Are We All Germans, Now?

[bobbolink]

I remember as a kid.... junior high, we called it in those days, having endless discussions about "How could the German people allow that horrid mess to happen?" "What were they doing?" "Why did they ignore the suffering of so many people?"

Questions that still, for the most part, have no answer.

Without those answers, we keep thinking that it's "THEM"... it's the GERMANS who let it happen. We're different.. we're much more kind, we're much more aware than those awful Germans.

Yet, here we are, in the richest country in the world, plenty everywhere, and yet people right here are starving, people right here are dying of curable and preventable illness, people right here in front of us are suffering and dying of homelessness.

"How can we allow this horrid mess to happen?" "What are we doing?" "Why are we ignoring the suffering of so many people?"

We always thought that we, Americans, and especially we, Democrats, were DIFFERENT. We have more soul, we have more compassion, we have more spine.

Yet, where are we?

Why, when we are so anxious to win back the Blight House, are the two remaining candidates NOT DISCUSSING PLANS TO END POVERTY?

Why, here on the leftest of the left, do we see people posting hostility towards poor folk? "Many poor people aren't good people."

"Poor people don't vote." RIGHT! So, who, pray tell, were the people standing in line to vote for 3 hours, 5 hours, 7 hours and even more? Were they rich? Were all you middlclass people standing in those lines? Who were THEY?

Would we quietly allow this kind of ignorance about people of color on DU? Would we allow this kind of ignorance about gay people? Would we stand quietly and allow talk like this about Jewish people? WHY??? Why are poor people the outcasts of the Democratic party?

There is so much snobbery about those "who don't vote their own best interest", as if we as so pure as to never get fooled. Yet, when a poor person says "I won't vote for a Dem if s/he won't stand up for me", then we're castigated, and called a RW shill. (How's that for silliness, and yes, I've gotten that, too!)


Over and over, threads here on poverty sink like anchors. We ask simply for a phone call, or an email for an upcoming vote, which would take, at most, 1-2 minutes. IGNORED. Yet, when we mention that, we're given all kinds of excuses to brush us off. "How do you KNOW that nobody called?" (right, and yet you can spend hours on silly polls, or posts on Britney, for the goddess sake!)

If we have the temerity to complain that we aren't even mentioned in debates or speeches, we're told we're selfish winers.... "Just because *your* issue wasn't mentioned, you're going to have a tantrum?" So, was Martin Luther King having a tantrum all those years by demanding that Civil Rights be an issue?

"It isn't the right time... you'll have to be patient." Kinda the same thing that was said to Martin, isn't it?

What will it take for my suffering, for the suffering of millions of us, to stir your heart?

[Fredda Weinberg]

1. I've got answers ... I had a German great aunt w/a tattoo on her arm

We don't see the level of suffering that existed under the Wiemar Republic, violent anarchists or runaway inflation. Since the Great Society, poverty has become a manageable issue and all we need is an effective government to deal with it.

[Junkdrawer]

3. ..and the suffering of the people of Iraq....

:shrug:

[fasttense]

6. You may not see it

but it's out there. Look at the rising number of homeless, the rising number of children without health care and homes, the rising number of Americans going hungry, the rising number of people falling into poverty, the rising number of foreclosures (About 7,500 households a week, where are they going?), the rising number of people who have dropped from the unemployed rolls because they have been looking for over a year, the rising number of bankruptcies. You may not see it because America is good at hiding its shame, but it's out there.

Something wicked has come over this country.

[bobbolink]

14. "You may not see it " Exactly! "My pain is worse than your pain."

Which continues the whole cycle of pain, over and over and over and over...

Thank you, fasttense!

:hi:

[Fredda Weinberg]

19. I live in Brooklyn NY. I remember when the homeless were stacked

along the corridors in Grand Central Station cardboard 2 cardboard in the Raygun years ... I've see it ebb and flow for almost half a century now.

No, nothing wicked has come ... the effort is to act when times aren't desperate. That's why I support those who demonstrate effective governance ... I know we can do better and remember seeing it.

[readmoreoften]

30. You should get out of NY.

Guiliani bussed the homeless to Jersey at the beginning of his term. The homeless rate in Manhattan dropped and the rate in Jersey shot up. Since Bush was in office my parent's home is so gang-ridden that they can't leave the house for fear of being shot or attacked. Kids urinate and defecate in people's back yards. This was a decent neighborhood in 1999.

Sure Manhattan and Brooklyn (some parts) cleaned up but that's largely because of drastic Republican measures and NYU buying up everything in site and renting it to wealthy white kids. New York is a heavily monitored playground for hipsters now.

My family is Jewish and they aren't blind to it. We've been calling it fascism for quite some time now.

[redqueen]

45. Jesus...

*sigh*

[DaveJ]

74. Yeah, I thought that was common knowledge

I've never even been to the NE part of the country, but it was always clear to me that NYC was cleaned up just through gentrification, making it impossible for normal people to afford. It worries me that some people don't find that obvious....

[theredpen]

110. We see it and so do Clinton and Obama

The OP complained, in part, that the candidates are not talking about these issues, and in fact they are.

[bdamomma]

171. power of that 1% and those corporations and of course * does

not help the disappearing Middle Class. I wish they would crawl back under their rocks.

[Two Americas]

44. 1933

What if it were 1933? We wouldn't know yet. Hindsight is of no value here. By the time people could provide you with the sort of certainty you are demanding, it would be too late. There were lots of people in denial all through the 30's, too.

[Bjorn Against]

54. It COULD be a manageable issue IF we had an effective government.

Unfortunately the people in power in this country have no interest in confronting poverty. There is no reason that there should be even a single poor person in the richest country in the world, and yet there are millions of them. Poverty has not yet become a manageable issue only because the rich and powerful have not allowed it to become a manageable issue, they want more wealth for the already wealthy and they have no interest in seeing the wealth redistributed. If we want to get serious about confronting poverty we need to get serious about confronting excess wealth.

[Andrea]

69. It might be a manageable issue

in a macro sense, to society as a whole, but for those caught in it, it is a nightmare. I think this is analogous to hearing about some terrible disease that only one in a million people get. To most of us, that makes it a pretty obscure issue, but if you happen to be that one in a million - it's your whole world.

I don't think we can look at this as a matter of expediency. "Oh, it's a manageable problem. We don't have as much poverty as country X. Let's put that a little further down on the list while we tackle some other problems." It's a moral problem. How can we let our brothers and sisters go to bed hungry? How can we let our people sleep in subway tunnels and under bridges? What does that make us?

I remember during Katrina, watching all those stranded people on TV and just crying and crying. I kept thinking, "How can they do this to our people? These are OUR people out there suffering and dying!" Well, of course THEY didn't care. They let it happen and they keep letting it happen. They should take care of it, but they won't. And we know they won't.

So, it's up to us. We have to insist it be rectified. We have to raise our voices. We have to work. We have to care. And we have to keep at it until it is solved.

[Silver Gaia]

167. Excellent post, Andrea.

It's a moral problem. How can we let our brothers and sisters go to bed hungry? How can we let our people sleep in subway tunnels and under bridges? What does that make us? ... We have to insist it be rectified. We have to raise our voices. We have to work. We have to care. And we have to keep at it until it is solved.

You're right. It's up to us. We need to be marching in the streets demanding action. And beyond that, we need to be out there getting our own hands dirty working to find viable solutions that not only provide bandaids and stopgaps, but attack the roots, the core, the causes of this problem.

[JDPriestly]

82. True, this is not Germany in the 1930s, but the level of paranoia

in the United States is extremely great. We have inflation, and the dollar is rapidly falling. Many of the elements of the Great Society have been eliminated. For instance, the proof of disability needed to qualify for SSDI -- Social Security Disability Insurance has deprived many Americans of needed benefits, especially the mentally ill.

You have posted a number of interesting statements about the Third Reich. I wonder if you have read this book:

They Thought They Were Free, Milton Mayer

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know, it doesn’t make people close to their government to be told that this is a people’s government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing, to do with knowing one is governing.

"What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.


http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

If you have not, I recommend it. I found a copy at my local library. Milton Mayer interviewed Germans after WWII. This book is quite readable although not extremely well organized. Having lived in W. Germany and Austria for some years, I already knew much of the information in the book, but the stories were still quite interesting.

[skater314159]

109. One of the best books of the Anthropology of the Third Reich. n/t

[Andrea]

152. I'm not familiar with that book, but

I'm going to have to track it down now. It sounds like it will be very illuminating on some of my questions about how we all perceive our country, now. thanks for posting this.

[skater314159]

108. I was going to respond to the OP,

but you summed it all up for me. My grandparents were also affected by the war; my great-grandparents had stories from "The Turnip Winter" and when people were literally starving during the Great War and the Weimar Republik. Luckily, my grandfather who was a scientist, was able to leave with my grandmother (who was Jewish) and come to America. He was able to bring over his and her parents after working hard.

I agree, we just need an honest, caring and compassionate government (beginning with the President!) to take care of all Americans. Slurring entire ethic, cultural, or social groups of people is both bigoted and ethnocentric, and NEVER justified - no matter what you or anyone is going though.

:hippie:
skater314159

[redqueen]

2. It would take more people suffering, I think...

I think many people just can't (or won't) see past their own circumstances. We'll need new Hoovervilles.

Nader is right. But this time, the planet hangs in the balance... so I hate him for ignoring that, and I hope you'll reconsider not voting for the lesser evil.

:pals:

[Andrea]

71. "We'll need new Hoovervilles"

You're correct, so lets look on the bright side: the new Hoovervilles will be here soon. Sigh.

[bobbolink]

102. Yes, that's definitely true, and it can't come too soon!

[skater314159]

112. There already ARE Bushvilles...

here in the Dallas area; there has been a rise in families who have been displaced from thier homes due to losing thier homes because of the whole loan scandal. Last week I heard that 20,000 - 30,000 people in Texas are homeless because they have just lost their home. Churches, temples, and other charities are having to help families that have SUVs and all the trappings of living in the suburbs but are now HOMELESS. There ALREADY ARE Bushvilles!

This is not because of anything that we, the American people have done. It is not because the system in our country is broken... rather it is because we have had evil, corrupt, self-serving, heartless, unloving, uncompassionate people running this country for the past eight years. The Republicans have been the ones who have cut our social services while talking of compassion and their god. The Republicans are the ones who have stopped universal medical care for all Americans since it was first mentioned in the early 90s. It is the Republicans who are spending BILLIONS of dollars on a bloody war in Iraq.

Imagine if only we could have the money from the Iraq war to build homes, to feed people, give them clothes, build schools and libraries, and to pay for peoples' health care. Think how wonderful that America would be.

[Andrea]

153. Well, what a picture

I can only hope that Bush ends up as universally hated as Hoover was, or more so.

You said, "we have had evil, corrupt, self-serving, heartless, unloving, uncompassionate people running this country for the past eight years". Why are you going so easy on these vile creatures? ;)

You also said, "Imagine if only we could have the money from the Iraq war to build homes, to feed people, give them clothes, build schools and libraries, and to pay for peoples' health care. Think how wonderful that America would be." Boy, isn't that the truth. What a travesty. :cry:

[lisainmilo]

78. How many more??? 100? 500? 1 000? 1500? 2500? 5000? 10000?

In January alone 17000 fell off the payroll for various corporations! Was Johns' message a forewarning of this and what may come? I don't know I am not that savvy when it comes to that sort of thing, nor am I psychic! But I do know that I did a google search a few days ago.....typed in "california layoffs" then "Virgina layoffs" then "1000 people layed off", etc. was not to hard to find companies and corporations all over laying off thousands of people. This particular link provides the numbers for JANUARY 2008.

US January payrolls fall 17,000, first drop since 2003; unemployment at 4.9 pct
February 01, 2008: 08:47 AM EST


WASHINGTON, Feb. 1, 2008 (Thomson Financial delivered by Newstex) -- The US economy lost jobs in January for the first time in more than four years, a decline likely to further stoke recessionary fears, although the unemployment rate dipped a bit from the prior month, the Labor Department said today.

The economy lost 17,000 jobs in January, a surprise drop compared to the 58,000 jobs economists polled by Thomson's IFR Markets had expected from the survey of employer payrolls. This marks the first monthly loss in non-farm payrolls since August 2003.

<snip>

CNNMONEY:http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/newstex/AFX-0013-22708206.htm

[Yuugal]

81. I wonder what the real unemployment rate is.

If you just compared how many people want a job vs how many people have one.

[skater314159]

113. Last week the Unemployment figures jumped

... from December to January. I woke up to that yesterday morning on NPR.

I don't recommend listening to NPR to wake-up... it kinda bums out your whole day with bleak stuff. :(

[Andrea]

155. Yeah. I do listen to it for wake-up.

And nearly all day. It can get your day off to a sad start. I remember I had quite a streak going where day after day I woke up to "X number of service people killed in Iraq yesterday."

There was one day where it was great, though. I remember it fondly like it was yesterday. The first thing I heard when the alarm went off was, "Al Gore has won the Nobel Peace Prize." Started my day with a great big, face-splitting, ear-to-ear grin!

[skater314159]

169. Yeah! Me too! That was GREAT!!! n/t

[Andrea]

154. Me too

There are so many people that have long ago fallen off the rolls. I bet it is horrific. And there are some groups among which it is worse than overall and some of those numbers are staggering.

[screembloodymurder]

4. Watch this skinhead cop strip search.

http://podblanc.com/?q=node/13519

[Yael]

5. Dear bobbbolink

:hug:

Our family lost people in HaShoah. I can relate.

[bobbolink]

15. I'm so sorry, Yael. That's a pain that doesn't go away. As my pain for the

suffering right here in River City doesn't go away.

We keep doing the same things, and because it doesn't look quite the same, we avert our eyes.

:hug: :loveya: :hug:

[eleny]

7. Draconian rules were put in place to reduce the "welfare" rolls back in the 90s

And now we're supposed to be proud of that. I don't think so. I was working for the state human services back then and saw some of the results. It was tough on a lot of people.

You've got a conscience, dear b, and you won't be moved off it.

[bobbolink]

16. Exactly, and done by a DEmocrat! Related to the one we're likely to get next...

with more of the same results?

Yet, those poor people weren't even important enough to Bill to track them.

NOBODY KNOWS how many of those women and children kicked off welfare are now homeless!

NOBODY KNOWS how many of them have died!

We avert our eyes, the same as the Good Germans.

"You've got a conscience, dear b, and you won't be moved off it."

And neither was Edwards "moved off it", and we are both paying the price.

I *WISH* I could avert my eyes! It HURTS to see it all...

:cry:

ps... thank you for being there for all those who needed you at that horrible time! The morale must have been in the basement!

:hug:

[hootinholler]

83. Tough? It was brutal on my sister!

She almost had to drop out of school because of it. If it hadn't been for my mom she would have been forced to drop out.

-Hoot

[earth mom]

8. I SO hear you and I'm SO SORRY. A lot of us are trying...we wanted Edwards or Gore so badly.

We desperately wanted a leader that would help us turn this evil fascist corporate stranglehold on this country around!

I know what it's like to live as the working poor. Hell dh and I were almost homeless more than once!

I care, and I know there are many many DUers that care.

But we are being drowned out by people who have only their own selfish interests at heart by supporting disgusting corporatists like Hillary & Obama.

I'm feeling so much anger and despair today, I just can't even begin to tell you.

All I can say is I'm sorry and I understand.

:grouphug:

[Two Americas]

39. heart breaking

All of the most compassionate and perceptive people are on this thread, and it just breaks my heart.

This is wrong. The people here should not be suffering the way they are. They should not be punished for caring. We must turn this around, no matter what it takes.

TheGoldenRule, bobbolink, Sarah, Gateley, Yael, smokey, saracat, eleny - I stand with you. You are an inspiration and a lesson in courage and compassion.

[vanboggie]

104. And I stand with you, too

I just wrote the DNC and Ted Kennedy to tell them I don't recognize my party anymore. Democratic ideals and principles left with John Edwards. It's much too easy for people to look the other way. Americans got comfortable with being safe and untouchable living the American way of life. That's crumbling daily and if a person hasn't lost their job yet, the corporatists just haven't had the opportunity to farm out your job.

Then what will they do with us? Halliburton camps maybe?

I mourn for the loss of John Edwards and our voice.

[antigop]

129. I stand with you. I'm depressed as hell.

I keep thinking of Michael Moore's questions in "SICKO" after the people were dumped in the street in front of the shelter:

"WHO ARE WE?"
"WHAT ARE WE?"

What the HELL is wrong with this country?

(Sorry, for the rant.)

Just want you all to know I'm as frustrated and depressed as the rest of you.

I will continue to send my monthly checks to the local food bank and see what else I can do.

[asdjrocky]

9. Thanks Bobbo, the fight will continue.

Poor people matter. K&R

[gateley]

10. I also was baffled as to how the Germans could let that happen. WE wouldn't

have tolerated it.

Then I heard Naomi Wolf, and now understand the Germans didn't KNOW it was happening to them. They were still living their lives as they'd always been. Then slowly, stealthily, the horrors began to make themselves known. And then, the people were mostly concerned with saving their own lives, which is understandable -- just trying to survive.

I think this government has made the poor invisible, like Hitler hid the real goings on from public view.

There are no stories or acknowledgments that this segment of society actually exists. The focus has been on the haves. The silent assumption was that everyone was doing, if not really well, then at least were doing okay.

Now that more and more people are being faced with economic problems, like the Germans, they're scrabbling to make sure they survive.

It's been an absolute shame that so many people are hurting so bad. I don't know why we have been so unreceptive to this tragic situation.

I give you my word that I will make those calls and send those e-mails, and spread the word in my little universe.

You're indefatigable in your effort to keep this in our face. I'm grateful.

:hug:

[Two Americas]

121. good post

I mentioned "Last Train from Berlin" in another post, and I strongly recommend it. He showed that by the time people knew, it was far too late. Right up until the time of the invasion of the Soviet Union, things still went along normally. People were willing to overlook things, or could justifiably claim that they had no way to know, but that is absolutely no different than the situation here today.

Yes, there had been an invasion of Poland, but that seemed as justified to the German people as the US invasion of Iraq does to many Americans. The Poles were thinking about hurting Germany, just as we were led to believe that the Iraqis were thinking about hurting us.

Yes, Jews had been under horrific restrictions and were suffering terrible persecution, but as of 1941 not any more visible or severe than the treatment that people of color, Moslems, Persians and Arabs, immigrants and poor people are getting here today.

Yes, there were rumors of camps, and torture, and arbitrary arrests. Sound familiar?

Yes, legislation had been passed that destroyed civil liberties and undermined the German constitution and placed inordinate power in the hands of the few and in the police agencies. Sound familiar?

We have the benefit of hindsight concerning Germany. We know how it turned out, but most of what we know happened between 1941 and 1945. By 1941 it was far too late. Up until then I cannot see the German people as having been in any more denial, or any more complicit, than the people are here today.

We must compare the United States circa 2008 to Germany circa 1933-1939, not 1941-1945. Almost everyone makes this error. By the time conditions here are undeniably parallel to those in Germany in 1941-1945, it will be far, far too late.

[bobbolink]

130. Thanks, gately! I don't know about "indefatigable".... you haven't seen me in my fatigues....

:) :) :) :) :)

I give up a lot. It hurts to keep plugging away and get so many naysayers... so much being ignored.... so much being put down.

It wears a person.

And it doesn't seem to do much... I don't see a rise in activity to change our situation. I'm glad you will do more calls and emails... would that you could get the rest of DU to do the same! Now THAT would force some change!

:hug:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

11. Great post!!! I agree. I'm frustrated as hell.

I recall when Clinton was being impeached, walking around feeling as if I were going to pass out. I kept calling and writing my reps and nothing happened. I wrote letters to the editor that were never published. Democrats around me didn't even bother to call or write anyone. They were comatose and so, in a way, was I. More often than not, the only thing that occurs to us is to call or write (those of us who are active - some don't do anything at all, or even vote). Then I began to study what the Repukes had done to take over our country.

What they did was they asked all Republicans to get involved in their own way. To get active, from protesting abortion clinics, to going to PTAs and protesting, to running for small public offices, to everything. That is how everything came to be run by Republicans, and we were surrounded by them at every turn, unable to change anything, and watching our country go to hell like a person tied to a railroad track watching the oncoming train.

WE need to get involved like they did. They did it to do horrible things to people. We need it to do good. Sounds simplistic described like that, but it's actually more of a life or death situation for our country.

[NOLALady]

28. Where do we start?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

61. Everywhere, really. I looked around when Clinton was being impeached...

and right wingers OWNED everything. They didn't do that overnight. It took them billions of dollars in think tanks and they asked their membership to run for office at all levels, get involved at all levels, and even infiltrated churches.

[riderinthestorm]

68. In your neighborhood, in your community.

NOLA - whew! Lots to tackle there....

I live in wealthy Dupage Co., IL. But even here, poverty lurks and those who care, see.

I organize and collect for a monthly food drive in my community for our community food bank. I also organize a local "Coats for kids" at the end of September each year as the weather turns cold and my wealthy neighbors are buying new ones for their kids. Find a school and create a "Santa Tree" - pm me if you want more details on how to do this - I've been on both sides of that "tree"! There are programs to facilitate ESL skills, computer skills, resume design to enhance careeer prospects, and more in virtually every community that I know of. Jump in where you are comfortable!

This isn't hard, and really isn't time consuming. The food drive alone takes maybe an hour total/month.

To be truly democratic (small "d"), we all have to care about our community, and starting local is one of the best ways to get a grip on the real issues that confront your own. Even though I am one of a handful of Dems in Dupage Co., I like to pride myself on the knowledge (and fact!) that I am taking action about the issues that Dems care about like poverty whereas my rich Rethuglican neighbors drive to church and pride themselves on tithing to Willow Creek ( :puke: ) for example, a "church" that definitely does NOT serve this community.

I started out on my own personal poverty crusade by handing out sandwiches on Lower Wacker Dr. decades ago. PB&J was all I could afford, and even then, I could only spare 5 or 6 on any weekend. But it felt good to help on even this small level.

Start small. Get involved in your own community efforts. I am truly upset that Edwards has been run out of this race. He was the candidate that truly cared for small "D" democratic values. Keep your chin up and keep fighting for those who can't. You can make a difference.

[bobbolink]

111. Dupage.... "Where there is plenty, poverty is evil" Bobby Kennedy

I live in one of those "upscale" messes, and I want to wear a shirt with that on it!

Just to bedevil people!

:evilgrin: :hi:

[Two Americas]

107. charity is good

Charity is good, but mobilizing people to fight back is better.

"Give a person a fish and they will eat or a day, teach them to fish and they will eat for a lifetime."

Resistance to the bullies at all levels of society, in our daily lives, and organizing those suffering at the hands of the bullies - that is the solution. In the days of the civil rights and labor struggles we didn't wait for a leader to show up or yearn for a savior. A dozen people in a basement - nobodies - put plans together and made it happen.

Often when people say "what can we do?" they are leaving off an unspoken second half of that statement. They mean what can we do given that we are not going to get serious and fight back?"

We can't honor nicey-nice suburban tea party propriety and decorum and fight for the people at the same time. We can't play it safe when the opposition if going for the jugular.

Political problems require political solutions. It is a waste of time to argue about which candidates' political solutions are best, since none of them are even political solutions at all. They are solutions to the problem the candidate has of "how do I get elected and gain power?" Most of the answer to that question is "cater to the needs of the wealthy and powerful to get money and to be a player in the game." What we here are doing is questioning the game itself, not the players or factions within the game.

Notice that the anti-Edwards people assume that this is what Edwards was doing - pandering to poor people to get votes to promote his own career. After all, isn't that what they all do? is the unspoken assumption. That is of course absurd, because if all you wanted to do was to get elected and feather your own nest poor people would be the LAST people you would pander to.

Edwards may be naïve, but he is sincere.

[FreepFryer]

12. Ja...

Ja und leider unsere Nazi Partei nicht ist das third-Partei gleichmäßig..., das es den Vorsitz ergriffen hat.

"Yes, and unfortunately our Nazi Party isn't the third-party... they have seized the White House."

[screembloodymurder]

13. Yes, we are.

W/O a doubt, we are living under a fascist regime supported by a propaganda machine and we are doing nothing to fight it. Supporting the current batch of Democratic candidates is the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand.

[smokey nj]

17. K&R!!!!

[bobbolink]

24. .

:loveya:, smokey!

[smokey nj]

26. Back atcha, Bobbie!!

:pals:

[kineneb]

18. where is our Jacob Riis? Kaethe Kollwitz?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Riis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Käthe_Kollwitz
(use google to get the proper link)

We do not need politicans, we need artists and photographers. Document the pain and poverty, and bring it to the public. As long as the poor are invisible, nothing will be done. If words do not work, and the popular media ignores the problem, then alternative methods must be used.

While most of the TheoCons seem to be lacking in shame, there are powerful people in this country who do have a conscience. We need to shame them into action.

[Bucky]

31. Thank you for the reminder... "Germans" is not an acceptable euphemism for fascist enablers anymore

The fact is that the German people stood up against Bush's idiotic war machine while the majority of americans allowed their country to be snookered into war. Bush is no Hitler, of course, but I'm pretty sure Americans at least have lost the right to use another nationality as a code word for "suckers". Certainly the Germans have been a close to model nation for good world citizens for the past two generations... and before then gave us some great humanitarians like Riis, Goethe, and all the people who died resisting Hitler.

[wake.up.america]

127. Sehr schön geschrieben.

[cynthia]

142. I think of Michael Moore as our man

And I'm sure there are other filmmakers out there who are trying; others have written books, letters to the editor.

For the past decade we have been ruled by fear.


Thank you for this post.

[angrycarpenter]

20. too many think that to combat poverty

Most will have to give up some of what they have worked for. That is so if all they intend to do is throw money at the problem as usual. There is no magic bullet for poverty. Solving it will require dedication from all segments of society. The problem is that the rich see the poor as lazy stupid people who watch soaps all day waiting for a check to come to the mailbox.

As long as the poor are seen as somehow deserving of their plight there will be no progress. Just go to a forum where conservatives post and say anything about helping the poor. What follows will turn your blood cold. Talk of forced labor camps to send the poor to, forced sterilization, forced abortion to avoid welfare. The only difference between then and now is the language that in which the hate is spoken.

[bobbolink]

22. "Solving" racism wasn't easy either, and demanded big changes, and sacrifices from

other segments of society.

We've become so focused only on ourselves, that we can't see the trees anymore...

"The only difference between then and now is the language that in which the hate is spoken."

You pegged it! And, just as the Good Germans couldn't see what they were doing, neither can we....

:cry:

[angrycarpenter]

32. The american soldiers

brought the people from the local towns and forced them to tour the camps and dig graves. Is there a way that poverty can be shoved into the faces of the rich and make them understand that all parts of our economy contribute to the mess and need to be changed to more equitable system instead of the idea that to truly win there must be a loser.

[bobbolink]

33. I LOVE that!

OK, not really good to think about "shoving peoples' faces in it", but.., yes, I think you're on the right track!

Our media isn't doing that job for us, so yes, we need to come up with some creative and strategic ways to get this attention.

Can we all please discuss this, and brainstorm?

I think angrycarpenter is onto something here!

:hi:

[angrycarpenter]

40. Instead of stormtroopers they have lawyers

The ultimate defense. The trouble with taking any action against the 1% is that they can sue anyone into poverty.

[Andrea]

70. I like this idea

One way to do this, which will only help with a few people, but it's a start: could we write to Judges in our own jurisdictions and suggest that when people are sentenced to community service, especially wealthy people, that instead of picking up trash beside the highway they are sent to serve food in soup kitchens or scrub floors in homeless shelters, or provide (supervised) childcare so poor people can go to school or work?

[iris5426]

135. That is a great idea!

How do we even begin to implement it though? I love the image of the yuppie housewives from around here scrubbing a floor in a shelter they didn't even know was there...it's exactly what they need!

[Andrea]

157. I'm not sure

Maybe viral marketing. We need a succinct statement and an effort to start spreading the message. From one person to the next, some people tell three or four people, like a pyramid it grows.

[skater314159]

114. Are you saying racism was solved? n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

21. Sportdatroops

Gotta sportdatroops. Cant 'tagonize da bigots. Gotta sportdatroops.

Hey I kind of knew we were fucked shortly after ninelem when every idiot and his mother had a huge freaking flag on their gas guzzler. Then again I kind of knew we were fucked back in '67 when what we were actually doing in vietnam finally dawned on my teeny-bopper brain. Then we had a revolution gotta revolution. Or not. But we were going to all mellow out in a green america so relax dude. Or get all agitated and bullshit media hyped up by America Held Hostage day 267 and its a new day in murka with that fuggin reagan. And green? Fuck that I'm going to buy me an SUV. Just say no. Lock up all those bad drug users (the darker ones) and get the death machine working overtime and what a fabulous media event war without any nasty in the jungle close up stinky death nonsense damn we crushed Grenada and Panama and that Saddam. The Serbs weren't quite such an easy mark, but we slogged through that without too much trouble and the friggen Russians just melted away into the dust of history, which ended anyhow. And money was easy and houses were Big Ass just like SUVs. Yeah and now we are the bad germans again, only it turns out that we have been fucking with the entire planet on a major case basis pretty much nonstop since Chile - fucking nations over in a deep and profound way that goes way beyond the nasty shit we were up to in Vietnam. Major World Class Screwage, deep long lasting and very effective screwage. Oh we are the Germans alright, only the Germans had a run at being the Germans for a mere 12 years. The metaphor is an insult to Germans. Our long running planetary pillage and perverted policy-backed-by-force has been on-going now for at least 35 years. And there is no end in sight. If you think that corporatism has stolen our republic out from under us, which indeed it has, consider how the rest of the world must view us.

Sorry. Rant off. Read Shock Doctrine. Peace.

[bobbolink]

23. Actually, I'm not writing about the war. POVERTY is invisible, because all "libruls" can see is

the friggin' war.

There ARE other issues.

And people are dying, while invisible...

:cry:

[Warren Stupidity]

25. Read Shock Doctrine

I'm not writing about the war either. The 'war' isn't even a war, it was a deliberate deconstruction of Iraqi society through a combination of military force and policy malfeasance. It is all about 'opening up markets', in this case the middle east, to the pillage and plunder we have forced onto eastern europe, latin america, and asia. It is the Washington Consensus, policy prototyped in Chile and now deployed all around the planet, including right here at home. For example, New Orleans. It is all one issue, there is no separation between what is and has happened to us here and what is and has happened to nations all over the planet.

[bobbolink]

27. One last time... I'm writing about POVERTY right here in the US.

If you can contribute to that, fine.

If not, please take your other stuff to other threads.

Thank you.

[Warren Stupidity]

37. That you think there is a separation is an example of why we are

not getting anywhere. There is a direct connection from Baghdad to New Orleans. There is no difference between the poverty in either of those cities other than it is worse in Baghdad. We are in fact one planetary civilization.

Oh and sorry, but you don't get to control who can post in a thread. We tried that experiment here on DU and it was rather nasty.

[Junkdrawer]

38. Quote- Dwight Eisenhower

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its labourers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."

[redqueen]

46. Exactly.

Can't help the poor... we've got wars to fight!

x(

[bobbolink]

50. Yes, I asked them very nicely, but .... got more war stuff.

Poor folk can just wait.

:nuke:

[redqueen]

53. I wish I hadn't thought to check

whether or not the last two standing mentioned poverty last night... at least they mentioned it when they talked about John, I guess.

such a depressing day... nobody wants to hear it... it only 'turns people off'... can't get elected talking about the poor...

:(

[ChazII]

85. As an individual

I do what I can. I am involved with two churches and BOTH have food pantries. These pantries are not just for the parish but for the community. We get folks from all over the valley area. Besides giving out food boxes, we also give bus passes and money to help pay bills. No preaching or teaching or Bible sermon/talk at all. Only helping the way we should. We won't end the war but we are fighting the battle. Sorry for the cliche's but I have a migrane and can't write well at the moment.

[Junkdrawer]

35. Poverty and obscene war spending are directly related...

in many, many ways.

Always has been. Remember Johnson's War on Poverty? Vietnam put an end to that...

[Two Americas]

49. yes

Of course there is a relationship. But the anti-war movement is off the mark. It is a way to avoid facing the root problem, and to maintain the class structure here. What makes it a war in Iraq, and what makes Iraq different then the U.S., is that people there are fighting back. Eliminating that doesn't solve anything other than letting upscale liberals feel smug and congratulate themselves on having accomplished something, and they can go back to "gradual progress" while never putting themselves at any risk and never fighting against the system that produces what is happening in Iraq.

Attack injustice right here under our noses and that will put an end to the foreign adventures fought on behalf of Wall Street. Dress up in pink tiaras and "speak truth to power" and all we will accomplish is an empire that is less ugly and more palatable to the upscale "caring" people, while we neglect the battle right here at home.

[Junkdrawer]

65. I see it a bit differently...

There was a time when Democrats and Big Labor fought a pretty good fight to spread the benefits of industry to the poor and lower middle classes in this country. But there was an unspoken agreement with Republicans to turn a blind eye to our oppression of the poor in other countries.

And, as it turned out, that was a fatal error. Unions weren't so much busted as they were made irrelevant as job after job was shipped overseas to those very same areas that the Imperialists had made safe for business. And the money that might otherwise be used to fight poverty is now used to stake out the world's remaining oil. And guess who will never be given a share of those profits?

[bobbolink]

92. Even more, it's used as one more way to detract from poverty!

By continuuing to bring up war everytime poverty is mentioned, we get shoved farther and farther out of view!

NOBODY would even THINK of doing that with the gay rights movement, yet we poor folk can keep getting not only shoved to the back of the bus, but thrown UNDER THE DAMNED BUS!

[skater314159]

146. How does it distract from poverty?

Why are you a single-issue individual? Can you not see the BIG PICTURE?

[skater314159]

116. Oh? So the soldiers' deaths don't matter? n/t

[Two Americas]

133. of course not

No one said that, and your post is needlessly inflammatory and provocative.

The soldiers dying in Iraq, and the poor and downtrodden here are the same people.

The "war" - and it is not a "war," it is an illegal occupation, and calling it a "war" is the right wing framing on the issue - is but one manifestation of the class warfare being waged against the people here and around the world.

[skater314159]

144. You aren't Bobolink, I was asking HER. Not you.

And I am just addressing what SHE said in the post I replied to.

You aren't bobolink, so I'm not going to respond to you.

Can bobolink not answer me herself? If she has problems being responsible for what she says - especially about our troops who have died, maybe she should stop posting on this board. But that would fit her pattern of behaviour where she only wants to discuss "poverty" as long as the conversation centers on her.

I don't take suggestions that what is happening in Iraq is something to ignore, and that the deaths of US soldiers don't matter - especially if that person likes to crow about her "compassion". As far as I can tell - from the posts on this thread and elsewhere, bobolink's "compassion" is as deep as George Bush's "compassionate conservatism".

If bobolink has me on ignore, maybe you can tell her that. Otherwise, you are welcome to put me on ignore too. I won't miss "dialoguing" with you.

[Two Americas]

148. well excuse me

Why on earth are you being so nasty?

Your question about the war, and the relationship to poverty has been thoroughly answered in the thread. Disagree if you like, but I would ask you to stop mischaracterizing the views of others and saying that we don't care about the war or about the deaths of soldiers. That is a false and very ugly charge.

I'll post where I choose to post.

[skater314159]

149. You are excused.

"thoroughly answered"?

WHERE was it thoroughly answered? It was repeatedly dismissed by you and bobolink.

Neither of you discussed the war, instead, bobolink in post #27 said she is not discussing the war. Then she told us to go somewhere else - how ironic you state "I'll post where I choose to post" when you support someone who told us to leave because we weren't gushing over her and praising her. Hypocrite.

What was written in #27 is not an answer, it is ignoring what was being stated because it didn't fit boblink's agenda - which is to cry "poor me" and cloak her need for attention in the guise of talking about "poverty".

Ignoring something isn't addressing it, or answering it... but I guess the only thing you notice people ignoring is "poverty" and yourselves.

[Two Americas]

52. disagree

I refuse to blame the people. I think this is our fatal error.

[skater314159]

145. ...

.
Clicked respond on wrong posting.

[iris5426]

134. Excellent rant...reads like spoken word too

love the message and the delivery

:yourock:

[glowing]

29. I hear you..I thought of YOU first when he gave up.. and I wallowed

in some pity and I thought of the crap happening in my area, where the mayor and his thug police squad had the audacity to slash tents of homeless people..

Its time for us all the step up to the plate.. I'm going to do what I can do under "non-profit" to make this issue never go away.. Hell, I'm about 3 paychecks from being on the streets myself.. Well, it would take about 6 mo. to get me out if I foreclosed..

[saracat]

34. I am sorry Bobbie. I don't know. It seems they care only about a competition

between race and gender.This isn't an election.It is an American Idol type smackdown. Issues don't matter. I gave a surrogate speech for Edwards to a group of wealthy Dems and when I spoke about poverty or even the middle class and the coming economic problems, they just glazed over.When I talked about the Debate smackdown, I got them back.Many people just can't relate and don't want to.Why is John, during his last appearance as a candidate, still the ONLY candidate stressing NOLA? The "black candidate " isn't interested. Nor is the woman.
We are heading for a depression and many more Americans will be joining the ranks of the poor.Maybe then,if they are not beyond caring, something ?might' be done. I do not have much faith in our corporate candidates.We will have to dig ourselves out of this alone I am afraid. Just my opinion, for what its worth.

[smokey nj]

58. Couldn't agree with you more, saracat.

[Andrea]

73. right, Sara

When that depression hits a lot of people will WISH they had John Edwards in the White House. They'll regret going along with the drive for an American Idol presidency. I love what you wrote, "This isn't an election. It's an American Idol type smackdown." Hitting the nail on the head, for sure!

[iris5426]

136. Agreed.

When more people are living in poverty because we didn't elect the man who was trying to do something about poverty, they'll wish they had supported him...

[Two Americas]

36. one person

One lone courageous voice. For months and months I lurked here, and over the months I watched bobbolink battle and battle, speaking for the suffering, for the forgotten, the abused and the neglected. I watched people express the most cruel and callous things in response, and too few people defended that one lone voice. That is what finally inspired me to join and start posting.

One person speaking for those who cannot speak for themselves, and we marginalize, abuse, taunt and ridicule that person in response.

One voice in the wilderness. Shame on us. Who here can doubt that bobbolink speaks for millions who do not have a voice? If we turn away from this cause now, that one lone voice will haunt our nightmares forever.

[redqueen]

47. "that one lone voice will haunt our nightmares forever"

Well... we can hope.

I honestly think it might take a sizeable number of currently comfy people living in new Hoovervilles before we will see any progress at all.

[CorpGovActivist]

41. Someone got their mourning veil off to one side today.

And DU is a better place for it.

:hug:

- Dave

[leftofthedial]

42. Well, we've killed over a million Iraqis.

So I'd say, yes. We're Germans now.

[bobbolink]

43. Again, I'm not writing about the war. There are lots of threads about that.

This is about poverty, which is completely ignored right here in the US.

Please respond to poverty.

Thank you.

[leftofthedial]

48. Kucinich and Edwards are out of the race.

What more do you need to know?

The remaining candidates from all parties represent the other side in the class war. They are free-trade corporate oligopolists. Americans by and large care about whatever corporate media presents as an important topic. Why would corporations call attention to the most glaring examples of how they are destroying our country?

BTW--the war and poverty go hand in hand. The oligarchy wants poverty because they need cannon fodder. War breeds poverty because it transfers wealth to the oligarchy and bleeds it from the rest of us. Talking about the war IS talking about poverty.

[Two Americas]

56. avoiding the truth

Thinking that the party represents the opposition to the wealthy and powerful few and to their interests and desires - when we are not permitted to correctly identify the other side, nor to talk about where the battle lines are, and when any discussion of class warfare must be ruthlessly eliminated from the discussion within the party - is simply avoiding the truth, as is talking abut "the war." There is no war - we have an illegal occupation following an illegal invasion - and there is no effective opposition to the program and agenda of the people for whom the Republican party is a political agent.

[Warren Stupidity]

59. Perhaps you don't even understand the connotation of 'good german'?

And again, the poverty here is directly connected to the mess in Iraq.

[Two Americas]

63. yes and no

It could be, it should be, but in practical effect that is not the case. The "war" is used as a distraction - a safe place to hide from talking about class struggle.

If being anti-war means we are going to blame the people, if it means we are going to dishonor those in service, ridicule people's patriotism, then it is nothing more than a feud between one group of pampered aristocratic princes and another as to how best manage the empire. The anti-war movement is riddled with covert hostility toward blue collar people. Poor people know that it is a "rich man's war and a poor man's fight." In that they are far more insightful and radical than almost all anti-war people. That has nothing to so with their willingness to serve and make sacrifices for the country - "the country" meaning family, friends, and neighbors, not "the country" that too many liberal activists are talking about when they say "we" or "our country" or "the history of the country." Too many intellectuals on the left mean "the ruling class" when they say "we" or "the country," thereby betraying an unconscious identification with the ruling class. That does not go unnoticed by everyday people, and is a prime reason for liberalism and the Democratic party being rejected by them.

The connotation of "good German" is different in hindsight than it would have been at the time. Long before the good Germans went along with unspeakable atrocities, they had already rolled over. The good German phenomenon is what CAUSED war and atrocities, it was not a response to those, and long before the everyday people became good Germans, the intellectuals of the left - too many of them - had rolled over or failed to adequately see and fight the coming danger.

[Ninga]

51. yes we are. K&R

[balantz]

55. It sure looks that way to me, Bobbolink.

K&R
:hug:

[NastyRiffraff]

57. Open Letter to Senator Barack Obama and Senator Hillary Clinton

One of you will be the Democratic nominee. If we do it right, one of you will be the next President of the United States. That, as you know, gives enormous responsibility to all American people, as well as people all over the world.

I strongly supported John Edwards before he bowed out. I support him still, largely because of his concentration on finally doing something substantive to bring people out of poverty. That took a tremendous amount of courage; talking about the poor isn't a traditional vote-getter. But, as John said, it's immoral to be silent when thousands of people have no health care, when thousands of our veterans sleep under grates, when a mother must choose between heating her home and feeding her children.

So, now you want my vote. Here's what you need to do to earn it. Make good on the promise you made to John Edwards, and as he said, through him to the country. Make poverty a central issue in your campaign. Make it strong, and make it immediately. I don't mean mentioning it in passing while touting your ability to lead the country and "make us safe." I don't mean the old, tired platitudes. I'm talking about passion; the kind of passion that tells me you mean it; that you'll follow through; that you're angry that people in the richest country in the world don't have enough to eat, that many die...yes, die...from lack of health care.

Some say this is a losing issue because "poor people don't vote." Don't they? What about the thousands who were shut out of voting in Ohio because their precincts were understaffed and had too few voting machines? Some waited, in the cold rain, until 3:00 a.m. to vote. Do you think that happened in the well-to-do precincts? And for the homeless, there's a very good reason they don't vote: in many states they can't. Although all states allow people living in shelters to register to vote, many states require a mailing address to register. And two states (Louisiana and Virginia) don't allow people living on the streets to register at all. And only ten states have enacted a Homeless Voting Rights statute.

If you pledge to help people rise out of poverty, you'll have your voters, and so will the Democratic party of the future. We know Republicans won't do it. If you don't, who will?

I'll be watching. So will others who care about what John Edwards campaigned so hard for. One of you will get my vote in the general election. Who that will be, as far as I and others are concerned, depends on who best follows through on a promise.

------------------
I'll be sending this to both of them. Any suggestions?

[bobbolink]

97. Ohhhh, this is BEAUTIFUL! I've never felt so supported!

Please, would you be willing to make this a LTTE?

Would you be willing to send this to your county and state Dem offices?

Would you post this whereever you can think of?

I Want To See This Publicly!

I want this in front of every "liberal" nose!

:applause: :hug:

[NastyRiffraff]

118. Glad you liked it

I have sent this as an LTTE to two of my local papers, so far. Also, posted it in GD-P. And sent it to my state & local Dem offices.

It's a vital issue that deserves to be heard.

[zalinda]

60. There is a HUGE disconnect between the haves

and have nots. I could go into the gory details, but I won't. Let's just say my ex-husband was born into a rich family. After our divorce I moved to be close to his parents so they would be able to know their grandson, they were quite a bit older than my parents, so I thought I would be kind. What I didn't count on was the utter contempt that they held for me, and as I found out for my son also. They thought nothing of spending $500 to $1000 for the evening at the track in the owners area. Yet, she complained that my son had lied to her when she bought him a computer. He gave her a total that he got for the salesman, and when the salesman talked about up grading to a larger monitor, she gave her okay when my son asked. What he forgot to do was add in the sales tax, and at 12 years old it never occurred to him to ask about it. She punished him for that error every year on his birthday, by giving him only $50, until the day she died some 15 years later. Yard sales were pointed out to me, as I guess they thought I enjoyed shopping at them.

My ex-sister-in-law knew how much I got every month to live on, but couldn't stop herself from complaining about how her boyfriend crashed her brand new, cash paid for $25,000 boat into a pier and how it was going to cost $5,000 to pay for it. I thought, you bought a toy for what I live on for 2 years and you are complaining about fixing it? To me? Just rub more salt in my wounds.

Their take on money is really skewed. And, by the way, my son got absolutely nothing in the will, not even a keepsake. And how rich were they? The family sold one of their small companies a number of years ago for 250 million.

zalinda

[UncleSepp]

62. We're not there yet.

We're not different as people or as a people, but our situation is not there yet. We're not Weimar yet even.

Where are the Freikorps? Where are the gun battles between political gangs on the streets? Where are the greasepencil boards in the shops with the prices updated by the hour as the currency free-falls? What armed uprisings have there been in our cities? What ports have been seized by rebel political forces?

Yes, we have problems with poverty and hunger, and yes, they're getting worse. Food banks are suffering increased demand and reduced donations, with less staple goods coming in from the government and less from hard-pressed neighbors also. Affordable housing is in increasingly short supply, even as housing values stagnate and fall; safe and affordable housing with access to jobs is waitlisted to hell and gone. Hearts harden daily to the problems of the poor as prosperity theology, Calvinist rehashing, and plain old selfish selfrighteousness take over as acceptable ways to view the world; social Darwinism and eugenics have reentered the mainstream, modeling poor people as substandard, genetically inadequate candidates for sterilization. Enough lower middle class people believe that they are not richer because the poor are taking their money that those who should feel the most sympathy for the working poor feel the least. Yes, yes, YES it is a problem, absolutely.

But it's not Weimar, and it sure as hell isn't Nazi Germany. Yet.

I think you've got great points, and I think you're looking in the right direction. The time to sound a warning is BEFORE the disaster strikes, too, so I can see why you are making these correlations now. Moreover, I think your "good Germans" characterization will work for most people who aren't saturated with German history from '14 to '45. For me... eh, I think it's overdone. But I'm not most people. Appeals that work are appeals that work for most people, or at least most people in the target audience, so... it doesn't really matter all that much how accurate the comparison is, it only matters how accurate it seems for the people whose minds you want to change.

From my point of view, we're still in the teens, on toward the end of the Great War. We're being led by a jingoistic idiot, manipulated by his advisors, further and further into debt. When the time comes to pay this debt back, it won't be reparations ordered by treaty, but the effects will be the same. After this election, no matter who wins, if there is continued questioning of the methods used to select a President, it will become more likely that enough people no longer believe in democracy that they take their aggression from the message boards to the streets. Then, we'll be a bit closer.

If you think it's time, then maybe the Democratic Party isn't the place to be any more. Poor people in Weimar didn't just write letters to get the center-left parties to pay attention to them. Somebody's got to take the next step. Somebody will, whether you or me or people we don't know and haven't heard of. If you're ready to start something and throw down Weimar-style, let me know :-)

[Arugula Latte]

64. Related to this: Why do we permit people to die because they can't afford insurance/care?

We let corporations and the politicians who are bought by them stomp us into the ground. Many of us -- thousands upon thousands of us -- go bankrupt or become gravely ill or die because we allow the corporations to call the shots. It's not like that in other "civilized" countries. Why do we permit it, year after year?

[Yael]

67. Because they own us

We have no voice in a position of power to stand up for us.

Pelosi, Reid & Co. rely to heavily on the corporate coffers to keep their re-election bids going (I don't know about you, but I would HATE to have my job on the line every 4-6 years).

The system is gamed and it is ginned up from the hilt to protect the interests of the corporations and ignore the interests of the people they are supposed to REPRESENT.

Sitting down with these Corps and making nice is not going to change a thing. They are not willingly going to give up an ounce.

Look at the trap Hillary and Bill fell into with healthcare in the 1993-4 years. They decided to allow Big Insurance and Big Pharma to open the checkbooks and "have a seat at the table" and what do you know -- they lost ALL leverage as they were then owned (no slight in part to Gingrich's Contract with America) -- but they had a chance to stand firm and they cashed in instead. (Not saying anything against her current campaign -- just noting history).

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it -- and these corporations are infinitely more powerful and entrenched today than they were 15 years ago.

Last I heard, 36,000 lobbyists now run K-street.

[Echo In Light]

66. "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible" - Voltaire

[waiting for hope]

72. We have become a party of

sheeple, looking for that instant "ME" gratification and we have lost our way. I hear you loud and clear - Sapphire Blue was another here that championed for those who were targets of ignorance:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Sapphire%20Blue

She hasn't posted since Oct 2007, I had heard she had a terminal illness so please forgive me because I let that one slip by. But seeing these words as I type, I cringe at myself and know that Edwards would feel shame. We all get so wrapped up in our day to day lives, for those of us lucky enough, we go to work (usually at a job we can't stand) and if you have children, tending to all the things that are kids, and after that - well, for me it's been here and on Kos, trying to get John's message out. Sometimes it becomes someone else's problem and that apathy is what has gotten us into this horrid mess we are in. I do what I can, I donate at every possible turn, knowing that my family is two to three paychecks away from being in a deep hole. I have always believed that what goes around, comes around and I have seen it happen. If I could do more, I would.

bobbolink - keep these posts coming, like MLK, this issue has to become an IN YOUR FACE situation, sooner or later, a bobbing head in DC is going to notice and try to get the ball rolling. I stand by you, and thank you for the reminder, We are our brother's keeper, for if not, no one will keep us.


Side note: There were two really good Diaries over at Kos that I think you may like:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/31/181150/118

and this one:

We are Edwards supporters because of John's message, his positions on the issues, and knowing that he speaks for us. No one else fits that description, do they?

With the remaining two Democratic candidates in the race we find no relief, they are beholden to corporations and lobbyists, anyone can see this on OpenSecrets.

Along with the above, Obama and Clinton are in for a very tough time against McCain, and Nader entering the race makes a good case for a repeat of 2000, pulling enough dissatisfied Dems' votes and handing the Repubs the victory. We may be hosed, well and truly hosed.

Since Washington is run by lobbyists, why don't we, Edwards supporters and Americans who have no voice, hire our own lobbyist? How about we hire John Edwards to be our voice in Washington?

If John were interested, we could do this. We could team up, form whatever legal type of group we needed to, establish what minimum donation from each of us would suffice to get things rolling, and get to work.

We don't have to take the status quo lying down! We can act!

I want my voice heard, dammit. I don't want to feel I have to pick less than the best knowing that one of the remaining candidates in no way speaks for me and the other hasn't yet said enough to convince me.

If John is interested we already have a website, email addresses, and a lot of people with wonderful talents in so many areas.

What do you think? Share your ideas.

Let's continue the movement together!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/31/133150/509

nannyboz is my OneCorps captain, and she really rocks!



:bounce: :thumbsup: :dem: :hi: :loveya:

[mark_bruns74]

75. im only half german

the other half is cuban-american

[wake.up.america]

98. Du kannst Deutsch y puedes hablar espanol tambien. Right?

[skater314159]

115. Ja und si! n/t

[wake.up.america]

126. So ist es bei mir. Mein Englisch könnte wesentlich besser sein. Es una cosa de practica.

[Beaverhausen]

76. Seeing the condition of the homes in NO where Edwards made his speech made me feel ashamed

How is it we continue to allow this to happen to our brothers and sisters? Shame on us.

[varelse]

77. Your support of Edwards

was what finally swayed me to forget all of the snide remarks about his lack of sincerity, his haircut, his 'mansion' and take another look at this candidate. You speak from experience and I trusted in that. As a Kucinich supporter, it was hard to vote for another candidate in the primary, but I finally did cast my vote for John. And I donated too.

Thank you for speaking out with relentless honesty about the American condition, and refusing to give up the fight.

[L. Coyote]

79. We were Germans when the Ohio Company invaded the Indian Nations

A nation built on genocide and a century of war on Native Peoples.

[Enthusiast]

87. And now, we are the new Indians. nt

[Donk Yore]

80. yes

ja und mehr als das. wir sind Dummköpfe ohne das Recht, unsere Hypokrisie zu anderen zu verbreiten.

[peacock]

84. Vote for JRE!

JRE is still on most of the ballots, if not all. Admittedly, some State Democratic Parties have said they will not seat delegates for JRE even if he wins delegates. Well, then we have to go to the DNC and at any rate, I don´t think that Clinton or Obama represent a choice for me. I am for JRE and will vote for him. I will vote for Clinton or Obama in the GE but my voice will appear in the TX primary as a vote for JRE.

[dajoki]

86. bobbolink...

Your elogant words have again hit home with the many of us who are in the same boat. Thank you for the enlightening post.

K&R:pals:

[bobbolink]

95. I'm proud to share my boat, however leaky it may be, with you, dear dajoki!

Your words are so important to me!

:hug: :loveya:

[Deja Q]

88. So where's Hitler building our economy?

That's the difference.

Using the "good German" argument is utter bullshit in the first place; never mind there's no real parallel to use.

[Two Americas]

119. that is false

Hitler didn't build the German economy, he looted it. The arms industry propsered, yes.

Howard K. Smith's "Last Train from Berlin" is a good source on this and a compelling read.

Hitler made the people feel hope, gave them slogans and parades and empty rhetoric. The economy was a hollow shell and the finances were all smoke and mirrors. He made people willing to accept poverty because he offered them false hope and made themn feel good about themselves.

[wake.up.america]

89. This is the best post I have ever seen on a forum. This is what it means to be alive and

caring.

From what I have seen, America leaves much to be desired. So much wealth, yet so many sleeping in the cold. Makes me want to cry. Instead of striving to be rich, strive to have enough and help others. It will make you feel better and besides you will have more time to do what you really want to do.

[NOLALady]

90. We were Germans

when we enslaved the Africans as Hitler enslaved millions.

[Leopolds Ghost]

91. K&R. Thanks Bobbolink.

[Dawggie]

93. And yet another rec for a brilliant post.

thanks for taking the time to write this.

[bobbolink]

94. Aw, thanks, Dawggie! I'm so grateful for all the recs!

This was hard to write, and left me feeling quite exposed.

I appreciate this more than you know!

:hug:

[Dawggie]

96. I know how hard it is to write like you did in your OP...

And am so happy that it has been received the way it has.

Keep on keeping on!

[bpeale]

99. you know, when i was in germany i said the same thing

how could this happen? but in touring the concentration camps i realized that THEY KNEW! there is no way they didn't know. if they say they didn't then they are lieing. one of the concentration camps i toured was Dacchau. it was right in the center of town. now imagine ashes falling all over the town. and the smell. those who say they didn't know are liars. they knew. and there is no way they didn't know.

[Karenina]

101. Some knew. Some were in deep denial

JUST LIKE AMERICANS ARE NOW.

[Two Americas]

105. authoritarianism and bullying

Authoritarianism and bullying have permeated every aspect of our society at every level. This dominates and corrupts all of our relationships - boss-employee, landlord-tenant, party leaders-grass roots volunteers, police-citizen, and percolates up from the bottom and causes increasing authoritarianism in our leaders.

When the disgusting and shocking details were revealed about Mark Penn, the reaction of many people here was "good! Now we have our own 'Rove!'" The bully is admired, embraced, emulated.

Too many liberals and Democratic party activists say in effect "our bullies and authorities are better than their bullies and authorities!" Most of the voting public is torn trying to decide which gang of bullies is worse, so they can vote against them.

[Two Americas]

106. by the way Karenina

My post wasn't in direct response to what you said. I have admired your posts for a long time here. I especially appreciate your posts on the too-often overlooked and neglected subject of racism.

[Karenina]

132. Thank you, Two Americas

and Welcome to DU! :toast:

[lebkuchen]

100. The Germans I speak to think the US has reached that point, yes.

Our workplaces on base have become very jingoistic under Bush, with everyone expected to wear their patriotism on their sleeve or else get the hell out. Germans see that Americans are being fed the same chauvanistic tripe they were force-fed in the 30's and 40's, especially the pressure there was, and is now, on not questioning the actions of the government but rather driving on as any "true patriot" would because "the government knows best."

[helderheid]

103. K&R

[theredpen]

117. IBTL!

This discussion STARTED with a Nazi reference. You just can't get any better than that.

Trading on the suffering of European Jews under the Nazis. Classy.

[G_j]

120. Poverty? no votes there, no money there

simple as that

**great to see you again my dear friend!!

:hug:

[bobbolink]

122. So, I guess I should just heave myself off the nearest cliff....

:cry:

[G_j]

123. no!!

well.. maybe I'll join ya..
getting evicted,
car died..
:cry:

[bobbolink]

128. I wasn't saying that lightly. EVERY homeless person I've spoken with at length has said

they just wanted to die. Came close.

Last night I met another woman who is going through unbelievable stuff, and was homeless a while back. I brought this up, and without hesitation, she said, "Of course, when there's nothing left to go on for, what the hell?"

Yet, we get pushed aside and ignored because there's "no money" in us.

THEN, we're called mentally ill if we want to die.

:crazy:

[G_j]

I don't

I sorta, kinda joke about my own situation because it scares the hell out of me, and I don't know what else to do..

[bobbolink]

173. I understand, G_j! I really do, and I'm so sorry that you are living in fear.

You don't deserve that, by a long shot, and it makes me angry all over again what is happening to make USians so inhumane!

Please accept a :hug:

You are one of a kind, and are so very valuable to us all!

Please don't be a stranger!

:yourock: :hug:

[theredpen]

124. If you could have anything...

...what would relieve you of the desire to "heave yourself off the nearest cliff."

[Two Americas]

137. hope bobbolink doesn't mind...

I am going to answer this. I think boobolink would agree with me, but I am speaking for myself.

The point of posting strong personal testimony is not to talk about ourselves as individuals nor to get people to feel sorry for us.

We are talking about the plight of all of the homeless, the forgotten and left behind - millions of people. If it were just about us as individuals, there would be no purpose in posting. The purpose of posting is to make the situation real and immediate for people, to get people to look at the bigger picture. When the canary in the coal mine gets sick, the point is not that we might lose one canary. The point is that we are all at risk.

So what would relieve me of the desire to heave myself off the nearest cliff?

When all human beings have a chance, when compassion is valued once again more than selfishness, when we once again place people over profits, human beings over material wealth, labor over capital, when we once again measure the success of the society by the well-being of the least fortunate among us - when we return to the traditional principles and ideals of the Democratic party and fight for those without hesitation or ambiguity.

The point is not that bobbolink is in trouble - it is that we are all in trouble. Those who have a roof over their heads may not be in immediate physical danger - yet - but we are all in great moral and spiritual danger. Our very spirits are being corroded and corrupted. I would rather go without food than to go without moral integrity. I would rather die with my boots on tomorrow than to cringe and cower and stay silent.

I will gladly go to the end of the line and be the last person to get health care, housing, a living wage - just so long as we are committed to taking care of the suffering and downtrodden people among us.

Don't paternalistically pity the unfortunate. We should pity ourselves for what we have become - all of us.

[bobbolink]

140. I'm so filled with gratitude for your heart! I"m so glad you answered for me!

There are posts I "don't see", and with good reason. I got tired of the heartless barbs, the snooty looking down their golden noses at me. If that's democracy, I can do without....

Of course, I hope that people will care about me, too. I'm human, and I need to be included, I need to be cared about, I need to be loved, for goddess' sake. But, you're right.... I keep posting these things so that "libruls" will REMEMBER WHO they're leaving behind, and also that history is in our face, if we are willing to look.

Martin Luther King tried and tried to get us to understand that we are ALL in this together, just as you say. Those who are without a place to lay their heads are our brothers and sisters, our mothers and fathers, our sons and daughters. How can we not care?

I posted this particular thread because my biggest confusion is... I don't understand HOW people can turn their backs! If *I* saw someone living in their car in the cold, *I* would want to do something, not just turn away.

If *I* saw someone without enough to eat, *I'd* want to make sure they had a full belly of nutritious food!

I just don't understand at all, the process of turning away. The only way I can conceptualize it is by remembering the Good Germans, and how they allowed the suffering to continue!

Here we are, voting for the leader of the "free" world, and we can't even make poverty a subject of conversaton???

Who ARE we, as Michael Moore asks....?

[theredpen]

143. Words are cheap, particularly these words

You wrote:

I am going to answer this. I think boobolink would agree with me, but I am speaking for myself.
...
So what would relieve me of the desire to heave myself off the nearest cliff?

When all human beings have a chance, when compassion is valued once again more than selfishness, when we once again place people over profits, human beings over material wealth, labor over capital, when we once again measure the success of the society by the well-being of the least fortunate among us - when we return to the traditional principles and ideals of the Democratic party and fight for those without hesitation or ambiguity.

What kind of compassion ends at our borders? What kind of compassion doesn't extend to people dying needlessly in war? What kind of campaign to raise awareness snubs those who are aware simply because they don't praise the campaigner?

bobolink writes:

Actually, I'm not writing about the war. POVERTY is invisible, because all "libruls" can see is the friggin' war.

Do the deaths of soldiers and Iraqis matter or not?

One last time... I'm writing about POVERTY right here in the US.

Don't the poor outside the US matter? The poor in this country are still waaaaay better off than the average person in Malawi. That's a fact. What kind of compassion ignores that fact? Does compassion only apply to white Americans?

This is about poverty, which is completely ignored right here in the US.

This is simply bullshit. I spent all morning yesterday planting vegetables for the sole purpose of giving them to hungry families. I was joined by dozens of people who were also doing what they could when they could to make a difference. Poverty isn't "completely ignored."

Let me ask you: what have you done for poverty other than to praise bobolink for posting about it tirelessly? bobolink always has kind words for people who lavish praise on him/her, but not so much for people who are actually doing something about poverty. Go to the poverty forum and read my one and only exchange with bobolink to see what kind of "heartless barbs, the snooty looking down their golden noses at me" came from me.

I'm glad you've appointed yourself bobolink's press secretary. Maybe you can answer the questions I've posed above.

P.S. It's pretty ironic that bobolink complains about being ignored and invisible when his/her ignore list is so large.

[Two Americas]

147. pretty ugly

I have no idea why you are so hostile.

[theredpen]

150. Read...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=230&topic_id=1725

...and tell me what exactly I said wrong in this thread. What did I say that earned me a scathing PM and a spot on bobolink's ignore list. I really want to know and I'd love it if you could explain it to me, as bobolink apparently feels entitled to be nasty to whomever without the need to explain himself/herself.

So, are you going to answer the questions I asked or are you going to play passive aggressive games and try to make this discussion about why I'm a bad person? The discussion I am trying to have (politely, I might add) is what does and does not qualify as genuine compassion. If you want to shift the focus to personal attacks, I have an ignore list too.

[Two Americas]

156. answers

What kind of compassion ends at our borders?

I didn't see anyone say that it does. I would say that compassion begins right here, and I would also say that compassion outside of the borders is directly related and an effect of how compassionate this society is within its borders.

What kind of compassion doesn't extend to people dying needlessly in war?

I do not believe that anyone here does not have compassion for those dying in war. Asking us to focus on the suffering here doesn’t mean we are being asked to have no compassion for the suffering elsewhere.

What kind of campaign to raise awareness snubs those who are aware simply because they don't praise the campaigner?

You are the one mentioning your “cred” on poverty. No one else is looking for credit for themselves that I have seen.

Do the deaths of soldiers and Iraqis matter or not?

Of course they matter. By continuing to ask this question, you are slyly implying that for some here they do not.

Don't the poor outside the US matter?

You taunted me to answer your questions. Yet you are asking the same question over and over again, and doing a so in a way that is not sincere. The questions are leading and provocative, and are actually statements disguised as questions. That is a form of bullying.

The poor in this country are still waaaaay better off than the average person in Malawi. That's a fact. What kind of compassion ignores that fact? Does compassion only apply to white Americans?

Now you disingenuously introduce race into the discussion. Comparing which poor people are worse off is disgusting. The way you are talking about poor people is as though they were pets, or extras in your drama of you, the great helper. The poor here, and the poor abroad, are suffering at the hands of the same forces, for the benefit of the same wealthy and powerful people. The aggression against the poor both here and abroad is supported by the very attitudes you are expressing here. This is not about paternalistically having compassion for “them” this is about the forces that oppress and impoverish people and how best to fight them.

This is simply bullshit. I spent all morning yesterday planting vegetables for the sole purpose of giving them to hungry families. I was joined by dozens of people who were also doing what they could when they could to make a difference. Poverty isn't "completely ignored."

Good for you. That is good that yoiu contribute back. But it is not about you. Since you think it should be, you projected that onto bobolink and assumed that it must be an ego battle as to who was “better” on caring for the poor. That is an aristocratic attitude on your part, and very self-centered. I would much rather have a person with compassion who did not bestow a few alms on the less fortunate, than to have a person give alms yet have a dismissive and self-righteous attitude about it.

Let me ask you: what have you done for poverty other than to praise bobolink for posting about it tirelessly? bobolink always has kind words for people who lavish praise on him/her, but not so much for people who are actually doing something about poverty. Go to the poverty forum and read my one and only exchange with bobbolink to see what kind of "heartless barbs, the snooty looking down their golden noses at me" came from me.

Bragging about your own efforts to fight poverty is a form of bullying, and is completely contrary to the spirit of compassion and justice that is needed to fight the forces that cause poverty. Challenging the “cred” of others is a subtle form of ad hominem attack — trying to discredit the messenger rather than responding to the message.

I looked at that thread. I found your posts to be lacking in consideration and compassion, and to be bullying and domineering.

[theredpen]

158. Responses

Of course they matter. By continuing to ask this question, you are slyly implying that for some here they do not.

I'm not implying it, I'm explicitly stating it. I believe that the person who said, "Actually, I'm not writing about the war. POVERTY is invisible, because all 'libruls' can see is the friggin' war," was clearly expressing disdain for those suffering from the war and those who care about them. Why the offensive misspelling of "liberals"? Why the scare-quotes? Why the muted cursing ("figgin'")? How do you think someone would feel who had a family member or other loved one facing death in Iraq? Perhaps we "libruls" who can only see "the friggin'" war should stop our bellyaching and start worry more about poverty because you said so.

Now you disingenuously introduce race into the discussion.

We are talking about a discussion that used German people as emblematic of evil, right? OK, just checking.

Comparing which poor people are worse off is disgusting.

Why? Because you say it is?

The poor here, and the poor abroad, are suffering at the hands of the same forces, for the benefit of the same wealthy and powerful people.

OK, this is just tinfoil hat territory. The roots of poverty from one conext to another are manifold and complicated. Reducing the problem to some vague struggle against B-movie corporate criminals reveals your understanding of the subject — and the level of actual engagement you have in it.

The aggression against the poor both here and abroad is supported by the very attitudes you are expressing here.

Right, and by calling for a withdrawal of troops from Iraq, I'm playing into Osama bin Laden's master plan. :tinfoilhat:

I would much rather have a person with compassion who did not bestow a few alms on the less fortunate, than to have a person give alms yet have a dismissive and self-righteous attitude about it.

Well, that makes it pretty clear that you have no personal experience with poverty. Believe me, starving people really don't care how big an asshole the person feeding them is. But if it makes you feel better, maybe I should stop my efforts and simply tell the people I'd be helping that Two Americas said they'd be better going hungry than dealing with my attitude. I'm sure they'd send you a big thank you note if they could afford thank you notes and postage.

Challenging the “cred” of others is a subtle form of ad hominem attack...

No it isn't. Challenging someone's credibility it a reasonable mechanism to discredit their position. That's debate — just because you know the words "ad hominem" doesn't change that. I strongly suspect that you are a self-hating ivory-tower intellectual white person and you think that defending bobolink from legitimate questions somehow makes you cool. Well, no.

But anyway, I promised I'd do something if you tried to turn this into a discussion of what a terrible person I am and not a discussion on the nature of compassion. Let's see...

... The questions are leading and provocative, and are actually statements disguised as questions. That is a form of bullying ... you projected ... ego battle as to who was “better” on caring for the poor. ... aristocratic ... very self-centered ... form of bullying ... completely contrary to the spirit of compassion and justice ... lacking in consideration and compassion ... be bullying and domineering.

Yep.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=manage_ignore
*plonk*

[Two Americas]

160. I made my case

I believe that I made my case. I don't expect to persuade you.

I don't know with whom you think you are arguing, but your speculations and suppositions about me could not be more off base, so it is not me you are arguing with.

I didn't say you were a terrible person. I said that your behavior is terrible. Since your posts and your behavior in this case are one and the same, I am not turning the discussion into anything I am recognizing it for what it is.

A note to the other embattled members here who are under assault from a handful of aggressive posters:

Resisting bullying is not the same as bullying, anymore than "reverse racism" exists, or anymore than slaves resisting the slave owners is the moral equivalent of the violence of slavery itself. It is an age old trick of upper class propaganda to portray those who are resisting tyranny as the aggressors.

[skater314159]

161. Talking about yourself?

"It is an age old trick of upper class propaganda to portray those who are resisting tyranny as the aggressors. "

From the mouths of suburban white women comes this? You've never lived poverty, and I am sickened by your hypocrisy. You don't know poverty, you've never lived it... you and bobolink were talking earlier about making up t-shirts with slogans and walking around to be in people's faces about it... you can't buy tshirts that are custom made with food-stamps or on the WIC programme. People in the ghettos aren't yuppies you can shock with t-shirt slogans about poverty - but you wouldn't know that as you've never *lived* in the projects.

If you lived in the projects, you would know that some people join the Army to have three squares, hope of an education, and an escape from the gang violence. The poverty cycle feeds our military with individuals who have no other hope of a better future. You may not have any friends or family who have had to make that choice, but some of us here DO. Your simplistic, ignorant assesments of poverty are not only so simple they make *'s theories look deep, they are an insult to the people you want to identify with and speak up for.

People in this thread (such as myself) HAVE lived poverty - and not because of our own personal choices - and we don't view it as a reason to play the martyr or dis soldiers and "libruls" as you and bobolink do. You may not be in an ivory tower, but you sure only have an academic or "imaginary" experience with poverty, as you don't LIVE it. Get out of the middle class and learn what its really about - then you can talk all you want honey.

[Two Americas]

164. lol

Amazing. I lived for decades in one of the poorest AA neighborhoods in Detroit. I am also not female. I have spent my entire life in impoverished neighborhoods all around the country. I have never had a white collar job.

The t-shirt arrangement was set up by another member and someone else volunteered to do the artwork. I don't think there is any upfront money involved in that online t-shirt site.

But please do go on bashing people.

You know, even if you can justify bashing people as you did here, it is still wrong.

[skater314159]

165. What about you and bobolink bashing?

Oh, that's right, you're both hypocrites so it doesn't matter. One set of standards for you two, and another for everyone who dares to disagree with you.

Which neighborhood? Did you actually interact with your neighbors? Why do you point out it was an "AA" neighbourhood? Do you think you can play the "race card" that you trashed earlier? Do you think saying you lived near blacks somehow increases your credibility? What about not having a white-collar-job makes you connected to actual people living in poverty?

I still think your statements show that you know nothing about poverty, and if these statements in post #164 are true, then you are just plain ignorant - because according to you, you've had ample opportunity to learn that poverty is a complex subject with no easy answers, but instead you cling to your delusional beliefs, trying to atone for your white guilt.

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[I work for workers]

125. I just finished reading Gen. Guderian's memoirs.

He was the German general credited with creating the blitzkrieg tactic, and commander of the Eastern front during the last few months of the war. He wasn't a Nazi or implicated in any war crimes, and was released from prison a few years after the war.

His take on Germany and Hitler in a nutshell: Hitler was very charismatic, and in the beginning was working towards goals that most Germans wanted (end of Versailles treaty, unification of Germans, military self determination). He inherited a weak government and cut off the self rule of the only group likely to remove him from power, the military, very early. By the time it had all gone wrong, it was too late for anyone to stop him, as the Nazi infrastructure was already in place over the people and the military was already preoccupied with a two front war.

[antigop]

131. I've been away for a few days and it was too late to recommend. Thank you for this post, bobbolink.

I've been thinking about you since Edwards dropped out.

I only hope that others pick up on his message.

[iris5426]

138. Beautiful post!

:kick:

[Plucketeer]

139. Kay'd again.

Real merit here.

[catchnrelease]

141. Kick n/t

[Greyhound]

151. We've all been good Germans for 3 decades now.

I remember being stupefied at the utter lack of any concern over what was happening in the 80s.

I had just became old enough to vote and was amazed that people, Americans, just didn't give a shit about their fellows.

That was the turning point for me. I realized that everything I believed and hoped for was nothing but propaganda. Then, I started looking at history and studying what we really were and what we really did, and learned that it was all just lies to keep us distracted and stupid.

America, as we were indoctrinated to believe in, only existed for 30 or 40 years at the beginning. Since then we have just been the profit center for the same assholes that have run the world for the last thousand years.

:kick: & R

[Rex]

159. No, George is still in the Whitehouse. He has to go to prison first

before writing his racist, hate filled screed and losing his mind in the process. Got a ways to go.

[otherlander]

162. I'm a German.

Kind of.

[G_j]

163. everyone should read this post

thank you, thank you, thank you,

[McHatin]

170. I'm half German

If that counts. And I heard that German is the largest nationality Americans identify themselves as in the Census.

[bdamomma]

172. kick and rec.