A liberalism that empathizes with corporate power: is this possible?

[synesthesia]

For example, let's take Ken Lay.

Ken Lay was most likely a narcissist. Now his narcissism was not by any means, his own fault. Object relations theory (or whatever) would trace the etiology to improper maternal attachment and such.

Now given his narcissism, and lack of aesthetic attractiveness to other humans, what choice does he really have? He must reconcile his conflicting sense of entitlment and physical humilation with the only status symbol remaining for ugly old white men; money. Thus, Enron goes it's natural way.

I don't mean to be simplistic, but it can be useful to use him as a symbolic point. You may chose others.

Nonetheless, I have no doubt, that Ken Lay suffered internally more than the vast majority of humans. Unable to love, unable to connect, ultimately empty, he died having never experienced true joy.

When liberals fight for the advocacy of the mentally ill who are prosecuted for crimes commited while psychotic...I do not believe they follow through with the full trajectory needed.

We see schizophrenia as a reasonable means to remove blame from someone. Why not narcissism? Why the arbritrary line in the sand between different psychopathologies? Why not antisocial personality disorder?

Ultimately, the brain is an organ, much like the pancreas. If the pancreas can not produce insulin, we view the individual as sick. Blaming a brain that can not produce empathy, is much like cursing the diabetic who is ill.

George Bush, Dick Cheney, etc.. all mentally ill individuals who suffer greatly.

Is it intellectually honest to curse at them? Perhaps more humane would be to assess the social pathology of culture that breeds such mental ills (or the selfish nature of all organisms in general?)

I don't mean to sound haughty or arrogant in this post, especially with my low post count; and I realize my thoughts are not very complex or well formed.

Just interested in a discussion of this.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

1. My guess on the social pathology of culture that breeds such mental ills

"Greed is good"

[NastyRiffraff]

2. "Is it intellectually honest to curse at them?"

Well, yeah. The harm they've done individuals and to the country is incalcuable. Serial killers, child pornographers, and rapists undoubtedly have mental illnesses, and "suffer." They deserve cursing.

I have no problem with studying mental illness and its effects; done right it can be useful. But I won't waste my sympathy on scum like Lay, Bush, Cheney, etc, when I can give it to the poor, homeless, and people who have actually been harmed by these sufferers of mental illness.

[synesthesia]

4. *

Why are they scum? If alien races were to look down on our planet, and observe our behaviors, they would likely see us all as opportunistic and organisms who move towards maximum self interest in all situations. They would not differentiate between Mother Theresa or Adolf Hitler, in my opinion.

However, those who have secure attachments to other human beings, gratify themselves with the joys of family and love.

A narcissist, for example, to weave into my original post, lacks an inability for true intimacy -> and is therefor warped into a different set of priorities.

Scum implies some level of blame, which implies free will, which is not alltogether a realistic notion.

[ixion]

6. how many thousands of people do you have to kill before you become scum... if it's more than

a million, than BushCo most certainly are the lowest form of scum.

[synesthesia]

7. *

I've never even looked upon even Adolf Hitler with anything but sadness for the internal torture he must have suffered having to wake up as himself every morning. .

I don't mean to say this as some boast, 'im more liberal than you', or some bullshit. It's just hard to read the biography of a guy who was that messed up in the head, desperate to find some type of rationalization for his lack of genetic fitness, constantly struggling to be accepted by others, etc., without realizing he was an unfortunate soul.

[ixion]

8. There's a old parable that fits here...

I've heard it told with a variety of different animals, but I'll use a snake and a turtle.

A snake wanted to get across the river. He came across a turtle, and asked him if he might take him across. The turtle was suspicious, but the snake convinced him that it would not be in its best interest to bite the turtle, lest they both drown. The turtle finally agreed, and the snake got on his shell and they started to cross. Half-way across, the snake bit the turtle. As they were both drowning, the turtle asked why the snake had bit him.

"Well, you knew I was a snake," the snake replied.

The moral of the story being that animal do what is in their nature, and all the sympathy in the world will not change that.

[synesthesia]

9. *

I loved the parable :). But parables are great in general.

I did not mean to imply that, given a Hitler, it wouldn't be better to kill him for the good of humanity.

Neither do I think Bush shouldn't be put in prison, or possibly excuted to make an example out of for the better of society.

My contention is, you kill Hitler. But you're not happy you did it. You are happy that society is better off for it. But there is no animosity towards the man. Just another unfortunate thing that had to happen.

If you follow what I'm saying.

For example, I think it's sad pedophiles can't control their desires. But they still should be dealt with harshly for the good of children.

[ixion]

10. I agree with that: humanity is full of misfortune

we are tragically flawed creatures, and nothing would make me happier than to see our society become one of tolerance. I think it would go far in removing the bad people from the group. Bad people are created for the most part, not born. Had Hitler had a different life, maybe he would have turned out better. If pedophiles hadn't been molested by their parents, maybe they wouldn't have become pedophiles. For me, it really boils down to control. If we weren't so obsessed with controlling others, maybe we wouldn't have so many people with control fetishes and phobias. However, we seem to be a species hell-bent on control. And as long as we're in that mode, we're going to have bad people clawing their way to the top of the pile so that they can control others, which simply perpetuates the behavior from generation to generation.

So in that sense, we agree completely.

[synesthesia]

5. also

On average, I'd say it's fair to conclude the mental suffering (the cruelest of all), is much higher among individuals like Dick Cheney, than the average poor and downtrodden individual.

The poor usually retain a sense of family and community.

The narcissist enjoys very very little in life, and perhaps lives the most miserable existence of all, regardless of socio-economic status.

Perhaps they are in need of the most nourishment and sympathies.

[iamjoy]

3. As Mary Crawford Says

"selfishness must always be forgiven, you know, because there is no hope for a cure"
from Jane Austen's Mansfield Park