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Is corporate bureaucracy just as bad as government bureaucracy?

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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 09:47 PM
Original message
Is corporate bureaucracy just as bad as government bureaucracy?
Edited on Sat Feb-02-08 09:47 PM by originalpckelly
:shrug:
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. worse. . business is amoral, . .gov't can be immoral
Gov't can be "brought around". . business can't.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. So you can't start a business with good intentions?
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. sure.. but at it's root, it's raison d'etre, it is a money making
apparatus, with no innate interest in good or evil,
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Interesting.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. A corporation is required by law to maximize profits.
Edited on Sat Feb-02-08 10:11 PM by Marr
The intentions of the business' founders are irrelevant.

Corporations aren't evil-- but they will use every means at their disposal to maximize profit. Government can define exactly what means are available.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. "The intentions of the business' founders are irrelevant."
Edited on Sat Feb-02-08 10:39 PM by originalpckelly
Not all businesses are corporations.

I think corporations aren't exactly evil, but the idea of a corporation is inherently flawed because of bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is a form of planning, and any significant planning in an economy which is not exclusively done on the part of the producer or consumer leads to inefficiency in an economy. If people are busy planning production instead of actually producing, it lowers the number of people actually producing goods/services. For the same amount of production, more money is required, because not only the producer must be paid, but also the planner.

I think this is why corporations suck so much. Wal-Mart is a planned economy within a free-market capitalist system, it's sort of like various communist countries competing against one another.
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progressive_realist Donating Member (669 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. That's not how I see planning's effects
The role of the planners is to reduce the number of producers needed to produce the goods/services. If successful, the productivity increases can be leveraged across enough volume of production to more than offset the cost of the planners. If that wasn't the case, businesses wouldn't hire the planners.

However, one effect of this is to increase the divide between rich and poor. When productive processes are standardized and simplified, the skill level required of workers, and therefore their compensation, falls.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Is designing a factory a form of planning?
Edited on Sat Feb-02-08 11:25 PM by originalpckelly
Is inventing something a form of planning?

The problem with the assumptions you make is that you fail to take into account the fact that they are producing intellectual property, a design of a factory that is simple enough for workers with few skills to work in. The inventor who creates the original idea of a product.

Planning would mainly fall into the category of regulating production. In the sense of, "How many of x product do we need to make?"

Consumption is a market process, if there is a surplus of goods/services, then prices will decline, and profit motive will decline as well. As profit motive declines, the incentive to produce more of the good declines as well.

Beyond that, however, inside a corporation, planning occurs.

Instead of workers' pay floating dependent upon the amount of work they do, but rather upon the amount of hours worked, it is possible to have a surplus of labor. Instead of self-firing employees, who simply lose the will/want to work at an unsuccessful company and leave it, thereby reducing the surplus of labor, it is necessary to have a person figure out how many employees to fire.

In addition, the latency of supply surplus/deficit correction increases, at least theoretically, as the organization increases in size. Meaning that in a large corporation, it is much easier for inefficiency to continue without self-correcting, because there are more resources to use up in a corporation before it is forced to correct the inefficiency for the purpose of survival than say in a small business.

Finally, other tasks such as buying goods in a retail setting, are planning intensive in a big corporation like Wal-Mart, whereas those tasks are usually placed on the owners/managment/workers themselves in a small mom and pop shop. Instead of hiring employees simply to manage the supply of goods, they can simply do it themselves.

The most important difference involves the knowledge needed to plan. Mom and pop work in the store and can easily see, without using too many resources, how many of product x is needed in their store. Corporate bureaucrat in charge of buying at Wal-Mart isn't in the store, but works at a datacenter, and is reliant upon expensive computers to tell them how much of product is on the shelf of their store.

Advanced database technology makes the task of remote planning easier, but it is more expensive than just having mom and pop know what's on their shelves.

This is just one example of what I mean to say.

I think our system exists because rich people want no alternatives, and they've fixed the market to prevent these other ideas from succeeding. There are so many unfair pro-corporate laws in our nation, that the tables are stacked against poor old mom and pop, even though they may be a freer, more democratic system of capitalism.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. Yes just look at Comcast or some other dickhead group.
they control millions and have lousy service.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I agree with you, and I think our connie friends are total hypocrites...
they spend endless hours bitching and moaning about "government bureaucracy" when corporations are just as bad.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. Wait -- what was the difference again?
:shrug:
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JosephSchmo Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
12. both can be as bad as they want to be except the government bureaucracy cannot be avoided ...
while corporate bureaucracy can ussually be avoided.
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sutz12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
13. Corporate is worse....it comes in so many different flavors...
Generally, the government just comes in one.

:)
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