Should this person be allowed to vote?

[lapislzi]

OK, I'm being facetious. Everyone should vote. This I believe. But...the raging ignorance of otherwise functional adults is enough to drive me to despair.

Scenario: my small office. Friendly political discussions abound. Mostly Dems, no hard feelings. I strike up a conversation with a fairly new hire in an entry-level position. I suspect that she is no Einstein, but she's pleasant and interested, a quick study.

"Did you vote today?" says I.
She looks anxious. "I really, really want to vote for Hillary. It's important. I'll go on my way home."
"Good for you. It IS important to vote."
Another nervous look. "Can I just go anywhere and vote? Can I vote here?" ("here" is not where she lives.)
Me: "No, you have to vote where you live. We can look it up."
She: "I've never voted before." (She is in her 30s.)
Me: "Are you registered to vote?"
She: "You have to register? How do you do that?"
Me: "OK, you're probably not registered then. We'll call and check. But even if you aren't, you can still register to vote in November."
She: "November? What's in November?"
Me: "The general election."
She: "But I want Hillary to be president."
Me: "Today isn't the presidential election. Today is a primary election."
She: "What's that? Does that mean Hillary won't be president after today?"
Me: "A primary is where the two parties choose their candidates for the presidential election. The Republicans choose their candidate and the Democrats choose theirs. Hillary is a Democrat."
She: "Oh, so this isn't the big one?"
Me: "No, you get another chance after this."
She: (happily) "Oh, so it's like American Idol. Someone gets voted off."
Me: "It's just like that. Come on, let's get you registered to vote."

I can't help but wonder if I'm actually performing a disservice to my fellow citizens by encouraging this clueless person to vote. I will surely have my work cut out for me trying to cram some high-school civics into her head between now and November. I cautioned her not to get her news from the TV, but to read the paper or read the news on the internet. All the while wondering how representative she is of the general electorate. And how sad the state of public education that an ordinary citizen doesn't even know how to vote.

Mods, I am posting in GD because this is about voting, not a specific candidate. This is not about Hillary. The discussion would have gone the same way if she had said she wanted to vote for McCain.

[DS1]

1. What's Maddy McCall's IQ range?

:P

[Maddy McCall]

3. 30s

It's in the dialogue.

[Maddy McCall]

2. Someone had to teach you about voting. Someone had to teach me.

I consider what you're doing honorable. Except for ridiculing her.

[lapislzi]

14. Sorry if it came across as ridicule

I am not the most patient person in the world, but I made a sincere effort with her and also endeavored NOT to patronize. I hope I was not overtly judgmental when speaking to her. Privately, I have nothing but contempt for ignorance. Note, I said "ignorance" the state of being--a state of being that can be corrected. I would not presume to judge the person, or the circumstances that led her there.

[treestar]

16. I don't know, someone in their 30s has had the opportunity

To be at least that aware of the world around them.

I know a lot of dumb people, but this lady sounds extra dumb. Unless she can actually be classified as mentally disabled, she really has made the choice to pay no attention whatsoever to the world around her.

She's lucky she has an entry level job in her 30s.

[petronius]

26. It sounds as though she took the time to learn how AI voting works,

so there is no reason she couldn't choose to make a similar effort for our political system. To some extent she's a product of her culture, but that excuse only goes so far. I agree with you - she's extra-ignorant...

[Scriptor Ignotus]

35. I know many college-educated people who do not follow politics

AT ALL. not the news, not nothing. this is not indicative of their lack of intelligence, it's indicative of a broken governmental system that has disenfranchised millions. I get pissed at these friends of mine from time to time, but this is America after all.

[EOTE]

58. Seriously.

There's a time and a place for learning about our voting system. It's called grade school.

[Arkansas Granny]

17. I didn't see the remarks as ridicule. I would be astounded

to find someone in that age group who had such little understanding of our voting system. I would think that most people of average intelligence would have been much more aware of the process and the voting schedule if they paid even minimal attention to the news, whether TV, print or other media.

[blondeatlast]

19. ...

:thumbsup:

I was lucky enough to learn much of the process from activist parents. As wilth all things parental, some are luckier than others (I'm hopeless when it comes to athletics, for instance).

So she used "American Idol" as a recognizable point of reference? That's actually pretty accurate in its way.

[Pacifist Patriot]

28. I did not see ridicule at all.

In fact, I was impressed with the discretion of the OP. I would have had far less patience with an American in their 30s who didn't realize this was a primary and not the general election. Or didn't know you had to register to vote. I'd probably be on the phone with her school board and blessing them out. ;)

[dysfunctional press]

48. but it IS ridiculous that someone in their 30's is that clueless.

unless she's mentally disabled.

and since she wants hillary to be president- that's a very real possibility.

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. I don't entirely agree.

I had to learn how to be a citizen. It wasn't incumbent on someone to teach me.

It has been this woman's responsibility since she was 18 to perform her duties as a citizen, and she didn't make her first modest attempts until she was in her 30's. Too much on TV, I guess.

But I do find it intriguing what finally motivated her to do her job.

[El Pinko]

4. I suppose. It sucks, but even stupid people should vote.

Hopefully she'll get more informed when she becomes more aware of the connection between what happens in Washington and her pocketbook.

[Fovea]

5. Civics...

Has reached the level of importance as sanskrit in the American educational system.
If we want this to change, we better be changing it this next term.

[Lasher]

6. Better make sure she can legally vote.

People from other planets aren't normally allowed to register.

[RedStateShame]

7. Funny you bring this up, because I discussed this proposition I had at work:

I proposed that citizens vote for the next president OR the next American Idol, but not both.

[bryant69]

8. She's heading the right way, at least.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[treestar]

13. But then again who knows where she'll be in November?

The wind can easily shift in that kind of mind.

[Aviation Pro]

9. I'm guessing that she graduated from high school around....

....1990. Which means she probably got zero civics courses during the "heady" days of the Reagan/Bush I administrations. See how dumbing down Americans has helped the Republican cause?

[Graybeard]

10. b-b-but most U.S. Americans don't have maps.

Gee, I mean, like, ya know?

[Raejeanowl]

11. OK, I'll Bite

A retired legislative aide, I know better, but I cannot help myself but say, "She can't possibly be that stupid."

Some are just that abysmally ignorant of the process.

[lapislzi]

18. No embellishment.

Conversation was condensed for clarity, but that's pretty much how it went. On the plus side, almost everyone else in my office voted. The discussions have been great, and I think they are drawing her interest. All good. I don't think she's representative of the electorate around here (NY), but I think she represents a significant minority. Some can be reached.

[trof]

12. Many of the folks who vote down here scare the hell out of me.

At least she's trying.
:eyes:

[malta blue]

15. I had a similar conversation with a co-worker yesterday

who said "Malta Blue - you are going to be so mad at me. I did not vote. I have never voted."

Yes, a woman in her 30s, has never voted. I told her I would forgive her as long as she voted in the GE. She said she can't, she would not know who to pick. I told her the republicans want to abolish gay rights (she is a lesbian) and abortion. She said "Oh well, I guess I'm a democrat then".

So I converted one, but I find it hard to believe that she really was that clueless.

[trof]

20. My wife's parents never voted in their entire lives.

Salt of the earth types.
He was a carpenter and she was a stay at home mom.
Both were part time small farmers with a few cattle.
He said it didn't matter. They're all the same and they're all crooked.
:shrug:

[islandmkl]

21. I agree with Aviation Pro...

since the 80's the level of 'civics' education has been under assault. The power structures, right AND left, operate much easier if the electorate is uninvolved. Uninvolvement begins with being unaware and uneducated about how things work. He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool...shun him.

He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is willing...teach him.

He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep...awaken him.

He who knows, and knows that he knows, is wise...follow him. proverb/various

[Zywiec]

22. Sure she should be allowed to vote.

Do you want to start testing voters?

:shrug:

[lazyriver]

23. A shame really, how our system allows one to reach their

30's and not learn a single thing about our most important right and duty. Another poster in this thread guessed your co-worker graduated HS around 1990, as I did. I can vouch for the case that poster stated about the lack of civics taught to the school kids of the Reagan years. I didn't have a civics class until college and only got involved in the political process after seeking out the knowledge myself. Our schools and society as a whole are perfectly content to let us live our lives happy and ignorant.

I've met a number of people like this recently and try my best to help them but at the same time I keep reflecting on a concept Al Gore put forth in Assault on Reason. Public discourse is all but dead in America today. We have so little intelligent meaningful public discussion about politics and civics in most of America, I wonder how important the right to vote even is anymore. So many of the voters are making their decisions based solely on the opinions formed while watching the evening news and GMA or from sound bites from the trivia and scandal sniffing talking head pundits, that I wonder if helping such people find there way through the voting process is helping or hurting us as a whole.

I continue to help the democratically challenged for one reason alone: If I don't help them become voters, some whack job right wing organization might. We have fundie churches that make large pushes to register people to vote around here. I work with one of the organizers at my job and he makes no secret of the fact they are recruiting as much as helping people understand the process. I figure if I can help a few people learn how to get involved while explaining how to inform themselves of the issues and the real facts about candidates, there is a much better chance such people won't be manipulated into supporting what is good for the fundie movement.

[Johonny]

25. I'm laying this one on the individual

I grew up in Ronald Reagan America in a red, red woot Reagan area and I got taught basic civics. Heck we even had mock elections in grade school (I was 1 of 2 to vote for Carter). In the age of the information super highway where 5 seconds on wikipedia can inform you a lot, it's kind of hard to believe complete utter lack of information on how to vote is our systems fault. Heck most schools don't have drivers education, and Americans seem to figure out on their own how to get a drivers license all right. That process is much more painful than registering to vote and voting.

[lazyriver]

46. I agree the ultimate responsibility is with the individual.

I assumed that responsibility myself, even before the age of the internet, so I know how easily it can be done. However, I also think we are missing out on a major opportunity to bring real democracy back to America by doing so little to teach our young people about the importance of the process. I grew up in northern NJ in a county with some of the best rated public schools in the country at the time. Most schools in that county required driver education in high school just like they required health education (general health, nutrition, and sex ed). Basic Civics wasn't even offered as an elective. They squeezed a little in with History I & II. They made sure all the males were informed about registering for selective service (in gym class, during workshops on preparing for college, and through guidance counselors and even sports coaches), but the only time I remember hearing anything about registering to vote was during driver ed when the teacher made a bad joke about being called for jury duty if you registered to vote when you went to get your driver's license. I'm glad to hear you were exposed to civics early, wish I was and wish more people were. Perhaps, if we all were, there would be far fewer people like the young lady described by the OP.

[DeeDeeNY]

24. This story is sad and kind of scary

It's sad that she knows more about American Idol than the US election process, but scary that has she managed to go through life as an adult and continue to remain so ignorant. Good for you to help her with this!

[NoSheep]

27. We should be helpful to the uneducated about the process.

It is in everyone's best interest. Think of the reasons why this person may not know what to do or how to do it.

[Pacifist Patriot]

29. I'd want to know the school system from which she graduated.

Eee gads!

[lapislzi]

32. Metro NY--Yonkers

Low income urban area, surrounded on all sides by some of the costliest real estate on the planet. To say that she and her family have had few opportunities and some hard luck would be an understatement. This woman works 3 jobs and NEVER complains. It's a cryin' shame.

[rosesaylavee]

30. To graduate from high school,

since at least the 70s when I was there, you have to pass a government test your Junior year in order to graduate from high school. On this test is basic information about the history of our country and the election process and how to participate. At 30, she is hopefully an anomaly and not the norm. She has had this information given her at least once before.

Does she have a learning disability? Where has she spent the last 12 years? Has she not been aware of politics on the television for the past 30 years? I would guess you will find all sorts of other common knowledge missing other than this with this employee. Heads up.

And, I do think it was very kind of you to take her in hand and show her how to do it. Good for you!

[lapislzi]

33. She works 3 jobs

After she leaves her f/t job here, she waitresses in the evenings. Then she has a weekend job too. As far as I can tell there is nothing organically wrong with her brain. She catches on. But after working 3 jobs, commuting, paying her bills, and taking care of her small household, maybe she's just too tired to give a fuck, and I can't say as I blame her, really. I got your reality TV right here. Maybe all she wants to do is watch some kid on the TV strike it big, because that would mean it could also happen to her. (She's an inveterate lottery player, too.)

[rosesaylavee]

43. Well, bless her.

I don't think I would care a fuck either if that was my life and schedule. Thanks for helping her.

[-..__...]

31. Ohh, poo! Kelly Clarkson isn't on the ballot.

:-(

[uppityperson]

34. Educate educate educate educate

[Kitty Herder]

54. Athletic programs and our lack of quality secondary education.

Hear me out.

The school district from which I graduated valued athletics far more then education.

I can see how someone who graduated from my high school could be that uneducated. Any education we actually received there was purely accidental. Most of our teachers weren't teachers. They were coaches. Most had degrees in Physical Education. I had a classes from the both the main football coach (civics) and the main basketball coach (computer science) and they both played computer games all through class while we students were expected to read the textbook. All they ever actually did as teachers was give quizzes and tests. Everyone cheated. In my civics class, the cheating wasn't even hidden, but Coach didn't care. There were about four of us who everyone copied answers from. I was fortunate to actually get some education in civic because I was one of the four. I had to read the text and study or face the wrath of my peers if I did poorly on the test. That was a pretty good motivator. But those who simply copied my answers got no education in civics at all. So out of a class of around thirty, about four of us actually learned something.

The A.P. biology teacher(volleyball coach and P.E. major) frequently missed about half of the class period and only got us through half of the textbook before the end of the year. I read the text on my own. In spite of my teacher, I scored a 5 on the A.P. test. She sent me a note thanking me for making her look good. :puke: :mad:

After my high school experience, I have come to the conclusion that if we want decent secondary education, we need to remove the athletics programs from our schools. We can have independent community athletic clubs for kids to join after school like they do elsewhere in the world. It certainly wouldn't solve all the problems with our education system. Far from it. But it would help in places like my hometown. I know it's not the only place in the country that sacrifices education for sports.

There are other, more important reasons for the poor quality of education in this country. Like the fact that a dumbed down population is less likely to question authority and is more suited to the menial jobs that are the fate of the majority of the population. But I'm bringing this up because no one likes to talk about it.

Alright. You can flame me now.

[uppityperson]

55. Absolutely no flames from me

How about cutting school librarians, those who teach kids how to learn to look things up, because of NCLB's focus on answering test questions correctly?

Many of us talk about dumbed down education with the focus put on the wrong things. Right now it's Primary Season so the focus is on that. Welcome to DU.

[lapislzi]

59. To quote my very wise SO (a teacher himself)

"If I were an administrator, I'd stand in front of the school and shoot the first son of a bitch who walked in with a ball."

It grieves me to see my daughter's middle school packed to the gills for a basketball game, when the orchestra plays to a nearly empty auditorium.

Welcome to DU, herdincats! :hi:

edited to welcome new DUer.

[BoneDaddy]

36. I would consider this a victory

Obviously this person has not thought it important enough to vote in the past. She, unfortunately, could probably represent a good amount of people in America who, regardless of their IQ, never believed in the process or thought it affected them enough to. Seems like some things have changed. From what I have seen alot of people are coming out of the woodwork who never had voted before. I guess I consider that a good thing.

[JBoy]

37. The primaries are just like American Idol

except Anderson Cooper plays the role of Ryan Seacrest.

[IronLionZion]

38. Hehe, I'm not even registered to vote in Minnesota...BUT I VOTED!!!

Oh I live for this shit. Turnout was so high for the Minnesota caucuses that nobody checked anyone's documents or anything...at least in my precinct. I asked people I know who were not even US citizens to come out and caucus. I caucused for Obama, whose campaign is not so subtly encouraging this gaming of the system, and he won Minnesota by a landslide.

[IronLionZion]

39. I know an Obama supporter who caucused for Hillary just to make me mad

She said Hillary was going to win anyway so it didn't matter. Obama won big in Minnesota. Should people like that vote? hell yes, everyone should vote. It's up to us to encourage them to make informed decisions.

[fenriswolf]

40. she is going to push a button blindly

in the primaries only people who actually look at the issues and make an intelligent decision should vote IMHO because we want a candidate representing us for the issues. IN the GE thats when we need all the button pushers we can get. We do not need monkeys pushing buttons in the primaries.

[Ikonoklast]

41. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Congratulations on helping your co-worker take that first step.

[The Stranger]

42. Just shoot her.

Do us all a favor.

[madmom]

44. this same thing happened with my SO at his work, the person (male) didn't know

about primaries, didn't know much of any thing having to do with the election. Do these people live under a rock? Turn off ESPN once in a while!

[Arctic Dave]

45. Lucky you

I think oppurtunity just knocked on your door. It is not every day that we are given the chance to help people in a way that can impact their lives. I had plenty of times in my life when I didn't know shit from shinola but someone took the time to teach me how things are done. Also, just because they make a reference to Amereican Idol doesn't mean that they are an idiot, it's just their way of associating it to something they can relate with.

[dysfunctional press]

47. "high-school civics..."

:rofl:

they don't HAVE civics classes in most high schools anymore. for a lot of us, it was a REQUIRED course for graduation.

not any more.

the corporatists worst enemy is an educated electorate.

[lapislzi]

49. UPDATE on my willing pupil

She told me that she watched Obama's speech on the TV and really liked what he had to say. I explained that the party has no clear candidate yet because more states still have to vote and then there's a big meeting during the summer with a lot of speeches and more voting. Only then will we have a confirmed candidate. She said she liked Hillary and Obama and would be happy to vote for either one in November. She thinks the war is terrible and is, like so many of us, one missed car payment or one medical emergency away from disaster. I call myself fortunate that she asked me for help and not the office freepette.

Staggering on, rejoicing.

[lumberjack_jeff]

57. You've earned your gold star.

:thumbsup:

I'm still dumbfounded that in the grip of the information age, people can be so ignorant.

[JerseygirlCT]

50. Holy cow. My 8 yo understands more than that!

We do a thoroughly crappy job teaching civics in this country, don't we? No wonder our voting percentages are so horribly low.

[yardwork]

51. I know a great many people who are this clueless, and they are not unintelligent.

Imagine a country where, instead of being bombarded by ads telling us to eat the latest Big Mac and encouraging us to demonize Democrats, we received public service announcements telling and reminding people how and where to register to vote.

Imagine a country where in high school civics classes students were taught how our voting system works, instead of being asked to write essays discussing why "Republicans think, Democrats feel." (See another of today's thread.)

[fight4my3sons]

52. This just happened to me earlier today while on the phone.

I was speaking to a friend and mentioned the caucus this weekend. She said "oh, yeah. Are we supposed to go to that?" I think I almost choked at that point. I have forwarded all the information that she needs from the Dem page in our state.

[Vektor]

53. How sad...try to help her.

Her heart's in the right place, she is just ignorant of the process.

Be kind, and help walk her through it. Maybe she has led a sheltered life, but would like to learn more. If she is in her 30's in an entry level position, and a new hire, she may have stayed home in her younger days raising kids or something and never really "got involved."

She's trying - she just needs some assistance.