Myers-Briggs Type Indicator....16 different personalities...where are the top 4 candidates?

[opihimoimoi]

and what the hell is Bush?

Cheney?

Mitts

Hillary

Obama

and McCain?

For those unaware of the MBTI...please google the name

We should require all candidates to take the test..any of the updated ones would suffice

This would take place in lieu of a "debate"...live for all to see....with booth cams to record their answers and for us to watch them...

Why the Hell not?

[lvx35]

1. Bush: ESFJ

Cheney: ISTJ
Hilary: ENFP
Obama: ENTP

Just my wild guesses!

edit: Bush is probaby really an ESTJ...a "guardian" rather than a "caregiver" but I just can't apply the label "thinking" to him for some reason.... :)

[opihimoimoi]

5. sounds good for me...cept for Hillary

she is a leader type...in control....I not sure of the Intuitive part.....

[lvx35]

8. What do you think?

Think she's a thinker? Or more of in introvert? Or an 's', I think I could see that for SURE. I had to admit using the "inspirer" type to describe her seemed weird, more like Obama is supposed to be, but Obama is clearly a thinker in my book.

[opihimoimoi]

16. Obama seems to be an Innovator.....an Intuitive one...also a judger/thinker

all this does not mean he will come up with the right answers to our many national probs...but he is way better than the Pubs.

Hillary seems not to be an INNOVATOR....which in my op...comes from the iNtuitive side ....either one will do for our president.

[amandabeech]

132. I'm not sure that Hillary is a true extrovert, and I think that she is not a strong p.

Shes willing to make decisions. Bill was a P 'til it hurt. He I think was EN?P. She might be INTJ.

[Recursion]

11. P's rarely make it to be President nowadays

And obviously I's don't (Coolidge may have been the last one, though Nixon was possibly an INTP like me).

That said, other than for broad characterizations of psychic energy (I know that sounds new-agey but it is apparently a real term in psychology) the MBTI should probably be taken with a grain of salt.

I would definitely peg * as an ESTJ ("guardian" as you say, but also "fratboy"), from my armchair psychology. The T/F divide is a controversial one, particularly involving questions of sex (the current instrument actually gives women something like 10 additional F points so that the notion that women are more often F's will keep being "proven"). I'd call Hillary an ENFJ, and Bill is probably the biggest ENFP in the world -- another reason I think Hillary is a J is that dual-P and dual-J couples tend to be very very difficult and their marriage seems pretty strong, tabloids aside. So Bill also is an counterexample to my claim in the subject about P's, I guess.

[opihimoimoi]

17. MBTI is almost 70 years old....in many ways outdated but still in use

as a research thingy, and for corp interests with their personnel.

But then you know this already...lol

P's need their turn too....(smile)

[fightthegoodfightnow]

138. Unfortunately......

............ that grain of salt is used to discriminate against people. The notion that you or anyone cannot be President because of the conclusions of a 90 question psycho test is a threat to democracy.

[Demeter]

18. Bush Is STFU

"Psychopath" is not in the Briggs-Meyer List

[Pacifist Patriot]

20. LOL! I like your acronym

[Rabrrrrrr]

31. I would guess Shrubbie as an ESFJ as well.

I would think conservatives would tend toward SJ (literal, rigid, unable to see the big picture, non-holistic, "if it can't be described in three words it ain't worth thinking cuz I can't understand it, and if I can't undersstand it no one can because all my experiences are universally normative" and "If it changes, it's wrong") and liberals toward NP (big picture, nuanced, flexible, holistic thinking, ability to change mind based on new data or new streams of thought, mind always on, always looking for new linkages and intuitive leaps into new worlds of thought)

[Rabrrrrrr]

33. I go with some others: I think Hillary is an "S"

And MBTI needs a special category for Cheney, the addition of a lowercase "e", for "evil", and "p", for "psychotic", before each ranking.

So he'd be a pISeTJ

Shrubbie is a pEpSepFpJ

[opihimoimoi]

85. Rabrrrrrr....You Go Man......Evil and psychotic....I love it....

[jgraz]

117. DAMMIT

wrong spot :grr:

[Rabrrrrrr]

128. Okay - "I damn that spot!"

:rofl:



:hi:

[fightthegoodfightnow]

131. Yikes

.... you need help.

[DireStrike]

163. It's easy when the other choice is feeling

since he's clearly a sociopath.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

2. Why the hell not?

Because there's no way to assure they'd answer the questions truthfully. They'd give answers to profile themselves as whatever the polls tell them people want most.

[opihimoimoi]

3. The newer personality tests are awfully difficult to cheat/fool

[Fire Walk With Me]

4. Bush, Cheney, Mitts and McCain are SHIT. A lesser-known temperament.

Obama and Clinton are OKAY, but not BEST, like Kucinich.

Jokes aside, the temperament literature is pretty compelling stuff.

[opihimoimoi]

7. The BMTI would reveal their shittiness big time....LOL

[fightthegoodfightnow]

6. Myers-Briggs is FASCISM

It presumes that there are 16 'types' of people and I find it repugnant and a tool of corporate America to control and restrict employment and by extension ............. economic freedom.

[opihimoimoi]

9. It has been updated....it is used mostly for therapists in Healing those in need.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

10. Mostly?

Hardly. It's used as an employment test TODAY to 'match' people with corporate 'culture' and it does a disservice to both the individual and the corporation.

[opihimoimoi]

13. If its good for Corps/Big Biz. then it should be good for our "Leaders"

[fightthegoodfightnow]

22. ANOTHER FALSE ASSUMPTION

It's NOT good for corporations or big business and it's an indictment of both.

Go back and re-read my post. No where will you find ANY statement suggesting it's good for business. In fact, it's just the opposite. It diminishes the value of human investment and development as a corporate asset and it implies that the game ends before it starts.

[Recursion]

14. The use of MBTI (and indeed most psychological instruments) in employment is odious

And is a miscarriage of psychology. Worse still, the instruments are often given by people totally unqualified to give them, which makes their scientific value nil.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

23. AGREE COMPLETELY

It's ridiculous. it's a fabrication and suggests that personal development and the business of investing in our greatest asset (people) is dependent on the false assumption that what they do and future behavior is determined at birth.

[Extend a Hand]

69. I disagree

I work for a company that had the MBTI given as a part of a team-building exercise. It was interesting and I think helpful to learn how to communicate with some people more effectively.

[Rabrrrrrr]

27. You have a gross misunderstanding of what MBTI is, then.

I base that assumption on the post to which I am responding, and to other posts of yours.

MBTI does not try to categorize people into one of 16 types in an absolutist and eternal sense - it only identifies tendencies and patterns of behavior and decision making, and in that sense, it is an extremely POWERFUL tool.

But it does "label" once and for all.

I've been using it for more than a decade in group settings, and it has been a fantastically usable and powerful tool in group dynamics and critical self-reflection.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

52. More BS

You write: 'MBTI does not try to categorize people into one of 16 types in an absolutist and eternal sense - it only identifies tendencies and patterns of behavior and decision making, and in that sense, it is an extremely POWERFUL tool.'

A powerful tool based on a false assumption of it's accuracy that ends up EXCLUDING people.

You have a gross misunderstanding of what people are worth.

[Rabrrrrrr]

79. Excluding people? How?

I've yet to take the test, or know anyone who took the test, that had a result of "you should be excluded".

Excluded from what? Humanity? Shame? Life? School? Marriage? Civil rights? Ability to take out a loan? Love? Shoes? Electricity?

Instead of blowing out wild and broad accusations, why not be specific and tell us precisely what you mean?

I think people are worth a hell of a lot. How is that a misunderstanding? And when did I ever make mention of what I think they're worth to begin with? Your logic is laughable, if you somehow construe a conclusion that I think people are worthless based solely on the date of my first post. It doesn't compute. Since I can't imagine that you are dumb enough to make that conclusion, I can only assume that you think people are worthless, and therefore you find my estimation that people are highly valuable to be a gross misunderstanding. How sad for you.

Excludes people, my ass.

:eyes:

:rofl:

[fightthegoodfightnow]

83. Employment

.

[Rabrrrrrr]

90. How? Where? When? Under what circumstances, in what way?

Until you offer any kind of real specific and rational analysis, you're just pissing and shitting on yourself while we laugh at you.


Judging by your posts here, I think you just like being a victim ("excluded from job!", "I can't do my hiring job because of it!"), and you've found MBTI to be your bete noir, instead of actually doing something or pulling your head out of the comfort of your victim sand.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

94. Well...........

.................... I'll leave you to characterize what I wrote as 'pissing and shitting' on myself.

Personally, I give as much weight to your opinion on the matter as the conclusions you have come to on this board.

As I wrote, I took the test decades ago in college and have succeeded in business despite the test's conclusions my behavior in high school was a predictor of a career I had not started.

[Rabrrrrrr]

98. Considering MBTI has nothing to do with rating career possibility,

considering it has nothing to do with rating intelligence, considering it has nothing to do with one's ability to succeed or not succeed, considering it has nothing to do with one's interpersonal skills, ambition, psychoses, or anything other than your preferred methods of decision making and interpersonal relation (entirely different from SKILLS, btw):

It is quite clear you are talking about another test entirely.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

101. Never Said It Did Rate Intelligence or Ambition or Psychoses

........... suggesting the conclusions you draw are not unlike those of the test you rely on.

[Rabrrrrrr]

110. I never said you did say it. Now, why don't you respond to the stuff

that you said that I *am* challenging you on.

Oh, that's right - you can't, because you're either too full of shit and you know it, or you're too full of bile and love of being a victim, that you won't.

There comes a time in argument that you have to admit that you are wrong - please admit that whatever test it is that you are talking about, that you hate so much, isn't the MBTI, because there is no way in hell that the test you are pissing and moaning about is an MBTI.

What you are pissing and moaning about is some kind of "what color is my parachute" test, or a kind of psychological profile/aptitude test, or other ridiculous and quite flawed test. But it is not the MBTI.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

113. Right ......... and that's why you brought it up

......... because it's irrelevant and has nothing to do with what you are challenging me on. Talk about being dishonest. I'll leave you to characterize me as 'full of shit'. Two can play that game.

You have your opinion and I have mine. Mine doesn't rely on a test you have to take.

[Rabrrrrrr]

116. No, I brought it ALL up because it is ALL relevant.

Learn to read, please.

That is clearly your most crippling problem in this thread.

My opinion does not rely on a test, either. To imply so shows an utter lack of comprehension of the construction and flow of my argument, which argument has been, for the most part, a simple brushing aside of your fallacious readings of my post and continued attempt to derail the conversation into irrelevancies and silliness.

What would be interesting is if you ever actually addressed the content of a post. I'd like to see that once. I imagine it would be intriguing.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

119. YAWN

You write: 'My opinion does not rely on a test, either."

Your employment decisions don't rely on that test?

Either they do or they don't. Make up your mind.

[Rabrrrrrr]

122. Why would my employment decisions rely on that test?

:shrug:

Yet another sign that you are entirely clueless as a reader. I've never, ever said that I use MBTI in employment decisions. Nor have I ever said that I do not.

Your conclusion - and I honor you by calling it a "conclusion" - is utterly without foundation.

Please learn to read.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

125. I Leave You to the Insults

Myers-Briggs tests are used in employment decisions.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

123. Your Profile

....... says your hobby is 'helping people find their own worth.'

I'm kind of curious to know if you do that with a Myers-Briggs test, because quite frankly, I think people are worth FAR MORE than what a ......... gosh........what.......... 90 question test concludes.

[Rabrrrrrr]

124. As I and others have said repeatedly, but which your lack of reading skill denies,

MBTI says NOTHING about a person's "value" or "worth".

Goddamn, you're annoyingly obtuse.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

127. Why Exactly are You So Upset

If you have concluded that I do not know how to read, why are you responding to my posts?

Your conclusions are not unlike those of Myers-Briggs. Perhaps you are not aware the ability to make a post requires the ability of someone to read.

LOL.

[Extend a Hand]

40. That would be an unlikely use

of a useful tool for learning about yourself.

[EstimatedProphet]

89. That's a misinterpretation

Everyone is each of those 16 types. MBTI just says which one is the most comfortable for the individual. If anyone is using it for hiring practices then they have no idea what they are doing.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

136. And Yet It is Used in Hiring Practices

That's all that needs to be said, besides it being wrong.

[EstimatedProphet]

150. If it is, it shouldn't be

[Freddie Stubbs]

159. Fascism? What in the world does this have to with a political ideology?

Or do you simply label everything you don't like as 'fascism.'

[synesthesia]

12. *

..

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

47. I must say synthesia, your * posts with flashed messages are an intriguing self promotion tool.

You're so avant garde.

[Hekate]

15. Hillary seems to be an INTJ -- see this Christmas Day thread at DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2528958

The whole thread makes for an interesting read, although I had to wonder why so many of us were at DU on Christmas. ;-) Part of the OP is below.

Hekate
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CorpGovActivist
Tue Dec-25-07 11:59 AM

Marching to Her Own Kazoo: Why Cranial Clinton May Leave Some Feeling Iced Over

As an INTJ myself, I had to chuckle when I saw Michael Melcher's apologia for Hillary, "the misunderstood INTJ."

According to TypeLogic's description of the INTJ: "To outsiders, INTJs may appear to project an aura of 'definiteness,' of self-confidence. This self-confidence, sometimes mistaken for simple arrogance by the less decisive, is actually of a very specific rather than a general nature; its source lies in the specialized knowledge systems that most INTJs start building at an early age. ... INTJs can rise to management positions when they are willing to invest time in marketing their abilities as well as enhancing them, and (whether for the sake of ambition or the desire for privacy) many also find it useful to learn to simulate some degree of surface conformism in order to mask their inherent unconventionality."

Keirsey describes the INTJ as the Mastermind type.

Melcher declares that Hillary is an introvert. I'd daresay he's not only right, but that she's a deeper introvert than most, making it harder for her to "simulate some degree of surface conformism," and - by extension - connect.

MORE at link

[Pacifist Patriot]

19. Because I'm not sure what it would tell us.

Is there a personality type scientifically demonstrated to exhibit a natural inclination to good sound leadership?

I wouldn't mind a psychological assessment being required as part of the medical exam candidates take, but I'm not sure what a Myers-Briggs assessment would do in the way of enlightening us or helping us make a decision.

Personality type is not indicative of intellectual acumen, ethical behavior, sound judgment or mental and emotional health.

Sorry, but instead of "why the hell not?" I see this as a "why bother." Other than perhaps for curiosity sake and future rounds of trivial pursuit. Might be cool if we ended up with a president who shares my M-B type, but that's about it. Then again, I'd be interested in seeing who their daemon is at goldencompass.com. ;)

[Extend a Hand]

43. I don't think there is one type that makes a "good leader"

I think there are clearly types that are more likely to be able to win an election in this country where the political process has de-evolved into a popularity contest.

There might be a type that is better than another in a particular situations.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

21. What the hell for?

So more wannabees who got their degrees from reading Psychology Today can babble on about stuff they don't understand?

If you want to put candidates in booths on teevee, let's do fundraising this way...candidate who grabs the most dough gets the nomination...

http://lasvegasvegas.com.nyud.net:8090/moneymachine.jpg

[Cleita]

24. I always had to take tests like that to get a job, even a

lie detector test for one job. Yes, it wasn't mandatory but those who refused got their resumes tossed in the waste basket. So, why shouldn't we demand some minimum of testing for competence and personality from our elected leaders?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

25. Because It's a FALSE Assumption

It assumes the conclusions drawn are absolute and definitive before the person has actually done one thing.

[Cleita]

28. No it doesn't.

I used to give I.Q. type tests to applicants when I was a manager. The test really didn't measure for I. Q. but for the ability level to do certain jobs. They were only guide lines and I sometimes didn't use the results of the test if I liked what else I saw, but I must say that they were pretty accurate in helping me to screen applicants because the people who didn't measure up on the test usually had a harder time learning and doing the job and I often had to adapt their responsibilties to take advantage of their good points and minimize those duties that they couldn't handle.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

32. Only Guide Lines ?

Right.......... it ONLY precludes someone from being hired at most companies regardless of your interpretation of it being a 'guide line'

It's another example of economic tyranny.

More importantly, it denies the potential of everyone and reduces a major corporate asset to a ridiculous test.

[Cleita]

35. Well, it really helps avoid hiring someone who can't do the

job that you will have to fire a couple of weeks later. That saves a lot of trauma for both employer and employee. Also, those tests aren't like school where you get a grade. All they do is screen you for jobs you can or cannot do. I have hired people for a job that was not the job they came in for but that they were better suited to. Since most entry level positions that don't require a degree pay the same initially, it's not a matter of someone getting less money and often they might make more because that department is union.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

38. Self Deleted............ Posted Twice

Not sure why.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

39. You Are Smarter

You write: 'Well, it really helps avoid hiring someone who can't do the job that you will have to fire a couple of weeks later."

Right.......... the test is smarter than you are making YOU irrelevant.

Got it.

Thanks for making my point.

.

[Cleita]

44. No I haven't make your point at all.

Testing is required for a lot of jobs. I would not get an office job in the past, if I didn't pass a typing test. This is something you don't learn on the job. An inability to multi-task for some jobs would show up on a test and not in an interview. The only way you would know is after you hired the person and then had to fire them because they couldn't. I will speak only for myself, but testing really cut down the number of new hires who had to be fired for not having the capability of doing the job. I know where you are coming from and it's about drug testing and quite honestly I'm on board with you there and on the lie detector test as well. These are two tests that should never be administered to applicants IMHO and I do consider them a violation of civil liberties.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

45. Nonsense

A typing test is a SKILL test........ not a 'personality' test.

You write: 'An inability to multi-task for some jobs would show up on a test and not in an interview. The only way you would know is after you hired the person and then had to fire them because they couldn't..'

NONSENSE. You mean to tell me the ONLY way to tell if someone can multi-task is to accept the results of a test you did not write? Give me a break.

As for drug testing and lie detector tests, I do indeed hold them with the same esteem.

Corporate facism.

[Cleita]

53. Corporations are fascist. I learned that they first day I ever went

to work, that all the BS I was taught in school about human rights and freedoms ended on their threshhold. However, it seems you are against personality tests. Well, you can lobby your elected representatives to write a law to ban them. I can think of better things to lobby elected representatives for though like repealing the Taft-Hartley Act that would go much further in employee rights than any disgust with tests.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

56. How About You Just Being Smarter than the Test You Rely on to Define Others

.











.

[Cleita]

62. What part of those tests are guidelines, didn't you get?

People will get hired many times in spite of what the tests show because of their background, experience and because there isn't a better candidate at the time. It's not written in stone. It's just one tool the hirer uses to screen applicants and if you were ever on that side of the desk you might be surprised at the number of people who will apply for a job they have no ability to do like a job that requires writing skills and not being able to spell.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

65. The Part that PRESCREENS People from Being Allowed to be Interviewed by Me

.




















.

[Cleita]

70. Like why wouldn't you? If you are the boss you can interview

anyone you like and hire anyone you like. Isn't that how it goes? Your screener only lines up the columns for you. If you are really the boss you don't have to follow them. If not, then you aren't the boss.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

72. Real World

The application never never makes my desk because someone else buys into this cr*p.

[Cleita]

77. So don't you have a boss you can go to and complain to?

I have never worked for a company that a department manager couldn't override personnel and hire someone they wanted to if they were indeed the boss. I have even been hired because I met someone at a party and it turned out I had the experience that they wanted. I was simply sent to personnel to process paper work, and yes take tests no one looked at and given a job because the department head or manager wanted me. So maybe you need to lock horns with those who can do something about it or at least find out why they don't let you.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

82. Why is It Relevant if it is

..... ignored even by you?

[Cleita]

73. Obviously, you have issues that have nothing to do with normal

testing. I don't know who pissed on your cornflakes but maybe you need to take them to people who can do something about any abuses that have been heaped on you and that could be a good lawyer. Corporations live in fear of being sued by their employees if they have abused their power.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

100. NONSENSE

Skill.......... that's right......... skill tests are more than relevant. Skill tests are based on the acquisition of knowledge which can be learned by anyone after they are born.

They are not based on LA LA notions that a test written by someone who has NO knowledge of my profession is able to discern better than I was SKILLS are necessary for a job they know nothing about.

If you believe that corporations 'live in fear', you do not live in the US of A as evidenced by the actions of ............ gosh........... Enron, Halliburton just to name a few.

[Recursion]

26. If you had to take an actual MBTI, and it wasn't administered by a psychologist...

...then the employer was violating the Institute for Type Development's trademark, and violating psychological ethics.

I'm always astounded that businesses would never let an unqualified person give a potential employee a blood test, but apparently think somebody with an associate's degree in HR is qualified to administer a psychological instrument.

[Cleita]

30. You know very big companies like airlines and others where

customer contact is essential to the businesses rely on these for obvious reasons and they are administered by HR people, however, most have a consultant or trained professional that evaluates the tests before HR takes action on them.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

34. What a CROCK of Sh*t

You write: 'rely on these for obvious reasons'

Please do tell me what the OBVIOUS reasons are if we are engaged in a discussion of their validity?

Anyone working in a major company knows HR is the FILTER for all applicants.

[Cleita]

37. I can tell from your anger that you would make a crappy

flight attendant even if you were a raving beauty with fabulous other skills.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

41. I Rest My Case

Anyone drawing such a conclusion from a message board HAS to rely on such a test because they can't think on their own.

What if I told you I was a flight attendant?

Oh never mind, that's outside of your realm of your possibilities.

[Cleita]

58. Are you? Do tell. Don't be shy. Of course on said message

board you can say anything. Why don't you just tell me that you are a Constitutional scholar like others have tried to tell me with no credentials to really back it up.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

63. Of Course.......

...........it's irrelevant, because you have decided based on a MESSAGE board that I could never be a flight attendant.

No wonder you need to rely on a Meyers test.

[ChazII]

126. That was my very first thought

while reading the section on validity.

[knitter4democracy]

51. It's done all the time.

My college did it to all incoming frosh. We sat in a room at orientation and took it like any other test. Then, we had to each go individually to Sensei Bud (he also taught the college Karate class), the counsellor with a master's, to get it interpreted for us. From what I saw, he used it to find new clients and sniff out who wasn't solidly hetero, since he believed he could cure the gay. :eyes:

People misuse that test constantly. And wasn't there some report awhile back showing that the same person taking the same test at different times of the day or month came up with different responses? How is that usable?

[Cleita]

67. Why didn't you report that abuse to administration?

Why would he get the tests anyway? Any person can abuse a situation if they are assholes and you need to make sure their supervisors know about it.

[knitter4democracy]

75. They condoned and required it.

Small Christian college. Everyone knew everyone else, and the administration knew exactly what he was doing.

[Cleita]

78. There's your problem. A private college. You can

change colleges you know. I know that these Christian colleges abuse a lot of power. I know because I went to one too.

[knitter4democracy]

87. We graduated ages ago. And yes, they abuse their power.

Which school did you go to? Hubby and I went to Mt. Vernon Nazarene in Ohio.

[Cleita]

91. Mine was Catholic. I'd rather not say because I might

ruffle a few DU feathers, but the system isn't any different.

[knitter4democracy]

97. I understand.

:hug: It's amazing what we can survive, right? ;)

[fightthegoodfightnow]

68. BRAVO........... and Well Said

You write: 'People misuse that test constantly. And wasn't there some report awhile back showing that the same person taking the same test at different times of the day or month came up with different responses? How is that usable?'

Well said.

[Recursion]

156. Really quick...

And wasn't there some report awhile back showing that the same person taking the same test at different times of the day or month came up with different responses?

I'm not an MBTI apologist, but I would like to say that that phenomenon has never been shown when the instrument is delivered and assessed as recommended with a clinical psychologist administering it.

[knitter4democracy]

161. Oh. So, just when it's being used improperly. Got it.

Thanks! :hi:

[Freddie Stubbs]

160. You are free to make that demand

Go ahead, make it.

[DFLforever]

29. My Guess

Obama - an ENTJ possibly.

and Hillary an I*TJ don't know whether she's an S or an N.

I do think she's an introvert - which is why she has so much trouble projecting her personality - I's aren't comfortable doing so.

[Extend a Hand]

36. The Keirsey site

Keirsey built on Myers and Briggs work, looking for commonalities amoung the sixteen types:

has Bill Clinton as an Artisan Performer (ESFP)
http://www.keirsey.com/presidents.aspx


Year Winner Temperament Loser Temperament
1960 Kennedy Artisan Promoter Nixon Guardian
1964 Johnson Artisan Promoter Goldwater Rational
1968 Nixon Guardian Supervisor Humphrey Idealist
1972 Nixon Guardian Supervisor McGovern Guardian
1976 Carter Guardian Supervisor Ford Guardian
1980 Reagan Artisan Performer Carter Guardian
1984 Reagan Artisan Performer Mondale Guardian
1988 Bush-41 Guardian Protector Dukakis Guardian
1992 Clinton Artisan Performer Bush-41 Guardian
1996 Clinton Artisan Performer Dole Guardian
2000 Bush-43 Artisan Promoter Gore Rational
2004 Bush-43 Artisan Promoter Kerry Idealist

A great article on Keirsey
http://www.pomona.edu/Magazine/pcmfl05/FSkeirsey.shtml

[fightthegoodfightnow]

42. How Sad that the Human Experience Can Be Reduced to FOUR

.........get that..... four ............. experiences.

Who needs 16 personalities when you can have FOUR !!!!

"building" indeed.

LOL.

Whatever.

[Extend a Hand]

46. It's not at all about "human experience"

Kiersey's work was about temperament, and finding effective ways to communicate with each other.

I've never heard of either the Keirsey test or the Myers-Briggs test being used as a criteria for hiring (which certainly doesn't mean that it has never been used that way). I did once apply for a job that required applicants to take the MMPI (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory) which is a whole different thing.

Why does this particular test upset you so? have you ever taken it?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

48. Real World

You write: 'I've never heard of either the Keirsey test or the Myers-Briggs test being used as a criteria for hiring'

Laughing so hard it hurts.

[Extend a Hand]

50. give an example n/t

[fightthegoodfightnow]

55. Prescreening

.


















.

[Extend a Hand]

57. give an example of a company that uses MB or Keirsey for prescreening

[Extend a Hand]

60. MB and Keirsey are *NOT* personality tests

they are temperament sorters.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

61. I Bet You Believe That Too

Truly I can't help but laugh.

"Temperament sorters"?

Do you read that in the pre-work on the test?

[Extend a Hand]

66. Yes, and I didn't see anything particularly offensive

please paste what you found offensive?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

71. It Excludes People

.........based on the mistaken notion that it is relevant or accurate.

Challenge something you read sometime.

[Extend a Hand]

74. These tests are not designed to be used for "pre-screening"

I would be really suprised if that were the case. There are personality tests that are used for prescreening. I do not believe that these tests are (or should be). I do not think that the use of personality tests or genetic tests or drug tests for that matter should be used to restrict employment. I do think that you are confusing these tests with something else.

Please give one example of a company that uses either MB or Keirsey for preemployemnt screening.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

76. Imagine That

.......... they are misused.

[Extend a Hand]

84. I still haven't seen you come up with even *ONE* example

of that use of these tests. Just one company name.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

88. Unfortunately..........

.......... my employment contract made prior to my company using such tactics precludes me from discussing the matter even anomalously on a message board.

Fascism indeed.

Of course, I could quit, but the fact that so many companies use and misuse this test is more evidence that they are diminishing the value of someone based on a test whose conclusions are suspect at best.

[Rabrrrrrr]

92. Then don't do it anomalously. Do it deliberately.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

95. Which Has Nothing To Do with What I Wrote

........... not unlike your test being a predictor of future behavior on something not real.

[Rabrrrrrr]

99. You're the one who wrote "anomalously".

Don't sit there and lie that you didn't say it.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

102. What the F*ck?

If I'm not going to violate my contract anonymously, what makes you think I would violate it intentionally?

Anyone who draws the conclusion that I have lied about posting anonymously from that message post needs to rely on Meyers to make decisions for him or herself.

[Rabrrrrrr]

105. No, you lied about saying "anomalously".

Please, learn to read - looking through this entire thread, I see that you seem to have difficulty reading what people actually have written, preferring instead to read what you wish they had written.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

109. This is What I Wrote

My employment contract made prior to my company using such tactics precludes me from discussing the matter even anomalously on a message board.

WHAT PART OF THAT IS A LIE?

[Rabrrrrrr]

111. None of that is a lie. Please learn to read.

What IS a lie is you saying that you did not say "anomalously".

For fuck's sake, man, you quoted yourself saying it.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

115. If You Have a Point

...... you haven't made it.

[Rabrrrrrr]

120. I have made it repeatedly - the fact that you don't see it, and that you admit it,

only serves to further expose yourself as ignorant, willingly obtuse, and not worth any further dialog.

And, please note, that I compliment you highly by deigning to name what we've had as a "dialog". It wasn't - it was entirely one-sided, favoring, of course, my side - but so as not to leave any bad feelings between us, and to allow you to save face, I shall publicly declare that we did, indeed, have a dialog.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

129. Gosh........ Thanks...........

............. I think.

LOL................. no wonder you LOVE Myers-Briggs tests.

You need them.

[Extend a Hand]

81. a baseless attack

insead of a rational response.

Providing examples of companies that use these tests for prescreening and specify whatever it was that you found offensive in the test instructions.

There is no other way to have a rational discussion.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

104. Your Post Relies on Assumption the Test

.......... is accurate or even relevant or not misused.

Saying something is true and telling me to disprove it is an interesting strategy but intellectually bankrupt.

[Rabrrrrrr]

86. "Challenge something you read sometime" - we are: we're challenging your shitiocy

Excludes people how? Excludes them from what? Keeps them where? Excludes them when?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

107. So What Again is the Purpose of the Test

......... can't wait to hear this one.

[Extend a Hand]

54. so have you ever taken the test?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

59. In a Class Room ...gosh........30 Years Ago

............ from which, fortunately, I have succeeded despite it's claim to know how I would ............. behave ........... before I ever started my first professional job.

[Extend a Hand]

49. Do you know the context for Keirsey's research?

He was looking for a way to keep from medicating "delinquent" juvenile boys. He was convinced that many of these children just communicated differently that the norm and really shouldn't need to medicated to be "controlled."

[Echo In Light]

64. Irrespective of personality type, any "electable" candidate will OBEY their corporate masters

[opihimoimoi]

80. Wow....I had no idea......so many learned peeps on this board....I yeild....

[Extend a Hand]

93. sorry opihimoimoi

I should have just ignored the anti-anytest poster and not helped ruin your thread. It is an interesting topic for discussion.

[opihimoimoi]

103. signs of a bully...dominator type I guess

[Hekate]

134. Yeah, all too busy fighting to check out the 12/25 thread I mentioned. It was much less heated ...

...and more informative.

Peace, Opihi,

Hekate

[opihimoimoi]

151. Aloha, come, we go beach...listen to waves and seabirds ...mo bettah

[Hekate]

152. Much mo' bettah we talk about the Obama Ohana and suchlike.

:hi:

Hekate

[opihimoimoi]

154. I worry about Obama...if he gets the Nom Nod.....I will help...in Hawaii, by the time we vote...its

too late...someone is nom'd already....

Its them Pubs I worry about.....they seem to want Obama too....and if I not mistaken, for no good reason as Pubs vote Red everytime.....

In this case...I think they may have underestimated the BamaPower and his loyal followers plus those of us who vote Blue exclusively....

If we examine The Pubs....as a whole, their collective traits indicate more Neg than Pos....the only way they win is to decieve and distort....this is a year when they will get their asses handed to them....unless..Bush claims exectutive statute to the WH and suspends general elections...ala Hitler/etc.

Come, we work for the Blue.....so much prettier than RED

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

96. I fail to see how MBTI is anything but objective. There is no one "type" that's better or worse than

another.

It speaks to where people find their energy and to what they are drawn.

If a business tries to screen so only certain MBTI types are hired that's a bit whacked, because the variables are enormous.

[opihimoimoi]

106. I was hoping to see others wish for some sort of test of all Prez applicants,

[fightthegoodfightnow]

108. Reading and Writing Works for Me Given Who is in Office

How about you?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

112. It would be instructive, Although

knowing DU, the SF's, NF's, NT's and ST's and so on and so forth would have battled endlessly, depending on where their candidate and/or opponent landed.

[Rabrrrrrr]

114. But we'd only do that because the NFs, STs, and SFs are too dumb to know they're wrong.

And so they would keep arguing.

:P

:rofl:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

121. NF here, who loves ST's.

That's where I do my most learning.

NT's are OK, too. :P

[fightthegoodfightnow]

133. No Judgment There

.........and no surprise either.

Talk about reducing someone to a stereotype based on a personality test developed what 70 years ago.

[Rabrrrrrr]

142. Talk about an inability to read! An inability to detect nuance! An inability to appreciate irony!

:woohoo:

[fightthegoodfightnow]

144. And Still Nothing about the Test

......... and everything about your ideas of who I am.

Well, I give you this much......... at least you are beginning to realize you don't need that test to 'think' on your own.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

146. I feel quite safe in positing that Rabrrr doesn't need anything to encourage him to think on his own

Welcome to DU.

even if you give the impression of an odious twit, but we're online so who can tell? :shrug:

[Rabrrrrrr]

147. I have said volumes about the test, all of which your willing ignorance

refuses to read or acknowledge.

To say that I have said nothing about the test is as egregious a lie - though more mephitic, odious, and unethical - as you saying you never said "anomalous".

The more you try to make me look a fool, the more you make yourself look like a buffoonish clown attempting to make balloon hats for children out of asps and vomit while you cover yourself with piss and shit and call it lilacs.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

148. Not in that Post

...... and any claim to the contrary is dishonest.

[Rabrrrrrr]

149. I never claimed it was in that post.

As I said IN that post, I have talked about the test all over this thread. In other posts.

Of course, you never defined what you meant by "that post" - I assumed it was the one to which you were replying, but you really didn't offer any semblance of clarity as to the disposition of that final pronoun.

That fact that you cannot tell the difference between a sign that says "Look over there" and a sign that says "Look here" is not my fault. It is only the fault of your inability to read.

One hates to be rude, but for God's sake, man, you might do well to take a remedial course in English and reading. And when you are done with that, you might wish to take a course - at your local community college - on rhetoric and communication. I say that not to insult you - though God knows you are far more worthy of insult than most people here - but to help you. I discern that you do indeed have a good mind underneath all the craptasticness - my profound hope is that you will give that mind room to breath and bloom.

[Extend a Hand]

139. What Keirsey found that I thought, really interesting...

was that of the sixteen types
The groups that had the most in common were
NT (rationals), NF (idealists) , SP (artisans), SJ (guardians)


so the Sensing/iNtuitive type kind of determined what the secondary type was for the groups with the most in common
For iNtuitives, the third type Thinking or Feeling gave the groups with the most common traits
but for the Sensing types
the forth type Judgment/Perception gave the most common traits.

So a rational NT can argue all day long presenting fact after fact and will be absolutely baffled when an artisan or guardian or idealist isn't be moved by a mountain of logic




:blush: edited for blatant grammar errors

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

140. The NT's in my life like debate for debate's sake. Their own ethical compass drives what

moves them.

[Rabrrrrrr]

141. "A rational NT can argue all day long... and an idealist won't be moved..."

Yes, methinks the other is an SJ.

Or just bitter and whiny.

Sometimes it's hard to tell what's a legitimate personality style, and what's a lazy self-absorbed toddler-level of maturity.

[Extend a Hand]

143. Oh , I was thinking that too

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[opihimoimoi]

155. Rabrrrrrr, bitter and whiny....too many abound in our society, most are bullies/abusers /NPDs

You da Man

[ChazII]

130. The faculty had

to take this when two elementary schools were merged into one. It did help us appreciate our different working styles.

[amandabeech]

135. A psychologist specializing in testing evaluated mine and went over it with me.

He was very clear that the purpose of the test did not attempt to label people as bad or good, stupid or genius, but to give some insight into personal traits that would make a person more suited to some careers than to others.

I agree that it can and has been misused by employers, particularly undertrained folks in HR.

I think that these tests should only be given and interpreted by psych professionals trained in their use and interpretation, and should not be used to make any definitive decisions on the suitability of a candidate for any job.

I took the test as part of a career counseling workup which is an on-going project. Frankly, it has been helpful to me, but I wouldn't want the HR folks that I know to pigeon-hole me based on their own reading of the test.

My results were somewhat ambiguous. The reading materials that I was given after I had my results consultation said that difficult life experiences, of which I have had more than my share, can sometimes result in someone who really doesn't fit into categories. However, my ambiguous results would give an HR person "permission" to put me into any job suitable for NP's. BTW, I tested as an INTP, but the descriptions don't fit me that well. But a friend of mine is INTP TO THE CORE. It's a little creepy.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

137. AGREE ON THIS: It is Misused

The notion that someone can NEVER succeed in a profession or career because a psycho test is reason enough to dismiss it and the fact that it is used to 'prescreen' or pre-evaluate them for their suitability in a profession or a career is repugnant.

It diminishes the potential of someone before they have done ANYTHING.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

157. I was under the impression that this was most effective in helping groups of people already working

together.

By providing insight into their communication techiques, and creating an understanding of the different approaches to problem solving the different types exhibit.

How on earth would this be helpful as a screening device? Who would be preferred and who would be excluded? That's nuts.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

162. Agree

........it is misused.

[jgraz]

118. Nice post, ENTJler

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

145. DUzy material, that.

:rofl:

[Emit]

153. Yeah, that was definitely funny!

:rofl:

[DireStrike]

164. I dont get it (shrug)

Jailer? what? =/

[Emit]

165. I guess you'd have to know more about the MBTI to get it.

The poster was calling the OPer an ENTJler.

[opihimoimoi]

158. If we look for it...there is much to learn here....Some are so benevolent, others so rigid...unreal