It's The Debt, Stupid.

[kentuck]

For those wondering why the dollar is collapsing around the world, and why the stock market is sinking like a rock this morning, and why the price of food is so high, and why the jobless rate is going up, and why there is general malaise with our economy, look no further than the $3-$4 trillion dollars of debt that this gang has piled up in the last 7 years. Their only excuse is: If "they" had only cut spending?

The $300 refund from the initial tax cut has long been spent and forgotten by the "average Joe". That disappeared with several months of the present gas prices. If they think they can borrow another $145 billion to "stimulate" the economy, they are simply drinking more of the kool-aid. Where do they plan on getting the extra $145 billion? That's only going to add to the debtand will be a short-term fix at the best. However, it is possible with the debt-ridden public, that they may use their planned rebate to pay off some of their credit card debts? If that is the case, the money will go to the banks that need to be bailed out themselves. So, this would be a way to get money to the credit card companies thru the hands of their debtors.

[unhappycamper]

1. All empires must collapse.

We chose the debt route.

[Xenotime]

4. Welcome to the colapse of America.

[atreides1]

8. WE??????

You got a mouse in your pocket?

[shain from kane]

13. "Who do you mean we, pale-face?"

The LoneRanger & Tonto are riding down into a box canyon. At the far end, the LoneRanger notices an army of Comanche

Indians, in full war-paint, frowning down from the cliff walls at him.

Turning to his left he notices a great number of very mad looking Arapaho Indians staring down.

On his right he observes a host of Cherokee Indians peering at him over the rim of the canyon.

Looking behind, he sees every Apache brave in the world slowly creeping into the canyon, blocking the exit.

The LoneRanger turns to Tonto and says, "My, we're in a heap of trouble, huh?"

Tonto's reply, "Who do you mean we, pale-face?"

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

21. Oh, man, you asked for it now ...

Cheney and Bush are riding down into an Amazon basin canyon. At the far end, the Cheney notices a Brazilian Indian, in ceremonial paint, peering down from the cliff walls at him.

Turning to his left he notices another Brazilian Indian staring down.

On his right, a third.

Cheney turns to Bush and says, "There are three Brazilian Indians surrounding us"

Bush's reply: "Oh, my god, we're in desperate trouble. ... How many is a Brazillion?"

[shain from kane]

22. An orgy of naked Indians screwing all over the prairie, and in the center a cow with a halo.

In Montana, on the sight where Custer and his men had their asses handed
to them by the Sioux, a huge mural is to be painted. The artist insists on
complete secrecy.
When the mural is unveiled it shows an orgy of naked Indians screwing all
over the prairie, and in the center a cow with a halo. The artist says the
mural is a rendering of Custer's final thoughts - "Holy cow! Look at all
them fuckin' Indians!"

[ProgressiveFool]

26. You forgot to mention that the ground was all white

because the Indians kept coming and coming and coming...

[Tatiana]

2. I am totally against this lame-duck "stimulus" package (IOU checks).

Time for us to be big boys and girls and take our medicine.

[ramapo]

6. You said it.

There is a bizarre belief (wish?) that the days of unlimited growth built upon unlimited borrowing and debt can continue forever.

[Demeter]

3. It's the Stupids, Friends

Sometimes I think a little eugenics, retroactively applied, would not be as great a crime as letting all these Stupids live and breed and contaminate the public places....but it's hard to overcome an ethical childhood.

[shain from kane]

5. There's a man in a cave in Afghanistan laughing out loud. We borrowed and pissed away over

a trillion dollars in war spending, and it still has to be paid. Don't worry, deficits don't matter?

[tekisui]

7. Don't forget, all of this debt and recession is occuring without the Wars on the books

yet.

Millions of dollars are flushed down an Iraqi toilet every day. Still, not a penny of it has shown up on our books.

[DCKit]

9. "They" also increased the money supply by, at least, 30%.

The law of supply and demand is over their heads.

At least we can all stop wondering at the ongoing changes to our paper currency now that it's worth about as much as the Monopoly money it so strongly resembles.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

16. If they still reported M3 we'd have a better idea of inflation.

I wonder why they stopped? :freak:

[DCKit]

24. An even better question...

Why aren't liberal think tanks or other groups making a huge issue of the "real" numbers? The frontrunning Democratic candidates?

Anyone who drives their own vehicle and shops for groceries (or any other consumer item) has been aware for over four years, that we've been lied to about inflation. Too many people were already on the edge when the asshats took the WH and we're hearing little about those who have now fallen off.

The Consumer Price Index is a gimme for anyone who does their own shopping, but the employment statistics Dumbya touts at every opportunity are even more telling with some basic information:

1) There may exist an average rate of 250K new jobs/month over the reign of this maladministration. Unfortunately, 450,000 new job-seekers enter the workforce every month - and that figure does not include the newly unemployed. Additionally, the majority of new jobs are in the service sector, a.k.a., McJobs.

2) Unemployment statistics only account for those people currently in the unemployment system, not those whose benefits have run out or those who have become chronically unemployed.

The manipulation of numbers is not the sole domain of the Republics, but their blatant use of misinformation, cherry picking and outright lies sets a new standard we can only hope no Democrat would ever employ for political gain.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

27. An even better better question...

Why aren't the Dems proclaiming from the rooftops that "Reaganomics" is a total and massive failure?

Bonus: Why aren't the Dems telling us the real debt? The real deficit? The real unemployment numbers?

[Fire Walk With Me]

10. Bush knows that borrowing more money will only hurt us further. This is mockery.

And as always, we're left with the bill.

[TomClash]

11. Neo-keynesians would say . . .

. . . when you run deficits during good times, it is very hard to stimulate the economy during bad times.

Tied to the debt is the collapse of interest rates, which has destroyed the dollar.

Try this exercise with a friend or - better yet, a Repuke. Tell them they are substantially poorer than they were 7 years ago. They will look at you strangely. The dollar has lost a third of its value against the Euro during the Bush years. Factoring in the decline of the dollar Americans have lost ground against virtually every other advanced or emerging nation because as your currency weakens, your relative purchasing power declines.

The $145b is a short run stimulus. It should be done in rebate form now - not in the summer - and then we should wiat and see how the economic situation develops.

[originalpckelly]

12. Whenever capitalist systems get in trouble, it usually involves some form of debt.

Most of the major economic problems in capitalist systems through capitalism's history have been preceded by a debt based bubble. This bubble started at the end of the '90s and has been continuing to today. It kept growing after partly deflating with what everyone called the "dot-com bust" but in reality that a was trouble caused by inappropriate usage of debt.

Increasing the money supply is a form of debt, and it is the worst form. Instead of being self-limited by reality, it is an artificial probability of payment based debt. In the re-investment of previous production, there is little risk that the general economy will be harmed, as the original production once occurred even if it is unwisely used by the people it is loaned out to. On the other hand, probability of payment based debt, is not based in real production but the estimation of production at a future date. Various factors play into whether there is a high probability of full or high percentage payment of the debt back to it's lender, but if money is lent out that is not based upon actual production, that money effectively doesn't exist or when the debt is not fully payed back, the economy in which it occurred falters and loses productive capacity in the amount of the debt not payed back.

[kentuck]

15. We may have finally found a leader to make people forget....

about Herbert Hoover? Mr Bush may have found his legacy?

[originalpckelly]

20. Actually, those Bush tax cuts were definitely apart of this in my view.

Aside from real production growth, or probability of payment based debt growth, the economy is a zero sum game. If someone cuts money somewhere from a government program, it is not lost, it just stays in the hands of the people who originally had it, which is bad if that money was being used for a poverty assistance program. If someone cuts taxes, then that money must either come from a surplus in government revenue or come from probability of payment based debt. As we all know, the origin of the federal deficit and thusly debt, is not based in real production but a probability that production will occur at some future time. That means when real money is injected into the economy, it causes definite artificial growth, yes per person it's only so much, but it adds to a lot of money when combined. This money delays the bubble collapse in my mind, and over the years, causes it to deepen by preventing the self-correcting mechanism of any market from working.

Ironically, these tax cuts were a part of a policy to raise taxes, even just the interest on the debt causes it to be more expensive than just taxing and spending, but the fact that there was a massive spending increase means that Bush has been raising taxes, big time.

[madokie]

14. Yesiree

the whole purpose is to bankrupt the country so as to bury the The New Deal

[shain from kane]

17. The Newer Deal will rise as a phoenix from the ashes.

[kentuck]

18. Necessity is the mother of invention..

Just as was the first "New Deal"...

[madokie]

19. all I can say is us who are pushing for cleaning this mess up have a full plate

I sure don't like the thought of leaving this world having left it much worst for our children and grand children to have to deal with and with no plan to fix it at all plus all plans put forth are buried post-haste. Its seems at times we have no recourse and maybe we don't I don't know but its hard for me to sleep at night when I think of whats happened to our future on my watch. This is not right what we are allowing to happen today, that I do know

[Bandit]

23. You think the wealthy own everything now, just wait a couple of years

Foreclosures will be rampant and the super wealthy will be buying up property at rock bottom prices. 1% of the country already owns over 40% of our assets. by the time Bush* is out of office it will be over 60% and climbing rapidly..It is a hayday for the super rich...

[SoCalDem]

25. For MOST people, that $800 is a drop in the bucket.

I'm betting that they will NOT re-pay credit card debt with it.. If you have several thousand dollars' worth of debt, that $800 may only hold the wolves at bay for a month or two, so my guess is that they blow it on something frivolous..like...

a long-needed car repair...some FOOD for the pantry... new ties for the cars..some gasoline to get back & forth to work..etc..


for people like us..

it will just go into the bank with the rest of our money, and we won't use it for anything special.. There's nothing we "need"..