So, I'm reading Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, and I come across this paragraph:

[dave123williams]

"Most of the crimes which disturb the internal peace of society, are produced by the restraints which the necessary but unequal laws of property have imposed on the appetites of mankind, by confining to a few the possession of those objects that are coveted by many. Of all our passions and appetites, the love of power is of the most imperious and unsociable nature, since the pride of one man requires the submission of the multitude. In the tumult of civil discord, the laws of society lose their force, and their place is seldom supplied by those of humanity. The ardor of contention, the pride of victory, the despair of success, the memory of past injuries, and the fear of future dangers, all contribute to inflame the mind, and to silence the voice of pity."

....and could not help but be reminded of the folly of this country during the last seven years.

[NC_Nurse]

1. I've thought of that many times over the last few years.

We are definitely in our declining years. Our society has become too materialistic and hedonistic to
be sustained in it's present form.

[ixion]

indeed... an appropriate quote...we've been on the path of Rome for nearly half a century now

and in the past several years we've started the final death spiral.

The saddest thing, IMO, is that this is well-documented and yet we do it time and time and time again throughout history.

[winter999]

7. However, Gibbons main argument for the fall of Rome was

due to the "civilized", sedentary lifestyle of it's citizens in the face of a world of savage barbarians. Once the people didn't have the stomach to fight, they let barbarians into their military, their lands, their government. They basically let the wolves tend the sheep and got what they deserved. And what does Gibbons identify as the cause of the weakening of the Romans??? The rise of "peaceful" Christians.

BTW, I'm about half way through - great read! You learn real quick that we haven't advanced as much as we think we have.

[AdHocSolver]

13. The armies of ancient Rome were mercenary armies. Hiring "barbarians" was equivalent to offshoring.

The Roman armies were financed and controlled by wealthy people. In today's jargon, we would say that they were "privatized".

[RuleOfNah]

15. Read Shock Doctrine.

Then it will be easier to understand how disasters are treated as profit centers. Not a new trick, just an ignored one.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

2. Poverty causes crime rates to rise...

but we just seem to build more prisons, and then privatize them so profits can be made.

sick all the way around. :(

[opihimoimoi]

3. The Abuses of Power by the Few impedes/stifles Advancement for the many

[L. Coyote]

4. Bush tax cuts =

Bush tax cuts = " the necessary but unequal laws of property ... confining to a few the possession of those objects that are coveted by many."

[dave123williams]

11. Ding ding ding! We have a winner.

[RaleighNCDUer]

5. Not surprising, as throughout Gibbon's book about Rome there is

a distinct sub-text about the British Empire - essentially, all great empires follow the same pattern in their fall.

[bemildred]

6. And an example of that from later on:

"Dost thou not know that the greatest part of Asia is subject to our arms
and our laws? that our invincible forces extend from one sea to the other?
that the potentates of the Earth form a line before our gate? and that we have
compelled Forture herself to watch over the prosperity of our empire? What
is the foundation of thy insolence and folly? Thou hast fought some battles
in the woods of Anatolia; contemptible trophies! Thou hast obtained some
victories over the Christians of Europe; thy sword was blessed by the
apostle of God; and thy obedience to the precept of the Koran in waging war
against the infidels is the sole consideration that prevents us from
destroying thy country, the frontier and bulwark of the Moslem world. Be
wise in time; reflect, repent, and avert the thunder of our vengeance, which
is yet suspended over thy head. Thou art no more than a pismire, why wilt
thou seek to provoke the elephants? Alas, they will trample thee under
their feet." -- Timour the Lame

"Thy armies are innumerable, be they so. But what are the arrows of the
flying Tartar against the scimitars and battle-axes of my firm and
invincible Janissaries? I will guard the princes who have implored my
protection; seek them in my tents. The cities of Arzingan and Erzeroum
are mine; and unless the tribute be duly paid, I will demand the arrears
under the walls of Tauris and Sultania. ... If I fly from thy arms, may
my wives be thrice divorced from my bed, but if thou hast not courage to
meet me in the field, mayest thou again recieve thy wives after they have
thrice endured the embraces of a stranger." -- Bajazet, Ottoman Emperor

-- As reported by Edward Gibbon in "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"
Vol. 6 Ch LXV.

[kineneb]

8. Chalmers Johnson's last vol. in Blowback series

has a whole section on the fall of both the Roman and British empires. Good reading.

[UTUSN]

9. If you run across a passage I've been looking for for a few years, let me know

It's related to the "bread and circuses" thing, but specifically to the wars the emperors engaged in in farther and farther flung areas, and how the Roman populace didn't care, were unengaged, letting the elite have their wars so long as the cost of living in Rome was tolerable.

How the political game was for the big boys, and the people were willing to let them have their games.


It relates to how us Unwashed believe we have a say-so in political discussions, whereas perhaps it's just a game for the big boys.

[Blackhatjack]

10. ALL EMPIRES END. It is always just a question of how fast and when....

Remember this... with the consolidation of power and wealth into the hands of a few, the speed with which the empire falls tends to increase.

And when an empire falls, there is always a massive transfer of wealth and power from those deposed into the hands of a new formerly dispossessed group --which in many cases may be smaller and more corrupt than those deposed.

And so the cycle begins anew...

[malaise]

12. Profound indeed

K & R

[AdHocSolver]

14. In "Wealth and Democracy", Kevin Phillips describes the process by which ALL the empires collapsed.

The Roman, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch empires, etc. all vanished for the same reasons. They eliminated their own middle classes by practices familiar to us today.

Those empires offshored jobs by starting wars to gain colonial rule over other lands for cheap resources and labor, fought continual wars to hold on to those colonies against internal rebellions and foreign competition, and taxed their people into poverty to maintain their armies and navies. The ruling classes, of course, maintained their lavish lifestyles at the same time.

Miltary defeat and/or economic collapse finally did them in.