Russia, Venezuela May Sign $1.4 Bln Contract For Three Kilo-Class Subs In April

[Purveyor]

MOSCOW, February 5 (RIA Novosti) - Russia and Venezuela are at the final stage of talks on a deal to sell three Kilo-Class Project 636 submarines to Venezuela's Navy, which could be clinched in April, Vedomosti business daily said Tuesday.

The Project 636 submarine is designed for anti-submarine warfare and anti-surface-ship warfare, and also for general reconnaissance and patrol missions. It is considered to be one of the quietest diesel submarines in the world.

The paper quoted a Russian government agency official as saying that the $1.4 bln contract was agreed in principle last December and could be signed during President Hugo Chavez's visit to Russia in April, while delivery could start before the end of the year.

It said the Venezuelans originally planned to buy state-of-the-art Amur submarines, but Russia persuaded them to opt for an older project, saying that some of the Amur's systems were still being tested.

Dmitry Vasilyev, an expert with the Moscow based Center for Strategic and Technological Studies, said Russia may have agreed to install powerful anti-submarine Club missiles to compensate for its refusal to sell Caracas the Amur submarines.

---EOE---

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080205/98423524.html

[northzax]

1. $1.4b on submarines

and confiscation of food at the border.

sounds like someone has their priorities right. And before anyone says anything about 'defending' the country against outside threats, the only reason to have a submarine capability, especially ones built for ASW, is to attack other submarines and some surface ships. The only people in the region with those in any number are the good old USN. and those antiquated subs will last minutes against US technology.

[mvccd1000]

3. northzax, read the paper I linked to below

A relatively modern diesel-electric is far quieter than our nuclear submarines, which were built for endurance first and silence second. (A very close second, but still second.)

In a small area like the Caribbean, I would think silence is of more importance than the ability to stay submerged for six months at a time, so those subs may not be at as great a disadvantage as you think.

[northzax]

5. I am familiar with the concept

and only have a few flaws to point out. First, silence isn't as important in a shallow, noisy sea like the caribbean. Yes, a well rigged kilo is practically silent while at slow speed and running on batteries.

Now, for the downsides:


1: they are buying two. At best, one will be drydocked at all times, so there is a usable fleet of one.
2: the us has the capability to cover the entire region with sonar nets and radar. After about a day running at five knots, the kilo must up periscope and run her quite loud deisels for at least an hour. Sonarnets and AWACS is more than capable of finding them then, since we would know roughly where to look. So, if anything, it gets one shot, since Caracas is lacking nuclear torpedoes, that one shot will maybe get one submarine.
3: the us lacks a d/e sub presence and would be unlikely to take los angeles class hunter-killers into the shores of venzuela anyway, so what is it going to shoot?
4: kilos are notoriously unreliable. Iran has six. None have ever left the dock. There is a good reason the Russians build them only for export and have none, repeat none, under their own flag at this point. (it's thought they once has as many as 18)
5: it takes at least two years to become qualified in one, even for a current submariner. Can they staff them?
6: there are people literally starving in Caracas, and the government is spending $1.2 billion on importing subs?

Basically, Caracas is yet another petrostate buying cast off weapons systems from a northern power, good enough to fight a local power, but a serious waste of time against a seriously modern navy. Why?

for $1.4 billion, Caracas could give every adult male in the country a Kalishnikov, every fifth a heavy machine gun and every tenth an RPG, much more effective at repelling a land invasion than a few soon to be waterlogged submarines.

[mvccd1000]

2. Interesting. Subs can make for a huge shift in the balance of power.

If you're at all interested in post-cold war submarine strategy or the continuing importance of ASW (Anti-Submarine Warfare), it might be worth taking a look at the paper "The Third Battle."

It's available online here: http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/history/cold-war-asw.html

[nels25]

4. I road boats in the 70's

now I know that sub technology has changed quite a bit (seawolf et all) but the theory of using them is still for the most part the same.

2 types of boats, ballistic missile subs (aka: Boomer's) and regular anti-shipping subs.

You might be interested to know that the number one target mission for a SSN (regular sub) is to hunt down the other guys subs, it's secondary mission is anti-shipping.

I do not know how deep the water is in the area that these subs would operate but the more shallow the more of a disadvantage a sub has.

Also being quiet is on the best assets a sub can have but I am not sure how much quieter a diesel is as opposed to a nuke powered sub.

Lastly I would be willing to bet at least a few shekels that the Russians did not want to sell Chavez state of the art subs because it would be considered (rightly IMHO) a provocative act by us.

If Chavez wants subs and fighter jets then I believe we should at least pay a little attention to what he may want to do with them, does not mean we need to be belligerent or bellicose against him, but caution may be appropriate.

:dilemma:

[Judi Lynn]

8. Venezuela had airplanes made in the U.S., and had requested spare parts for repairs & Bush refused.

You don't remember? Happened years ago. At that point, they knew they were going to have to get airplanes from countries which would also sell them parts so they could be repaired.

Then, _Bush assumed it was his place to start telling other countries that they couldn't sell to Venezuela. Here's one article from 2006:

U.S. bars Spanish sale to Venezuela
Planes are refusedto 'autocratic' regime
By Renwick McLean
Published: SATURDAY, JANUARY 14, 2006

MADRID: The United States has refused to give Spain permission to sell military aircraft containing U.S. technology to Venezuela, saying the deal would aid the increasingly "autocratic and antidemocratic" regime of President Hugo Chávez and would destabilize the region, the U.S. Embassy here said Friday.

The Spanish government, led by Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, said that it regretted the decision, but vowed to move forward with the deal after acquiring the necessary technology from another country.

In November, Spain agreed to sell Venezuela 12 transport planes and eight patrol boats for about E1.7 billion, or $2.2 billion.

Since the planes, which have yet to be constructed, were to contain American technology, Spain was required to request a license from Washington before completing the sale.

In articulating U.S. opposition to the deal, embassy officials in Madrid said that the sale amounted to support for an oppressive regime that threatened to spread instability across parts of Latin America.

McCain wins crucial states in raceIntelligence chief cites Qaeda threat to U.S.BHP sweetens offer for Rio Tinto to $147 billion"Despite being democratically elected, the government of President Hugo Chávez has systematically undermined democratic institutions, pressured and harassed independent media and the political opposition and grown progressively more autocratic," the embassy said in a statement.

"In a region in need of political stability, the Venezuelan government's actions and frequent statements contribute to regional instability," it continued. "This proposed sale of air platforms has the potential to complicate the situation."

Spanish officials said that they respected the U.S. position. But they disputed the assertion that the sale would destabilize the region, saying that the planes and boats are not designed for combat operations.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/13/news/spain.php

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wouldn't hurt to keep a closer eye on these events so it won't be easy for right-wingers to tell you big ones, which they will. If you don't know the difference, you will be misinformed by someone who wants to mold your perception. Only way to beat that is to inform yourself.

[northzax]

9. and how is this not yet another Southern State

buying outdated weapons from a northern power? why does it matter if the technology is funneled through a secondary state like Spain or Korea or whatever? it is still US technology (or Russian technology) being sold to a country that routinely and openly insults the United States.

Are you a businesswoman? would you do business with someone who openly insulted you or would you tell that person to bugger off and find another supplier? if you depend on another supplier, do you insult her publically?

I don't care where the weapons come from, I would be saying the exact same thing if Venezuela was buying subs from the US, or the UK, or Argentina (which may have a couple) the question stands: WHY? why spend this money on useless showboat technology against a non-existant military threat (that if it did exist would not be bothered by these subs anyway) when people are starving in the streets? Does Venezuela really have this much money, that they can feed all their people, invest in communications and transportation infrastructure, build and staff education facilities, build and staff hospitals and clinics, and still drop $1.4 Billion on submarines they will never use? (not to mention the $100m or so annually to operate them) how do three KILO subs advance the Bolivarian Revolution? Answer me that.

[Ganja Ninja]

11. I was on subs in the 70's too.

In general a diesel when it's running on batteries is quieter than a nuke running on it's steam turbines. The Germans now have a model that runs on diesel but also has batteries and fuel cells for electric power when running submerged. It's claimed to be the quietest in the world.

[northzax]

6. I don't get it

where are all the Chavez cheerleaders telling us how great this is for the people of Venezuela? They can't ALL have the flu, can they?

[mvccd1000]

7. ...

You're making me look silly, chuckling to myself at work. :)

[northzax]

10. still waiting....

whistles while he waits...