Times Won't Run Vagina Ad

[flowomo]

That's the headline on a story in the Seattle Weekly about the Seattle Times' refusal to run an ad for a performance of Eve Ensler's "Vagina Monologues" sponsored by the National Council of Jewish Women Seattle office at the Museum of History and Industry. The problem was the poster for the performance. Check it out and see what you think:

http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/blogs/dailyweekly/2008/02/post.php

[Fenris]

1. I love it!

Don't know what's so objectionable. If you're old enough to recognize an abstract vulva, you're old enough to not care.

[donsu]

2. the Seattle Times people are so square they are cubed

ignorant ninnys

[Warpy]

3. I agree with the article

I think the clit did it.

It seems no uptight male or pursed lipped Puritan wants to be reminded of what a woman's pleasure center is or where it is located.

[donsu]

7. or the messy place where babies come out

or the week long blood dripping from our lovely vaginas every month.

[Ano Genitus]

8. To be reminded, they would have to have known in the first place.

[Delphinus]

15. Haha!

Wonderful reply!!

And, welcome to DU!

[niyad]

4. I thought it was quite well done. what in the HELL is the problem?

[YOY]

5. Some people are scared of vaginas I guess

I rather like them...

[Cruzan]

12. Probably the same people who are offended by public breast feeding.

[TahitiNut]

36. Yup. I recall being fond of them. The graphic is a kind of map, too.

If I recall correctly, that red dot marks the (abstract) 'secret' location of the clitoris. :dunce: (It's been a while.)
Seems to be a fairly useful graphic assist for some. :shrug:

[Squatch]

6. Looks like a Georgia O'Keefe & Roy Lichtenstein mashup

[EvolveOrConvolve]

9. Is the Times a right-wing rag?

I lived in Tacoma for a bit in '93 and remember reading the PI, but I don't remember ever seeing or reading the Times.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with the poster. Anyone offended by an abstract image of a natural part of the body, even if used sometimes for reproduction, needs move out of the 50's and into the 21st century.

And I love Vaginas! (noticed I even capitalized it?)

[pitohui]

14. i don't think the word "abstract" means what you think it means

there is nothing abstract about the picture in the link i just clicked

[EvolveOrConvolve]

26. I know what abstract means

And the poster is a rough representation of a vagina. Does a vulva really have that many folds and lines?

If it were a clinical picture of a real vagina, then I could see where it would be a problem. Do you have a problem with vaginas, even abstract representations of them?

[pitohui]

40. oops back to the double posting error sorry EOM

.

[pitohui]

41. no, do you have a problem admitting it's representational?

look, i'm right, and you know i'm right, i said it was representational, and you agree

do you even have a vagina or know anyone who does? because as a woman i can assure you that there is nothing subtle or "abstract" about this picture

it's split beaver and it's cool in its place, which is not in a family newspaper, unless the same family newspaper is also publishing sketches of male sex organs

it isn't fair that the female sex organ can be used to sell, because we're just unfeeling objects i guess, but the male sex organ is sacred and can never be used for such a purpose

come on, this is elementary stuff

if only women's privates are NOT private and can be used to sell, while men's privates are actually private and holy, there's some unfairness there

you guys can get your jollies in lots of places, maybe the local newspaper is one place where i don't have to have my legs spread open?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

46. Holy shit.

Now you're arguing against an ad for the Vagina Monologues based on some sort of pseudo-feminist perspective?

Is that a vagina shaped hole you're digging for yourself?

[CTyankee]

56. well, if you go to Florence, Italy you can see the "David" by Michelangelo

in all of his glory, penis, scrotum and it's a fairly large statue. It is probably one of the most viewed works of art in the world, so I can't agree with your statement about men's sex organs being "private."

[EvolveOrConvolve]

58. Jeebus your arguments go 'round 'n 'round

First, if there were such a thing as the Penis Monologues, I would have no problem with an abstract penis used in an advertisement for it.

Second, is there something wrong with vaginas that they shouldn't be seen? Gosh, what kind of feminist are you?

Third, nowhere did I say that women were unfeeling objects and that the male sex organ is sacred and shouldn't be used to sell. For you to put those words into my mouth shows that you understand very little about males, especially men you chat with at DU.

Fourth, it's a matter of perspective: if the ad were for a pornographic movie that exploited women (as most do) it would be unacceptable. For gawd's sake, the ad is for the VAGINA MONOLOGUES, an empowering voice for women and something that teaches women that there sexuality in general and their vaginas in particular are not things that need to be hidden.

Fifth - your remark about men getting their jollies from anywhere was uncalled for. The insinuation you make is that men are disgusting sexual beasts. It hearkens backs to the earlier days of feminism when all men were considered rapists and whoremongers by default. You have an obvious problem with men in general, and I could make some educated guesses why, but I won't. A large majority of men are sensitive, good creatures that you've painted with your broad brush as nothing more than sexual adolescents.

Sixth, not all of us are artists. The image is merely representational. It's not a picture of an actual vagina, and looks very little like the vaginas I've seen. Abstract/representational - split all the hairs you want.

[otherlander]

65. ?

[flowomo]

10. hey, somebody just gave me a heart....

thanks. That actually feels very nice!

[gollygee]

11. Who knew a vagina would have a clitoris?!

We can't let that secret out!!

ROFL

Silly Seattle Times. Silly, silly, silly.

[TahitiNut]

39. Well ... way back when ... it seemed to some of us that it was a 'secret.'

After all, nobody talked about it on Ozzie & Harriet or Leave it To Beaver. (Funny ... it'd seem to be a natural topic for the latter show.)

:dunce:

[CTyankee]

61. Ya know, I think we have more of a hangup about vulvas than about vaginas.

I can't figure out why! It makes no sense to me, but there are people who now can say vagina and not vulva. Go figure!

[pitohui]

13. that's pretty explicit

i guess i have to agree that this ad doesn't belong in a family newspaper

don't people already know what a vagina is, without having a detailed drawing complete with clit included in the ad?

they probably knew they were pushing the limits and figured they'd get more publicity by having the ad refused than by having it run

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. Explicit? It's an abstraction.

"don't people already know what a vagina is, without having a detailed drawing complete with clit included in the ad?"

If people do know what a vagina is, they've got no problem with looking at the ad. If they don't know what a vagina is, then they're not going to get the abstraction.

[pitohui]

21. you clearly don't know what an abstraction is, it's representational

good lord, take an art class or something

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. LOL

Tell you what.

I'll go take an art class when you go see The Vagina Monologues.

[Forkboy]

31. He's right though.

It's not an abstract. :shrug:

Still a cool pic though! :)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

32. Oh I disagree.

It's very much an abstraction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction#Abstraction_in_art

[pitohui]

34. disagree all you like, you didn't even read your own link!

you are not humpty dumpty and words don't mean what you claim they mean, they mean what they do mean

you don't know the difference between an abstraction and a representation and that's pretty sad for somebody in the 21st century, but the answer is to educate yourself rather than to putting fingers in ears and saying, "lalalala i can't hear you"

this is a sketch of a split beaver wide open, hon, and any 8 year old can see it, if you can't, maybe the next step is an eye exam?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. Oh I read it, particularly the second clause of the second sentence.

Perhaps we're due for an art lesson.

Here's an abstraction of some women.



Here's an abstraction of a nude descending a staircase, you may have to squint and turn your head a little.



Here's an abstraction of nothing particular whatsoever.



Here's another abstraction of a vagina.

[Forkboy]

50. Oh sure...get all technical.

My Art History teacher would have either loved you or hated you. :)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. I'm guessing me and your art teacher...

Would have agreed to agree on the VM ad.

[gollygee]

18. Why does the inclusion of a clitoris make it more explicit?

A vagina isn't explicit but a clitoris is? Why is that?

[Squatch]

28. "detailed drawing"?

Was it taken out of the Physician's Desk Reference or something?

[physioex]

35. LOL.....

"Family Newspaper". So what is going to happen to those poor children when they see this ad? Stop being so sexually repressed like the rest of america. I guess we never really worked that fundie xtian mentality that came with the Puritans....

[RedShoesBlueState]

17. It's a little literal....

...for my tastes. I think it would have been fine without the clitoris. Without it, it's good representational art, open for interpretation. With it, it's a little bit literal for my tastes. I think it's just better art without it. (And this is coming from a woman who has no issues with her vagina. I have squatted over a mirror, and have viewed my cervix during a gyn exam, thank you very much.)

[Triana]

19. I don't see the problem with it....

...it appears to me that the Seattle Times is just looking for excuses to NOT run the ad.

[Beregond2]

20. VM

Well, it's ugly and vulgar, but I doubt most people would have noticed it anyway. As an owner of a business myself, I learned a while ago that print advertising has exactly zero impact. I don't know why people still waste money on it.

[pitohui]

24. ah but you see they aren't wasting money on the print ad

the ad has been refused, so they are getting benefit of the publicity without the nasty requirement that they actually pay for it

to my tastes, it is not nasty or vulgar, it's actually quite witty but it just doesn't belong in a family paper, any more than any other ad featuring wide open split beaver belongs in a family newspaper

[donsu]

68. ugly? vulgar? and a penis is what? beautiful?

I can remember, way back, seeing for the first time, in person, an erect penis; and thinking how awful it looked. I got used to it as it did wonders during sex.

[knitter4democracy]

22. What's wrong with that poster? I don't see anything wrong with it.

I have two kids, 7 and 5, who often look through the paper with me. If they asked, I'd tell them. We don't hide anything from out kids, though I know some moms who do. Frankly, this isn't representational enough for me to worry about. My kids would just see the heart and think it's for Valentine's Day.

[pitohui]

38. what if it were an ad for a "wild things" instead of the vagina monologues

or what if it were an ad for hustler's campus confessions?

same picture, but instead a "low brow" work instead of a "high brow" work being advertised

do you get it now? split beaver is not an appropriate way to sell theater/film tickets to a general audience

the same people who normally are all up in arms that "sex sells" thinks it's ok for split beaver to sell because in this case they think their "vagina monologues" is higher class than the other dude's "hustler's campus confessions"

it's a bit of classism and elitism, really, either the newspaper to be fair should be carrying split beaver ads for these other entertainments as well -- or, be reasonable, they should leave such ads for the local "single's classifieds" flyers

BTW, you don't remember being a kid, do you, at that age i knew instantly what georgia o'keefe was about and those were FLOWERS, c'mon, just because you're 7, you don't have eyes and a brain?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. You keep using the term "split beaver."

Weird.

Anyhoo...

"BTW, you don't remember being a kid, do you, at that age i knew instantly what georgia o'keefe was about and those were FLOWERS, c'mon, just because you're 7, you don't have eyes and a brain?"

Well if 7 year old boys are mature enough to handle it, why've you got a problem? Are you worried about 6 year old boys?

[Ano Genitus]

44. What if? I do not understand you at all.

It's an ad for a show about vaginas. What else should they advertise it with?

Your reasoning is tortured.

[knitter4democracy]

52. 1. Our paper has those ads and others for tittie bars.

2. You're comparing "The Vagina Monologues" with smut? Have you ever seen it performed or read it? It's not smut. It's not even all that erotic. I've read most of it, and I didn't find anything in there objectionable. It's not half as bad as the romance novels sold in the grocery stores. At least it's more honest than those things.

3. Why is the human body off-limits for kids? I went to college with a lot of kids who'd been kept out of sex ed or homeschooled, and they knew nothing about their bodies. Not a damn thing. I ended up being the sex ed chick on my dorm's floor my frosh year because I was the only one not ashamed to explain cycles and infections and periods and how not to get pregnant. I don't want my kids growing up thinking that "down there" is dirty or something to ignore and hope it goes away.

4. I really don't like the term "split beaver." Sorry, but I'm not a large rodent with teeth. Vulva or vaginal area is just fine, thanks.

Oh, and no, I didn't get O'Keefe. My mom, a high school art teacher, even had some of her prints in the house. I just thought they were pretty flowers. I didn't realize what they symbolized until high school. I just never thought about it.

[Rabrrrrrr]

63. For so-called feminist "protectionist", you sure have a macho fucked up view of the vagina

"split beaver" -

you fucking crack me up!!!

Seriously.

You always make me laugh. You have the ability to take the most innocent of anything and blow it utterly out of proportion and pretend it's something of incredible magnitude and univeral import in an effort to look knowledgeable and, I don't know, important or something. Hard to tell, because your posts are so fucking bizarre.

Do you even know what the Vagina Monologues is about?

[jakem]

23. they wouldnt run the picture of my penis either.

and it was running for senate!

(add rimshot here)

[pitohui]

45. well you see the penis is private and holy, while the vagina is not

as always, women can't expect equal treatment in this country

at the end of the day, we are expected to spread our legs even to sell tickets, sigh!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

49. You realize this is the SEATTLE Times, right?

[knitter4democracy]

53. Do you know what "The Vagina Monologues" is about?

It's about women talking honestly to women about being a woman. It's not about spreading our legs to sell tickets, for crying out loud. It's "Our Bodies, Ourselves" in dramatic form. That's it.

[truebrit71]

27. Um....I can see their point...

...perhaps a little TOO obvious as to what they're on about...

[devilgrrl]

29. Fear the Vagina!

:scared:

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

30. The only thing I fear about The Vagina...

Is that I fear it is merely an artifact, however pleasurable, of my past. Gone, never to be seen again :sigh:

[Kurovski]

33. Free the vagina!

Or else reconfigure the Washington monument.

:rofl: A great OP for heart week here on DU.

[mikeytherat]

42. I prefer the Clinton Monument

In futurama, there is a Clinton Monument right next to the Washington Monument. Although the Clinton Monument is styled after the Washington Monument, Clinton's is much, much larger and more impressive.

:rofl:

mikey_the_rat

[KG]

47. heh. i love when a thread brings out the sexually repressed.

:rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. Or the logically deficient.

Geez, just watching them grasp at straws regardless of the topic is funny business.

[BlueIris]

69. Or the life-impaired.

[aikoaiko]

54. .

[whatchamacallit]

55. WARNING: this 1970s album cover may offend

I don't know if the band was a big deal, but their record cover sure was.

Check this out from the website where I found the cover:

What happened afterwards: "The only thing this band is remembered for is the cover of their debut album. At first glance, the cover looks innocent enough. It shows a kindly looking farmer's wife holding forth a freshly baked pie with one slice removed. Upon closer examination, however, you can see that the pie is very special! Right at the tip of the missing slice in the filling of the pie can be seen a very nice rendering of female genitalia. After word got out, retailers demanded that Capitol Records do something about it. They did. They filled the slice up with bricks, surrounded it with barbed wire, and raised the American Flag."

Not sure if this is true, I couldn't find the revised version.

[Junkdrawer]

59. revised version

[Stinky The Clown]

57. Hahahahaha ........... aaaaaah hahahahahaha

That's too funny.

And somebody in Seattle needs to get a life. And lighten up.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

60. LOL happy valentines vagina!

[bbernardini]

62. Ah, the good ol' JazzText font.

A classic.

[riderinthestorm]

64. Just showed it to my 11 year old daughter and she said....

"so what?" When I explained that people thought the ad was too "explicit" she looked closer at it, finally recognized what it was, looked back at me and said, "explicit?! That's actually pretty cool looking."

This is a kid who is well aware of what vulvas and vaginas look like as we do a lot of horse breeding - she is intimately aware of genitalia and even she didn't get it at first.

Kids don't think like that imho, and people who think kids ARE making those leaps are stretching. The ad is great - it's exactly representative of what the play really is all about. I love it.

[Canadiana]

66. The one problem I have with the vagina monologues

is that it is largely about the vulva. For example, that picture is not even a representation of a vagina..its of a vulva. The vulva is far more interesting to look at though. I doubt a muscular tube would sell many tickets.

[SoCalDem]

67. Guess I'll have to change the title of my play.. "The Penis Dialogue"

Drat.. back to the drawing board :rofl: