A hypothetical about college choices when athletics are involved.

[Buzz Clik]

This question is about couple (good friends) with a daughter about to graduate from high school and zeroing in on her college choices. The high schooler (we'll call her "June") is a very talented athlete and is being pursued by a handful of Division I schools. She is also on her way to being valedictorian of her high school. Her parents are successful entrepreneurs and can afford to send her anywhere, including some academically amazing small schools that would love her have her compete for them.

At this point, June has narrowed down her choices to essentially two:

1) A big school with a famous athletic department. The school has had multiple national championships in one men's sport, but limited success on the women's side. It's a solid academic institution, but it is not first tier. The school might offer a partial athletic scholarship, but it is quite possible she might have to simply walk on with no financial assistance from athletics.
2) A small, extraordinary, private academic institution with a balance of men's and women's sports (Division III). No athletic scholarships are available.

With her high school grades and SAT scores, June will be able to secure some scholarships based solely on academic merit. In neither case will she be able to assemble even 50% of her tuition and fees from various sources of financial support; both schools are out of state and will be expensive.

What would you do? The big school with the big athletic prestige, or the small school with better academics but Division III athletics?

[Captain Angry]

1. What does she want to do?

Do the two schools offer other opportunities outside of school? In other words, if the little school that is awesome is in Wyoming, she'll be somewhat isolated.

If the athletics is her passion, she should go to a place where she will have more chance to compete at a high level.

If she has specific occupations in mind for down the road, will the school be in an area that will let her access those jobs?

Will the campuses be very diverse, or will she be around a lot of people that are very similar?


Just some thoughts.

[Buzz Clik]

23. I'll try to answer all your questions:

1) Both schools are near nice metropolitan areas.
2) She could compete at both schools. At the larger school, she would not compete regularly as a freshman (other than training with the team). The large school would have rigid workout schedules. In contrast, the at the smaller school, she'd be a starter from day one, and the athletic demands would be far less.
3) Jobs -- these days, employers are big recruiters at all schools. This will not be an issue at either.
4) I don't have much information about diversity at the small school, but the larger one is diverse.

[Kittycat]

2. B) Education is the most important thing, IMO.

She will get the best of both worlds. Likely be a starter or star player in her particular sport in regards to her team. But on the same end, have access to an education that few would - and could likely net her a much higher start in life. Something many would do anything for.

[sheelz]

5. What she said

[Warpy]

7. An athletic career is notoriously short

even for male athletes who go on from college to pro sports. Most don't end up with much of an education to brag about and little money to show for it. The picture is even worse for women. The only worse picture is for kids with high school garage bands with dreams of being international rock stars. It takes as much luck as talent and generally doesn't last long.

However, solid academics will last for a lifetime, as will the contacts she makes in an institution that pushes them.

Since School A is already giving women short shrift in sports, the choice should be an easy one for her unless her only aim is to marry a famous male sports star.

[Kittycat]

9. Here. Here.

9 Years of Vball - 2 years in college/University, and I ended up pulling out to keep up with my studies (and because I was going under an academic scholarship in year 2). 13 years later, all I have to show for the sports, are bad knees and a faded memories. But my degrees put food on the table.

[stahbrett]

3. Could June realistically compete as a professional after college?

If the sport is basketball, is June potentially good enough to make it into the WNBA, and if so is that something June would want to do? That would definitely tilt things towards the larger school, in my opinion. Otherwise go with the school that June feels most comfortable - some like huge universities, others prefer small colleges.

[Buzz Clik]

24. No such thing as a pro athlete in her sport. Regardless, her talent is not that great.

Her sport is in the Olympics, and she is not on anyone's radar for the Olympics. (As with many sports, this is one where women reach their prime fairly early.)

[davidinalameda]

4. go Division I

she'll get a good education

I'm sure that the school has honor classes and since she's an athlete, she'll get priority in scheduling

and at a major university, the selection of classes is probably better than the smaller school

[rurallib]

6. Plus tutors as needed.

Had a friend with a similar choice. They chose big school. Her academic were well taken care of. She got a masters. Can't remember the field now - had to do with sports medicine.

[davidinalameda]

11. forgot about tutors

thanks

[Buzz Clik]

28. This young woman is going to be valedictorian of a large high school.

Her need for tutors will be minimal.

However, you are correct. The support mechanism for athletics at a D-I school usually is excellent.

[Buzz Clik]

26. Having been down that road with a Div I school, many of your comments are not quite correct.

Yes, she'll get a good education, but athletes only sometimes get priority. Given the rigors of athletic training and competitions at a D-I school, an athlete really cannot schedule a class after 1 or 2 pm. Scheduling labs becomes nearly impossible. Not so at the smaller school were academics come first.

Even with all that, if she is dedicated to going to the larger school, she might be willing to take 5 years to graduate.

[davidinalameda]

43. some smaller schools are nearly as bad as the larger schools

it's all about brining in donor money

some donors will pony up with good teams

some will withhold money if the teams aren't doing that good

the school can use the success of athletic teams as concrete proof that they're being successful

it's a bit harder to quantify that your school has an outstanding accounting program or history program

and the best programs in the vast majority of fields are at the bigger schools

[tularetom]

8. If she can afford it, she should select the small school

Our son got a full ride (football) to a Division I school although not one known as a football power. He blew out his knee in the first game he played in and never participated in another down. They did keep him on scholarship for two more years but he sure as hell didn't learn anything there that would help him in later life. He left there 12 units shy of graduating to take a job with the police department. He scored 1250 on his SAT's so he would have been capable of handlin the academic workload at many smaller more scholarly institutions.

He's now 42 and doing OK but he still regrets his decision to choose athletics over academics.

[Buzz Clik]

29. Excellent points.

Learned the hard way, unfortunately.

[AlCzervik]

10. Does she know what she wants to major in?

[Buzz Clik]

30. Sort of, and your question gets to the heart of the difficulty with the small school.

Freshmen often think they know what they'd like to do, but something like 60% change their minds at least once before graduation. At a small school, the options for majors are quite limited.

[Buzz Clik]

12. Thank you for your comments and questions. I'll answer the questions later...

I'm not ignoring this thread, just hoping that it gets a bit more response. I have some very strong biases about this issue and don't want to spill them just yet.

Thanks again. I'll clarify probably tomorrow morning.

[ooga booga]

13. I'm inclined to suggest the smaller school.

Having attended one of those Division I schools with "a major brand," I have to say that it was fun being there and watching our athletes pile up victory after victory. However, the older I get, the less I'm impressed by all of that stuff. To me now (30 years later), I think that those athletes are just using the university's good name and that they have almost no real claim to being authentic students.

You're supposed to be there to get an education. I think it's smarter to get the best education you can -- and, perhaps, participate in sports on the side as a REAL student athlete.

[Buzz Clik]

31. Thanks. I agree with your point of view in many ways.

[alarimer]

14. Smaller school

At small schools the professors teach the classes, not some Chinese graduate student you can barely understand (of course your professor might be Chinese too!). But mostly small schools can offer the kind of individualized attention that is impossible at large universities. Had I gone to a big school, I would have gotten lost and probably dropped out. I would have felt invisible and unknown.
At my school, all my professors knew my name. On their say so I was given jobs (I worked in a physics lab) that I might never have gotten.

Not to mention that she will be guaranteed a lot of playing time at the small school, instead of riding the bench for a year or two.

Better academics trump EVERYTHING.

[Buzz Clik]

32. "Better academics trump EVERYTHING." I almost completely agree.

More on this in my final comment at the bottom of this thread (coming a bit later).

[XemaSab]

15. Go to the small school

I didn't even BOTHER applying to Berkeley because when I was in HS I had a friend who went part time.

Her into to Calculus class had 400 people in it.

My into to Calculus class at Humboldt State had 40. :shrug:

[Buzz Clik]

33. Some good points in that.

And she'd be at an academcially outstanding, small school. From the perspective of class size, it's a no-brainer.

[Mz Pip]

16. If her parents can afford it

she should go to the school that offers the best program in what she wants to study. Also she should visit the schools she is interested in attending. Don't accept and offer to a place you've never been. It can be a real shock. I've worked with students who have chosen to attend universities they have never visited and have ended up dropping out because they were disappointed that the school was either too big or too small or too far away or too close to home or didn't really have the right program.

Unless she is so talented at her chosen sport that there is a reasonable possibility that she has some shot at a professional career, that should probably be a secondary factor in her choice.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Buzz Clik]

34. Excellent comments.

She will visit both schools. One of the advantages of being recruited.

[Buzz Clik]

17. Any other opinions from the Sunday morning GD crowd?

[dysfunctional press]

18. small school- she'd probably be able to stand out as an athlete...

and would ultimately find her college years more rewarding.

at the big school, she would probably become frustrated over the disparity in attention/funds that go to the male team sports vs. female.

[AngryAmish]

19. The warmer climate

Froze my ass off in the midwest.

Actually, in all seriousness, go to one where there is a strong alumni where she wants to live. Not as important as her prep school but it helps.

[Buzz Clik]

35. And the bad news is ....

... both schools are in the Midwest. About 200 miles apart.

[AngryAmish]

46. sounds like the big school is ND

I don't like ND for a host of reasons but the alums do look after each other. Domers seem to have liked the place. I would recommend it generally but not my kid.

[Buzz Clik]

49. No, no. The big school is not nearly the caliber of ND.

ND is definitely not a second tier school.

[dsc]

20. I went to a small, liberal arts school with a good regional reputation

and have not been disappointed. In this particular case I would think it depends upon what she wants. If the division 1 school is well known for what she wants to major in, and she believes she can handle the large classes and teaching assistants at a big school, then she might be better off there. To use a concrete example, an engineering student in NC would be way better off at NC State than say Elon despite Elon possibly being better otherwise. But if the division 1 school isn't known for her major then I would go with the small school.

[Buzz Clik]

36. Excellent comments.

Fortunately, she has been making her selections based on her academic interests.

[taterguy]

21. I would hope that my parents' friends minded their own business and let me make my own decisions

But that's just me :P

[Buzz Clik]

22. Nice try and being snarky, but I have not discussed this with them. Nor will I.

[taterguy]

25. So why are you posting it here?

As if we have nothing better to do than spend our valuable time composing advice that will never be used in any way shape or form.

Actually I don't.

Sigh.

[Buzz Clik]

37. LOL!

It's the weekend. I have nothing better to do at the moment. And, I'd rather discuss it here that impose my unsolicited opinions on the family.

[porphyrian]

27. Take all of the money for school and go tour Europe. -n/t

[Buzz Clik]

38. Her parents have enough cash that she can do both.

[porphyrian]

40. Then, there you go. Take classes in Europe while touring. -n/t

[Buzz Clik]

41. That would be Option C.

:shrug:

[Wetzelbill]

39. big school with athletic prestige....

If she's playing sports several things come into play. Time. Athletes have to spend crazy amounts of time dedicated to a sport. As a student-athlete a degree from a solid academic program is impressive, couple that with her athletic background and good grades, she is still in great shape to enter grad school, internships or to move straight into her career. Plus, if she wants to move up in academic prestige, she can always go to a more prestigious school with a more prestigious grad program.

Also, if she's competing as an athlete, you only have a certain time to test yourself as an athlete. Going to a bigger program and taking a crack at it is something that she may have to do personally. If a person, and I should say that I was an internationally competitive athlete, goes with a smaller program and wonders in the back of their mind for the rest of their life about if they could have cut it in the big-time, well, that is a tough thing to live with. Trust me, I live with something similar to an extent.

And also, education in our country is iffy. Some institutions have more prestige etc, but I have been in two programs that were rated in the top ten for undergrads in the country at the time I entered them, and, in the end, I got out of them what I put into it. One program had classes that were almost a joke, they were rated 6th in the country at the time which is one reason why I chose to go there, and the classes were so worthless I didn't even show up to many of the lectures. One class I went to two lectures and it was so indoctrinated, I just started showing up to take the tests and did the readings on my own. I got "A"s in those classes, maybe one "B" somewhere in there, but mostly "A"s. Most of the time, it's just getting the diploma that matters technically. You can still get a diploma and not be all that well-trained in that program. What will matter is that she gets into a solid program and takes it upon herself to find a career course that she is passionate about. Then she can take time to work hard and learn. If a program is solid, and she's dedicated she'll learn every bit as much, if not more, than she would anywhere else.

Look, Bush has two degrees from Harvard and Yale, and that moron could fuck up a cup of coffee. Her dedication and passion as an individual will mean more than the program in the end.

[Buzz Clik]

45. "Her dedication and passion as an individual will mean more than the program in the end." True...

... but that is always the case. However, a big name academically can give you a leg up throughout your career, though it doesn't trump talent and drive.

[Buzz Clik]

42. Here's my perspective on this:

We have been friends with that family for nearly ten years. Our daughters have been teammates that entire time. Both are being heavily recruited for their sport, though June is a far better student than our daughter.

My feeling is that a decision about going to a school based exclusively on athletic opportunities is a bad decision. It seems that just about all posters on this thread agree, and, fortunately, June is not making that mistake. Both schools will provide solid academic opportunities as well as the chance to pursue athletics.

We already shipped off four kids to college, including a D-I athlete. His approach was outstanding: a) he made a list of what he wanted from a school (including athletics); b) he listed ten schools that he'd like to represent athletically; c) we helped him rank the schools academically based on his interests. It boiled down to only two schools. At that point, we didn't care about his choice because he would have a top-notch academic experience no matter what happened athletically. (He was talented both academically and athletically, and this opened a lot of doors.)

We've taken a similar approach with our daughter. She'll be going to a midsized school with very good academics and a nice match athletically.

For June, I wish I could shake her parents and tell them to step back. They have helped her with her selection process. They are willing to pay for either school, and now it's time to leave her alone.

The parents favor the big school because of name recognition in athletic circles (for the men's sport), relatives in the area, and a few of June's friends who've been accepted there. Their perspectives are blind to the relative academic strengths.

If they ever ask me for my advice, I would strongly recommend the small school in this case. Some of the comments on this thread about class size are dead on. My wife and I both teach at an enormous institution. A class with 150 students is considered midsized. We recognize that struggling students could easily get lost. June is an excellent student, but she doesn't like crowds and struggles making new friends. Being tossed into an ocean of students would be bad news for her. The big disadvantage of the smaller school is lack of flexibility -- if she changes her mind about her major, she'd have few choices.

Thanks for your input.

[Warren Stupidity]

44. Is her heart in it? She should follow her bliss.

If she is going to get to play at a division I school, and if she truly loves athletics, then she should go for it. She's smart, her family can afford the tuition, money it seems is not an issue. You are only young enough to compete at this level once in a lifetime. She will have plenty of time later to work on her career.

I have one kid (my last) in a similar situation, a gifted athelete, never going to have a professional career, but if he has a chance at playing at a competitive level in college I think he should make that choice and never look back. Then again he hates the academic side.

[knitter4democracy]

47. An example from my family:

My stepbrother was the star athlete at our high school, the big man on campus. He was recruited to go to a small school and play football or could go to a Big Ten school and not play football. The Big Ten school was cheaper and had the major he wanted but no football chance. The small school didn't have the major he wanted, was more expensive, and promised a college football career. He chose the small school.

It was the dumbest thing he could've done. He ended up only playing maybe five minutes for all four years, since he just plain wasn't fast enough or good enough to be first string, even though the coach made all sorts of promises when recruiting him. His major was worth crap, and he ended up having to do more training to get the job he wanted. All that money went right down the drain. If he'd gone to Michigan State, it would've been cheaper, and he wouldn't have needed the extra training.

She should really consider how much she loves this sport and whether she really wants to have her four years in the sun. She should go where it's cheaper and better for what she wants to do, regardless of her sport. Even if she goes to the smaller school, there's no guarantee she'll play much or that she won't get hurt. If they don't have the major(s) she wants, they're not worth the money.

[Buzz Clik]

48. That's very good advice. Fortunately, ...

... she has narrowed down to the two schools that offer he basically what she's looking for both academically and athletically.

And I could not agree with you more about making a choice of going to a small school based on playing a sport. I have seen brilliant students and mediocre athletes end up at some dump of a university (or junior college) just so they could play ball for a couple more years. Good god.

[knitter4democracy]

50. Then price should be a factor, too.

I know you've said that her parents can afford either, but that's a huge difference in price. I went to a small evangelical college myself, and while I had a few great profs and smaller classes, I had far less available to me than I would've had if I'd gone to State or Western or some other bigger school.

[Buzz Clik]

51. Both schools are out of state. The cost difference will be minimal.

[knitter4democracy]

52. Ah. Then she should decide based on her visits.

One of my students (I used to teach in college prep Catholic schools before I had our children) was bound and determined to go to Harvard. She decided to take a look at Princeton, too, while out visiting Harvard. She fell in love with Princeton and never looked back. Her trip to Harvard wasn't as nice, she didn't like where it was in Boston, and she said Princeton felt like home.

Point is, she should visit both and see what she likes and doesn't like about both. She'll know in her gut which is the right place for her. :)