, working for evil purposes. So they are not looking for it and excuse it as incompetence or coincidence. If the Bush administration has give us anything, at least they have exposed this if people care to see.
We have to recognize the problem and start working for peace, just as hard as they are working against it(but without the pay).

[riqster]

45. Kos is very much Pro-HRC

It's not a broad progressive site-it has a very narrow focus.

[burythehatchet]

12. Didn't you at one time post interesting stuff

maybe I'm confusing you with someone else.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

10. He's Most Definitely Not More Viable Than Your Ass.

And are you really trying to use some manipulated online meaningless poll as substance towards your argument? :rofl:

[Blue Congress]

11. Why did ABC cover up the poll- twice?

Why take him out of the picture?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

13. Who Knows?

Either way, the poll was irrelevant as is his candidacy.

(For the record, they probably took it down due to obvious recognition that it was being 'DU'ed' so to speak)

[Blue Congress]

15. I do!

They don't want people to know he exists, because if they heard him speak the truth about Iraq, if they heard his call for Impeachment, if they understood his health care plan removing the insurance companies is the obvious solution...the corporate candidates would pale in comparison.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

17. Or not.

Why would you assume that people hearing him would automatically agree with him? Edwards has been hitting some of the same themes, and he's not doing particularly well at the moment either.

[Blue Congress]

19. The majority want to end the war

The majority want not for profit health care.
The majority want an end to the Patriot Act, drug war, NAFTA...

The American people can recognize the truth- Edwards doesn't do well because his hypocrisy is so transparent.

If they are not afraid of Dennis, why not let him speak?

[Desertrose]

23. Maybe cause people see through his veneer of populism

and know it ain't the real deal.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

20. Okey Dokey Pokey!

:crazy:

[Blue Congress]

21. keep on trusting the corporate controlled media

who reserves the right to lie
:crazy:

[Tarc]

40. Keep on looking for them UFOs

sooner or later they'll be by to beam y'all up.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

41. Your arguments are contradictory in the extreme.

So let's see what we've got here:

1) Dennis was "silenced" at the debate and his message didn't get out, because he wasn't given enough airtime.
2) The outpouring of support for DK in the online poll was a groundswell of popular support for his message.

Both of these things cannot be true. Either his message *did* get out, and the poll represented a groundswell of support, or his message *didn't* get out, and the poll results were due to manipulation by kucinich supporters.

Unless you want us to believe that DK's message is so overpoweringly overwhelming that a mere thirty seconds of exposure (as is claimed he got in the debate) is enough to render 80% of the population weak at the knees. If Kucinich *didn't* get his message out, as you claim, then the results of the online poll were obviously from people on the Kucinich forums trying to skew the results. Unless you're proposing the existence of some truly massive and yet undetected constituency for DK who somehow have managed to evade every national and state poll, and the actual results of the caucus and primaries held so far, then one of the two points most freuqently cited by Kucinich supporters *must* be wrong.

So which is it?

[Blue Congress]

43. He got little exposure

But with the little time he had, he won the debate with his straightforward obvious truth.

The polls are not reliable because they do not include Kucinich in the choices. Now with the power of suggestion and manufactured consent many people don't think he is electable and are voting for Edwards.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

46. Yes they DO include Kucinich in the choices.

Stop spreading this utter shit. They DO include him. That's HOW we know he's polling at <5%.

And your argument about his message still makes no sense. If as little as 30 seconds of exposure of DK is enough to convince people in the numbers you claim when you cite that online poll, then he damn well ought to buy a thirty second TV spot during prime time because he'd instantly win the nomination.

[Blue Congress]

48. I have read many reports of people in Iowa and New Hampshire

where Kucinich was not included in the poll. With the current climate of dirty tricks played by the media, I believe it. If you don't, you haven't been paying attention.

[wintersoulja]

28. get over it!

Nobody needs or wants a candidate who is opposed to spreading democracy!

[Blue Congress]

33. Keep spreadin American style democracy and freedom in the middle east

whether they like it or not. Soon we'll have no freedom and they won't hate us anymore.
:rofl:

[Freddie Stubbs]

31. Is it really a poll if people vote over and over again?

:shrug:

[wintersoulja]

34. is it really a poll if its pushed?

do polling companies work for the public interest?
Do exit polls matter?
I think the answers could jump back and forth here, depending on your
personal preferences and the poll cited and the results quoted.
Me, I think the polls should be taken at the polling place, by informed citizens.

[Blue Congress]

35. Is it really a democracy if people have no choices?

Why did they cut him out of the picture then?

Do you really believe the Corporate media has been completely fair with their treatment of Dennis?

Do you really believe if Hillary or Obama had won the poll, they would have hid the results?

[book_worm]

38. DK should have been in debate but online polls are not reliable

anybody can go to them. Campaigns can direct people to them. If DK was doing as well as so many of these "on-line" polls indicate he would have done much better in Iowa, New Hampshire and even Michigan where he was the only other candidate still in the race on the ballot with Clinton.

[Blue Congress]

44. Many people still do not know Dennis exists-the media won't talk about him

They cut him out of their pictures, they leave his name out of the polls.

They cut him out of the debate in Iowa, they cut him out of the debate in New Hampshire.

In Michigan we have phony 'leaders' telling people to vote for Romney and uncommitted WTF!

I don't know about you, but I see a pattern here and it started before the primaries did.

[Tarc]

51. Hysteria

Not just a Def Leppard song anymore.