In film you can show a man slide a (deleted) into a woman's (deleted) and go to jail.

[Dawggie]

However, if you show a man slide a (knife) into a woman's (abdomen) it's fine for prime time television.

Please notice that even the title of this post cannot be said without deletions because the offense would get this post locked.

And we wonder why we're the most violent society on earth?

Hell, as far as I know we're the only society with political action committees for personal gun ownership.


We glorify violence and damn love in America. We reap what we sow.

[villager]

1. And of course, no problem with a "Guns" forum here, but God forbid there should be a "sex" forum.

n/t

[kdmorris]

6. Well, to be fair... I see your point

But... there's not too much controversy about sex. Everyone likes it and everyone wants to do it. The only controversy is whether or not is should be shown on TV. So, you would need a Porn forum.

And I believe we do have that, already. It's the Women's Rights forum :evilgrin:

[villager]

11. "Not too much controversy about sex?"

Man, show me where *that* America is -- the one where bullets aren't constantly flying and sex is welcomed and embraced.

As for it not being controversial here at DU -- well, I guess not. Since it's not allowed.

Unless I start checking out that Women's Rights forum? ;-)

[kdmorris]

12. Sorry, I was just kind of kidding around

As in, everyone agrees that sex is good and everyone wants to do it... oh never mind!

Sorry, I was just being flippant when it's actually a serious subject.

[Dawggie]

13. What if the sex is between two males? Or females?

Not controversial?

[kdmorris]

14. Yes, it is

Like I told villager, I was just kidding around and shouldn't have been.

As in, there's no controversy that everyone like sex....

Again, I apologize for making light of a serious matter, because frankly, it's appalling how much violence we let out kids see and how "shocking" it is if they see the human body.

[Deja Q]

18. Let me strip off in front of you.

Want shocking? I've got one too many bulges. And exercise doesn't help.

[Dawggie]

20. LOL! Please don't! I have too many unwanted pounds myself.

I have no need to imagine them at places I haven't thought of in recent months. :toast:

[TankLV]

43. sigh - I know what you mean - sigh...

I suppose I could exercise...NAAAAAA!...

but I enjoy my couch more...aparently...

[Deja Q]

46. Oh, I've been exercising...

But it gets harder to fight the fear of the demise of our country and our futures.

We'd be better off eating lard right out of the bucket and praying for a fast heart attack. x(

[Xenotime]

21. What about group sex?

[femrap]

28. And that Darwin avatar you

have is an oxymoron.

[kdmorris]

33. How so?

You think I'm religious?

[femrap]

51. You haven't evolved....still

dragging those knuckles and into misogyny.

And I guess not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[kdmorris]

55. Oh, that's nice

The comment I made about the Women's Rights forum was in poor taste, but I'm really not sure how I can be dragging my knuckles into misogyny unless I hate myself.

I am as much against porn as you are. But I'm NOT against showing making love in films. I specifically remember one scene in The Piano that was really beautiful. The entire scene had both people naked, but it showed how much in love they were. I was more disturbed by the scene in which her husband, having found out about the affair, chops her finger off.

You don't know me, apparently haven't even looked at my profile to see what gender I am, haven't looked at any of my previous posts to see what I stand for or what I believe in and YOU say I haven't evolved? That's priceless.

[femrap]

59. I just reacted to your

comment about pron in the Women's Rights forum and your avatar....just appeared as an oxymoron. That's all. I had no idea that I had to research you before I commented on something that looked pretty obvious to me.

So you admit it was poor taste...why yell at me?

And BTW, a woman can be a misogynist...look at Phyllis Schaffly, for example.

[kdmorris]

61. How am I yelling at you?

Yes, a woman can be a misogynist. You have to admit that every thing that gets mentioned on DU about porn is sent to the Women's Rights forum. While I will admit that it was in poor taste (as I've mentioned several times, I was just being flippant), I didn't say I was wrong.

Guess I just don't like it much when people start making assumptions and calling me names for something that wasn't even meant to be bad. But, I'm not yelling at you.

[femrap]

69. Ok, let's just forget it.

I guess I have everyone on Ignore who sends anything about pron to
Women's Rights or the Feminist forums.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

17. This is a political forum.

The Gungeon discusses the political issues related to guns. There are also subforums that discuss the currently-controversial political issues to do with sex.

[Dawggie]

19. And your point is.....?

This post is to address the dichotomy between sex and violence. It is a social and political issue. Because it does not show violence and tools of violence in a positive light, you would prefer that it not be given much exposure to the DU populace?

[femrap]

30. You know something....

there is a big difference between love making and sex/f*cking. And most of pron is just f*cking with lots of violence and degradation on women.

Many young men today are seeking counseling because they are unable to have a relationship with a real woman...he just sees a 'bad pron star.'

(And I am misspelling on purpose so if someone dumbf*ck is searching....he won't find it.

[kdmorris]

39. I think you are mistaking showing making love in a film

and pornography. The original poster wasn't talking about pornography.

There is a real problem with allowing kids to see so much violence but no sex. Like the one poster said about Braveheart. In Braveheart, they hack heads and legs off and there's blood everywhere, but this one guy won't let his kids see it because it shows a woman's breast (the scene is the act of making love on their wedding night). This isn't about pornography.

[femrap]

52. A couple of ideas come to mind....

remember the old black and white flicks of the '40's and when the lovemaking began, it was fade to black...everyone got the idea and did leave something to the imagination. Is it truly necessary to show the humping and a breast.

And, when does the women audience get the male penis? That's only fair.

As for the OP, he used 'deleted' as if he wanted to call the body parts by some vile names....instead of their anatomical name.

I wish I hadn't even bothered to read the OP.

[Dawggie]

53. then you should see Eastern Promises with viggo Mortenson.

Not only will you get nekkid male wrestling, you will also get an Oscar caliber performance.

And as to the use of "(deleted)" it was a literary tool to facilitate the next statement of (knife) and (abdomen).

This is not a thread about sex or most certainly not pornography. It is about this country's preoccupation with violence and puritanical views on human interaction.

[femrap]

60. Right...

doubt if I go to that movie. I used to go see all of the Oscar nominated movies, but in the past few years I have seen the nominations go down hill. I went to see Daniel Day Lewis this past week in There Will Be Blood...to see him and knowing that the movie was based on Sinclair Lewis' book, "Oil." Daniel was good at being a horrid person...but that movie should have been called 'There Will Be Boredom.'

I guess the title of your post was just to get attention...

And I make a habit of avoiding violent movies...I don't want to give them my money so they end of making more of them....just like I don't buy anything made in China.

I try to put my money where my soul/heart is. Spending money is very political.

[Dawggie]

63. While Eastern Promises has some violent scenes

and all the nudity was male (as far as I remember) the plot was very character driven and was essentially anti violence in its nature.

Here's a review from Imdb that says it better than I could:

"Eastern Promises" will take your breath away, churn your stomach, and then leave you with memories of unforgettable characters as well as perplexing thoughts about good and evil. David Cronenberg's movie about Russian and Chechen mobsters clashing in London is more than violent - it is brutal, savage, shocking. But do not expect just an action film, exploiting blood and gore. After you shake off its terrific immediate impact (there is no way to think while watching it), you realize that "Eastern Promises" is also a kind of morality tale, complex and important.

Only after you hold your breath, cover your eyes, and get through the movie do you realize how "Eastern Promises" manages to contradict Friedrich Nietzsche effectively. The German philosopher's "Beyond Good and Evil" denied the possibility of a universal morality. Cronenberg's film says that ethics - without expectation of rewards, in this life or a possible other one - can prevail even in the depths of great evil. The "History of Violence" director continues his subtle, subtext theme of upholding Anne Frank's belief that "in spite of everything people are really good at heart," and he does so without a smidgen of sentimentality.

There is no goodness in evidence as Viggo Mortensen's scary Russian mobster does every bidding of Armin Mueller-Stahl's chilling godfather figure, ruling ruthlessly over a family, which includes his son, a monster out of control, played brilliantly by Vincent Cassel (son of Jean-Pierre Cassel).

During a pre-release press tour, Cronenberg spoke of his wish to present "provocative, juicy stories... with complexity... showing that all monsters are sentimental and have some kind of relationship to a moral compass." That is all true, but what makes "Eastern Promises" so appealing is that there is no pop psychology (or worse, pop philosophy) in or about it. The film hits you over the head with its magnificently written story (Steven Knight, of "Dirty Pretty Things"), not with a message.

The title, on one level, refers to promises made to young women in Russia, luring them to the West, where the Mob enslaves them as prostitutes. It is one of these drugged and brutalized women whose death opens the film, and brings an English nurse (Naomi Watts) into the story.

As a multitude of promises, threats and tragedies unfolds, you get the maximum out of "Eastern Promises" with minimum advance knowledge of its story. Initially, that is. When you return to see it again, it won't matter that you'll know how it ends, you will want to re-experience what is certain to become a classic film. ("Eastern Promises" was shown at the Toronto Festival last week, opened in San Francisco today, goes nationwide on Sept. 21.)

[femrap]

70. Eastern Promises is no longer on the big screen in

my area...probably on dvd already. I just got back from 'No Country for Old Men.' Again...why not entitle it 'No Country for Audiences.' As the movie ended, everyone (maybe 12 of us) stood up and said 'UCK!' Not only are humans killed, but lets kill animals too. As 'There Will Be Boredom,' another slow and predictable and very violent movie. And these two movies are the BIG NOMINATIONS. I think the Oscars have become an 'Insider's Party.' The Coen Brothers must have lots of friends in high places. Or they are willing to do things in very low places...lol.

I still have yet to see 'Atonement' and 'Savages.' All of the movies I liked this year didn't get any nominations...'Lambs for Lions' and 'The Valley of Elah.' I guess AIPAC has lots of pull when it comes to the Oscars.

[kdmorris]

56. Depends on HOW they show the "humping"

I'm not against showing how beautiful sex can be in films. I don't think it needs to be "faded to black". And I don't think they necessarily have to show a breast either. They can show it from a distance, from one person's back, through a mesh, etc. There are ways to show the beauty without making fun of it or acting like it's a freak show.

I think the OP used {deleted} so that he/she wouldn't get in trouble for having those words in the subject line. I don't think the Admin of DU really cares, so I may have not put it quite that way, but I certainly am not going to tell anyone how they should post.

I'm glad I read the post. The problem is that violence is glorified and the beauty of life and love are not. And that's part of the reason why so many children lack empathy. If it came down to showing two people making love or showing a violent rape, the violent rape WOULD be shown, but the other would be censored.

I think that's a huge problem, don't you?

[Dawggie]

64. Thanks.

You said it well.

[librechik]

2. brilliant

will borrow!

[Dawggie]

3. Please do. and rec as well! If you have seen the video on the front page

it brings it to a point as to where we have progressed as a society.

[Merlot]

4. "This Film is Unrated" - excellent documentary

Investigates the Ratings Board and addresses the sex vs violence issue. Quite a good film, and has moments of hmor as well.

[MindPilot]

24. "...moments of humor as well"

Especially that news reel footage from the fifties wherein the the white man in the suit actually uses the phrase "They hate us for our freedom!"

[xchrom]

5. recommend

[Lorien]

7. I once dated a man from Sweden who was shocked by what Americans

saw as "obscene". "In the US you can show a person having their head blown off and it's OK, but if you show a woman's breast you say it corrupts the mind. Then you wonder why you have so much crime." I agreed with him then and I agree with him now. Hell, I even know a "christian" who said that his young kids could watch "Braveheart" as long as he could find a way to delete the scene that shows Cathrine McCormick's breast on her wedding night!

[Heidi]

22. I married a man like that, and after listening and observing,

I'm on the European side of this debate. Logic: we've all got breasts, vaginas and penises. That's natural. In evolved cultures, death porn isn't natural.

[Dawggie]

23. How true!

But to put all sexually explicit content in that vein is wrong.

James Joyce, Vladimir Nabakov and so many others have been banned due to sexual content. I cannot remember a text that has been banned due to exessive violence.

[TankLV]

44. "all"? Really? Men have "breasts" and "vaginas"?

ya learn somethin new every day...

[Dawggie]

48. We do have breasts. Savage ones as in what music doth soothes....

As for the rest, I'm not going to give you an anatomy lesson. :)

[femrap]

31. The Swedish culture has an entirely

different view of the human body. For example, when changing into swimsuits...my friend saids that both genders are in the same room. Everyone wraps a towel around them and changes...but if the towel slides and one of the guys sees a breast, there is no laughing...NOTHING.

It's an entirely different culture and mindset.

[Fridays Child]

8. I agree with your point, although it's fair to say that...

...when men slide their deleteds into women's deleteds, it's not always about love. Sometimes, it's just an act of sex, which is fine. But, sometimes it's an act of violence, which is every bit as disgusting as your knife scenario, albeit less bloody.

[Dawggie]

9. Thankfully the violent act of penetration is a huge minority when it comes to the act of sex.

And while as violent as acts can be, I feel was not intended to be concerned with the OP.

It happens, but not nearly as often as what happens when a couple of hormonally challenged teens do in the back seat of mom and dad's car on any evening in America.

[Malikshah]

10. I think Carrie Fisher once said-- here in the US, they'd rather watch

someone cut off a breast than kiss it.

I'm not sure if that's a paraphrase, but the idea is clear.

[Deja Q]

16. Well, if she wants me to kiss it...

Now that's hot.

[Deja Q]

15. Don't we also have the highest number of abortions and unwanted children?

I know, show the (deleted) - on the big screen, and in color, and nobody will ever want to (delete) ever again.

[Dawggie]

25. Which (deleted) are we talking about?

:evilgrin:

[Deja Q]

42. Yes.

All of them.

:bounce:
:rofl:

[uppityperson]

26. I know, it irks the heck out of me too.

Couldn't watch much of first LOTR movie due to the violence, but show a nipple on tv and OMG! The CHILDREN! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

I think it is because this is a society that loves violence and control. Simplistic, yes. But that is my quick answer.

[OmahaBlueDog]

27. Here's the thing I can't fathom

In America, many in the GOP want us to have ID that will be used for all manner of mass transportation and employment, and they want few, if any restrictions placed on data gathering of e-mails, phone use, and the internet. This, allegedly, to protect us from the terror. Many of these same social conservatives are against abortion, because it violates the sanctity of life.

So...

Ask these same people how they feel about mandatory registration of guns. Wait 3 seconds, and pained howling and whining will ensue.


[in the interest of full disclosure: 1) someone close to me was murdered with a gun in a robbery, 2) I actually personally support gun ownership, as it is a constitutional right, and I have a lot of respect for the NRA; that said, I think firearms should be registered and insured, like vehicles).

[krispos42]

54. The opposite is true, too...

Democrats argue that unrestricted data gathering of emails, phone calls, and internet traffic does nothing to combat terrorists, and that it's most likely for ruthless domestic-political purposes, authoritarianism, and control...

Unless, of course, it's guns. Then it's perfectly okay to demand registration of guns and their owners, putting that information in a government database in the interests of combating crime.

[OmahaBlueDog]

65. And of course, the truth that vexes both sides is...

That the NRA and the ACLU are flip sides of the same coin. Both have their favorite Constitutional amendments, and both fight doggedly to prevent perceived infringements on the rights those amendments represent.

I do take your point, and I agree, the argument works both ways, to a point.

All of our search and seizure rights came out of the data gathering abuses of the 18th century. The technology was far different, but the issues -- "terror" against the Crown, torture, search, and seizure are, essentially unchanged. Nobody likes terrorism, and nobody thinks it's not a threat; however, many feel that there's no plausible reason why legal law enforcement can't ask judges for warrants.

Guns are a paradox. They are a tool of tyrants and a vanguard against tyrrany, simultaneously. The vast majority of gun owners are honest and responsible, but we rarely hear live news reports from deer stands or target ranges. OTOH, a good alarm system is statistically better home defense than a handgun; the average handgun owner is statistically more likely to harm his/herself than ever shoot a n'er do well; and far more (far, far, more) Americans have died from gun violence than have died from non-state actor terrorism or state sponsored terrorism. OTOOH, if a President decided to dissolve Congress and suspend elections, those Constitutionally protected weapons would be our best recourse; however, the irony here is that most gun enthusiasts I know would support disbanding Congress and extending Presidential rule -- for this President in particular.

[krispos42]

67. That's pretty much it in a nutshell...

Although I will note that you can't draw a conclusion on the effectivness of guns for self-defense simply by the number of justifiable homicides. Guns are used defensively about 1.2 million times per year, yet only about 200 people are justifiable killed.




I believe that George Lakoff has it right in Don't Think of an Elephant, which explains the "strict father model" and the "nurturing parent model" of political thought. I think you can guess which one is which. If you haven't read it, remedy that discrepency immediately! It's a fairly short book, but packed full of information.


But the nuturing parent model is involved in protection in a different way than the strict-father model. NPM involves protection from things like dangerous toys, flammable clothing, lead paint, pollution, etc., which also includes abhorring violence. SFM is more "you are responsible for your own protection", and things like gov't regulations of, say, pollution really should be left to the free market.




I personally think the real reason Republican are pro-gun is because it would naturally make the Democrats anti-gun. In this way the authoritarian Republicans put themselves in a win-win situation: by having Democrats disarm the country in the name of "public safety", the authoritarians get either a) a disarmed populace (especially the blue states), or b) political power after Democrats get booted out of power for trying to disarm the populace. Remember, Sarah Brady is a Republican.



And again, you are absolutely right: if Clinton had done after Oklahoma City what Bush is doing now, the vast majority of the 29-percenters would be running around the woods in Idaho in cammies, toting rifles and stockpiling MREs.

[uppityperson]

29. Let's experiment. Penis. Vagina. delete?

Are these 2 anatomical words obscene enough to delete this post? Maybe you meant anus but I think penis is a physiological word that is oft heard with giggles and is what you mean.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

37. I find that distasteful, but most I find distasteful is violence disguised as sex ("raging" part).

And yes, I'd rather rec a post about Iraq vs about consensual sex since the first is important to me and partially my fault, where the second is none of my damn business.

[Dawggie]

40. I have to believe that the vast majority of sex is consensual.

And the point was that a post dealing with a violent act garners appreciation while a sexual post would not.

Normally, this should not be an issue as a physical function such as eating, defecating or copulation should not be of much interest to most.

However, in today's social "norm" it is much more acceptable to describe a heinous death than to describe the act of making love or any situation's that would include pleasure.

This isn't about the importance of the bastardly war we have placed upon the ME but more about the importance of what our government deems "proper" for our children to view and learn via the mass media available to most.

[uppityperson]

45. I am very much in agreement with you.

Was just talking about a couple comparisons, but yes. I am very much in agreement with you. Next, let's get into the mixing of sports and war metaphors. Naw, off for a nap.

[cgrindley]

49. Well, that's just wretched wording... penis and vagina are fine (nt)

[windoe]

32. Yet another sign of fascism-

desensitivity to violence, mysogyny and sexual repression, and the banning of pleasure, ecstasy and free thought.
When I was young and first saw pictures of the holocaust and read about the violence at the Roman colloseum, I was shocked at how sick and depraved humans could become. I knew then these were the signs of a truly sick society, and never thought I would ever live through it.
How we got here has been discussed at great length here at DU. Fascism also works best when people are asleep, afraid and hopeless. So it is in our best interest to stay awake, to awaken our children, and to replace fear with education, respect, compassion and justice. Then perhaps there can be another rennaissance of love in art.

[JosephSchmo]

34. Great point

and I wonder why that is as well

[Dawggie]

36. Welcome to du!

[SoCalDem]

38. Frankly, I don't "need' to see either "event"

Psycho "worked", because the act was implied..

[tkmorris]

41. True enough, but to be fair

The reason the violence in Psycho is more implied than actually on camera has more to do with when it was made than any artistic decision making.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. But films like Psycho work in ways that Frenzy (also by Hitchcock) doesn't

Psycho is creepy and suspenseful, because your imagination runs wild. Frenzy, made when the censorship standards had relaxed, is just gross.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

58. Thank you. I hate the false dichotomy.

Depictions of violence and sex can be problematic in their own ways.

[cgrindley]

50. Film violence does not contribute to real violence

that's just dumb. It's possible to campaign for hard core pornography to be televised prior to the 9 pm watershed, and believe me, you'd have my support--even though part of me figures that all porn is demeaning to women, another part of me really likes porn. But what are you going to do--anyhow... it is possible to campaign for more sex on tv without getting rid of the violence. Violence in movies and on tv is fucking cool as shit. We don't want to lose that.

[Dawggie]

57. Using that reasoning, I guess that one's reading selections never

influence one's thoughts or ideals?

If someone is continually subjected... Oh, hell. Just go watch clockwork Orange! :)

[kdmorris]

62. Given graphics and realism these days

it DOES desensitize people to violence in real life. It doesn't cause people to go out and commit violent acts, but it DOES make them have less empathy for suffering human beings.

"Violence in movies and on TV is fucking cool as shit?" Um...how old are you? Of course, given your previous posting history, I would say you are a fine example of someone who has been desensitized to the suffering of others.

[cgrindley]

68. I was half heartedly quoting Quentin Tarantino

but he was right, you know, film and tv violence is cool.

[tomreedtoon]

66. I disagree. It has SOME effect.

It may be that we don't have a pure cause-and-effect thing that you could chart and plot, but would you deny that there is some effect?

Like sex and nudity, there is a matter of context. People getting naked in the porn of the early 60's, where the films and actors had some degree of humor about them, was fun. People getting naked and having sex in modern-day porn films is just depressing. They don't even look or sound like human beings with souls.

And the Abu Gareb tortures involved nudity, too. That wasn't fun at all, was it?

In the same way, there is necessary violence - let's say, the shootings in the end of High Noon - as opposed to the Japanese torture porn films that have been popular recently. They are so offensive that I would like to find the scumbags responsible for the Saw films - that I have never had the stomach to see - and beat them within an inch of their lives. But then, I have PTSD from a robbery and near-rape, so I guess I'm kinda sensitive to it.

So, don't go around claiming that there is absoluetly NO kind of effect. That's nonsense.

[east texas lib]

71. Well...

I believe Larry Flint of "Hustler" fame has saying that exact thing for years. Of course he
was attempting to justify his distrbution of porn. That still does not make the point any
less valid. That being said, I do have guns to help me protct my family, and as long as they
are the preferred tool of the criminal I'll keep them.