Dammit!!! I want Universal Health Care NOW!!!! In the first 100 days...

[Lost-in-FL]

of my Democratic President in office!! Like we would say in Healthcare lingo... I want Universal Health Care STAT!!!

Did i said I want it FREE!!!!

[midnight]

1. It is possible. First let's ask the rich to pay for the perks they say

are neccessary for them. Let's repeal the tax cuts.

[Jeffro40]

27. Which Perks? And who is rich?

I don't know of too many "perks" I get . . . and maybe you would call me "rich." Most of those who blather about taking from the "rich" think anyone who makes 60K or more is rich.

I drive on the same roads, get the same services, but I pay thousands more in taxes. I don't get a country club, a nicer car (Chev Pickup), but I do have high property taxes. If there are "perks" to be had, please, tell me what they are.

[Tyler Durden]

38. You aren't one of the Top Percentile that got the tax cuts...

So don't parrot their talking points.

Shoot. People like you should be SCREAMING for Universal Single Payer Heath Care. It sure would beat people using ER as a clinic, costing Medicaid about $500 a visit, and you already pay for THAT.

[Sadie4629]

43. There will always be

people who will use the ER as a clinic, for whatever reason. And the number of those will increase if they know there won't be a hospital bill to contend with.

[Tyler Durden]

44. Ever work a Medicare/Medicaid Hospital? I did.

I personally don't think anyone would choose to spend 3-4 hours cooling their heels with a sick kid when they could get in and out of a doctor's office in less than half the time, while not having to deal with the nightmare of an ER.

Would you WAIT 3 weeks with your kid until Bronchitis became Bronchial Pneumonia if you could take him/her to see a doctor in an office at day 2? Not likely.

[Sadie4629]

48. Never worked at a hospital

but my experience is this:

We used to have incredible group insurance. No deductible, no co-pay. Paid just about everything. In a year in which I had a baby, was diagnosed with cancer, had three surgeries, chemotherapy, radiation, plus the normal stuff any family with two small children has, the only thing I had to pay for was a pair of slippers at the hospital when I forgot mine. We also had no paperwork, no forms, no reimbursement, etc. It was probably as close to how an ideal national healthcare plan would function as anyone could imagine.

The DOWNside was that it appeared that all services were free. My DH worked with a guy who got a sliver and went to the ER to have them take it out. Someone else I knew took her constipated toddler to the ER, just because it was a weekend and the clinic wasn't open.

Believe me, that insurance didn't last long. The costs skyrocketed and the premium became prohibitive. They eventually initiated a deductible, and possibly a co-pay, and that helped immensely. It caused people to know that it wasn't free, and to think twice before just going to the ER.

Story #2:

Some years ago I was in the ER, with a badly broken leg. As I was waiting for the orthopedic surgeon to come in to see me, I "eavesdropped" on the conversation on the other side of the curtain. The patient was a baby whose mom I happened to know to be a Medicaid mom. The mom told the doc that her baby had been sick with a mild virus, and that she had taken her to her pediatrician just a few days earlier. She admitted that the baby was getting better, but just wanted her to "be seen" by a doc one more time before the long weekend that was coming up.

WE, the taxpayers, paid for an ER visit for a basically healthy baby, as well as the office visit only a few days before!

Sorry, but when something is perceived as being "free," there will be abuse like you wouldn't believe.

[Tyler Durden]

52. Then they will go to the DOCTOR for free...

And save the taxpayer $450/a visit.

Having worked ER, I KNOW for a fact that given the choice, ALL of the people in question would have gone to a doctor's office.

You have no concept of the "7th Circle of Dante's Inferno" that is an ER packed with late-night Medicaid patients, mostly children, waiting for 4 hours while you clear the gunshot wound from Room 2, pack up the corpse from the bad code in Room 4, and perform the "Emergency Lumbar Puncture" using 30% of the care staff on hand done on some kid with a 104° temp x 3 days.

Given the choice, I'm at the Doctor's office. I would walk in the ER, say "OH MY FUCKING GOD", walk out, and hit the doctor's office in the morning.

[Sadie4629]

55. Didn't you read my post?

The woman in the ER had taken her daughter to the doctor--FOR FREE. She was at the ER only a couple of days later, for an unnecessary and FREE follow-up. I don't know why she was there, rather than at the doc's office--maybe because he couldn't get her in (to see her HEALTHY baby) for a couple of days, and she didn't WANT to wait.

As for the first examples I gave, sorry, but I don't want anyone going to the doctor's office with a sliver, or a constipated kid. I would rather see someone dig his own sliver out with a pair of tweezers(!) As for the constipated kid, try a little Karo syrup. These people didn't use COMMON SENSE, because they didn't have to. After all, their healthcare was "free."

And, as I pointed out downthread, not all ER's are the same.

[Tyler Durden]

57. Granted, they aren't the same....

And when clinics don't have to have only two doctors on shift, I think patient's wait of 2 days will be a thing of the past.

That's usually how things work; when you have a better choice up stream in a process most people take it.

Still a little snarky though. Take deep breaths. Helps me. I haven't punched a doctor since I was in the Navy.

[Sadie4629]

59. I haven't punched anyone. Ever.

And I don't think there is any snarkiness in (most of) my posts. Lots of frustration with people who jump to conclusions, or don't read before commenting, or who think UHC is going to be some kind of problem-free panacea.

Anyway, don't know why you think clinics would change the way they operate. I don't think that there will be such a surplus of docs that there can be 24-hour clinics staffed with dozens of docs, in all places. Maybe in large urban areas, but probably not in most places.

[Tyler Durden]

61. The first jumps were yours...

And I refuse to rise to this one.

No one said that it would be 24 clinics with dozens of docs. No one said there would not be abuses. What was said, was that when ERs don't have to staff for Medicaid clinic visits, and clinics are staffed with the extra doctor (or 2) that they need to avoid the "2 day wait" you supposed, then the problem will be LESS, not zero, but less, and less saves megabucks.

I worked ERs, inside and out of Medicaid hospitals: I never heard a patient talk about how happy he/she/their kid was to be there because they can't get seen in the outside world, and that they would choose to be there and not a doctor's office, given the choice. Never.

[Sadie4629]

63. I'm still not sure I understand what you're saying

Most of the doctors here are in PRIVATE practice. They practice alone, and arrange their own office hours around their own needs--hospital rounds, vacations, etc. They prioritize. If someone has a child who has not been treated for an illness, then that child will have priority over a kid who has been seen, has been treated, and is getting better, and whose nervous mom just wants her unnecessarily followed up.

Are you saying no doctors would be able to be in private practice under UHC? Or arrange their own schedules?

Not trying to be snarky; just trying to understand a different viewpoint.

[Tyler Durden]

67. You really need to read up on how this would work.

One Thing changes: The Insurance Companies would no longer exist, meaning the $7200/year my insurance costs Before Copays would now be paid as TAXES and paid by the GOVERNMENT directly to the providers. No 30% off the top, no profits for stockholders, no denied claims, no payments delayed 6 months and sent to collection agencies.

Single Payer Health Care is just that, and gets administered the same way Medicare does, and Medicare's current overhead is less than 3%.

THEN, we stop charging med students $25,000 a year plus for med school (McGill in Montreal does it for less than $5,000/year and they are one of the best...) so they don't have to pay off 100's of thousands before they even are in real practice, and we get a health care system under control.

The only reason Canada has any provider shortages, is because they can come here and double their pay, so our system is being subsidized already, but the Canadian education system, among other countries.

[Sadie4629]

74. I was telling my DH about this at noon

and he reminded me that BC/BS is nonprofit--no stockholders, no mult-multi-million $$ salaries and bonuses, etc. IOW, they should be functioning just as you say single payer would. If these companies are nonprofit, do you have a problem with them.

Also, lots of insurance companies are "mutuals," meaning that they are owned by their policyholders. Their profits should be going either to the people who are insured, or should go to lowering their premiums.

I believe there would still be denied claims under UHC. Denied claims are just a fact of life in healthcare.

(I have to be out for awhile this afternoon, but will check back later. See ya!)

[Tyler Durden]

77. Yeah but they PAY their execs A TON.

One of the ways they eat up all that PROFIT.

Under UHC there are no "Claims." Doesn't mean there aren't Transplant Waiting list boards, but those exist already. .

[bluethruandthru]

70. I'm starting to think the story of the sliver..and the contipated kid

are urban legends! My repuke sister told me the exact same thing when she was trying to convince me how people would take advantage of the "free" health care. She said it's just like the "welfare queens". Maybe some people will think it's fun to spend all their time going to the doctor or ER anytime they get gas...but, I would guess that the thrill of that would wear off after awhile.
I don't think the fear of abuse should keep this country from doing what so many other countries have managed to do successfully.

[Sadie4629]

71. Don't know about your sis

but I can tell you that the examples I gave are absolutely true, first-hand accounts. Don't know what more I can say . . .

[fenriswolf]

2. I don't want either

I want single payer healthcare, I don't even want it to be universal. People should have a choice
I would gladly have my pay garnished if i knew it was not going for "administration fees". Single payer is the only solution to the "universal health care question" because once it is avalible it will be the only thing people want.

[DesertFlower]

4. whenever i see or hear the words

"health care insurance" i see red. health care is a right, not something you purchase.

[Telly Savalas]

13. So you don't think the Ontario Health Insurance Plan is a good thing?

[DesertFlower]

15. i had to google it.

it's the word "insurance" that bothers me.

[Little Star]

6. Who's plan does not offer a choice?

[fenriswolf]

17. when I said choice

I meant we should have single payer healthcare system and people can choose to use it or private insurer.

[Little Star]

22. There would still be people who can well afford to buy

health ins. and wouldn't. Why should they when they can just walk into any emergency room and get treated. Then our premiums go up. Single payer would go up to. Someone has to pick up the tab and that my friend is you & I. Universal makes it so everyone has to have insurance and there will be a sliding scale of cost from poor to rich. We share the burden in a fair way.

[fenriswolf]

26. right sounds great

just take out the for profit part and I'll agree.

[Little Star]

29. I hope we are at least taking baby steps to....

take out the for profit part.

[dysfunctional press]

47. "Universal makes it so everyone has to have insurance...

...and there will be a sliding scale of cost from poor to rich"

and there will also be a "sliding scale" of benefits.

mandating that everyone MUST buy private insurance is BULLSHIT.
UNLESS there is also mandated co-pay and deductible amounts. not all private insurance policies are created equal- the ones that are affordable for a lot of people also come with higher co-pays, higher deductibles, and more exclusions as far as what is covered is concerned.

that's why we need single-payer universal healthcare- to make sure that EVERYONE is covered and has EQUAL access to treatment.

[Sadie4629]

33. Do you think there wouldn't be

"administration fees" for single payer healthcare? This would be another HUGE government bureaucracy, and the increased taxes we all will pay will go to pay the overhead before one red cent gets paid for a doc/hospital/ER/prescription.

[DesertFlower]

3. i want it too,

but it will never be free. we will pay for it with higher taxes, which i don't mind. when you figure how much your premiums cost, then deductibles, and co-insurance, it would probably be a "wash".

[Cleita]

For the average person it would be but it would cover

those who can't afford it and it would tax those who can afford it to cover those people. It would work out fairly. I think the plan should be one plan for everyone though, none of this tiered, classist thing over who can pay and who has to be means tested to qualify for subsidies.

[DesertFlower]

10. i'm fine with that. nt

[Sadie4629]

34. You think it would be "free"

for the AVERAGE person? I think the average person would be paying way more in taxes than their current group insurance costs.

[Cleita]

78. If your group insurance doesn't cost much you must be very

young and have no preexisting conditions because when you get older and you accumulate a medical history or your age group does even if you don't, you will see your premiums hike up dramatically. Also, have you looked at your deductible and co-pays? You may find yourself not only paying for your insurance but also paying for your medical procedures as well, because of those factors. They have a really interesting forumula for applying your medical expenses to your deductible and it results in them never paying a cent because you will never meet that deductible in a year of payments that they accept even though you exceed it in actual dollars. I know it happened to me before I qualified for Medicare.

Private insurers deliver profits not health care. Health care is only a side function and they carefully cherry pick their coverages so as not to have to deliver much health care. This is why our health care costs $8,000 approximately per capita in the USA today per year as compared to Canada who can deliver actual comprehensive health care for less that $3,000 per capita per year. Also Canada covers everyone. We have 30% uninsured and an even larger amount that are underinsured meaning that their coverage is only catastrophic. Our system is expensive and inadequate.

So you are actually better off with no insurance in the system we have today.

[Cleita]

8. Dupe.

[Greyhound]

19. Free has nothing to do with it. Of course nothing is free, the point is

that we are already paying for it. The ~50 million that have no health care and the ~20 million who's insurance is inadequate to the point of being worthless, represent the billions of $$ that are stolen by the ruling class every year in the current scam system.

[Saturday]

5. Then you better hope Hillary wins the primaries.

At least she wants a mandate for everyone to have insurance, Obama says those who don't want it don't have to get it. She's closer to single payer than he is.

[fenriswolf]

7. bullshit

big differance if you decide to keep for profit in the equation. Her plan works towards the health insurance because under hillary we would have "universal health care" and that would be the end of the issue.

[Cleita]

9. Yes and the insurance companies, HMOs and big PHARMA

who have contributed to her campaign are loving it. Follow the money.

This is the plan that we need and that we need to make Hillary or Obama back up if we are to have any meaningful health plan at all that doesn't penalize the sick while making the corporations rich.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_cong_bills&docid=f:h676ih.txt.pdf

[Lost-in-FL]

11. Thanks for the link!

I will have to read this cause I believe UHC will be very difficult to be put forward in such polarized Congress we have at this point. Lots of money in that industry to be made and the changes will come very hard. I am curious on how will Congress compromise to make Healthcare easy to reach.

[Cleita]

14. Your welcome! n/t

[DesertFlower]

12. exactly.

why haven't any of the candidates talked about it? it's been around for 5 years, so it's nothing new.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

21. Bullshit. She isn't for true Universal Health Care. The insurance companies are going to

prevail. In fact, it will appear to be good but it will be the same crap, but for everyone.

As a mandate...there is something just wrong with that. Think about it.

[Little Star]

23. yadayadayada, you said it!!! We all better hope she wins.

Some how I always thought we Dems wanted to take care of the poor, the sick, the homeless. Hillary's HC plan will go far in helping all of us.

[Cleita]

25. I don't think so and I won't mind saying I told you so

in a year or two when you find out how bad her plan actually is. Read up on Massachussetts.

[wain]

16. When it comes to health care, you get what you pay for.

If it's free, you'll get what you pay for and probably won't be too happy.

[OHdem10]

18. I see you pay no attention to the opposition

Taxcuts Taxcuts----no increase in taxes. When over half the
country will not agree to it, you have to develop patience
and work in stages to get there.

Or

No Health Care Reform at all.

[Greyhound]

20. More corporate welfare is no reform at all.

Do you seriously believe that pumping more billions into the criminal enterprise known as American health insurance will actually improve anything?

Want to buy some prime real estate in Iraq?

[ileus]

24. Yeah Free...

[dawniedarling]

28. whatcha gonna do when you get it?

Do you have something in mind?

I just want my checkups, please

[ProdigalJunkMail]

30. free, you say? Surely you jest...

or do you expect the entire medical industry (including pharma and medtech) to suddenly start working pro bono?

Nothing is free...someone will pay for it...

sP

[jmg257]

31. "Free"??? Then just WHO is going to pay for it? Oh yeah - the REST of us.

My kid wants a (free) car & a (free) trip to college - will you help her out?

[Sadie4629]

35. Shhhhhhhhhhh!

Some people don't want to hear that.

[Tyler Durden]

40. It's not FREE.

You and your bud you're replying to are making yourselves sound like trolls. If you aren't, then I suggest you educate yourself. Right Wing Talking Points ARE NOT WELCOME HERE.

[Sadie4629]

41. The OP used the term "free"

and there are some who actually believe that it will be. It will cost LOTS & LOTS of $$$ is a valid point, and you don't have to be a "troll" to know that. Just about every government program that ever existed ended up costing way more than those in charge ever told us it would. National healthcare will be no different.

[Tyler Durden]

46. You are picking nits.

The OP (who I know personally) is fully aware, as you should be, that the current tax load (minus some interesting expenditures like IRAQ, and the additional monies from then non-necessary programs like Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, etc.) will take care of Universal Health Care very well.

Keying on "Free" has been used here for many years by trolls as right wing talking point. Just making a suggestion.

[Sadie4629]

49. I didn't know that

I saw the word "free" and reacted to it, just as most thinking people would.

Sorry.

[Tyler Durden]

54. Snarky ain't great either.

Just a suggestion. You have control over one thing in your life: your reaction to outside stimuli and events. I have great difficulty controlling mine, but I have made great strides.

Something to be personally proud of in my book.

[Tyler Durden]

39. You are already Paying about $500 a pop for ER visits....

That Medicaid patients make because they can't get regular doctor care, and have to use the ER as a clinic.

You're making yourself look like a troll, so if you aren't I suggest you educate yourself.

[Sadie4629]

42. The fact that it will be

free at point of service will make ER visits skyrocket. Costs will NOT go down, they will only increase phenomenally.

[Tyler Durden]

45. I don't think so.

The reason for the ER/Medicaid issue is they won't treat unless it's critical, and I give you a choice here: a Doctor's visit for your kid or you and your flu/strep/etc., with a 1.5 hour wait in a nice waiting room with magazines, or, a 4 hour wait in an ER while they treat heart attacks, strokes, and bump you to the back of the line to enjoy the oder of vomit and feces.

Your suggested problem will not disappear, but it sure will diminish by a huge fraction. Trust me, I've worked there.

[Sadie4629]

50. My experience is different from yours,

but equally valid. I cited a couple of examples upthread, absolutely true in both cases. I'm looking forward to reading your response to them.

Keep in mind that I live in a rural area, and there is no three or four hour wait in an ER for ANYONE here. They get you into a room immediately upon arrival, and you are seeing a doc very shortly after that. Probably a lot of smaller hospitals are the same.

Maybe abuses wouldn't take place in large urban settings, but they will in many, many other places.

[Tyler Durden]

53. Your little hospital isn't the problem.

I can name about 5 in central Houston that ARE, 2 of them owned by the same rePuke bastard, raking in $10 MILLION a year OVER COSTS.

Once we turn the system around (which also involves NOT charging $300,000 for a top rank medical education: The Canadians have done it) we will ask ourselves why we permitted the old system to exist for so long.

[Sadie4629]

56. There are thousands of little hospitals

in small towns all across the country. And I'll bet most of them are the same as ours.

The system will be abused. You can bet on it.

[Tyler Durden]

58. So the system gets 15% abuse (to pull a figure out of my ass).

We still should change the system.

See? Originally typed "WELL! Then let's just let the same wasteful and dysfunctional juggernaut waste taxes and roll over people! God forbid we fix ANYTHING because the same abuse going on NOW might continue to a lesser degree!!!" Nasty and snarky, right? I took 10 deep breaths and posted what I did (childish snark previously written and not posted included to let you know we all THINK it. We just don't have to DO it.)

[Sadie4629]

60. I can play that game, too!

I think there will be _85%_ abuse, misuse, and outright fraud! ;-)

Thing is, no one knows what will happen. And once it is here, there is no going back.

There are better ways to do UHC, but I don't like any of the ideas that have been floated so far. I think everyone needs to have a point-of-service co-pay in order to make people think twice before accessing the healthcare system (which will never be free, and will always be incredibly expensive.) A $2.00 co-pay might be enough to make some people reconsider, while $100.00 might have that effect on someone else.

I'm thinking--not enough to cause someone to wait with a potentially serious illness, but enough so that you won't have people going to doctors (or ERs) with slivers and constipated kids.

[Tyler Durden]

62. I have taken care of kids with slivers that had gone to MRSA....

And constipated kids that have been wheeled in for emergency appendectomies (which cost 10 times what Non-emergency ones do).

By your admission, you ain't been to the monkey show. I suggest you can't make a judgment like yours without the information.

You see, you're arguing to make a point you don't have the information to defend, and you have a marginal post count. That is what makes people think "troll." On the other hand, I know many long timers here who argue for the sake of arguing because "it's FUN."

COPAYS are the insurance company's bright idea to make money on something they are supposed to cover (check the Nixon tapes for the "Kaiser Permanente" HMO start up.)

Now if you repeat your initial point, which you've made several times ("...there will be abuses...") then I'll know you are arguing to argue, and not to make new points.

[Sadie4629]

65. But do you think

that ALL slivers should be removed by a doctor? Do you think parents should take their constipated kids to the doctor BEFORE trying some common sense home remedies?

Complications can happen, and do, but only rarely. A person's first impulse should always be to try to handle a minor problem themselves, before accessing healthcare, regardless of cost.

(As an aside--I think I'd rather try to handle a child's flu symptoms at home rather than sit in a waiting room with a dozen other kids coughing, sneezing, and possibly puking.)

My idea of a mandatory co-pay is to get people to try alternatives. It does work to deter--you-know-whats! :)

[Tyler Durden]

69. Do you think EVERY person with a sliver goes to the ER?

You would be amazed what people do on their own. We saw a lot of their MISTAKES.

As to your aside, when I went to my physician in Marysville, Michigan, when he had more than a couple of coughing (or even one puking kid) in the waiting room, he jumped them to the exam rooms stat. I think that's what real doctors do when they have the proper resources.

[Sadie4629]

73. Of course not

but not even ONE should! A sliver isn't an emergency until it is mishandled, and unless one is going after it with an axe, there should be plenty of warning before it does become an emergency!

When my kids were little the docs usually didn't even know what was going on in their waiting rooms; the "office girls" (not even nurses) handled all of that, and in cold & flu season, there weren't enough exam rooms to put them all!

[Tyler Durden]

76. Just my point.

My Canadian Ex-pat Conservative Best Friend (yeah me. Can you picture? But he hated Stephen Harper) checked the waiting room every time he left an exam room. He called it "managing future business" to get very sick people out of the waiting room and into an exam room where they couldn't spread the diseases.

[GTurck]

32. I have had chronic..

conditions for the past 30 years and when we had health coverage- as it is supposed to be - they were manageable. Now we have to pay large sums out of pocket and worry about being covered at all. No longer even complain about my problems unless they become acute. Even my recent enrollment in Medicare doesn't make me feel better covered.
We need universal coverage now!

[redqueen]

36. Free? Keep dreaming. But single-payer care WOULD be much less expensive.

But that's because there's less profit than the bloodsucking leeches are getting, and they're not giving it up, and they own DC, so you can kiss that dream goodbye.

[KansDem]

37. Hell, we've already sunk $1.5 TRILLION into the Iraq invasion

I think we can afford to see to it that our citizens receive health care...

edited for spelling

[blindpig]

51. Looks like yer gonna be shit outta luck.

There'll be nothing like single payer from these two.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

64. No, I think Kucinich won't be Prez

No universal health care for us.

:thumbsdown:

[MadHound]

66. You're going to be waiting a long time then

Since neither Dem candidate is talking about true, single payer, non-profit universal health care. Instead they're talking about mandatory, for profit insurance based health care, with the extra added bonus of paying off the insurance industry with our tax dollars.

[Javaman]

68. another sad story in the long list of health-care tragedies in this country...

A friend of mine has an auto-immune disorder.

She has to go once a month for a "treatment". These treatments run into the thousands of dollars and without them, she will die. It's that simple.

Yesterday, she found out that her health insurance provider will no longer pay for the treatments. Stating (I'm paraphrasing here), "they are too expensive".

Just think about that for a while.

They were paying them, until they just decided for whatever arbitrary reason not to pay them anymore.

She's not out of options, but the few she has are not many.

She's far from rich, wealthy or even well off. She's just another worker bee like the rest of us trying to fill their daily quota of ground wheat.

Without the treatments, with in a few short months, she will pass away.

So when did it become an American trait to DENY people life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

I get so tired of living in an alternative universe.

[Xenotime]

72. I want it too. I can't believe people are against this.

[supernova]

75. Paying for healthcare HERE!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2815655&mesg_id=2815655