Unions. Yes ? ...No ? ...Maybe ?

[Blarch]

Sure they started with a noble cause. But what I see today is something different.

I will keep this short and sweet. The Unions want you to hire THEM for the job, for what THEY want. And if you don't...they will picket your job site. If you are running a non-union business and treat your people better than the union would ...you will still get the rat at your site. This tells me it really isn't about workers rights ...ect...

Discuss:

[aquart]

1. Thank you for your concern.

I am not allowed to describe you with accuracy.

[Blarch]

2. thanks for your input.

[TahitiNut]

3. "...treat your people better ..."??? How PATERNALISTIC of you!

:puke:

[Kermitt Gribble]

4. The country has been deteriorating

since they started destroying the unions.

I think you're confused.

[Blarch]

9. Wait a second.

If the union pickets a company that treats their employees better than the union would....then how is it abouut workers rights and such ?

They are there because the work wasn't given to them ...Am I wrong ? ...I am in the trades and see it all the time.

[Kermitt Gribble]

12. "a company that treats their employees better than the union would"

is an anomaly. It's about the 99.99% of the companies that don't.

[El Pinko]

36. Oh come now, industries brought in safety rules, raised wages out of the goodness of their hearts!

Everyone knows that industries were just trying to help teach little kids valuable skills when they used to make them work 12 hour shifts with dangerous machinery!

The company scrip system was a great deal for workers - they could get averything they needed at the "company store"!

Why, everything was better for workers before the unions came around and messed it all up!

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[devilgrrl]

18. "...a company that treats their employees better than the union would"

And which company would that be?

Wal-Mart?

AT&T?

Do tell.

[Liberal Veteran]

21. Circuit City!

Now there's a good example of what can happen without unions.

[I work for workers]

25. Not many people realize this,

but around here at least, Wal-Mart does treat it's entry level workers better then UFCW does. I doubt that applies to workers with longer histories.

It also builds its stores with union labor.

[blondeatlast]

26. 'Round here? Your profile is hidden. Do tell. Wal-Mart sure as hell doesn't

use Union labor in this Right to be Screwed Royally state, Mr. "Works-for-Workers."

[I work for workers]

30. New York.

Wal-Mart might not have unionized employees, but they do use union construction. Pointing out facts doesn't mean I approve of what I'm talking about.

I'm a labor lobbyist. Hence the name.

[unapatriciated]

31. A quality building with....

inequality inside. :shrug: You state you are a labor lobbyist but who do you work for the corporations?

[blondeatlast]

46. Exactly. No self-respecting union or union member should have anything to do with Wal-Mart.

You either respect labor or you don't.

[Radical Activist]

48. The old trade unions tend to have a narrow focus.

They don't cooperate as much with the more progressive unions. They'd happily support a project building a pit to hell if union workers were digging it.

[blondeatlast]

27. Do let us know the name of this marvelous company. I'd love to hear more

about this revelation in labor and management.

[annabanana]

5. "treat your people ". . . ?

Unless it becomes inconvenient, or you decide that the son in law really ought to have that Jaguar...

[Mojambo]

6. Not just yes, but HELL YES. n/t

[KG]

7. Not just yes, but HELL YES!!!

once more, with feeling!

[LisaM]

8. Union - YES!

I agree, I cannot describe the OP and stay on this board.

[Blarch]

11. Fuck that.

Please explain why the union would picket a job that was handed to a non-union company that treats it's employees better than the union ?

I am from Chicago, So maybe I am seeing it first hand. The unions are not exactly what you think, they have agendas and goon squads, I stopped at one site where they had a group with a sign and handing out flyers...not one spoke english, I bet some were illegal. Not one of them could read or discuss the flyer they were handing out.

[rAVES]

15. Nasty little man.. away with you!

"not one spoke english, I bet some were illegal"

I bet you are a freeper troll.

[I work for workers]

16. You know the answer.

It's because the union wants the job. Workers rights are the political goal of the labor movement. Keeping members working is the practical day to day goal. To do that, unions need contract and they need membership. Non-union labor robs them of both those things, and so labor demonstrates against non-union sites.

The rat is just for show, morale boosting and to keep unemployed members busy. The real reason the trades can keep getting contracts is that they have the educational and legal infrastructure to build quality projects on time and budget.

[unapatriciated]

19. yes my dad spent a lifetime cleaning up after non-union workers.

He was in major construction such as bridges and overpasses in California. He saw the corners that non-union contractors cut, because union help was used to fix their mistakes. His bridges and overpasses are still standing. Can't say the same for some built with non-union labor. I know I feel safer crossing a union built bridge.

[KitchenWitch]

10. UNION YES!

Thanks for your "concern" for workers' rights.

:eyes:

[NNN0LHI]

13. I have been banned before but I am not getting banned over what I would like to really say here

You ain't worth it.

Don

[I work for workers]

14. There is some truth to what you say.

At a local level unions aren't about all workers rights. They are about getting the best deal for the select workers of the union. Cutting aside the rhetoric, a union is just a lobbyist organization representing the group of workers paying for the service*. They need this kind of organization on their side. The big boys in the corner offices have huge legal staffs working for them, and unions give that infrastructure to the little guys too.

Unions do a lot of funny things. OC Choppers (the motorcycle guys) where getting picketed by the Carpenters union because their new building wasn't using union labor... ...for the carpentry. Literally every other construction union was involved, and the carpenters made sure to picket on weekends and lunches so no one would have to cross the line.

I thought the rat was a joke when I stated working for labor. It turns out it was hilariously true. Down in NYC, the non-union labor bought a bigger inflatable cat to set up by the rat. The unions are trying to get a bigger dog. No joke. It's going to look like the Thanksgiving Day parade when all is said and done.

Despite what I said, it's unfair to characterize unions in the way you did. Unions are almost always willing to work with management to provide a agreement that is beneficial to all sides, and labor invariably compromises to reach contracts.


*I always laugh when heard Edwards or Obama claim they don't take lobbyist money, because I know unions are campaigning for them, and labor brings the kind of campaign structure that candidates otherwise have to pay for.

[unapatriciated]

17. so it's a living wage that you object to.

not the unions.

[Liberal Veteran]

20. So what happens next year when the new CEO decides he needs more money?

And decides that health insurance would be a good place to start "cutting costs" or laying off workers who are getting too close to retirement because they get too much money or decides to take away paid sick time and vacations or punish workers for having obligations to their family that prevent them working overtime on short notice or doesn't bother to control supervisors with a personal grudge against a particular worker?

Who you gonna complain to? God?

[angstlessk]

23. There ya go..eggzactly correct..the CEO has a suggestion box that goes directly to the incinerator

and when the unions are ALL GONE..he will take a trip to Aruba on the backs of his workers pensions..healthcare...wages!

Who ya goin to complain to indeed!

[DemoTex]

22. Without unions, every airline flight would be like a game of Russian roulette.

Our unions fought and won battles against airline management, airline manufacturers, the federal government (FAA), and many more, that have made flying an airline in the US the safest mode of transportation available.

UNIONS:

ALPA & APA ... pilots

AFA .......... flight attendants

IAM & others . technicians

IBEW, CWA, and many, many more ...

ISSUES:

Airframe safety
Engine safety
Avionics safety
Crew duty
Fire detection and suppression
Collision avoidance systems (TCAS)
Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning Systems (EGPWS)
Two-engine over-water (ETOPS)
Etc, etc.

Bloody fights, all. Against those that do not care one whit about airline passenger or crew safety.

Airline unions: Keeping you asses and our asses alive.

[Robb]

24. Short-term vs. long-term

In the short term, for example:

Say there's a union that has negotiated a contract that says nope, zero overtime, pay us a living wage and we'll work 40 hours a week. Employer says fine.

All of a sudden, non-union workers say hey, we'll work overtime, we'd love the extra cash, benefits be damned... we're young, unmarried, etc.

So company re-designs budget to pay fewer workers for more hours, and less in benefits. Other companies must compete, look to non-union workers to help fill the gap.

Next step: benefits are a thing of the past. Young workers with few health bills get run hard and put away wet, look for jobs with healthcare -- and they aren't there.

[Omaha Steve]

28. This says it all

If you think it is incorrect, I'll be glad to talk rationally and at length.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=184NTV2CE_c

[fishwax]

29. Union YES!

http://www.beardstown.lib.il.us/community/UnionYes

[alfredo]

32. If it wasn't for my union, I'd be out on the streets. I would have lost my

job, my pension, my home. When I got injured on the job, the union stood by me, making sure my bosses didn't fuck me over.

I've worked union and non union shops. I'm a union man through and through.

[JosephSchmo]

33. Depends

I was in a union, I didn't like it. Cost too much to be in and I got almost nothing in return. But for the workers who had been there for years, their jobs were secure. The only way to get fired from that job was to stop showing up, steal or not pay your union dues.

[Octafish]

34. Unions built the middle class.

Middle class made America great -- better than the feudal system the kakistocratic Bush and his cronies are working to bring back.

[El Pinko]

35. I think equating unions with RATS is totally inappropriate.

I think every working person who makes less than 40K per year ought to be in a unions because we have all lost the ability to bargain for better wages. And stagnant wages for workers over the last 30 years is a big part of the reason our economy has been in the crapper for so long and only benefitted those at the top.


There are some unions out there that may not do the best job for their members. There are some that ask too much in negotiations. But on the whole, the effect of unions on the US economy and society has been positive - improving wages and safety for workers, and bringing a whole generation of working people into the middle class.


Shame on you for this post. If you characterize unions and by extension those who support them as "rats", it makes it a bit hard to believe you really treat your employees better than the unions do.

[fishwax]

38. the big inflatable rat is actually a prop the unions use at labor protests

:hi:

[El Pinko]

41. I wasn't aware of that (obviously).

Still, it seems like the poster is calling the unions people rats, to me.



I have to question the effectiveness of a prop like this, whichever side it's being used for...

[I work for workers]

44. It's mostly for morale purposes.

It's also used at strike lines, and it's a decent way to get attention.

[I work for workers]

40. Just to clarify, he isn't calling union workers rats.

Union workers are calling him a rat. Construction unions have a tradition of protesting with giant inflatable rats (like the one pictured) at non union job sites. I gather the OP is a non-union construction worker and doesn't appreciate it.

[El Pinko]

42. Yeah, I was just told.

Construction is notorious for good wages in boom times and unemployment in bad times. You'd think the OP would maybe like the prospect of better job security...

[Dawggie]

37. I once felt as you do.

And relised that if all employers treated their employees fairly that there would be no need for them. I figured that OSHA had taken over the role of the union in looking out for worker safety. I even worked in a plant back in the 70's and fought OSHA laws...

But OSHA is nothing more than a name anymore. The man who sells his labor has no voice today. It has been silenced. His jobs have been sent overseas or the corporations import third world people who are content to live like Tom Joad lived as a farmworker.

We need unions and we need an organised workforce or this country will just sell itself to Dubai and its Constitution will mean nothing.

[mmonk]

39. Who needs jobs?

Our corporate gods say low costs and wages makes for everyone winning the lotto. Build all the factories in countries with 25 cent labor and we can all eat our lawns.

[Sandaasu]

43. I see them as a useful tool.

Many groups need them, others don't. Sometimes some of them go too far, and demonize non-union labor too much, but the concept of the union is still sound.

[MilesColtrane]

45. This goes for the people who hire them too.

[Radical Activist]

47. The non-union employer wouldn't be paying those wages if it wasn't for the unions.

Non-union workers make more because of union organizing efforts that raise the prevailing wage. Why should non-union workers be able to reap the benefits of labor organizing without paying dues?

And its about more than pay. Any non-union worker is at the mercy of the company. Whether its their job getting outsourced and losing retirement benefits or getting screwed if you're hurt on the job. A worker without a union is SOL.

[LWolf]

49. Unequivocal YES.

It is the workers' take on how well the employer is treating them that counts.

A balance of power, making sure that a company does not exist to enrich a few at the expense of many, is essential to economic justice. No employer has a vested interest in smaller profits to ensure economic justice for those who DO THE WORK that provides those profits. Yet they hold the power to hire, fire, set wages, benefits, and working conditions.

An employer who deals well with employees has nothing to fear from unions.

[devilgrrl]

50. Awesome Union Bashing Thread!

:bounce: