Stop saying UHC will raise taxes!

[supernova]

I've seen quite a few threads and posts over the weekend and again today saying that they don't like Universal Healthcare because they think it will be more expensive than Heathcare is now.

This is not correct. Right now, we are paying, through premiums, through taxes raised for county hospitals, much more for our current healthcare system than we should because of overcrowded ERs and overpriced medicines. Those who have insurance are already financing the uninsured. It's kinda the same principle as when a clothing store must raise prices due to shoplifting. Now, people without health insurance aren't shoplifting. I certainly won't call myself that. But right now, if I got sick, I'd have to go to the ER and possibly risk collections because I couldn't pay the overpriced bill they would send me because I'm not in an insurance risk pool that can afford to bargain for better rates at the hospital. So I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't.

Universal healthcare will mean we, as a country, will have to choose different priorities in our spending. We will have to stop giving so much money to the Pentagon and focus on human needs, i.e. medical care.

To help you visualize the U.S. budget, here's an oldie but a goodie, TrueMaority.org's http://www.truemajorityaction.org/cookiebudget">Oreo cookie U.S. Federal budget exercise . While the exact numbers may be a bit outdated (2-3 years old?, not sure) the proportions are still the same or may possibly be worse now. Yes there are other things we need to be investing our tax dollars in too, alternative energy for one, but this thread focuses on universal healthcare.

Bottom line: You can readily see how out of whack the DoD spending is compared to rest of our federal budget. Better yet, visit the TM homepage and learn how out of whack our defense spending is with other countries, even our nearest-spending "problem" country. We could easily peel off money from the DoD budget and the Pentagon would never miss it.

So, what's it gonna be, a new missile guidance system that we won't ever use or universal healthcare for all Americans?

[redqueen]

1. It absolutely kills me that so many people are STILL so confused about this.

*sigh*

[supernova]

2. It's maddening

Makes me want to tear my hair out!

[supernova]

3. Kick!

I'm not letting this thread die.

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. Of course, true single-payer universal healthcare would be even

less expensive, as corporations would no longer have to maintain health insurance on workers, thus making them more competitive with foreign companies and more profitable, which would then be reflected in higher pay for workers; the insurance would not be taking 30% of its income as profit, and another 20% going into advertising and salemen's salaries (and the office structures that support both). So instead of having a 50% overhead for your healthcare buck, you'd have more like a 5% overhead, in administration costs.

But with Kucinich and Edwards gone, NOBODY is talking about THAT.

[redqueen]

5. See... how hard is that to figure out?

How are people still so confused?

[bluethruandthru]

13. If our candidates would start talking about it instead

of feeding us the "let's make health insurance affordable for everyone" crap...maybe the public would wake up. Someone has to start telling the truth. It's time to get the insurance companies out of health care. I don't want "health insurance" for everyone...I want "health care" for everyone.

[redqueen]

15. Dennis did.

I guess people just ignore him...

[bluethruandthru]

16. They did ignore him...but it shouldn't have just been Dennis.

They all need to start talking about the real truths..that this Healthcare mess will never be fixed as long as the insurance companies are part of the equation. This is the single most disappointing aspect of all of our candidates...except Dennis! :)

[bvar22]

22. When you are on the payroll of the Health Insurance Industry,

you really can't tell the truth about the cost of "HealthCare".

Neither Hillary nor Obama have a HealthCare Plan.

They both have "for profit" Health Insurance Plans.

BIG difference.

[SoCalDem]

18. They are confused because the "industry" needs it to be that way

The whole issue needs to come out from behind the curtains of deceit, and talked about in plain kitchen-table ways..

ie:

boss "says" he pays $200 a week "for" your health care..

Boss no longer pays any out of pocket for you and YOU get $200 a week EXTRA on your paycheck, which is then ADDED to what YOU already pay.. THAT's your "new" healthcare tax"..

Boss no longers needs to care what you do "healthwise' in your off-time, and he/she now needs to actually pay you to do your work....not enough pay? you can change jobs without losing your healthcare because ANY job you take will have built-in coverage for you, throough taxes.

Employees are ALREADY paying through the nose, by being unable to change jobs at will and are "insurance serfs"..at the mercy of their bosses who are DEDUCTING the cost, and NOT giving you real raises..

[Thothmes]

30. Will the law be written

to require the Boss to that $200.00 in your paycheck. Unless it is part of the law, my guess is that you will never see one red cent of it. Unless he can keep that $200.00, that would have gone to the health insurance company, shifting to a government sponsored system does not improve his competitiveness in the market place.

[SoCalDem]

37. In a perfect world, it would be folded in with Medicare..

Enhancing the boss' "competitiveness" in the marketplace has not been as big of a problem lately, as has been employee mobility & wage leverage.

BUT once freed from negotiating for health care for his employees, a boss WOULD be able to offer real raises to keep the good employees, and if he did not pay them well, they would go elsewhere...and also freed from the ever escalating cost of medical insurance, that money could be spent on R&D or enhancing his company..

Once the initial "payback" (what he's been paying) was folded in, he would be off the hook, and could compete with foreign companies and the people who have never paid a dime towards their employees' health care..

[Thothmes]

40. Only in a perfect world

describes the situation perfectly.

[supernova]

6. Agreed

Our overall expenditures would go way down, eventhough many more people will be in the system. Economies of scale and all of that. And I'm sure healthcare providers will be all too happy to dump having to chase down multiple insurance companies with multiple conditions, exclusions, and ways of doing business for a federal single payer system that will genuinely pay them... on time too.

[Telly Savalas]

27. 30% profit?

Which insurance company has that big a margin?

[supernova]

7. So, everyone agrees that I have a point?

[HughBeaumont]

8. A new missile guidance system we won't ever use.

We'll stop feeding the bottomless Pentasewer pit about the same time the Earth crashes into the Sun.

War is profitable. Helping people isn't.

America is too afraid to collectively stand up against corporatists and the wealthy; more than a generous percentage of them refuse to do this based on the ridiculous fantasy that they too will be as rich someday and they'll WANT all of these privileges intact when they get there. Another sizeable percentage refuse to stand up to them because they're just flat-out gullible dumbasses who think Reagone and the Bewshes were great presidents, we can win in Vietraq and 'Murka would go straight into the shitter if we became like (gasp) Europe or them C'nadyuns!!

Such is life in Dumberica. We WANT change but refuse to take the actions that will make it happen. You had a great candidate in John Edwards but didn't trust him or believe him. We're too debt ridden and scared to kick our politicians in the ass and demand they stop giving corporations, the wealthy and their lobbyists all the tea and crumpets they desire.

And KNOWING this, why oh WHY do we keep repeating the practice of not taking our elections seriously and demanding that every vote be counted by hand, machines be done away with and outlawing partisan plants like Blackwell and Harris to oversee elections? Why does our side continually piss away our nomination on someone who's favored by corporatists far and wide? Why don't we demand our media be FAIR for once and cover all candidates equally, not just the ones they want? Why do we continue to ignore populist candidates and dismiss them as "angry"?

When does it all end? When does unbridled corporatism FINALLY come to a dead halt?

[supernova]

10. I wonder about this every day

This idea that people just don't want to know what's really going on.

Why is that? They want to be lied to, coddled, and just generally avoid the truth of our situation in ways large and small.

[derby378]

9. Universal health CARE, not universal health INSURANCE

Let's make that perfectly clear. If a candidate will leave me to the mercy of folks such as CIGNA, I ain't interested.

[supernova]

11. I feel the same

I don't want the insurance companies involved at all. Neither do I want the drug companies involved. They have been overly involved in all the worst ways since the New Deal.

[Tyler Durden]

12. K&R

Beats re-posting against this person arguing that UHC won't work because it will be "abused".

[supernova]

14. Thanks!

[redqueen]

17. Kick for awareness.

:kick:

[harun]

19. K&R (n/t)

[Spiffarino]

20. It won't. It will SAVE money.

As long as the gubmint has the stones to keep it healthy, funded and running it will be less expensive than the current system.

[supernova]

29. That's my point

If we get it up and running it will save us money over the long run, like other civilized countries are now doing.

[Spiffarino]

39. Understood

I was agreeing forcefully. :D

[slipslidingaway]

21. Single-payer, not for profit has never been explained to the

American people. If people are covered and can afford the increases they have no incentive to educate themselves.

Dennis is the only candidate who would have bypassed the media and Congress to take this issue directly to the American people.


Dennis Kucinich: Health care
"...What's lacking is political leadership..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2OUyZesqRg


"This is a fight inside the Democratic Party..."

Health Care
Maybe next time?
2000, 2004, 2008...2012???

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2814410&mesg_id=2814618

[supernova]

31. Sustained discussion

we do need to have a loud, sustained discussion about universal healthcare in this country. No doubt about it.

I think a series of Lincoln-Douglas style debates across the country would be a good idea. No way proponents of the status quo would win.

[slipslidingaway]

38. Yes, but none of the other candidates want to discuss this issue

other than to say it cannot be done.

As Dennis said this is a fight within the Democratic Party...brought it to the platform committee in 2000 and 2004 and was told that the idea of single-payer could not be supported.

And in 2008 our party says once again it cannot be done, the issue needs a national voice :(


Health Care
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOB0f3I1AXk

[NewJeffCT]

23. It will raise taxes, but it will be more than offset

by not having to pay heath insurance premiums. Correspondingly, health care costs will go down over time as well as the system becomes more efficient.

[supernova]

32. We won't have to

raise taxes if we skim some off the Pentagon budget.

The GOP loves to throw money at the Pentagon whether they ask for it or not. That needs to stop. Permanently.

[NewJeffCT]

36. it needs to stop

but, it won't be stopping any time soon. however, if we trim out Iraq spending, cut off contracts with mercenary groups like Blackwater, etc, it will go a long ways towards paying for universal health care.

[Richard Steele]

24. K&R

[Triana]

25. THANK YOU Supernova! UNbelievable how many people don't get this...

..but then again - opposition campaigns and the lamestream media are doing their level BEST to spread FUD about UHC and about what it really means.

(FUD = Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).

UHC makes sense - if people would just stop flapping and hyperventilating long enough to grok the facts about it. Jeeze.

[supernova]

33. "flapping and hyperventilating"

:rofl:

So true. :D

[Redstone]

26. Christ, I hope people pay attention to your post. I'm recommending it.

Redstone

[supernova]

34. Thank you Redstone

That means a lot to me.

[suziedemocrat]

28. I think Medicine in the US is way too inefficient.

This is my PERSONAL view. I want to be in control of my own health. Not the doctor, not the insurance agent.

I think I should be able to get screened for certain diseases for free, without a doctor's prescription. A voucher for a mammogram or ultra-sound to use once a year, without going to a doctor first.

I want to control all of my own medical records. Once my mother had an operation, and she had to go to several hospitals and several doctor's offices to collect her files and take to the new surgeon. Then, she had to return them all. What a joke! I want to control all of the information myself. I control my tax information, why not my health information.

The doctor's and nurses and insurance agencies treat us like idiot children who couldn't possibly be responsible for our own welfare. But, guess what. The medical profession has been pushing bad advice and unnecessary medications and procedures on us for too long. I think it is weird, that when I look up health information, so much of it is from the BBC. It is like the UK wants their citizens to be informed about health.

[supernova]

35. You can be and should be

the one in control of your healthcare.

I know more about my cardiac condition than most cardiologists.

You can always ask for copies of your medical records. In fact it is a fabulous idea to keep your own medical notebook record. That way you have it handy when you want to get a second opinion. (Things like x-rays though are better kept at the hospital until you really need them.)

If you have docs and nurses treating you like an idiot, maybe you need to find new docs? I changed primary care docs once because the MD didn't seem to understand that I do know about my heart condition. :P