Why are some forms of bigotry/prejudice here at DU okay, while other froms are not?

[HardWorkingDem]

I just read through the the thread of the woman who was strip searched in Canton, OH.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x89734


This thread also has a horrifying video and depicts behavior that I certainly do not agree with. But through the thread there are all sorts of comments directed toward police officers.

Some DUer's type how they hate all cops. How cops are pigs, nazis and on and on. In other words, a prejudice is assigned toward a large group of people just because of their occupation.

What I'm getting at is prejudice, bigotry or whatever, is mostly frowned upon here except when it involves certain things it seems. People here disdain the painting with a broad brush, but then do it themselves.

[frogcycle]

1. the anti-cop comments are all out of line

we also have people who claim all our troops are murderers.

There a a little bit of Jim Phelps in many people.

[More Than A Feeling]

3. Jim Phelps? The lead character in "Mission:Impossible?"

I think you mean Fred Phelps.

[Stinky The Clown]

5. Isn't that Phred Phelps .......

Phred Phelps the Rat Phucker?

[frogcycle]

8. i stand corrected

i started to look it up and then the tired old brain cells fooled me into thinking I had it...

but you got the point - thanks for being gentle!

[Stinky The Clown]

2. How about disdain for Republicans?

I know what you're saying, but where is the right place to draw that line?

[HardWorkingDem]

6. I'm as anti-rethug as anyone, but...

I do try to limit my disgust for particular types of rethugs. And I don't think I run around saying things like I hate all republicans or think all republicans are nazis and the like.

[TZ]

7. How about not automatically attacking a DU'er for their

opinion because they work in the industry. I get tired of being called a shill, unethical and child-poisoner you know.

[Stinky The Clown]

19. I'm assuming that's a rhetorical question

[TZ]

30. nope. Lets add janitor to that list as well.n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

42. Why are you picking a fight with me?

I honestly don't get your point. I mean, I understand why you say what yu say and what you mean, but why ask it of me, specifically? What did my post do to piss you off against me? :shrug:

[TZ]

59. Sorry

I was taking some frustration on certain people on this board out on you (some of whom should NOT be here, IMO). Didn't mean to offend, but I wanted to emphasize that its common here for large groups of professionals to be demonized.

[TZ]

4. I am VERY aware of this

I work in the biopharmaceutical industry. Right behind cops on DU's most hated list, I think.
I've tried to point out that all companies/individuals aren't the same and that bigotry is not acceptable..but it doesn't seem to get through.

[NastyRiffraff]

9. Because, as always, it's easier to group people into "categories"

It's much harder to look within those categories for differences, good and bad. The very definition of prejudice is that all people in one category are the same.

[Mythsaje]

10. It cuts both ways...

Entirely too many cops treat us, the citizens, as if we're all prospective criminals and their apologists ignore this as an inconvenient fact of life. Their lives are considered more important than OURS, and they, as a group, choose an occupational path that, in MY view, at least, is more ethically challenging than just about any other out there. Sure, there are good cops. Plenty of them. But the (in)justice system is fouled by corruption, bigotry, and a "war" on the American citizens that cops sign onto just by being what they are.

I don't hate cops, but I sure as hell don't trust them.

[HardWorkingDem]

16. Maybe you should take the time...

to talk to a few of them and ask them the reasons why they behave the way they do. Whether people here like to believe it or not, there are many reasons cops may act the way you describe and perceive them and the main reason for this is to go home alive to their families each time.

With that, I feel safe to make the claim that probably 90 percent of the people cops run into on a negative, repeated contact are the worst examples of a civilized society and sadly, it is too easy to base one's perception on that small repeated number of citizens, but that is what happens. Not only that, should it be any surprise how hard it wound not be to be distrustful of people when the greatest majority of those met are so good at lying and subterfuge? (It seems to be the same thing my OP rails about, but it's not: many, many people cops come into contact with are those that lie, cheat or otherwise try to get one over on people - what people seem to do so quick here is base their hatred on a relatively few number of encounters or video examples).

[Dhalgren]

11. The only people able to really police the police are the police, themselves.

And they don't do it. Why not? Are all cops bad? No. Do all cops contribute to the mentality that allows bad cops to thrive? Yes. If the "good" cops would stop covering for the "bad" cops, then maybe this evil situation in our country could be turned around. But since there are no cops "good" enough, to bust the "bad" cops, then labeling them all "bad" is not out of line...

[Didereaux]

12. If they WANT to be a cop..then they SHOULDN'T be. There is a mind set. n/m

[newmajority]

13. I think someone wanting to be a cop should have a thorough mental evaluation first.

Seems like there are three kinds of police on the streets these days:

1) Those who actually take "protect and serve" seriously.

2) Power tripping mental cases who just want the excuse to beat the shit out of people, and if they really get lucky, kill them.

3) Ex military guys who still think they're in a combat zone.

Unfortunately it's type 1 that seems to be a rarity anymore, and the other two create more problems than they solve.

[HardWorkingDem]

17. Actually....

the most are of number one. It's the other two that get all of the attention and create the mis-perception so many seem to have.

[Dhalgren]

14. Where were the "good" cops while this poor woman was being assaulted?

Out of seven or eight cops standing there watching this brutality, why did not one come to this poor woman's defense? Were no "good" cops on duty that night? When you have seven cops on duty and seven out of seven are "bad", where is the exaggeration there?

[HardWorkingDem]

15. Many questions left unasked and unanswered...

I have now watched both parts to this story and with seeing them, have many unanswered questions.

For example, the woman seems to be impaired in some way - emotional, substance, mental - I don't know. Secondly, what if all through this segment, she was making comments about harming herself? How do we know at some point she did not make a comment she was going to hang her self with her clothing?

I find the video disturbing, but there are also other factors involved people have no information about.

What was her demeanor early on? Things like that and to make a blanket observation based on what is shown here does not take into account any of the unavailable information.

And there is a difference between a "strip search" and removing a person's clothing for possible safety of an unstable person.

Not only that, people are making complaints about the violation of policy. What is to be done if there weren't enough female employees to deal with an agitated person?

[Dhalgren]

21. With seven or eight cops standing there, she wasn't going to hurt herself.

They were doing far more harm to her by their actions than if they had simply treated her as a human being. If she needed medical care she should have been given medical care and not assaulted. You may think that there are plenty of reasons why a person in police custody should be assaulted, but I can't think of one that I would agree with. Once a person is in police custody they should be safe from assault - but, hey, that's just me...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. They Weren't Going To Be Standing There All Day.

It is somewhat standard to see a large ratio of cops in that situation, holding the person down etc. It is also always videotaped to ensure there was no wrongdoing.

The problem is that people on the outside of jail, expect what goes on inside jail to have the same civility. It just simply doesn't work that way. Inside of jail is a completely different society with completely different rules. You simply ARE under their full 100% control behind those walls. You can't view what happens on the inside with the same lens as you'd view a similar thing happening outside. I can't really explain it. It's just a different world with different rules.

[HardWorkingDem]

32. Where did I ever state..

as you claim that, "You may think that there are plenty of reasons why a person in police custody should be assaulted"....

Have you ever seen or been around when a person in handcuffs rams their own head against a wall or squad car partition?

Have you ever tried to talk to or reason with a person who is unstable? Violent? Threatening to harm themselves? Or have you ever seen or been around a person using a sharp weapon against themselves?

If so, are you suggesting just letting them continue? Or continue to give them the means to do so?

What I am suggesting is that people who watch these two news segments are only getting part of the story and on this part are making all sorts of judgments and comments.

By the way, I have seen and been present in all of the things I've described.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

24. One Thing People May Not Know, Is That What I Saw Was Almost Standard Practice.

You have to be very careful how you answer the questions. When asked about whether she had weapons or wanted to harm herself, she answered "now or ever". There are no grey areas during that interview. That wishy washy answer was enough for them to right then and there deem her a threat, which means all personal belongings and clothing are removed. Happens every day in probably every jail out there. If she didn't willingly remove her clothes (not sure if they asked or not), then they absolutely would've forcefully removed them like they did. This is far more common than people here probably realize. If she was being difficult and there was risk of her being suicidal etc, then they absolutely would've immediately used the force that they had. That's just the way it's done behind those walls. You have no idea the things I witnessed when I was in jail. I saw far worse than that.

I didn't see the cops side of the story though, so I don't know what did or didn't happen. The video didn't shock me though, since forceful removal of clothes from someone who hinted they might be suicidal and uncooperative, is something I had already witnessed quite a few times.

[Hissyspit]

53. Yes, power is easy to abuse. n/t

[Echo In Light]

54. And often is within every system of authority. That attracts certain personalities to it

[Barb in Atl]

18. Personally, I don't trust police officers

...and my sister was one for a couple years. That didn't help. She told me how assumptions are made and how cops protect other cops (and their family and friends).

There are so many stories of folks being shot, sodomized, beaten by police, but there is rarely a criminal prosecution or any sort of punishment. Worse, I don't think half of the stories are actually deemed newsworthy.

Are they all bad? Nope. But as someone posted before, not enough good cops police the bad cops so you don't know what you're dealing with.

I deal with every police officer like any stranger with a gun - very cautiously.

If you have a loved one that is a member of the police force, it must be very frightening for you as well as frustrating. I hope they are and remain safe.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. "The Police" are an institution. Not a race or gender.

Like "The Republicans" or "The Army" or "The FBI" or "Walmart".

[XboxWarrior]

22. I just simply.......

Hate'm all.

Get over it, and move on to the next thread.

[HardWorkingDem]

34. You know...

I work with a black officer who is constantly trying to recruit more minorities and women and make the organization a better place, so I'll pass along folks like you just "hate" them for strapping on a uniform.

So why don't you get over it, move along and not even bother answering to threads when you have an obvious bias.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. Yeah, I've Seen Those Insane Comments Before Too.

They're always overdramatized and it's best to just laugh them off as the ramblings of lunatics, since that's where they're normally from. Ya know, the "we're a police state! You're all fascists!!! Roarrrrrrr!!! I forgot to take my medication!!!! Fascists!!!! Grumble grumble snarf" types. Forgive them, they're just whacked out of their minds. The overwhelming majority of us here know the value cops serve and respect them for that service. Don't let the loud and insane cries of a few make them seem greater in numbers than they actually are.

I agree with you though that it is sickening to see here though, but I started recognizing that it was better to ignore most of their insanely irrational comments rather than legitimize them by actually responding to them, as if there was something of legitimacy to discuss.

[Barb in Atl]

27. With all due respect...

I looked at your profile and I see that you are close enough to NY to see and hear an awful lot of ugly things that have to do with cops. So you know about Louima, you know about diallo, you know about the off-duty security guard shot when the narc was sniffing around to see if he could get the guy to sell/steer him to drugs. And that's just the stuff I've heard about - I could ask my co-worker from Brooklyn to rattle off a few more.

Rodney King is frickin' passe. How about Malice Green, the guy in Michigan shot and killed and the cops were told the shoot was clean? How about the kid in East Haven (CT) that was shot through his car, from the side, because the cop said the now dead guy was trying to hit him with the car? How about the 92 yr old woman shot to death here in Atlanta on a totally bogus drug raid? How about the girl in Riverside, CA in her car, asleep that was shot through the vehicle? The guy in Cleveland(?) a few months ago that was shot in the back? When I lived in Boston, the Carol D'Amatto Stuart murder case had cops strip searching black men on the streets - and, as well all know, the murderer was her husband. Finally, the guy in Gwinnett County here in GA that died from being tasered until he died of heart failure. Gotta stop - the more I type, the more I remember.

The list is a very, very long one. I understand that there are some truly good police officers out there. When I was raped years ago, the detective that worked with me was kind, compassionate and all business. But I think it is silly to dismiss the real fears and concerns that people have about a group of people that are armed and have very little oversight. The police are not knights in shiny armor out to save us. They are human beings, in danger of making the same mistakes that we all are - except they have a badge, a baton, taser and a gun and we can be arrested for public disturbance or worse at any moment depending upon the mood of that particular peace officer. It's a scary thing.

[HardWorkingDem]

35. Then....

continue to single out those that are deserving of the scorn and not the entire bunch. That's all I'm after and not the blanket "nazi" and "hate" stuff.

Thank you for your fine comments, though. Sincerely.

[LoZoccolo]

26. I think that people feel powerless against the police who can often do whatever they want...

...and feel that the last resort to getting them all to behave themselves is to foment widespread hatred of cops. It's unfortunate but really the only recourse we have against them is to get them to police each other, which they might be motivated to do if they all fell victim to general disdain.

[Solon]

28. Cops can rob you, beat you, rape you, kill you, etc. all without any legal consequences...

and you have the audacity to complain about how they are treated on a fucking message board? :wtf:

[HardWorkingDem]

36. Nah,

what I'm after is some adult, sincere and intelligent debate and discussion, obviously not seen in your reply.

[Solon]

38. Hey, I'm just pointing out what cops get away with...

We had cops in my area that post death threats against people, on the fucking Internet, and do they get prosecuted? No they do not. Just a couple of months ago a cop pulled over a woman who was obviously pregnant, and then handcuffed her and held her on the ground for a fucking hour. No arrest for her, and oddly enough, his tape from that night was edited to remove the hour for the traffic stop. Obvious tampering of evidence, yet does he get prosecuted? No, he does not.

The fact is that the police have a huge amount of power over citizens, and no supervision. I liken it to having 3 year olds left in a house with guns out in the open, and no parents are home.

ON EDIT: You have to understand my POV, I believe all human beings are assholes by default, unless they prove otherwise, its just that cops can actually get away with being assholes more often. That's simply the truth.

[Lex]

29. What about hating lawyers? No one whines then.

And by the way, hating people of a particular occupation IS NOT like hating blacks or women or LGBT people.

It's just not.

[HardWorkingDem]

46. See it a bit different....

Hating a person because of sexual orientation, gender, race, religion or occupation is still hate.

[Lex]

47. Hating murderers is still hate too.

What's your point?

[HardWorkingDem]

48. Come on.....

What I'm trying to get at is a person should be examined for who he or she is and go from there. Under your faulty subject line, one would think it might be inexcusable to hate a father who murders a person who raped and murdered his child.

[catnhatnh]

31. Just for fun and because I think there IS a problem...

...on most police departments-Anyone see anything wrong with the 25 year old kids with the buzz-cuts, mirrored sunglasses, steroid (obvious) build and attitudes???Seems to me they are a sizeable percentage of most departments and inches from goose-stepping....

[leftofthedial]

33. what are you, a pig lover?

:sarcasm:


many forms of bigotry are accepted and practiced openly here. there are a few sacred cows--sex/gender-related and ethnic primarily--but age, caucasians and the male gender, for example, are fair game.

[undeterred]

37. Because we are hypocrites.

[Zynx]

39. I have nothing but contempt for those who direct such vitriolic rhetoric at the police.

Imagine a world without police and law enforcement. Imagine it for just a second. I guarantee you that within one year of that, many DUers would not be alive to post here.

[ixion]

40. it's not simply an abstract prejudice... it's from experience

that most people develop negative attitudes for law enforcement.

Perhaps if there weren't so many bad cops, there would be better attitudes.

[HardWorkingDem]

45. Let me ask you this then.....

let's say a white person, or even a black person, has been robbed and beaten by the opposing color of a person a couple of times. Would it be correct for that person to widely claim he or she hates all of the opposing race?

Or, how about a woman who has been battered by a male. Is it right for her to say, "I hate ALL men."

Now, I don't have an issue with a person saying, "I hate all men who batter women" or "I hate all robbers", just like someone saying, "I hate crooked cops."

But that is not what I am reading here. I am reading things like, "all cops are nazis" and "I hate all cops" and "I distrust all cops."

[ixion]

49. it is generally wrong to generalize

Law enforcement, however, seems to attract the worst kind of people. The ratio of good cops to bad cops is staggering. There are far more bad ones, IMO, than good ones. At some point you get a watershed moment, and the generalizations come out. Not ALL cops are bad, but MOST are, hence the generalization.

As for the nazis thing: it's sad but true: People with severe control issues are very attracted to law enforcement. It goes part and parcel with their penchant to control. So again, the generalizations come out.

Really, and you may not like this opinion, but I believe law enforcement has brought this on itself for a variety of reasons. First, over zealous control freaks armed with a gun or a taser or a night stick is trouble in the making. Then you've got the corrupt cops. You've got cops with anger management issues, cops that are psychotic, racist, bigoted, sadistic... just like others in the world, to be sure; but being in a position of having control over another's life magnifies the aforementioned issues and really brings out the worst in humans.

And first and foremost: cops are human. They are flawed creatures, as are we all. And I think that's what rubs so many people the wrong way.

Also, the judicial and penal systems that cops ultimately throw people into are worse, and this doesn't help matters. These systems are horribly corrupt and inhumane, as a rule, not as an exception. So you've got people who -- in the vast majority of cases -- are just out having a good time, they break a law, a cop sees it, and he busts them. They're thrown into the gaping maw of one or both of these systems, and they ultimately blame the guy who first threw them into the pit.

Now, I'm not talking about violent offenders here. Violent offenders make up the minority in our current prison population. A vast majority -- some 80 percent -- of those incarcerated right now are non-violent offenders. Non-violent offenders don't belong behind bars, in my opinion, but that's where most of them wind up. And the system, being tyrannical and traumatizing, is often where this sentiment comes from. Most people have had at least cursory experience with the system -- from traffic tickets on upward -- and it consistently leaves them feeling violated. And this feeling of violation starts with the cop who put them into the system to begin with. That's where these statements come from.

If you think I'm exaggerating, just go to YouTube and do a search for cops. What you'll find is hours and hours of video of police harassing people, abusing their authority, and ruining people's lives in situations where they weren't really doing much, if anything, wrong. The proof is on tape, which is why cops hate video cameras, because it so often shows them for who they are: angry control freaks.

That said, there are good cops, too. But they're distinctly in the minority, unfortunatley.

Hope this helps.

[HardWorkingDem]

62. You are so wrong....

I am a cop in a department of over 200 officers and the overwhelming majority of them are good people.

I can't express how many of your points are wrong. Take cameras for example, the only cops that hate them are bad cops. You know why? Because the overwhelming majority of behavior caught on tape ends up exonerating cops. I can't tell you how many times "citizens" have told straight up lies about cop behavior and then when asked if they want to see the tape, they shrink away like snow on a hot day.

So I don't need to go to YouTube.

And for those that feel "violated" I do feel for them when they have truly been victimized, however, from my experience, so many people that have been "violated" have usually brought on the reaction by some sort of their behavior. Not only that, these same folks often times seem to leave out when they were "violated" they were under the influence of some sort of substance.

One last thing about YouTube - people so often forget how big this country is and how many encounters are made between cops and citizens. Millions of them, so using YouTube videos as a research method is quite poor. I would also feel safe assuming if I did a search for black criminals (as white ones) I would pull up tons of videos, which gets me back to my original point: after watching a handful of those, would it be justified for a person to say he or she hates black people because they watched negative videos.

[ixion]

64. you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how biased

the fact that you work in law enforcement makes it difficult for you to see from another's perspective outside law enforcement.

I'm glad that you work in such a nice place. I don't know where on Earth that could be, though.

You can tell me I'm 'wrong', but all I'm doing is relating the perspective I've seen and come across. So I'm not 'wrong' in that context, just like you're not 'wrong' in the context of what you believe.

The truth, from my perspective, is that there are many bad cops out there who do a great disservice to your occupation, and you enforce the laws of a hypocritical system that does more to destroy the social fabric than mend it. And you can rationalize that the people you throw into that system deserve it, but that doesn't make it true or even decent, again, in my opinion. But that's your choice, and I'm not judging you for it. I'm simply stating what I've seen over the years. I was a sociology major in college, with an emphasis on collective behavior and deviance, incidentally. That's where a fair amount of experience comes from. And through analyzing both historical and contemporary experiential data comprises the foundation of my beliefs. By and large, my first hand experience with cops comes from things like being threatened with arrest for riding my bike on the side walk, or being at a party, or in some cases just walking down the beach. In this last instance, I was working as a bouncer at a local bar, so I dealt with the police in a quasi enforcement role. On my off night, I happened to be walking down the beach and I saw a group of police walking in the opposite direction. I remarked, very politely, that it was a nice evening -- something very innocuous -- when all of a sudden I've got this angry thug in my face threatening me with arrest for speaking to him. And that's not the only experience I've had like this. So don't blame the public for generalizing in the negative about your profession, because it's guys like that who do more to ruin your credibility than what you perceive to be an unfair prejudice.

But I guess in your profession you're pretty used to telling everyone they're wrong. ;)

[Echo In Light]

55. Muggers/assailants don't have the power of the state

You're making an apples/oranges comparison.

[HardWorkingDem]

70. Why do people...

so often tend to throw in Marxist like stuff....

Sometimes I think many here have an unrealistic fear of so many things.....

[Echo In Light]

52. Ixion nailed it n/t

[Serial Mom]

66. I concur!!

If you have ever had to deal with the law directly, the bad (and power hungry) outweigh the good!

[ismnotwasm]

41. Well in my neighborhood

I always appreciate the police.

It's the crackheads in the corner house I have I problem with. I also have a problem with the pimp who was recently arrested for coercing a 12 year old into prostitution. Very glad the cops caught the guy. I have a problem with the violent asshole who has attacked more than one person, who finally shot a restaurant owner to death. They caught him too. I'm most appreciative. I know how hard police and detectives worked to catch the killer of a gas station owner a few years ago, and despite all the hard work, they never did. I was very happy at the police response to our calls about the drunk who drove up our street running into several cars. I'm always glad when they run the drug dealers out when they get too wild. I live in that kind of neighborhood. A multi-ethnic working class neighborhood. Some of my neighbors were new enough immigrants when they arrived they didn't know how to utilize the police. We helped them. Because where I live, sooner or later, you need to call the police.

Police aren't perfect. But since I'd rather not be the police myself with the type of crime we deal with around here, so I never make broad brush statements about them. I've noticed disturbing trends now and again. When I do, I write or call who ever I need to.

[tyedyeto]

43. Cop threads are nothing compared to the bigotry against .......

Muslims and Islamics in this country.

Cops in the US are cops. All they want is a 'bust' they can record, whether it be a misdemeanor or felony. The more 'busts' they have, the brighter their record.

But the bigotry I have seen here against people of other religions (other than Christian or Jewish) is appalling. And the mods and admins seem to go along with it.

[undeterred]

60. There is bigotry against Catholics who believe that abortion is wrong.

And if you try to support a candidate with those values, well you aren't even allowed that "choice".

[Dawggie]

44. I can only speak from personal experience...

And was recently treated in much the same manner as the woman you reference in your OP for the evil of being depressed.

In earlier years I have also suffered harm at the hands of law enforcement. I have never stolen, harmed another or anything else. I have been guilty of being poor and having a bag of pot though. Most of my incarcerations are from not being able to pay fines or insurance and still needing to go to work to put food on my family's table. I also had a few DUI's in my 40 years of driving that never included an accident or harm to another. Due to the unconstitutional DUI laws today I was charged for a felony DUI after having a glass of wine with dinner and they went back to the 60's and 70's to call it a third DUI. I faced ten years in prison. If I didn't have $20K for legal fees, I would have spent those years behind bars.

a similar thing occurred when I was unfortunate enough to buy a bag of pot from an undercover officer.

Most of the time, the cops that arrested me were fine. However, once in the corrections system, their behaviour can only be described as barbaric as best.

But that's what most americans seem to want.

Isn't it fun to hate people you can look down upon?

[robbedvoter]

50. Stereotyping is bad. However, when based on actual behavior, rather than genetics

it's different that other forms of bigotry you're trying to equate it with.
"All cops are bad" is certainly not on the same level as "all women are emotional" or "all blacks like watermelon" (and I purposefully didn't use the nasty equivalents of those others to illustrate my point)

[Echo In Light]

51. As power corrupts, those in positions of authority are held to higher standards

And transparent scrutiny ...or should be. I've dealt with both good and bad cops ... this is one of those issues, like criticizing the military, that just drives many bugfuck, and I think that knee jerk reaction against those who are anti-authoritarian is indicative of how people are culturally conditioned toward irrational attitudes of submission to authority.

Note the smug tone of those in this thread, and that strip search thread, of those who condemn the ones who don't have favorable views of the police: they're snide, accusatory, the name-calling i.e. nuts/crazy/need meds, etc. Total right winger debate tactics. In other words, in their view, if one is skeptical of authority, there's something wrong with them. And we're talking about prejudice here...?

In my estimation, views on these matters likewise say a great deal about people's individual experiences which shape their perceptions ... so I can't personally say many good things about the police in general. There's waaaay too many incidents of abuse of wielding state/institutional power over the individual. However, if you're someone whose never crossed any lines or broken rules and laws {or pretend you don't}, and you live in fear of all those "bad people" out there, then yeah, I'm sure your view of cops and military are quite exalted.

[noamnety]

56. There is a bit of a difference

between bigotry against oppressed groups of people, and distrust/disdain for people in a position of authority who are oppressing others.

And I believe there is some massive over simplification on your end of what the issues and concerns are.

I have complete disdain for the military, for example, and I understand - and point out - cultural problems within the military, to include rampant sexism, rape, dehumanization of others, and so forth. And I understand that they are trained to dehumanize others, and pressured by their peers to get to a place where they can view human life as cheap, and view some people as less than fully human.

And at the same time, I am a veteran, and I stand in solidarity with the troops when they flip from being the oppressor to the oppressed, when they are in a situation to recognize that they can no longer do what they are asked to do, when the PTSD settles in, or they are injured and can't get care, or when they are stop lossed or the army laughs at them when they try to collect their benefits.

So, here I am with the police. I recognize that there are times when they've come to my aid, times when I've called them, and times when I've connected with them on a human level, even during protests.

But that doesn't negate the culture, which also includes sexism (which I've been a victim of, by police), racism (which my students have been victims of, regularly), authoritarianism to the point where it is violating basic civil rights (which a number of my friends have been victims of).

There is a culture within the police of viewing certain people as not deserving of civil rights or of human rights, and of using their bullshit macho overweaponized badasses to deal with conflict through conquest and control first and foremost when faced with conflict, real or imagined.

I am not overly concerned about the feelings of the poor oppressed armed people in authority when they are blowing away deaf people in my area for not being able to understand spoken language, or when they are confiscating the bicycles of black children, for daring to ride their bikes on the wrong side of 8 mile. When I see more of them speaking out publicly against those actions, instead of staying quiet in an effort to protect their own, I will probably change my mind.

It's something the cops here on DU should ask themselves. When there IS an event where the police have blatantly abused their power and abused civilians, who do you leap to defend? Do you care more that an actual woman was sexually assaulted by police? Or do you care more that those mean nasty people on DU said something mean about policemen on the internets? Which one eats away at you more? The answer to that will give you some insight as to whether you identify more with victims of oppression, or the oppressor. If you identify more with the oppressor, it may give you some insight as to whether you are part of the reason that people on DU have issues with the cop mentality.

[Echo In Light]

58. Outstanding response! n/t

[Richard Steele]

61. Wow, great answer!

:thumbsup:

[HardWorkingDem]

63. No, what I have a problem with is this...

Here is a supposedly group of people who supposedly have higher ideals and enlightenment and then they go off and start saying they "hate" an entire group of people or an entire group of people are Nazis just because of an occupation.

No where am I defending those that deserve no defending. Hate is hate.

And unless you are talking about the woman in the video, I have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to defending cops who are sexually assaulting women.

[noamnety]

65. Yes, I'm talking about the woman in the video

and the fact that this is not an isolated incident, and that when that many police are involved in assaulting a person, it's obvious it's a CULTURE within the force, not individual bad apples, just as abu ghraib was evidence of a culture, not individual bad apples, just as tailhook was evidence of a culture, not individual bad apples.

Where are the police speaking out against this? When there are abuses like this - when there are memos circulating within a police department ordering officers to detain black people seen in their neighborhoods, every police officer who does NOT speak out against it is complicit.

Figure out who you are identifying with. Figure out what you are speaking out against - the oppressed, or the oppressor. Figure out whose rights are being abused.

As much as I identify with being a soldier, you will not see me being outraged if an Iraqi citizen bad mouths troops in the US military. I don't expect them to have to lift a finger defending the honor of those who are oppressing them. It's not the job of those whose rights are being violated to spend an ounce of their energy supporting those who are violating their rights.

The US troops I respect the most are not the ones who puff themselves up with self-righteousness when somebody badmouths "the military" as an entity. The ones I respect the most are the whistle-blowers, the members of the IVAW who go public to discuss the war crimes that they personally witnessed or took part in.

Same with the police. When I see policemen puffing themselves up with self-righteousness and the injustice of people saying mean things about them in reaction to watching police brutality, my reaction is scorn. When I see them coming forward as whistle-blowers, I'll give them the same respect I give to the IVAW. Sadly, I can't think of any cases of police whistle-blowers off the top of my head. Why is that?

[TalkingDog]

57. Between these....

http://policecrimes.com/
http://www.october22.org/StolenLivesProject.html
http://www.copwatch.org/
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/americas/north-america/usa

And the lack of policing of the police, I think people probably find the disconnect between the hypocrisy of "To Protect and Serve" a bit too much to willingly accept without complaint.

When rabidly vocal anti-gay spokespersons are found with a "wide stance" we tend to point it out.
When people who want to "protect" children are caught...well, you get the drift.....

Traditionally, statistics put police in the upper brackets of spousal abuse, alcoholism and suicide.

The prejudice is against the hypocrites and those who cover for them. Find me a website filled with stories about police whistle-blowing the crimes of other police. arresting those police and helping to prosecute those police and I think then we can have a discussion about why there is a problem with unwarranted bigotry.


My Favorite Master Artist: Karen Parker GhostWoman Studios

[LanternWaste]

67. For some odd reason, many at DU believe that while it is bad form

For some odd reason, many of us at DU believe that while it is appropriate, cndoned and "all in good fun" to ridicule someone for something that is chosen, it appears to be off limits to ridicule someone for something they have no control over.

Both lead to the same target-- the denigration and ridicule of a person or people who do not share like ideals. Tolerance is becoming a myth.

[TalkingDog]

68. "Becoming"??? How about: never existed.

We don't tolerate the rantings and ravings of the right, Fred Phelps, Ann Coulter, etc...., they don't tolerate ours.

We don't accept without contradiction or judgement 90% of their thoughts, behaviours or actions. We don't tolerate those whose world views are anathama to our own, nor do we tolerate certain segments of behaviour and thought in those whose views are very similar to our own.

My view is: Let's accept that we are all intolerant. The real trick is to not let it interfere with how you treat others. I may be intolerant but I can say that, much of the time, I am civil.


My Favorite Master Artist: Karen Parker GhostWoman Studios

[LanternWaste]

69. I think the trick is to actually become tolerant

I think the trick is to actually become tolerant rather than simply accepting the corollary. Like all things, it takes patience, perseverance and discipline-- which is why it's neither trendy nor the general reality as we're simply an intellectually lazy country that would rather tune out with our I-pods, console games and big-screeb TV's playing the flavor of the month movie.

Accepting a thing doesn't make that thing any more right, it only makes it popular.

Tolerance does exist... in many people, many forms and in many places. We have but to open our eyes and look for it-- at that point, we're one step closer to achieving it-- but only if we want to.