Dems Capitulate on FISA-George Bush gets everything he ever hoped for.

[kpete]

Dems Capitulate on FISA
By: Jane Hamsher Friday February 1, 2008 2:13 pm


Harry Reid once again used Senate procedure to tank retroactive immunity and other changes Democrats wanted to the FISA bill. George Bush gets everything he ever hoped for.

Glenn Greenwald:

The essence of the new agreement is that most of the amendments will be subject to a simple up-or-down vote -- if they get 50 votes, then they pass -- while several of the amendments will require 60 votes to pass (allowing, in essence, the Republicans to filibuster those amendments without actually having to go to the Senate floor and engage in a real filibuster).

...................

It seems rather clear what happened here. There are certain amendments that are not going to get even 50 votes -- including the Dodd/Feingold amendment to strip telecom immunity out of the bill -- and, for that reason, Republicans were more than willing to agree to a 50-vote threshold, since they know those amendments won't pass even in a simple up-or-down vote.

But then, there are other amendments which might be able to get 50 votes, but cannot get 60 votes -- such as Feinstein's amendment to transfer the telecom cases to the FISA court and her other amendment providing that FISA is the "exclusive means" for eavesdropping -- and, thus, those are the amendments for which the GOP insisted upon a 60-vote requirement.

The whole agreement seems designed to ensure that the GOP gets everything they want -- that they are able to defeat all of the pending amendments which Dick Cheney dislikes, and to do so without having to engage in a real filibuster. In what conceivable way is this an instance of "Dems not caving" or "holding tough?"
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/index.html

Dodd agreed to Unanimous Consent regarding the time limits to debate various amendments. Dodd will get up and talk about retroactive immunity, but this agreement limits what he can do to stop things from going forward. We're trying to get clarification, but the short version seems to be that at the end of the day there will be a cloture vote unless there are 40 senators willing to stand with him -- and there aren't.

We'll keep you posted on how it goes down, but it looks like the House is now driving this.

How this is anything other than utter capitulation to Mr. 25% JAR on Harry Reid's part is beyond me.

more at:
http://firedoglake.com/2008/02/01/dems-capitulate-on-fisa/#comments

[iris5426]

1. How utterly disgusting and discouraging. nt

[The Stranger]

2. Dem "leadership" caves again, but there is a DU thread smearing Ralph Nader right now in GD.

Ain't that somethin'?

[Ichingcarpenter]

4. I 'expect'

you are right.

Now, as I get another consecutive bootprint off my face
help me up so I can vote for the bootlickers.

[wtmusic]

10. Typical.

Ralph has more integrity in his ass than Harry has in his heart.

[LVjinx]

29. Integrity?

Is Al Gore an environmentalist? If he is, Ralph Nader is a liar. Is Al Gore progressive enough? If he is, Ralph Nader is a liar. Would we be better off today if Gore had been president instead of Bush? If we would, Ralph Nader is a liar.

He has no integrity. He is scum. He lied and lied and lied about a good man, Al Gore, who should have been this nation's president. Anyone who voted for him is personally responsible for putting George Bush in the White House. In fact, the man is worse than George Bush - because at least George Bush didn't pretend to be something he wasn't.

[Selatius]

31. Uh, GWB did pretend to be something he wasn't: A moderate. Get it right. n/t

[wtmusic]

45. Those are all opinions

so I'm not sure how "lying" comes into this. It's hysterical that you think Ralph has that much sway over the American electorate that whatever he says would be judged gospel, and none of Al's failed bid might be blamed on a wooden, uninspired campaign.

Al is a good man, but he blew it. Otherwise Nader wouldn't even be in the picture.

[creeksneakers2]

35. If it weren't for Ralph Nader we wouldn't have this problem in the

first place.

[AndyA]

3. Worse representation would be hard to find.

VOTE THEM OUT! ALL OF THEM!! WE'LL START OVER WITH NEW ONES WHO WILL DO WHAT WE WANT THEM TO DO!!!

[VP505]

5. Once again, false hope that the Dem's

would do the right thing, all the phone calls, emails, FAXES, petition signing a waste of time. I am getting so damned sick of this shit. Then they have the fucking nerve to expect we vote for them and contribute to their campaigns. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[wtmusic]

6. I knew it. Disgusting.

I'm now officially ashamed to have campaigned for Reid in 2004.

[Pavulon]

7. Did any one really thing Operational

information would make it to discovery in a public court. That will never happen.

Killing the intelligence communities' ability to work is counter productive.

Even if they revealed exactly how they conduct operations, who do you think would end up paying for the new system to replace the one that was effectively destroyed?

Yep, us.

[Leopolds Ghost]

64. So MR. Linux, you are defending NSA's server farm spying on all Americans

By asking us not to talk about it in open court.

[Pavulon]

8. dupe

dupe

[redqueen]

9. That was a quick turnaround.

*sigh*... what's the point.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

11. Compromising photos? nt

[gratuitous]

12. That's Greenwald's take

But nothing has been passed yet. The Daily Kos' mcjoan has a different interpretation which is a little more sanguine. And if telecom immunity is in the Senate version, please remember that it is NOT in the House version of this bill. 48 or 49 votes against telecom immunity might make the report of the joint committee decide to take it out entirely, but we need to make sure that telecom immunity gets as many "no" votes as possible.

[BuyingThyme]

38. Pelosi will do everything she can do to get this done,

to assure that criminals can continue to commit crimes against us. She and Reid hate everything our democracy once was. I suspect Hillary's lining up to join them.

[B Calm]

13. These DINO's make me want to stay home in November! I'm sick

of the best government corporations can buy!

[Individualist]

14. DLC prevails again,

and again and again. They'll continue doing so if voters continue rewarding enablers with their votes out of blind party loyalty.

[FiveGoodMen]

17. "blind party loyalty"

Yup!

That's what turned the republican party into the devil, and that's what's turning the Dems into satan's little brother.

Next time someone says, "I don't care who wins the primaries ... any Dem is fine," kick the everlovin' shit out of them.

[truedelphi]

19. But but Hillary is-s-s...

Like there's some thirty five years of experience.

And Obama, well, you know, the inspiration...

Jeesh!

I am going to vote for my huge rear end this November. I've tried as hard as I can to get it to change, and it ain't changing, and it damn sure ain't inspiring, but at least I know it keeps my seat warm!

Without it braggin' about how great it is!

[DutchLiberal]

57. But if you don't vote for the DLC corporate candidate, you're a traitor!

Haven't you heard, yet? We're better off when the Dems screw us than when the GOP screws us.

[flyarm]

15. BETWEEN THIS AND TORTURE and what they did to J.Edwards i am about to leave the Dem party..

and i am damn serious about it.

not another dime, not another moment of my time..fuck them all!..this is not a two party democracy..this is not a represenative republic..we are now the NEW WORLD ORDER

and people even here, knowing what they know, have been sheepled into it.

fly

[JDPriestly]

20. I am too. A life-long Democrat I am

I have worked hard for the Democratic Party, but the passage of telecom immunity would signal to me that the Democratic Party has left me.

I remember hearing my grandmother say to me "We used to be Republicans, but the Republican Party left us, so now we are Democrats." I'm beginning to wonder whether the Democratic Party has left me.

[truedelphi]

22. Ain't it the truth.

The party has gone away and the candidates at the upcoming convention won't even have to adapt a bit to the other candidate's desires in order to secure the delegates in total.

While M$M talks about the candidate selection process being new and improved.

[never_get_over_it]

21. I started leaving the night of the Senate IWR vote

and after this year of the Dem control of the Congress I am about to finish what I started back then - I really can't take this shit any more - we call and call and write and write and they don't listen - elections are rigged - progressives are marginalized - I just don't know what the hell to do anymore I'm SO DISCOURAGED....

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Welcome to the Indie camp

I give to SPECIFIC candidates, but have not given a red cent to the party for over a year

[Dhalgren]

16. I am not a Democrat!

[robinlynne]

18. JESUS!

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Why nothing will change, regardless

not until WE protest and do more than just protest

[NuttyFluffers]

25. as a republican who voted for democrats i feel let down a bit.

y'know, the results in situations like this end up being the same. except, one group does it proudly and uses it to sell them as being strong in their beliefs, whereas the other does it with a sense of impotence and lowers the morale of all their backers. fascinating, it's almost like there's a trend, or some sort of script... same choice, one you get rewarded, one you get punished, but the result is the same. it's like there's someone out there training people how to think or something...

or something...

[krkaufman]

30. "someone out there training people how to think"

Well, to some degree there is. The lower the quality of our news media drops, the less knowledgeable the public is -- and the less accountability. So it goes...

[Orwellian_Ghost]

26. K&R n/t

[slipslidingaway]

27. K&R See also...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2784367

Specter and FISA, something to keep in mind until it is over
Edited on Tue Jan-29-08 05:51 AM by slipslidingaway
Could this be brought up as an amendment?

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/32984prs20071205.h...

ACLU Says Specter Substitution Misses the Mark in FISA Debate

(12/5/2007)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: 202-675-2312 or [e-mail]

Washington, DC – "The American Civil Liberties Union today urged the Senate Judiciary Committee to thoroughly scrutinize a new bill offered by ranking member Senator Specter (R-PA). Senator Specter’s bill, the FISA Intelligence Surveillance Substitution Act of 2007, would remove the telecommunications companies and insert the federal government as the defendant in cases currently pending over domestic spying. The bill will be marked up by the full Judiciary Committee this Thursday.

The following can be attributed to Caroline Fredrickson, director of the ACLU Washington Legislative Office:

"Letting the administration step in as the defendant in these cases may prevent a public airing of the facts. Three daunting hurdles could derail these cases if the administration steps in as the defendant – state secrets, executive privilege and sovereign immunity. Unless something is done to ensure that these defenses cannot be used to shut down these legitimate and crucial lawsuits, substitution is just immunity in sheep’s clothing..."

[Senator]

28. K&R

[kentuck]

32. Get rid of that sorry SOB .

He is a traitor - not only to our Party - but to our country.

[femrap]

33. Harry Reid is a disgrace to the Dem Party....

I can't stand him. I wonder if he wears that funny underwear?

[BuyingThyme]

37. He is a criminal.

[femrap]

44. Someone was telling me that the Mormons

have a big financial presence in Las Vegas and Nevada...I don't follow religions much so I have no idea.

[creeksneakers2]

34. If the bill is not suitable when it comes out of the amendment process

It should be filibustered on final passage. The GOP filibusters bills they don't like all the time and they get away with it. Why can't Democrats simply hold out for a better deal with 40 votes?

There's still time to kill this bill is the net stays involved and writes in.

***The net could have done more to prevent this. When Democrats did win a vote against cloture there was almost zero credit coming from the net.****

[DiamondJay]

36. thanks nancy pelosi

we need a new, STRONG speaker. Pelosi has failed, put John Murtha as speaker.

[pink-o]

39. I'm sooo f'in sick of these people!

...it took less than a year for us to realise these corporate clones are just as bad as the other corporate clones they took the congress from. Two big tools from my city, too--Pelosi and Feinstein have always been DINOS. The former got her seat as part of the Burton machine (read: California's answer to the DLC) the second only jump-started her political career due to a tragedy when the real mayor of SF was assassinated.

Boxer is the only good politician we have representing us. (she's awesome, but she can't fight it alone).


We site 1984 a lot these days, but the whole 2006 election reminds me of another Orwell story: Animal Farm. All the farm animals were so excited when the pigs overthrew the evil humans; it took no time at all for those porcine prols to become overlords just like their primate enemies.

We need to build a momument to Orwell for his visionary writings!

[bbgrunt]

47. I hear Mukase has put up Orwell's portrait in his office--that's

monument enough for me.

[pink-o]

50. Really? What the hell could he possibly get out of that???

The GOP are totally irony-challenged, so you know it's not for any clever reason!

[bbgrunt]

51. iOlbermann reported it last week and had the same questioning response.

sure sounds ominous to me.

[Wizard777]

40. Retroactive immunity will not survive SCOTUS. Ex post facto law is a no no.

It's purely a symbolic gesture. Oh hell, a symbolic gesture may have more legal weight than retroactive telecom immunity.

[knitter4democracy]

46. With this Supreme Court?

I'm not sure I'd take that bet.

[Wizard777]

48. George does very bad with Judges. Even SCOTUS Judges.

So far the judiciary is the only branch of the government that has not hestitated to back hand Bush. Once we can get a nonpartisan DOJ to take him into court. I think Judges will not hesitate to hand him his ass.

[Richard Steele]

52. I guess "Bush v Gore" doesn't ring a bell?

And that was before he replaced 2 of them
with handpicked co-conspirators.

The Supreme Court will do nothing to stop this.

Nothing.

[Wizard777]

59. They determined that the Geneva Convention applied to Al Qaida.

That put him the jackpot for war crimes charges. He wanted to raize Abu Ghraib after the torture story broke. A military judge declared it a crime scene and prohibited it's destruction. He doesn't lose them all. BUT he loses more than he wins. That's why he tries to avoid courts at all costs. He doesn't do well there. That's because he goes to court with stupid assertions like I'm above the law. So what you think is moot point. Not something judges like to hear.

[Richard Steele]

62. And then everyone the Army had determined to be INNOCENT was released from Guantanamo, right ?

OOPS- no, just the opposite, Opie:
we're still holding and torturing
people we have ADMITTED are innocent...
AwwGeeShucksHowBoutDat?



You're living in a dream world, my fellow DUer.

You IMAGINE that you are clinging to straws...
but those particular straws became waterlogged
and SANK years ago.

[knitter4democracy]

53. Are you serious?

The Supreme Court has expanded corporate powers, has not stopped Bush on signing statements (not even to say publicly that they will go against him if it's brought before them), and hasn't done all that great at stopping him even on things they ruled against him on.

[Wizard777]

63. Yes I'm serious. Bush just got another smackdown from the courts.

The navy is required to abide by the evironmental laws concerning sonor that Bush exempted them from.

[AZ Criminal JD]

54. Ex post facto law only applies to criminal liability

You can't impose criminal liability on conduct someone has done in the past when that conduct was legal at the time. This does not apply to civil actions. Retroactive immunity is legal and has been passed many times in the past -- the elimination of the ability of people to sue Iran after the hostage crisis is a famous example.

[Leopolds Ghost]

65. So where's the criminal investigation of NSA wiretapping in collusion w/ AT&T?

[JackRiddler]

41. Now remember, Bush runs the most "incompetent" administration ever

if by incompetence you mean the ability to accomplish all legislative and budgetary goals no matter how radical thanks to enabling behavior from the Democrats. (Only two exceptions: Social Security plunder and "tort reform." Everything else they wanted or proposed, they got.)

[MasonJar]

42. It is utterly despicable to say that you assume Hillary is going to

line up to join them. Do you have any substantial proof of that allegation? Are you sure Obama will not since he and Hillary think the same on most issues and since both came to the Senate to vote against cloture? Do not paint our candidates with the tar without legitimate proof.

[MasonJar]

43. Getting back to the original premise, we must not bend. We must

call, fax and e-mail these dems, especially Reid. If he allows this bill to go through, he needs to immediately step down for Dodd. I got a pathetic e-mail from him after I castigated him last week and I am not even his constituent. Call him everyday; it is our only chance.

[silvershadow]

49. Take this for what it is worth, but here is something to at least consider

I heard a guest on a radio show the other day say that the reason Democrats in congress seem to get nothing done is that the administration has the plans completely drawn up and lying on Bush's desk for martial law and the suspension of the elections. Everytime the Democrats try to play serious hardball about an issue Bush taps his finger on the report, which is always lying on the desk and then we go away. The guest said that the report is the administration's "insurance policy". They don't necessarily want to implement the plans and suspend the elections, but that they are only using it as a kind of blackmail. What they want is for us to let them finish their term and do their will unfettered. No investigations. No hinderences. The program was Coast to Coast AM with George Noory so I seriously doubt the story was vetted, and probably isn't true. But it does make you wonder.

[TexasObserver]

55. I am livid about the FISA rollovers by Democratic legislators

It's disgusting. I understand when Pelosi and Reid say they don't have the votes to override a veto, but they have wholly failed to use the power they have. They don't have to pass anything, but they do it because they're both cowardly in the face of Bush.

Pelosi and Reid must be replaced by Democrats who will use the power of their office to stop the rampant march of fascism George Bush has set in place.

[wiggs]

67. Rollover, caving, capitulation are incorrect terms. Those words imply that they tried and failed.

Rather, dem leaders are getting what they want: more power to government, hiding government misdeeds, and more power to corporate interests while appearing to be in the opposition camp. The last couple of months hasn't been negotiation resistance, compromise; it has been posturing to maintain an illusion.

[DutchLiberal]

56. And then they blame people for voting for Nader...

[natrat]

58. most elected democrats are complete scumbags-go nader

[KoKo]

60. We were hoping for a different outcome. But, OBAMA will change this...

because we have to have "Hope for Change."

[Canuckistanian]

61. Disgusting

Since WHEN do subordinate parties ALWAYS capitulate to the dominant political bullies?

This is NOT the American Way.

Where is the respect... nay, the ADULATION for the minority "underdog" view??

Reid ought to be excoriated in the press, then summarily drawn and quartered - symbolically, of course.

[marmar]

66. I don't condone violence, but.....

.... Harry Reid needs his ass kicked. :argh: