For those who think Foreign Car makers have a better product...guess again.

[Tyler Durden]

Now don't get me wrong...I think ALL cars made today are shit. But as someone who has been watching the US Auto industry circle the bowl trying to catch up from the "Foreign Cars are made of GOLD" myth and the US Consumers being told by their own egos that bigger is always better (when was the last time you saw a Saturn Coupe in one a Country Music Television or VH1 music video?) I have to protest here.

The US auto industry makes a product comparable with ANYTHING the Japanese, Koreans, or Germans (in the lower price range) makes. And if you want to argue, argue with this:


TOP AUTO RECALLS OF 2007

http://news.thomasnet.com/IMT/archives/2007/10/top_13_auto_recalls_safety_gmc_nissan_daimlerchrysler_volkswagen_suzuki_hyundai_toyota.html?t=recent

Starting with #10:

10. Nissan: Infiniti G35 Coupe
NHTSA Potential Affected Units: 23,934
Recall # 06V394000
Problem Summary: Certain vehicles fail to comply with the vertical gradient and headlamp photometric values requirements of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 108.

9. DaimlerChrysler: Chrysler Sebring/Chrysler 300/Dodge Caliber, Dodge Magnum, Dodge Charger, Dodge Nitro, Jeep Compass, Jeep Liberty, Jeep Commander, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Jeep Wrangler
NHTSA Potential Affected Units: 50,665
Recall # 06V493000 / 06V493000 / 06V493000 / 06V493000 / 06V493000 / 06V493000 / 06V493000 / 06V493000 / 06V493000 / 06V493000 / 06V493000
Problem Summary: On certain vehicles, the antilock-brake-system control module software may cause the rear brakes to lock up during certain braking conditions.

8. Volkswagen: Passat/Passat Wagon
Recall # 06V472000/ 06V470000
NHTSA Potential Affected Units: 58,800/57,291
Problem Summary: Certain passenger vehicles equipped with a 2.0-liter engine with 147kw may have a vacuum line that may fracture and become disconnected at low ambient temperatures. On certain sixth-generation passenger vehicles, the wiper motor may fail during heavy rain due to excessive moisture in the wiper motor.

7. Suzuki: Forenza/Reno
Recall # 07V315000 / 07V315000
NHTSA Potential Affected Units: 75,697
Problem Summary: On certain passenger vehicles, the front seat-belt tongue will not latch into the buckle and, in rare cases, the locked tongue will pop out under low stretching force. If the buckle doesn’t latch completely, the buckle could release without the release button being pressed.

6. DaimlerChrysler: Dodge Nitro/Jeep Wrangler
NHTSA Potential Affected Units: 80,894
Recall # 07V291000 / 07V291000
Problem Summary: On certain vehicles, the totally integrated power module was programmed with software that may allow the engine to stall under certain operating conditions.

5. Hyundai: Tucson
NHTSA Potential Affected Units: 128,300
Recall # 06V445000
Problem Summary: On certain sport-utility vehicles, static air-bag deployment testing conducted by the NHTSA indicated that if a small-stature adult driver, not wearing a seat belt, is involved in a frontal or near frontal crash, deployment of the driver air bag may result in an insufficient margin of compliance.

4. Nissan: Altima
NHTSA Potential Affected Units: 140,582
Recall # 07V267000
Problem Summary: On certain vehicles, if a sufficiently hot object enters the air filter housing through the engine fresh-air-intake system and comes into contact with the engine air filter, the air filter may ignite.

3. DaimlerChrysler: Jeep Liberty
NHTSA Potential Affected Units: 149,605
Recall # 07V089000
Problem Summary: On certain passenger vehicles equipped with Valeo heating, ventilation, and air conditioning, the blower motor may overheat.

2. Toyota: Sequoia
NHTSA Potential Affected Units: 533,124
Recall # 07V013000
Problem Summary: On certain trucks and minivans, due to possible improper finishing of the front suspension lower ball joint, some ball joints may experience an incidental deterioration of the internal lubrication. This may cause the ball joint to wear and loosen prematurely, which could result in increased steering effort, reduced vehicle self-centering, and noise in the front suspension.

1. Volkswagen: New Beetle
NHTSA Potential Affected Units: 1,002,000
Recall # 07V063000
Problem Summary: On certain passenger, wagon and convertible vehicles with or without cruise control, a brake light switch may malfunction if it was installed incorrectly.

In 2006, Toyota saw a departure from its usually quality-obsessed character — recalling nearly 1.5 million vehicles worldwide, spanning every single model line produced that year. The increased recalls, which seem to have begun in 2005, may be due to “the rapid expansion overseas and the pressure to reduce costs resulting in a supply chain that is overburdened and lacking in personnel,” explained Gemba Panta Rei in May.


<snip>

NOTE: in the "Top 10" there were 4 Japanese, 2 German, and a Korean. Daimler/Chrysler is arguably a German Owned company, for the purposes of these figures for 2007, so essentially how many US Owned Car Makers made the "Top 10" recalls, while while having to offset the Government subsidies and Universal Healthcare of their competitors?

NONE.

NOW go buy a Japanese car.

[EnviroBat]

1. Thanks, I will.

[Tyler Durden]

3. So give me a good reason...

And no anecdotal shit either. I can tell you horror stories about a Datsun 210, a Datsun 310, and a Subaru Legacy all owned by me whose engineering caused their demise.

[EnviroBat]

10. I'll give you 1 fucking good reason. A piece of shit Dodge Neon

almost got me killed. As the power-steering pulley sheared off of the pump shaft causing the steering to almost lock on an icy road sending me into a parked truck. The car, by the way, was totaled, and in the front end collision, the AIR BAG FAILED TO DEPLOY. There's your fucking reason! Beyond that, every American car I've had the misfortune of owning has been nothing more than a disposable, over-priced, over-plastic piece of crap. Oh, another little tid-bit for you, the Neon was 18mos old. The official recall on that vehicle? Throttle can lock open in cold weather. All cars are shit, but I'll take my chances with the new Honda I'm buying at the end of the month. Here's some stats for ya.

[Tyler Durden]

My Datsun 310 blew a non blowable CV joint on the FREEWAY....

SMASHED the crankcase draining ALL of the oil in less than 2 seconds, and was HEAVILY on FIRE before I could get it to the side of the road and run for my life. I think that tops your NEON.

EVERYONE has an anecdotal experience with a car. They ALL suck, and I have news for you: HONDA is creeping up in recalls. Every time you turn the key, remember an American Family who is going into foreclosure; no matter HOW you justify that, you helped it happen.

Beep beep.

[EnviroBat]

25. Bullshit...

Look at the "Stats" provided. I don't think I'll be flushing my money on a Ford or GM anytime soon. Maybe the American family boo hoo anecdotal experience you mention would be less frequent if they didn't have to blow all their extra cash on CAR REPAIRS.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[texastoast]

137. Maybe check out JD Powers this year n/t

http://www.jdpower.com/autos

[Tesha]

38. Hondas aren't still built in Marysville, OH?

> Every time you turn the key, remember an American Family who
> is going into foreclosure; no matter HOW you justify that,
> you helped it happen.

Hondas aren't still built in Marysville, OH?

Tesha

[EnviroBat]

40. Yep, a few miles from my neighborhood.

Thanks for the observation.

:hi:

[Romulox]

45. Nope. They are assembled there. nt

[Tesha]

62. By workers who commute daily from Tokyo, no doubt.

Sophistry is unbecoming.

Tesha

[Romulox]

66. No, but they ASSEMBLE parts originally manufactured in Japan

You call it "sophistry". I call it "factual information".

http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/12/epsmadeusa.htm

[Tesha]

75. And GM builds cars from parts manufactured in Mexico and Canada.

So what? Either way, those parts aren't built by UAW workers.

Tesha

[Romulox]

109. Why do I get the suspicion that you didn't read the FTC policy statement I linked to?

LOL

:think:

[1gobluedem]

120. UAW is very strong in Canada n/t

[Tesha]

149. Well, actually the CAW, but...

Well actually the CAW...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Auto_Workers

In 1984, the Canadian section of the UAW, under the leadership of Bob White and his assistants Buzz Hargrove and Bob Nickerson, broke from the UAW because the American union was seen as giving away too much in the way of concessions during collective bargaining. Additionally, the UAW had been lobbying the U.S. Congress to force the transfer of auto production from Canada to the U.S. and the Canadian branch felt there was a lack of a representative voice during UAW's conventions.

But a more interesting question might be "To which country's
workers do the wages go?"

Tesha

[reformedrethug]

163. Where in that link does it say that

Honda parts are manufactured in Japan?
the parts that go into the Honda's, Acura's, Motorcycles, AND the Honda Jet are mostly made in the states by local suppliers if not made at the plants themselves.

[Hippo_Tron]

160. Why should I care about an American family more than a Japanese family?

[tuckessee]

60. What year model was your 310? n/t

[Tyler Durden]

77. 1981.

Bought new off the lot in Feb. 1982. It committed suicide in Houston Texas, August 1985.

[high density]

133. No, "you" did not help it happen

The people who made it happen were the uppity ups that refused to design cars that were actually worth buying. I think nationalism is very low on the list for most people when it comes to things to look for when buying a car. If people perceive the Japanese or South Korean cars to be a better value, they're going to buy the foreign car.

[Tempest]

33. Apparently no one comes close to American car recalls

Quite a big disparity in recalls there. U.S. cars have more than twice the recalls.

Thanks.

[Tyler Durden]

37. If you go back 20 years, SURE.

If you check back 5, you'll see the Foreign cars are gaining. Look at my link above to THOMAS business reports: very detailed stuff if you have the time.

ENTROPY: over time, the Japanese have lost their "edge," and whether or not the rude guy believes it is immaterial.

[Tempest]

94. So in the short-term, U.S. cars look better

The fact is, over time non-U.S. made cars have fared better.

And considering I keep my vehicle for more than the short-term, long-term trends are more important than what's happening today.

[danalytical]

105. Gaining?

But what about overall for the last 5 years as a percentage of total volume? All signs point to "US cars".

[EnviroBat]

39. Thanks Tempest.

The truth is hard for some to swallow here...

[Threedifferentones]

115. Yes and if you buy a new car now

it really does not matter how well that company made cars 20 years ago, or one year ago for that matter. It only matters how they make them now, which is often influenced by past policy, but the OP seems to be arguing that Asian car makers' quality has gone down recently and significantly due to increased production/market share, and so NOW they are starting, I imagine, to suffer from many of the same problems that have harm these huge American corporations. The stats in the OP more or less prove that point has some validity, so I guess you are right about the truth, eh? :)

[Tesha]

41. The number of recalls doesn't tell you anything about reliability

The number of recalls doesn't tell you anything about the
reliability of a given marque. For example, take Lamborghini.
7 recalls, right? They must be enormously reliable!

No, they just don't sell enough models or units here in the
US to justify doing many recalls. Same for Porsche.

By comparison, Ford, Chrysler, and GM sell a zillion units
of many different models so they end up with a lot of
engineering defects that are "big enough" to attract the
attention of NHTSA and end up as a recall.

Still, having said that, I agree that Chrysler products
are junk. Our Caravan, similar to the Neon mentioned above,
exploded its diffential case and coasted to the side of
the road, a pool of hypoid oil trailing behind one of its
half-axles dragging on the ground. This is *NOT* a failure
one expects from a competently-designed car. You will
*NEVER* sell me another Chrysler product for as long
as I live.

Similarly, on our Taurus, the rear brake hoses passed
through mild-steel support brackets that completely
surrounded the hoses. Over time, the brackets corroded
and pinched the hoses shut. With the brake pedal, you
could apply enough force to force brake fluid into the
rear calipers, but the caliper strings weren't strong
enough to force the brake fluid back out again so you
ended up with the rear wheels locked up. All because a
$0.50 bracket was badly engineered. Oh,and this Taurus
ate two transmissions in its short life. So don't count
on selling me any more Ford products either.

Tesha

[EnviroBat]

168. OMG, I used to perform recall repairs on Ford Taurus's

I'm glad you survived owning one of those! We had a recall on them to replace subframe bolts that were rusting through and causing the engine and trans to suddenly drop from under the car when the driver would hit the brakes! This usually resulted in a spectacular crash as you can imagine.

[danalytical]

2. Chrysler is US

Chrysler split with Daimler, and is and has always been made in the US anyways.

Now to your larger point, one year of top ten recalls does nothing for an overall comparison. If we looked at ALL overall problems not just recall notices you would find that the Japanese companies are much better in the quality department. I think anyone who has owned enough cars can tell you that just from experience alone.

[Tyler Durden]

5. ANECDOTAL. Not statistics.

And Daimler RAPED Chrysler for cash while they owned it. And they didn't "split" from Chrysler, they SOLD it to a venture capital group with no manufacturing background like so much real estate.

If you go back over the Recalls for the last 10 years, you will see that the figures (except for a peak from GM in 2006) are pretty evenly split.

Cars are like Lego toys. Do you think that TOYOTA doesn't buy their components from the lowest bidder, just like everyone else? The TUNDRA beat the Ford F-150 in recalls.

Cars are Cars, and to say that one is better than the other, justifying the huge increase in cost for a foreign vehicle (remember that thanks to the US Government, you're paying for the Auto Worker's healthcare among other things, so the net vehicle cost is lower) is bunk. And to justify a purchase of a foreign vehicle (UNLESS there is NO COMPARABLE PRODUCT from a US Maker) simply makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution.

[danalytical]

13. You're wrong

There is absolutely no doubt that Toyota, Honda, and Subaru are far superior in reliability. It's unquestionable. Do some basic research from the past 10 years. Mazda, Nissan, and Mitsubishi are much less reliable. They are more on par with American cars. I bought into the "US cars are just as reliable myth" a few years back. in 2001 I got a 99 Olds Alero, it was one of the worst cars I ever owned. It had more problems than a 1988 Honda Accord I bought in 1998. Now, I know that's anecdotal, but Consumer Reports statistics sure as hell back me up. Maybe US cars are getting better, but last time I heard that I got burned. Do yourself a favor and pick up your latest CR.

[krispos42]

93. When you buy a used car, especially one ten years old...

you've already winnowed out all the weaklings. Something to remember. You don't mention if the Olds was new or used.

My beater Olds is 19, and has it's share of interior problems. Headliner sags, power windows barely work, cruise control won't work in above-freezing temps, steering column is loose, one door mechanism won't unlock, bright-beam switch broke, driver's door interior panel (the part with all the switches and stuff) broke off and is currently being held on with sheetmetal patches, pop rivets, duct tape, and a large wood screw, the power locks are sticky, and most of the interior lighting doesn't work because a leaky windshield rotted out some of the wiring.

However, mechanically it's solid as a rock. 180,000 miles, everything in the engine bay is original except the fan belt and battery. Starts right up, gets in the low 20's for mileage, plenty of power, and the tranny's smooth as silk. It has a slight leak somewhere in the cooling system, so I have to top off the antifreeze once in a while.

I had to put on a new wheel bearing once.

I got this car used three years ago for a buck.

[Angela Shelley]

4. It would be interesting to know the comparison in percentages,

meaning the ratio of "number of vehicles sold" to "number of vehicles recalled".

[Tyler Durden]

7. I can try to find them later....but I have to work SOMETIME!!

I will say that the THREE recalls on my wife's 2000 Toyota Sienna sure beat the ZERO recalls on my 1997 Saturn SL1.

As I say, Cars are Cars, and to say that Foreign middle and low range cars are better than US made is like saying that Blue Bunny ice cream beats Bryer's. NEITHER is Ben and Jerry's, and like Ben and Jerry's most of us can't afford large amounts of it.

[tridim]

6. I'm a Honda guy.

And I will be until someone makes a more reliable car.

Oh, and I also have a 78 Fiat Spider, IMO the most underrated car in automotive history.

[Tyler Durden]

11. The only thing I've put on my 1997 Saturn SL1 in almost 150,000 miles is a muffler.

Beat that.

And not many of us can drive a fast 2 seater. Personally, in that market I'll take a 914-S.

[tridim]

18. I always wanted a 914/6..

But I realized about 15 years ago that there aren't any left to buy, or at least any left that I can afford.

BTW, Fiats aren't fast they're just cool. :)

[Tyler Durden]

26. Dad wanted an MG.

That was the "cool" of his generation.

You can get 914's by the bushel in Muscle Shoals Alabama, or at least you use to.

They were doing a cottage industry in re-furbing 914's to showroom condition. I had a friend who picked up an "S" for about 8 thou 5-6 years ago.

[LeftyMom]

158. Other than brakes, tires and oil, my '97 SW1 has needed: an alternator, a serpentine belt tensioner,

and a battery. Oh, and replacement headlamps, I'd better throw that in, that was a whole $8.

Not bad for 160,000 miles on an eleven year old car. Especially considering I bought it five years ago, at 104K, for $2400.

[Warpy]

8. My Ford Ranger was a TANK

It was solidly built to the point of being ridiculous. Few things started to go wrong until the poor thing was old enough to vote, and still there were a lot of miles left on the engine and standard transmission. I traded it in and got something for it.

I tested a bunch of little cars and found that all the big automakers make perfectly serviceable and comfortable small cars. I ended up with a Korean econobox because of the configuration of cargo room. The Scion actually had more room, but it wasn't in the right places for my needs.

My econobox got a little over 40 MPG on my only long trip; the Ford Ranger did about 30. The econobox went up La Bajada (engine slayer hill) in top gear; the Ranger could barely crawl up in second. Both got me there, though.

The major problem with the small, efficient cars being produced by the big 3 isn't that they're bad cars, cheaply made, inefficient, or nor durable. The problem is that the big 3 are still pushing their macho machines at pinheads with small dicks to the point that nobody realizes they're making such good small cars. People who are ready and able to downsize need to check them out.

Thanks for helping get the word out. The jobs your post might save today will be your own tomorrow.

[Thothmes]

161. I liked my 84 Ranger

Kept it until 2006. Only non maintenance work was to replace one water pump and at 197,000 miles had to replace the clutch. Parted company when she hit 249,000 miles.

[devilgrrl]

9. Awesome, Mazda isn't on the list

:-)

[flvegan]

57. I'm on my second Mazda myself.

Great cars (knocks wood).

[wuushew]

129. My sister's 1998 626 is a POS

not really Mazda's fault though since that generation of 626 was just a rebranded Ford Contour.

[Kokonoe]

12. I didn't know foreign companies had auto recalls

I thought they called them FREE oil change & service. :shrug:

[Tyler Durden]

15. Cute.

That was funny, but if it weren't such a serious issue, I'd be more amused.

The US Auto Industry used to account for more than 35% of GDP. That should scare the SHIT out of everyone here. Not very funny either.

[Romulox]

14. People won't buy US cars, no matter how dependable they are.

People buy Japanese cars for reasons of fashion, and because they loathe US workers.

Truth.

[wuushew]

19. Even if their "foreign" car is built or assembled in the United States?

:shrug:

[Romulox]

24. A * S * S * E * M * B * L * E * D nt

[wuushew]

28. I don't fully appreciate the hair splitting

Both generate useful economoic acitivity within the borders of this country.

Screw GM, they still need to pay for their sin of destroying inter-urban transport in the 1950s. If people believe in the concept of karma then why not corporate karma?

[Tyler Durden]

34. You don't get it.

The Corporate Magnates will never suffer for their "sins." Only the workers, and if you WANT the next form of social/economic revolt, then keep on keepin' on with the "karma."

Some past sins will never be paid for. They also destroyed the electric buses in DETROIT of all places, but we won't get them back by breaking the back of the American Worker.

[Romulox]

35. You call it "hair splitting", I call it "vocabulary"

In this case, "Made in the USA" has a legally defined meaning of "all or virtually all US content" (by dollar value.)

By negative inference, you can probably figure out that a vehicle that is "assembled" in the US does not contain all or virtually all US content.

Therefore you can deduce while "assembling" and "making" products in the US both generate economic activity, the former generates a great deal less than the latter.

"Screw GM, they still need to pay for their sin of destroying inter-urban transport in the 1950s."

But I thought it was all about "quality"! :rofl: Did you know that both Mercedes Benz and BMW made gas chambers for the Nazis?

[wuushew]

46. When did I say it was solely about quality?

you are attributing things to me I did not type. Also I don't expect to have a rational discussion on this topic with someone who has a Michigan avatar in their posts.

This country needs to become more like Japan, not less. We can start by buying a common automotive brand.

[Romulox]

47. Edit: dupe

:eyes:

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wuushew]

55. dupe

[wuushew]

56. Whatever....

Amerika uber alles, rah rah rah

[Tyler Durden]

63. Careful.

If you're in a thirsty state, you might need a little Michigan Good Will.

Nobody pissed on where you live, and times are very hard here, thanks in part to people buying foreign.

[danalytical]

23. No that's not true

People buy Japanese cars because they bought American cars that fell apart as they drove down the road. Like the 3 blown intake manifold gaskets on the first 75,000 miles of the GM 60 degree 3.4L engine I owned. Or perhaps the consistently warping brake rotors that were made out of substandard steel. Maybe the interiors that fall on your head or fall off the door panels.. Perhaps it was the seat bolster falling off the steel holder inside the seat that gives you years of resting on a piece of steel. Maybe it was the first three speeds of the heating and cooling fan that stopped working twice. It also could be the constantly leaking air in the tires of poorly made rims that don't seal with the tires. Or it could have been the back speakers suddenly not working any longer. Maybe it was the trunk interior snapping off, or was it that creaky sound that never seemed to go away in the back of the car.

I could go on. That was ONE car.

[Romulox]

32. The statistical analyses of comparitive vehicle quality simply do not bear you out...

I might as well cite the time the proud owner of a brand-spanking New Beatle told me she chose the car, "because American cars are junk!" as an anecdotal evidence of the lack of product research abilities of import drivers... :rofl:

[Tyler Durden]

44. Or the FOUR head gaskets that blew on my Subaru Legacy....

At 55, 60, and 80 thousand miles. The warranty of course expired at 50.

If you put up with all of that with one car, (If you bought it new) then you must not have been able to afford a lawyer, and you have my sympathies.

Ford replaced a trans in my Mother's USED minivan at 40,000 miles, even though it was obviously the first owner's fault.

By the way...

The following items weren't made by GM:

Brake Rotors
Gaskets
Seats
Tire rims
Speakers
Interior trim

All of those except the seats and trim were made in....

JAPAN AND KOREA!!!

[danalytical]

100. Bought it with 27,000 miles

Warranty ended at 30,000. Thing is this wasn't specific to my car, it was the case with many GM cars from that time period. This one happened to be a 99 Old Alero, but as you well know GM uses the same parts across many of it's cars. So the engine troubles were a part of every single GM car with the 3.4L. It was a design flaw. The rotors were put on most of it's cars. The interior quality has ALWAYS been a factor in American cars. Chrysler one ups GM and Ford with interior, but that's not saying much seeing as they have MASSIVE transmission and AC problems.

[reformedrethug]

164. Then what does that

say about GM's quality control procedures and standards if they let substandard parts into the system?

[TommyO]

29. I've owned both German and American cars

and have driven Japanese models. All of them were good cars, except for the VW Passat which was a good car until the timing belt broke and caused a fair amount of valve damage. My current drive is a 2005 Chevy Malibu, it's not exciting, but the V6 has plenty of power and reasonable highway fuel economy. I wouldn't hesitate to buy the newer model Malibu, or the Saturn Aura, it's near-twin.

[tridim]

36. I rented a Malibu for a road trip last year.

It was the most basic and boring car I've ever driven. I couldn't wait to return it. Ugh!!

That's really my only beef with Chevy and other American car companies, they make boring and non-innovative cars as a rule. Why?

[Romulox]

43. The Toyota Camry is the #1 seller. It's not boring??? nt

[tridim]

52. Terribly boring, but at least they're reliable and hold their value. nt

[Romulox]

You've just moved the goal-posts!

I suspect it is mostly about "what the neighbors will think!" than anything.

[tridim]

68. Hehe, well no.

I have a Honda Civic and a Fiat and couldn't care less what others think.

My Honda isn't fancy, but it is a bit sporty looking. It also gets about 41mpg. A perfect blend of aesthetics, quality and economy. There are currently no American cars for sale that come close.

My Fiat is (was) just for fun. I'm selling it this spring to buy a scooter.

[TommyO]

124. The Malibu boring?

Of course it is, but it was also damned affordable (two year old off lease), has plenty of features in the LT model that I got, and with the six cylinder engine it keeps up with the rest of the mid-sized sedans from the same era.

The newer Saturn Aura and the 2008 Malibu are significantly better automobiles than the 2005 Malibu that I have, but I've found nothing about mine that was a show-stopper.

[tridim]

127. Guess it's just not my style.

Like typical Oldsmo-Buicks weren't my style back in the 70's and 80's.

[JCMach1]

155. Not true, they just don't sell them in U.S.

Prime Evidence... the awesome car you will never enjoy (Ford Mondeo)

[tabasco]

73. One of the stupidest things I've ever read.

Americans loathe American workers?

I loathe idiots that post stupid shit like that.

You blame the customers for a failing business when the truth is a business goes under because of BAD MANAGEMENT.

[Romulox]

112. "Free trade", Outsourcing, H1Bs, "guest workers", day labor, broken unions...

Yep. Americans loathe American workers.

[leftofthedial]

16. I don't know about today's cars.

I could no more buy a new car than I could buy the Hope Diamond.

But my 1993 Saturn wagon with 170,000 miles on it STILL kicks ass.

[Kermitt Gribble]

17. I'll go by reliability over recalls.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17385761/

[Tempest]

20. My own personal experience says U.S. cars are crap

In my household we've owned two Dodges, two Chryslers, three Fords, two Mazdas and one Nissan.

I kept meticulous records on all the vehicles and the cost of maintaining the Dodges, Chryslers and Fords has been more than 7X the maintanance costs of the Mazdas and Nissan.

One Dodge, both Chryslers and two of the Fords needed major engine repairs before 90,000 miles. Instead of forking out the money, I sold them for parts and bought the two Mazdas. I traded in the two Mazdas with more than 125,000 miles each for the Nissan. The Nissan has more than 40,000 miles without nothing more than a regular oil change.

[knitter4democracy]

89. Mazda's practically Ford.

At one point, Ford owned 51% of Mazda's stock. There's a lot of sharing between the two companies.

[Tempest]

92. Not when I owned them

They were 100% Japanese owned at the time.

[knitter4democracy]

97. My brother used to work for Ford.

Back in 1990, I got an '89 Mercury Tracer. It was basically the Mazda 323 with a Mercury logo on it. My brother told me about the Ford and Mazda partnership then and about the stock stuff.

[IndianaJones]

21. I'll drive anything but a Chrysler/Dodge. nt.

[Beausoleil]

22. Raw number of recalls doesn't mean much

There are recalls for safety, design/engineering defects and cosmetic defects. I don't recall hearing much about foreign cars' gas tanks blowing up as has happened to Ford and GM.
I think customer satisfaction is the bottom line. I can understand your point, but in truth, I have only owned one American vehicle in the last 30 years, though I believe I have owned Toyotas made in the US.
The main problem I have had with American vehicles, beyond reliability is piss-poor design. Just because you want to do something differently from the Japanese doesn't mean you need to make your customers perform contortions just to drive. I think American-designed vehicle are becoming more ergonomic, but this has not always been the case.

[supernova]

27. Notice what's not on the list

Honda and Subaru,

For GM, Buick and still does well in quality.

And Daimler Chrysler is now a "foreign" company? Since when? Chrysler was crappy before Daimler-Benz bought it; it's still crappy now and Daimler is http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18695361/">looking to sell .

Look, I would love to buy an American car that is:

Smaller. It's not just an energy efficiency issue. I really don't want a larger car. I am a small adult and larger cars tend to be disproportionate on the inside for folks like me. The controls are too far apart, the seat is too low to see over the dashboard :P The mirrors don't adjust properly. This is typical of American-made cars. I should know; I've sat in enough of them.

Safe. I don't want to pay extra for things like air bags and better impact-absorbing materials that should be standard.

Built to last. I don't want to visit the showroom every other month for some irritating problem that no one can find or can't solve. I want to do routine maintenance the first 100,000 miles.


All of the above is why I wound up buying a 2002 Honda CR-V last year. I expect to be able to keep it for the next 10 years at least.

[A HERETIC I AM]

79. That story you linked is from May of 2007.

Daimler sold the Chrysler brand to Cerberus, and as the story relates, the deal closed in the 3rd quarter of last year.

[supernova]

84. True, but my point still applies

Chrysler was/is an albatross that Daimler-Benz dropped at the first opportunity.

I honestly don't know how Chrysler keeps functioning. It certainly isn't on the reputation of its products.

[MadHound]

42. Sorry, but despite your little list,

Foreign automobiles has been shown to be vastly superior in terms of dependability, longevity and energy savings for the past thirty years. In addition, foreign autos have shown themselves to be more innovative over that period of time also.

When American autos start measuring up in these categories, I'll start buying them again. But until they do, I will stick with Honda and Toyota. I need dependable, long lasting transportation, I don't have the money to be spending on repairs or a new car all the time, thus I get the most value from my money that I can. When American autos show that they can deliver that value, then I will buy one, until then, oh well.

[supernova]

49. Don't think I will ever go to a dealer again

for a new model year car.

When my Honda finally bites the dust, I will again buy 2nd hand a car that is a few years old, has low milage and has proved reliability. The first owner has already eaten up the "new" cost and I can pay the real value for the car.

[MadHound]

58. Considering that I tend to run a car into the ground,

I get my full value out of it. I have a ten year old Nissan PU that's still going strong, as is our ten year old Honda that's going to crack the 200,0000 mile mark. But the one that really keeps on going is our twenty one year old Toyota Camry with 500,000 plus on it. Only thing other than regular maintence and a couple of mufflers is that we had to replace the timing belt. She's in semi-retirement right now, but we pull her out for regular work in the winter because she's a great car in the snow.

[reformedrethug]

165. My wife had a 89 Accord

that had 320K on it when she hit a deer and totaled the car. All she had done to it was regular maintenance ie: oil changes, timing belt/water pump replacement, etc... NOTHING outside of normal maintenance and upkeep. No major engine failure, no transmission failures, zero.

[Tyler Durden]

51. 300,000 care free miles on 2 Saturns.

The 210, 310, and Legacy never even made it to 100,000.

How's that for anecdotal?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. Very anecdotal.

Why is it that the best used cars year after year are always imports?

[Tyler Durden]

65. INCREDIBLY anecdotal.

That's Ok. We'll just keep our water.

Thirsty?

[MadHound]

64. 500,000 miles on a twenty one year old Toyota Camry

200,000 miles each on a ten year old Nissan and ten year old Honda. None of them have ever needed major work.

Anecdotal evidence cuts both ways, but when you actually start looking at all the numbers, foreign cars have a far better track record.

[Tyler Durden]

74. 325,000 miles on a Ford Escort.

Gave it to my kid who took almost another 75,000 to kill it.

If you look at the numbers since the "90's Boom" then you're right...but that skews them. Since then, Foreign has gone down and Domestic has gone up, especially in the last 5 years.

[MadHound]

76. Heh, my wife had a Ford Escort at one time,

Given to her by her folks. It caught fire one day and damn near killed her. She won't touch a Ford ever since.

Got any links on those numbers of yours?

[Tyler Durden]

82. Try Thomasnet

http://news.thomasnet.com/IMT/archives/2007/10/top_13_auto_recalls_safety_gmc_nissan_daimlerchrysler_volkswagen_suzuki_hyundai_toyota.html?t=recent

That's the top 10 for 2007, but they have great National Highway Safety etc. links.

[JCMach1]

156. You obviously haven't been paying attention... GM and Ford

have caught-up and manufacturing cracks are showing in brands such as BMW, VW, and even Toyota.

Having said that, I own a Hyundai... For me, it was about the quality/pricing balance. However, with the tumble the dollar has taken, American cars are even more competitive price-wise. Buying today, I would buy either a Modeo, or a Ford Explorer.

[flvegan]

50. The data I've read disagrees.

Consumer Reports (the best source I could find at the time) took information on 248 models (1.3 million cars) from 2001-2006 model years.

Looking at the mag now, here are the automakers (I won't go into models) that consistently ranked the most reliable across their model lines:

Acura
Buick (most of theirs were excellent)
Chevy (truck division only)
Ford (truck division only)
Honda
Hyundai
Infiniti
Lexus
Mazda
Mercury
Nissan (though the Armada and Quest ranked very poorly)
Scion
Subaru
Toyota

I will say this in defense of the US automakers: you're getting much better. It appears that since '04, the report shows that your cars are much improved, though I'm sure some will argue that they just aren't old/driven enough yet to turn to crap.

[Romulox]

54. Link? Subaru is known to have one of the worst quality records of all major brands.

Moreover, Mazda is one of the mid-tier brands in quality, at best.

Finally, Mercury is simply a rebadged Ford. If the study showed Mercury to have higher quality than Ford, then it is likely flawed.

[flvegan]

69. Best I can give you

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/used-cars/cr-recommended/the-best-worst-used-cars-406/overview/index.htm

You have to subscribe to see the individual model breakdowns by year. I pulled that info from the April 07 issue (they have an annual best/worst cars issue) right next to me.

I fail to see how it would be flawed, as it's based on consumer experience and feedback.

As they've been doing this a fairly long time and accept no advertising, I'm going to give them the edge based on experience.

[Romulox]

72. I am CR subscriber (have been for years) , thanks, but I take their info. with a grain of salt...

"I fail to see how it would be flawed, as it's based on consumer experience and feedback."

You've answered your own question. You're talking about the subjective experience of owners, rather the objective incidence of defects or faults. When this information doesn't jive with more objective studies of the same subject, then it raises red flags.

[flvegan]

80. Show me a database of every car repair done since 2000.

Every make, model and incident, and I'll need it from an independent source.

Like I said in my original post (at least I think I did) it's the best data I had and could come up with, short of the experience and word of mouth from people I know and trust.

[Tyler Durden]

61. I never really did "Consumer Reports."

Not really sure; I did buy a couple of things they recommended, but was disappointed. Large ticket.

30 years off and on in the auto supply industry, watching the Foreigners source/build in the same places and from the same people that the US guys do, plus watching the recalls continue to even out has made me look for a damned good reason to buy foreign, and I don't have one.

Whaling alone might be a good one not to, but that's just me.

Do remember that "Consumer Reports" largely relies on the same anecdotal evidence of "How much do you like your car?" sort of questions. Not really solid EMPIRICAL evidence.

[flvegan]

78. That's why

I refused to buy my car brand new (whaling). For me personally, there isn't an American car that fit my specific needs and my selfish wants. I considered another Mustang, but you can't haul dogs and crates in a Mustang.

When I was younger I hated Consumer Reports, tbh. They always seemed to favor the Japenese cars. As a Mustang and Corvette owner/lover, I was certain that they were biased. 20 years of driving what must be 20 different cars, my experience closely mirrors what they state.

One trend I am seeing, is that as cars get more advanced, the American cars are getting much better, and the Japanese cars have lost a step. Both Toyota and Nissan have had a lot of problems lately.

Lastly, if I had the money, I'd have a new Corvette and a Tahoe, so ultimately I'd really like to be an American car owner again some day.

[jakefrep]

148. I don't read CR for cars

When I've read their reviews of the cars I've owned, I got the distinct impression that they didn't actually drive the vehicle.

[karlrschneider]

59. Recalls are not an indication of poor quality, they reflect consumer protection.

:eyes:

[Tyler Durden]

70. THANK YOU.

I love the guys that say "My wheel fell off my XYZ so I'll NEVER buy one of their products again!"

And most recalls are for door locks, window cranks, and other really DANGEROUS issues. The bad ones get the press, and the Foreign cars with the bad ones get the breaks.

I guess if I spent twice what a comparable US car went for, I'd defend my Japanese car to the death rather than admit I'd made even the slightest error in judgment.

If you're held hostage by a foreign car, is that still the "Stockholm Syndrome?"

[karlrschneider]

86. I really don't get what you're saying there. I still drive my 1983 Toyota pickup

with about 238000 miles and never had a serious problem. Sure, replaced water pumps, alternators and that kind of stuff but I expect that...and I do all my own maintenance. I don't blame workers for shitty American cars, they didn't design them. Kind of like how US soldiers in Iraq didn't start the fuckin' war. edit: NOT war, occupation...

[JBoy]

67. Two rational & real reasons to not buy North American

and two of the biggest criteria for me in selecting a car:

1. Owner Satisfaction.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/03/japanese-makes-dominate-consumer-reports-car-owner-satisfaction/

Consumer Reports released its Car Owner Satisfaction Survey results and brands hailing from the Land of the Rising Sun accounted for nearly half of the winners. Toyota took 10 of the top 39 spots, including the Prius, where nine-out-of-ten owners said they'd buy it again given the chance. U.S. automakers didn't fare as well, only taking seven spots, but the addition of the V6-powered Ford Fusion and Saturn Aura proved that Detroit is making inroads in the family car segment. Despite many domestic models getting tagged "least satisfying" there's been a significant up tick in the U.S. automaker's standings.

2. Depreciation.

https://www.alg.com/depratings

The site rates (on a 1 to 5-star basis) 2006 vehicles based on the total depreciation over the lifetime of ownership. No Hondas or Toyotas below a "3".

[Tyler Durden]

83. Well....

1. Owner Satisfaction. Can't get any more subjective than that. If you went by me, you would avoid Toyota and Subaru like the plague; my experiences with product and service was extremely negative.

2. Depreciation. Anyone who buys a product with the intent of trading it in is buying it for the wrong reasons, and "3" ain't "5".

[JBoy]

87. Nice try

You blow off the owner satisfaction survey as being "subjective" but then trot out your own personal experience. Fine, I expect you to consider your own personal experience, I do too. I won't be going back to the same dealer I did last time, because the sales guy was a dick.

And anyone who doesn't factor in the residual value of a vehicle is a fool. Maybe you're used to having a worthless car when you're done, but I'm not.

[Tempest]

99. Apparently trade-in value isn't important to him

I wish I could be so cavalier about a major purchase like a vehicle.

I can picture it now:

Car Dealer: "We'll give you $1,000 trade-in value on your car."

Tyler: "That's okay, you can have it."

[ProfessorGAC]

167. Huh?

If one buys a new car and intends to keep it until 250,000 miles (like my wife and i do), the trade in value at said time is an irrelevant issue.

Nothing holds value worth a darn after 15 years and 250,000 miles.
The Professor

[danalytical]

101. Satisfaction is an indication of worth

Meaning, "was it worth it". When asking domestic car owners the answer is more often no. That is because of many reasons, but the biggest is maintenance and repairs. You can dig into the data and find that. I know you have an axe to grind, but you have to accept reality at some point. I used to be the same way, then over the years I got sick of shitty cars and bought a Toyota. I have NEVER had one problem with my Toyota. Not ONE.

[tabasco]

71. I had two recalls on my Toyota Echo, both optional.

First recall was to rustproof the car better in a problem spot.

Second was to install better child seat restraints.

The "number of recalls" statistic is a smokescreen for those too dumb to see through it. I've never heard of a US car being recalled for rustproofing.

They did both at the same time and gave me a loaner car. The dealer treated me like royalty even though I bought the car used.

OTOH, I remember when my Ford Ranger broke down the day I bought it. I sat on a curb waiting for a taxi because the Ford dealer had "no loaners available."

People buy what works. Your fantasy post doesn't change the collective wisdom of millions of people.

I don't think my Echo is "shit." It was dirt cheap, gets great mileage, and I have had zero problems with it. I even pull a utility trailer with it, up to 1500 pounds.

[Tyler Durden]

85. Baby that trans.

That towing is not exactly kosher for that vehicle.

Judging on DEALERS, I would have burned down the Toyota or Subaru dealers I worked with. Total pigs, but they were in Texas.

[tabasco]

117. Thanks for the advice.

The same car, same engine (1.5L) is recommended for towing 1000kg in Europe, but in the US, it is not recommended for towing. Go figure. :shrug:

I have a manual trans and take it easy and change the fluid more than normal. Never pull over 1000#.

[taught_me_patience]

81. why do American cars have

such shitty resale values? Oh yeah, it's because recalls have almost nothing to do with reliability.

[knitter4democracy]

88. I luuuuurrrrve my Ford Freestyle.

Best car I've ever owned. It's got the CVT transmission (it's a 2005--the new ones don't have it for some stupid reason), all-wheel drive, decent mileage, and a third row backseat for when I need to take along one of the kids' friends or my mom and her dad. It handles beautifully, and even my hubby's jealous of my kick-ass car. Ford really made this one right, and I love it. It's way better than my old Subaru.

My brother used to work in R&D at Ford. We tend to buy Fords in our family. I got the Subaru thinking it would handle better and last longer than anything Ford offered at the time. Then the tranny went, it got crappy mileage, and it just plain wasn't comfortable. My Freestyle kicks that car's ass.

[danalytical]

102. What kind of climate do you live in?

Subarus are treasured in cold climates because of their rugged reliability. I owned a 1982 Subaru GL for my 2nd car, in 1997. The car was rusted out ,but it was like a tank in the snow.

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. No Hondas, no Scions.

So I'm good.

[WA98296]

91. We get 48-52 MPG REGULARLY in our Prius. What US car competes with that?

Not one. They CHOOSE not to.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

95. I love old foreign cars

I have a 1973 Saab 96, a 1969 Citroen DS21, and a 1957 DKW F93. They require regular maintenance and attention on little things, but they are generally very reliable and don't break down. They are simple in design (except for the Citroen's hydraulics). With their small and efficient engines, they give me great mileage, especially the three-cylinder DKW. And best of all, I can work on all three, whereas I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to modern cars, with the forests of vaccuum tubes and computer chips under the hood. I previously had a Ford Taurus that went through three engines in five years. I owned a Honda Accord that I bought new that had the engine catch fire four years later. My father owned an Oldsmobile diesel that went through three diesel engines in six years. My old foreign cars, Citroen-Saab-DKW, are still going strong and I pamper them.

[defendandprotect]

96. On MPG . . . the Detroit is being run by the oil industry . . . !!!!

[LSK]

98. in this free market global economy there are no foreign car companies

This debate would have been relevant 15 years ago. Today it is not.

[1gobluedem]

123. Really?

Hop over to Tokyo and tell me how many American brands you see on the road there.

There is a massive trade imbalance with Asia. They flood our markets with their cars, their markets are closed to ours.

[LSK]

136. and that is our fault

Where is our trade tariffs? All gone thanks to Reagan,Bush,Clinton,Bush. So GM, Ford, Chrysler make cars in other countries and here and Japanese companies make cars here and overseas.

Please tell me how GM is an American company when it makes its all American sports car the Camero in Canada and the GTO is made in Australia?

BTW I drive a Jeep that is assembled about 50 miles from me but has a Japanese CVT transmission.

[gollygee]

103. My Toyota was made in Indiana

it's not that simple to call one car "American" and another one "foreign" anymore.

[danalytical]

104. No it wasn't

It was assembled by American workers, but it was built in Japan.

[gollygee]

106. Assembled by American workers and made of mainly American-made parts

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0707&referer=&aff=national

[Romulox]

107. Which makes Subaru's claims that its Indiana facility is "green" borderline fraudulent

If they do all the casting, metal work, rubber, etc. overseas and then bolt it all together in Indiana, it is very close to actionable deception to claim that the Subaru is produced as part of an environmentally friendly process simply because the Indiana assembly plant is not where the toxic pollutants are generated...

[danalytical]

111. Yipper

That's about dead on.

[A HERETIC I AM]

108. Every single part was "Built" in Japan?

Your parsing of those two words is specious.


Main Entry: 1build
Pronunciation: \ˈbild\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): built \ˈbilt\; build·ing
Etymology: Middle English bilden, from Old English byldan; akin to Old English būan to dwell — more at bower
Date: before 12th century
transitive verb
1: to form by ordering and uniting materials by gradual means into a composite whole : construct
2: to cause to be constructed
3: to develop according to a systematic plan, by a definite process, or on a particular base
4: increase, enlarge
intransitive verb
1: to engage in building
2 a: to progress toward a peak (as of intensity) <build to a climax> b: to develop in extent <a crowd building>


Main Entry: as·sem·ble
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈsem-bəl\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): as·sem·bled; as·sem·bling \-b(ə-)liŋ\
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French assembler, from Vulgar Latin *assimulare, from Latin ad- + simul together — more at same
Date: 13th century
transitive verb
1 : to bring together (as in a particular place or for a particular purpose)
2 : to fit together the parts of



http://www.merriam-webster.com/

[danalytical]

110. Oh please

Specious my ass. You KNOW the difference. A car is made of many parts, the parts were made in Japan as well as other places around the world, and they were shipped to the US as whole parts and then the parts were assembled together in the US plant. That's not even beginning to touch the question of ENGINEERING. Who designed the car and where was it designed? Where do the profits go?

[A HERETIC I AM]

116. I beg your pardon.

I had no idea that you were privy to the details of the supply chain of the Toyota Motor Company.

Yeah, I DO KNOW the difference. I worked in and around the North American Automobile industry for 20 years. If a car is assembled here it is BUILT here. What the fuck more do you want? You ARE parsing words at that point, nothing more. Where the various PARTS are fabricated is another issue.

There are hundreds of small companies all over this country that make parts for automobiles made everywhere that they ship all over the world - likewise India, Maylasia, China, Taiwan, Brazil, etc. So the fuck what?

It has been inferred upthread that Japanese car building is all done "in-house". From what I understand of their business model, NOTHING could be further from the truth. They use mom & pop type shops too, and most of those folks are not wearing clean, sharply pressed Nissan or Toyota issued coveralls, either. There has NEVER been an automobile that was assembled from parts that were 100% made by the company whose name badged the front of the vehicle. Ever. The closest was perhaps the Ford Model "A" built at the River Rouge facility. That facility had shops for everything, from their own steel mill, a glass plant, foundry and even included a leather tannery for seat covers. If I am not mistaken, the only part that the Ford Motor Company did not directly manufacture themselves were the tires, and Henry got those from his buddy Harvey Firestone.

And for the record, I tend to agree with the point made by the op in general, but I do drive a Honda Accord - that was MADE/BUILT/ASSEMBLED (which ever word you want to use) in Marysville, Ohio. It is my first Honda ever. I've owned strictly GM cars for the previous 17 years.

[danalytical]

118. Yeah OK, excuse you

I excuse you for your ignorance. Assembling parts manufactured and engineered somewhere else is NOT the same as manufacturing and engineering them here. I am a FAN of Toyota and Honda, I OWN a Toyota. But I also am not buying into this fairytale that a Toyota is American made. It's not. Toyota knows it's cheaper to ship parts than to ship whole cars. It's a simple business decision.

[gollygee]

125. It isn't a fairy tale

Several Toyotas are American-made. The parts are made here. The assembly is here. American auto workers have the jobs. Not all cars by American companies are even assembled in the US, nor are all the parts made here.

Also, I have a friend who works as an engineer for a Japanese-owned auto parts manufacturing company in Battle Creek, Michigan. This company is Japanese and makes and engineers auto parts in Battle Creek for cars made by both foreign and domestic-owned companies.

It is much more complicated that who owns the business. I'm much more concerned about American workers getting jobs than American corporate CEOs making more money.

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0707&referer=&aff=national

The Cars.com American-Made Index
By Kelsey Mays, Cars.com
What Are the Top American-Made Cars?

Cars.com's American-Made Index rates vehicles built and bought in the U.S. Factors include sales, where the car's parts are made and whether the car is assembled in the U.S. Models that have been discontinued are disqualified, as are those with a domestic-parts content rating below 75 percent.

Rank Make/Model U.S. Assembly Location Last Rank
1. Ford F-150* Claycomo, Mo.;Dearborn, Mich.; 1
2. Toyota Camry**,Camry Solara Georgetown, Ky.;Lafayette, Ind. 2
3. Chevrolet Silverado 1500* Fort Wayne, Ind.;Pontiac, Mich. 3
4. Chevrolet Cobalt Lordstown, Ohio 4
5. Ford Focus Wayne, Mich. —
6. Toyota Sienna Princeton, Ind. 8
7. Chevrolet Malibu,Malibu Maxx Kansas City, Kan. 6
8. Pontiac G6 Orion, Mich. 9
9. Ford Escape** Claycomo, Mo. 10
10. Toyota Tundra Princeton, Ind.;San Antonio, Texas —

[Romulox]

130. No Toyotas are "American made". Not one.

"Made in the USA" has a legal definition, and "US assembly location" ain't it. Sorry.

[gollygee]

131. And they meet the legal definition, which is assembled in the US and made of at least 75% US-made

parts.

[Romulox]

134. You're simply mistaken. The legal standard is "all or virtually all" US content

In the mid 90s, there was an attempt to change the standard to 75% US content, but it was unsuccessful. Thus, the standard remains "all or virtually all"; I have linked to the FTC statement of policy three or four times in this thread.

[gollygee]

138. Almost no automobiles of any standard meet "virtually all" and NONE meet "all"

the best is 95%, and that is a Ford. And even in this list, it's US and Canada, because "all or virtually all US-made" doesn't exist.

For our family, we wanted a minivan. The Toyota Sienna is THE MOST American minivan there is.

Anyway, the list of the most American cars has quite a few from non-American companies, and in the article I posted elsewhere, you can see that many "American" cars are much less American than some of these supposedly foreign cars.

http://www.automotiveaddicts.com/inthenews/07-10-06.html

US-Assembled Cars Percent US/Canada content Name Corporate Profits
Ford Econoline 95% USA USA
Lincoln LS (production ended April 2006) 90% USA USA
Ford Escape 90% USA USA
Mercury Mariner 90% USA USA
Ford Ranger 90% USA USA
Cadillac DTS 90% USA USA
Chevrolet Silverado, GMC Sierra 90% USA USA
Mazda Tribute (Ford) 90% JAPAN JAPAN
Mazda B-Series (Ford) 90% JAPAN JAPAN
Lincoln Town Car 85% USA USA
Mercury Mountaineer 85% USA USA
Ford F-Series 85% USA USA
Chevrolet Colorado, GMC Canyon, 85% USA USA
Buick Rainer, GMC Envoy, Chevrolet TrailBlazer 85% USA USA
Isuzu Ascender (GM) 85% JAPAN JAPAN
Dodge Viper 85% USA GERMANY
Isuzu i-Series (GM) 85% JAPAN JAPAN
Toyota Sienna 85% JAPAN JAPAN
Dodge Grand Caravan – SWB 83% USA GERMANY
Chrysler Town & Country – SWB 82% USA GERMANY
Chrysler Sebring convertible 82% USA GERMANY
Jeep Wrangler 82% USA GERMANY
Ford Five Hundred 80% USA USA
Ford Expedition 80% USA USA
Ford Explorer 80% USA USA
Ford Freestyle 80% USA USA
Lincoln Mark LT 80% USA USA
Cadillac CTS 80% USA USA
Pontiac Solstice 80% USA USA
Chevrolet Corvette, Cadillac XLR 80% USA USA
Chevrolet Malibu, Pontiac G6 80% USA USA
Cadillac SRX 80% USA USA
Dodge Caravan – SWB 80% USA GERMANY
Toyota Camry 80% JAPAN JAPAN
Toyota Tundra 80% JAPAN JAPAN
Dodge Durango 79% USA GERMANY
Dodge Stratus 78% USA GERMANY
Mitsubishi Raider (Dodge) 78% JAPAN JAPAN
Dodge Dakota 77% USA GERMANY
Chrysler Sebring 77% USA GERMANY
Jeep Commander 76% USA GERMANY
Mercury Montego 75% USA USA
Chevrolet Uplander, Pontiac Montana SV6, Saturn Relay 75% USA USA
Chevrolet Cobalt 75% USA USA
Honda Ridgeline 75% JAPAN JAPAN
Honda Pilot 75% JAPAN JAPAN
Toyota Avalon 75% JAPAN JAPAN
Toyota Corolla 75% JAPAN JAPAN

[Romulox]

139. You've changed your argument now. Pointing Big 3 cars that don't meet the FTC definition

does not magically transform the cars Japanese companies assemble in "right to work" states as "Made in the USA".

[gollygee]

142. My argument is simply that they are indeed made in the USA

and in fact some "foreign" cars are MUCH more made in the USA then some "American" cars.

[Romulox]

143. Your argument is demonstratively wrong. I suppose you can assert night is day if you wish. nt

[gollygee]

144. I've demonstrated it's right with lists that show percentages of foreign vs. american parts.

You have just said the same thing over and over again without any facts.

[Romulox]

145. You are making up your own definitions. Here is the official definition.

http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/12/epsmadeusa.htm

[gollygee]

146. Well then no cars meet the definition

so what good is posting a definition here that no cars meet?

[Romulox]

147. That's obviously not true. It sounds like you are just making this up as you go along.

The first question you should ask yourself is, "what does all or virtually all" mean under the FTC policy?

If you don't know the answer to this, your broad pronouncements are without basis.

[A HERETIC I AM]

153. It is obvious that you have not read that Policy Statement and/or understood it completely.

Read it again.

Here, I'll help.

Kindly draw your attention to Section IV, Subsection A, which reads;

A. Site of Final Assembly or Processing

The consumer perception evidence available to the Commission indicates that the country in which a product is put together or completed is highly significant to consumers in evaluating where the product is "made." Thus, regardless of the extent of a product's other U.S. parts or processing, in order to be considered all or virtually all made in the United States, it is a prerequisite that the product have been last "substantially transformed" in the United States, as that term is used by the U.S. Customs Service -- i.e., the product should not be required to be marked "made in " under 19 U.S.C. § 1304.(15) Furthermore, even where a product is last substantially transformed in the United States, if the product is thereafter assembled or processed (beyond de minimis finishing processes) outside the United States, the Commission is unlikely to consider that product to be all or virtually all made in the United States. For example, were a product to be manufactured primarily in the United States (and last substantially transformed there) but sent to Canada or Mexico for final assembly, any U.S. origin claim should be qualified to disclose the assembly that took place outside the United States.

The key words there are "Substantially Transformed". Take a railcar full of various parts from various places and substantially transform them into a car at a plant in Kentucky and VOILA'! You have a car that can be legally called "Made in The USA".


Section V, Subsection B states;

B. Claims about Specific Processes or Parts

Regardless of whether a product as a whole is all or virtually all made in the United States, a marketer may make a claim that a particular manufacturing or other process was performed in the United States, or that a particular part was manufactured in the United States, provided that the claim is truthful and substantiated and that reasonable consumers would understand the claim to refer to a specific process or part and not to the general manufacture of the product. This category would include claims such as that a product is "designed" or "painted" or "written" in the United States or that a specific part, e.g., the picture tube in a television, is made in the United States (even if the other parts of the television are not). Although such claims do not expressly disclose that the products contain foreign content, the Commission believes that they are normally likely to be specific enough so as not to convey a general claim of U.S. origin. More general terms, however, such as that a product is, for example, "produced,"or "manufactured" in the United States, are likely to require further qualification where they are used to describe a product that is not all or virtually all made in the United States. Such terms are unlikely to convey to consumers a message limited to a particular process performed, or part manufactured, in the United States. Rather, they are likely to be understood by consumers as synonymous with "Made in USA" and therefore as unqualified U.S. origin claims.

The Commission further concludes that, in many instances, it will be appropriate for marketers to label or advertise a product as "Assembled in the United States" without further qualification. Because "assembly" potentially describes a wide range of processes, however, from simple, "screwdriver" operations at the very end of the manufacturing process to the construction of a complex, finished item from basic materials, the use of this term may, in some circumstances, be confusing or misleading to consumers. To avoid possible deception, "Assembled in USA" claims should be limited to those instances where the product has undergone its principal assembly in the United States and that assembly is substantial. In addition, a product should be last substantially transformed in the United States to properly use an "Assembled in USA" claim. This requirement ensures against potentially contradictory claims, i.e., a product claiming to be "Assembled in USA" while simultaneously being marked as "Made in ." In many instances, this requirement will also be a minimum guarantee that the U.S. assembly operations are substantial.

The Monroney label on every single new car sold in this country states where it was assembled and the AALA requires an additional label stating the percentage content of both foreign and domestically produced parts.

[Romulox]

154. It's not clear what point you think you're making, but it's clear you've misunderstood...

The section you quoted indicates that irrespective of the origins of the raw materials (i.e. even if 100% of the raw materials were sourced in the US,) a product may not be labeled "Made in USA" if the final place of assembly is outside the US. That does not mean that if a final product is assembled in the US, a product may be labeled "Made in USA" irrespective of the origins of the raw materials.

In other words, a final assembly point in the US is a necessary, but not sufficient condition of lawfully labeling a product "Made in the USA".

A. Site of Final Assembly or Processing

The consumer perception evidence available to the Commission indicates that the country in which a product is put together or completed is highly significant to consumers in evaluating where the product is "made." Thus, regardless of the extent of a product's other U.S. parts or processing, in order to be considered all or virtually all made in the United States, it is a prerequisite that the product have been last "substantially transformed" in the United States, as that term is used by the U.S. Customs Service -- i.e., the product should not be required to be marked "made in " under 19 U.S.C. § 1304.(15) Furthermore, even where a product is last substantially transformed in the United States, if the product is thereafter assembled or processed (beyond de minimis finishing processes) outside the United States, the Commission is unlikely to consider that product to be all or virtually all made in the United States. For example, were a product to be manufactured primarily in the United States (and last substantially transformed there) but sent to Canada or Mexico for final assembly, any U.S. origin claim should be qualified to disclose the assembly that took place outside the United States.

[gollygee]

132. And here is a list of "American" cars that DON'T meet the legal definiton of "made in the USA"

http://www.autobytel.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_id_int/1965

Top Ten All-American Imports
What you think is an American car may actually have import roots by Brian Chee

*snip*

It’s worked. Today, the Toyota Camry is one of the most American cars you can buy, more American than even the Ford Mustang. There’s more, too, much more, enough for us to compile a list of All-American “Imports” -- cars you think are American, but aren’t. The list includes the ‘Stang, and such apple pie marquees as the Chevrolet Tahoe, Dodge Charger and Chrysler 300. Some are made here, but carry fewer than the AALA’s mandated 75 percent parts mandate. Others are built in Canada, or Mexico. For the purpose of this list, we took the top sellers for 2006 with domestic nameplates that were either assembled elsewhere, or failed the AALA’s requirement. With some vehicles assembled in multiple locations, we kept the list to vehicles assembled in one location. For example, the Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan is built in the United States and Canada. In this case, along with the Dodge Ram, we chose the US plant as the home locations. Shoppers should know, however, that Chrysler’s minivans are basically split by wheelbase: the long-wheelbase versions, or “Stow and Go” models, are built in Canada, while the short-wheelbase vehicles are assembled in St. Louis, Missouri. We also disqualified vehicles that face elimination by 2009, thus disqualifying the Pontiac Grand Prix. For poncho fans out there, the Grand Prix is built in Canada, with 92 percent US-sourced plants.

It’s simple: in order to be “American Made,” a vehicle must be assembled here, with 75 percent of its content sourced from the US. The top selling cars that failed the test, in alphabetical order:

# Chevrolet Equinox

# Chevrolet HHR

# Chevrolet Impala

# Chevrolet Tahoe

# Chrysler 300

# Chrysler PT Cruiser

# Dodge Charger

# Ford Focus

# Ford Fusion

# Ford Mustang

(article continues at link)

[A HERETIC I AM]

135. Atta boy.

Stick to your guns. Goodonya.

You've strayed from the point you made to the previous poster to which I took issue with, but that's fine. The point was NOT that "Toyota is American made". Nobody argued that. The point was that they make or build or assemble cars in this country. Those three words mean essentially the same fucking thing.

Yes, I'm ignorant of a great many things. Including why Toyota would spend so much money on a Technical & Engineering center in Erlanger, KY, which is, according to their website, "playing an increasingly important role in the design-engineering and development of Toyota products, particularly those developed for the North American market.

I am also ignorant of why Honda has spent so much money on their college campus sized complex in Torrance, CA, complete with (GASP) Engineering labs and test facilities.

Hmmm...seems Nissan has a big ol facility in Farmington Hills, Mi. that does the same damned thing! Imagine that.

Ignorant. Yeah.

[EnviroBat]

169. Yep, and many of the Honda parts are manufactured at the Showa

plant right down the road from the Marysville Honda plant. The engines for Goldwing motorcycles are completely manufactured, casting and all at the East Liberty plant. That's about as American as you can get.

[reformedrethug]

166. well lets see

when talking about Honda's the majority of their parts are either made by Honda itself or procured through local/regional suppliers. As far as the engineering that is hard to say because Honda has an R&D facility in Ohio, engineering folks in cali, and as far as the profits every year each and every associate at Honda of America gets profit sharing checks plus honda stock.

[Romulox]

113. The use of the "Made in USA" claim is regulated by the FTC

not merriam-webster.

The Federal Trade Commission ("FTC" or "Commission") is issuing this statement to provide guidance regarding its enforcement policy with respect to the use of "Made in USA" and other U.S. origin claims in advertising and labeling. The Commission has determined, as explained below, that unqualified U.S. origin claims should be substantiated by evidence that the product is all or virtually all made in the United States.

http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/12/epsmadeusa.htm

[proud2BlibKansan]

152. And Fords are made in Mexico

This argument is old and tired. The US automakers lost.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

114. I loves my Toyota. Wouldn't buy anything else.

'94 4wd pickup. Bottom of the line. No radio, no AC, no nothing. Paid $13k for it in '93 and have put about $100 into it for repairs.

Alas, it will undoubtedly outlive me.

[Occam Bandage]

119. I adore my tiny little Hyundai, but thanks.

[JanMichael]

121. When Mopars ruled the earth...

[Tektonik]

122. My parents have owned both American and Japanese cars

In my lifetime my dad has has a white Ford Escort from the 80's, then he got another Escort in '93 (it drove for 350,000 miles in 7 years :crazy:), and then he got a Taurus in '00 and it was a piece of shit.

So when he had to buy a car a couple of years ago he went and bought an Accord. If it keeps well, I;d imagine his next car will be Japanese again.

My mom never had to buy a car until last year, and she went out and got a Prius and has been very happy with it.

[JCMach1]

157. my parents still own my grandparents (since deceased) 1998 Taurus

This is an EXCELLENT car which I usually drive when I am in the US. It also has excellent mileage.

[RoadRage]

126. Great.. my Honda Pilot runs like a champ. UNLIKE my Ford Explorer that was in the shop 9 times...

Ford = Piece of Crap
Honda = Runs like a champ

[skypilot]

128. kick...

...for reading later.

[texastoast]

140. My ancient Volvo is not on the list

Yea!

Nor any new one I lust after, but will NOT buy until something like the driveshaft finally breaks.

I'm on my fourth four-cylinder Volvo since 1978 and never paid more than $3000 each. Occasional repairs, but it surely beats a $400/month car payment.

[JNelson6563]

141. Guess who I am....

Waaaah! Waaah!! Nothing is manufactured in America anymore! Everything's made in China!

I think I'll go buy a foreign car now.

Who am I?

A dumbass American.

Oy.

[JosephSchmo]

150. I don't care if it's Japanese, American or Zimbabwalen.

I'll buy the best car for me.

[NMMNG]

151. I'm thrilled with my Saturn

Best car I ever had. :thumbsup:

[question everything]

159. In 1979 during the height of the gas shortage, I tried to purchase an American Car

GM came with those X cars but none of the dealers had any; the one that did - I think it was Buick - added $200 on top of the sticker price (we are talking a price of about $6,000). In hindsight, of course, I should count my blessings as the X cars were horrible.

I purchased a Ford Mustang and had hard time with it in the Midwest winter.

That was the last time we had an American car in our household. Volvos and Toyota Camrys lasting more than 10 years each. Now tell me of any American car that is designed to last that long in households where neither of us will even change the oil.

[madokie]

162. Ford man here

bring on any of the comparably priced other autos and compare them with a ford product then someone tell me that the others are better. Maybe its because I drive ford but a large percent of vehicles on our roads around here are, yep you guessed it, fords. Check it out sometime when you're or anyone is driving and notice the number of ford products in relation to all the others, I see no or very few 20 year old Japanese and or German autos. Hardly ever see a gm or Chrysler vehicle that are over 20 years old either. I'll put my 10 year old 127,000 mile F150 up against any and all comers. For all intent and purposes it's still like it was the day I bought it new, other than the paint and thats my fault not fords.

[Tyo]

170. Chrysler is probably a gonner...

I don't know much about Ford. As for GM, at least you can have bets with your friends about when the paint is going to start to self-destruct. Three to four years seems about average.