Primary vs. Caucus

[Froward69]

Having never done a Caucus I was apprehensive. Now after the fact I prefer Caucus. More of a "neighborhood meeting" socializing with fellow Democrats. Granted, having a set time excludes some. Instead of all day voting (primary) when someone can vote when they can.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23087573/
I was wondering, what is DU's Collective thought?

on edit I forgot to add the article.

[Captain Hilts]

1. Caucuses are not as inclusive and do not accurately replicate the voting process. nt

[frazzled]

2. In populous states, primaries are impractical; in smaller (or redder states) ...

caucusescan be important party-building structures. So I don't think there are one-size-fits-all answers here.

This is a highly unusual election year, in which the question suddenly becomes pertinent to ask. Normally, no one gives a hoot how state parties arrange their contests. We shouldn't make rash decisions based on the specifics of this particular race ... but rather try to sift the wheat from the chaff once all the exigencies of a rare close contest are completed and passions are tempered.

[Froward69]

3. I agree

I was impressed at my turnout at my Caucus (previous record = 55 this year = 633) It seemed chaotic however turned out to be a bonding experience for my neighborhood. we all know one another now and say hello at the supermarket, or the park, etc. the "Hood" seems a friendlier, more tightly knit place now.

[KellyW]

5. notes from the front line

I have put alot of thought into this. In Washington State we have both, but the Dems never use the primary results. I do like my own caucus, which is always a congenial affair. I like to meet my neighbors. This time there were 13 for Obama and 8 for Clinton and 1 uncommitted- a record turnout. That resulted in 3 delegates for Obama and 2 for Clinton.

I didn’t like explaining to hundreds of angry people why the State Democratic Party was disenfranchising them.

Here are some notes I made from the local blogs:

http://blog.michaelcanfield.net/

Less than three hours until my caucus ...
... and I still don't know if I am going to go. I went to the supermarket this morning. Of course the supermarket is open, and the coffee shops, the DVD store and everything else. On one street there are hundreds of employees who have to work today and won't have to change to caucus. That sucks. I used to work Saturdays at a job I held two years ago. We had primaries then, which was good for me, or otherwise I would not have been able to participate.

This year, because of the new schedule and (holy law of unintended consequences, Batman!) a dead heat provided by un-Super Tuesday, the Washington State delegates are actually important. I hope the Democrats are not counting too heavily on the disenfranchised shift workers in this and other caucus states next November. Even though this seems to favor my candidate Obama, right now in primary season, this sucks.

It's disgusting.

Fuck you Washington State Democratic Party apparatus.

.......
http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/davidpostman/2008/02/gregoire_says_state_dems_embraced_message_of_change.html#start_comments

9:17 PM, Feb 09, 2008
My thoughts on the WA held Democratic caucus. It was a complete disaster and the following Stranger article sums it up for me.
I say to the WA Democratic party - PLEASE BRING BACK THE PRIMARY system where we have time to vote, allows ALL people to vote, does not waste our time, is done in secrecy and is a lot more democratic IMO.
"Maybe the caucus system works--when precincts have at most 10 people in them and no one gives a fuck about the election. But it's total pandemonium right now at Stevens Elementary. The lines to sign in--for for precinct--stretches all the way across the gymnasium. Lines to sign in for other precincts intersect with our line and no one is keeping order. Thank God for our neighbor: She commandeered a dozen sign-in sheet from the table and brought them to the end of the line so we could register our preferences and get the hell out. Here's hoping our sign-in sheets got back up to the precinct table: we didn't hang around long enough to find out.
Note to the Washington State Democrats: Please don't put us through that bullshit again. Don't waste our time. Let us vote in a primary. Yeah, yeah: The caucus system is supposed to build community, or something, since we're all supposed to gather together with our neighbors and talk about who we're supporting and why, and make appeals to the braindeads--excuse me, the undecideds--blah blah blah. But the only thing neighbors at Stevens are discussing right now is what a bullshit waste of time this is. You're going to need smaller precincts, and a lot more precinct sites, and a lot more workers, or you're going to need to go to a primary system."
.....
5:39 PM, Feb 09, 2008
The state dem party web site http://www.wa-democrats.org/caucusfinder today got swamped (and they had a lousy method to find your caucus location) so they redirected people to the Obama web site!!!
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/walookup
Granted his team allowed you to find your location in one step (the dems have always forced you to do two steps, find your precinct then go to their site t find your caucus location) and their wasn't any state office or effort by Hillary but it still didn't seem fair.
.......
http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/blogs/dailyweekly/2008/02/precinct_1494_caucus_gets_phys.php

Precinct 1494 Gets Physical
Posted today at 2:41 pm by Laura Onstot
We had 10 delegates up for grabs. Over 150 people showed up and immediately flocked to the Obama side, picking up seven of the spots on the first count. The handful of Clinton supporters rallied enough to pick up two, and a group of quiet, but firm independents gathered in the middle, leaving one delegate uncommitted. The sides were then each given some time to try to sway the 16 people sitting quietly on the middle folding chairs.
It quickly turned into yelling out favorite platform attacks like Obama's healthcare plan isn't universal, or Clinton's doesn't allow for options. They went back and forth on a couple of other standards—education, climate change—places where the candidates' differences are subtle, the undecideds all taking it in. Then a woman all in green next to me shouted out "the war!" A man in a gray tweed cap on the Hillary side retorted that Obama might have sung a different tune if he'd been voting in the Senate at the time. "No he wouldn't!" green leggings yelled back. Grey hat took a couple of steps toward her, finger pointing:"He didn't have to make that choice!" Green leggings suddenly rushed him, shoving him in the chest. "Did you see that?" he shrieked. "That was assault!" A couple of bystanders intervened and the combatants huffed back to their corners.
With all the other shouting at the undecideds the little altercation went largely unnoticed. Apparently aggression wasn't what they were responding to because at the end of it all, the delegate totals stayed the same.
I walked back with one of my neighbors, a man who originally hails from Japan. He thought it was all surprisingly exciting. "I guess that's how you do it in America," he said. I was about to disagree when it occurred to me that, regardless of intentions, maybe shoving people around until they get on board only to stomp off in disgust when we can't really is the American way. So all I said was: "apparently so."

[Froward69]

14. I was the

Caucus site Coordinator. I stressed to all 9 precincts at my site... 1)that we were all Democrats. 2) we were in an elementary school take care of it for the kids. 3) NO ONE was superior. 4)NO finger pointing! discuss, persuade if you can. I will toss you for being unruly! 5) DO NOT alienate other Democrats!
it went well. we all have our own opinion we are all entitled to it. respect each other. we were done by 9pm and became a stronger community.

[Warren Stupidity]

11. Why are primaries impractical in populous states?

New York, New Jersey, Massachussettes, Georgia, California all just had primaries and they appeared to be quite practical.

[frazzled]

19. My bad: I meant to write caucuses are impractical in populous states

I'll go change the thread header to reflect that. Sunday morning coffee deficit + too much attention to the crossword while posting.

On edit: too late to edit that post! The correction will have to stand here.

[Warren Stupidity]

20. Ah - that makes sense.

Always caffinate before posting.

[TygrBright]

4. Primaries are "democracy lite" and enable citizens to delude themselves...

...that they are participating in the governance of their nation. They also enable parties to be taken over by special interests like the DLC. Caucuses are the accountability, the checks & balances for party governance, when real people show up to have their say in the party platform, in the rules the party operates under, in the people who lead the party.

Yes, they are more work. Yes, you have to learn how to participate effectively. Yes, they require a greater investment of time than showing up to vote once every couple of years. Yes, they cost more and can be tricky logistically.

But I have successfully participated in caucuses in big cities, in rural areas, and in suburban communities. Where people stood up and had their say over what the party's policy should be on critical issues. Where they elected their party leaders. It's do-able. And if everyone did it, the party would be truly accountable to the party membership, not to the money and media.

EVERYONE CAN participate in their caucuses, IF they are willing to invest the time in learning how and doing it. But apparently, getting home to watch "Survivor" is a far higher priority to most Americans than the self-government of their Republic.

adamantly,
Bright

[muddrunner17]

6. What about the not viable's?

While I don't live in a caucus state, and I don't know all of the intricacies of it, it is distressing to see that any candidate who is deemed "not viable" loses that support. Then supporters of other candidates try to "persuade" them to vote for their candidate. In the end, many candidates lose votes because they are deemed not viable. Are those voters who support them not disenfranchised by that process? They ultimately don't get to vote for their candidate of choice.

[KellyW]

13. The elitist attitude is common

When we were debating using the primary or caucuses in the Washington State Democratic Central, the argument was made that if a person really cared, they would take time off to participate in the caucus.- An easy thing to say for a state committee member, who spends a couple of hundred dollars a year to go to meetings.

To the seriously poor, take time off and losing income is just not possible for them. And the fact that our party leadership don’t get that is appalling.

I talked to a bunch of nurses at a rally for one of the candidates on Friday, Not all of them were going to the caucuses. Every nurse in the hospital can’t take 4 hours off at the same time.

[never_get_over_it]

7. I'm beginning to worry about the caucus thing...

I have been struggling all week with WHY Obama is doing so much better in primaries than Clinton when this thing really is a tie

Leaving MI out because not every ones name was on the ballot:

There have been 20 primaries - and right now the count is 10 Clinton to 9 Obama and whatever with NM - A TIE

Primaries secret ballots

There have been 11 caucuses Obama has won 10 of them - WHY is it SO different in caucus states

Caucus no secret ballot and I think a lot of them you can register on the spot and be a Democrat for a day or a Repunk for a day

I think the fact that the vote is not secret - there is a HUGE bandwagon effect and peer pressure and I worry this might hurt us in November - where the ballot will be secret.

I think caucuses are messed up but actually I think this whole primary thing is messed up...

I just hope to God that if Obama IS the nominee that all these enthusiastic voters get the hell out and vote for him in November - BECAUSE we are going to need to win BIG to over come election fraud.

Actually the same is true for Clinton too -

my fear it is a LONG LONG LONG time until November - and I'm very worried about McCave

[Froward69]

16. 60 day cut off

"Caucus no secret ballot and I think a lot of them you can register on the spot and be a Democrat for a day or a Repunk for a day"

Colorado is one of only a few that has a 60 day cut off... that is you have to be a registered whatever to participate.
I think that eliminated any Rushing or tilting of the results.

[never_get_over_it]

18. Funny story

When I moved to FL I registered no affiliation because I was actually afraid that my vote wouldn't be counted if I registered as a Dem - so I went down to change to a Dem for the primary - thought the primary was actually in Feb but no it was January 29. I made the cut off by about 4 hours -

was the CO vote "public"

[high density]

8. I don't want to socialize

I want to vote for a presidential candidate and leave...

[UTUSN]

10. Excellent point. It's not about bonding. Even loners deserve a VOTE!1

(my) Re-post from another thread:

It's clear that very committed activists---a.k.a. "ZEALOTS"---show up at caucuses and skew the outcomes. It's bad enough that most eligible voters don't even actually vote.


Too bad about the source, but Pat BUCHANAN, whom I regard as a NAZI and a NIXON-bot, *correctly* has been repeating in his marathon appearances on MSRNC that McGOVERN *and* GOLDWATER all attracted a humongous following---------among their ACTIVISTS/ZEALOTS (my words), and ended up with the worst ever showings.


Add caucuses to the long list of our antiquated and deadwood political institutions that will sink us for clinging to them. Electoral college.



A tidbit from some history of the Catholic church said that they considered electing popes every four years but realized that there would be continual turmoil and perpetual electioneering and they settled on life tenure. Not that I'm advocating that, but we're deeply IN to that perpetual electioneering.


Mexico, for one, has a single term of six years...

[Warren Stupidity]

9. Primaries with verified paper ballots.

We need to work on an open transparent election process that increases voter participation and strengthens and standardizes election processes across the country. A caucus might be a great way to meet like minded people, but it does not encourage participation and election transparency.

[Party Line]

12. Secret ballots are essential for democracy,

caucuses suck.

[electron_blue]

15. If caucuses can be run a hell of a lot better than what I saw last week, then I'd

be willing to give them another try. I left unconvinced that my vote was counted, much less all the others would couldn't get in in time to vote bcs of the massive overcrowding.

[PatSeg]

17. I prefer primaries

I've heard too many negative stories about caucuses here and elsewhere. The idea of getting together with neighbors and discussing politics is great, but the actual voting should be private and people should have all day in which to vote.

[gateley]

21. I've heard the same point you make about it being a "bonding" experience -

which we'll need when we get to the GE.

My concerns are that it's exclusionary, due to the time constraints.

In a primary everyone who wants to have their say can.

[Kittycat]

22. I think it would be fun to caucus, but I prefer making my vote official

by way of primary.

I was kind of thinking today, it would be fun if they had something like that here in IL... We could all show up some Saturday night to caucus, then vote like usual on Tuesday. Might be a good opportunity to spur some thought and debate.