I can't keep track anymore. We need a forum for being sold out...

[arendt]

we could call it:

Sold Out by Democrats and Other Followers of Finance or, for short, SOD OFF.
(A marvelous British/Irish phrase that goes FU even one better.)

------

Obligatory Disclaimer: I will support the Democratic nominee no matter who it is.

------

Having said that, there is a deep and building anger that being loyal to the Democratic Party is a one-way street. That the politicians who beat us up to be loyal are, themselves, not loyal to the historic values of the party or to the people who continue to vote for them.

These days, its not clear if they took an oath to "preserve, protect, and defend" the Constitution or their contributions.

As I said in the title, I simply cannot keep track of the number of occasions where we have been sold out. I mean, to just talk about the FISA act lets the perpetrators off too easily. Senator Dodd killed immunity back last year. That was one sellout averted. But, Harry Reid put it back on the table. Can someone total up the number of different procedural votes and other instances of blatant sellouts on the FISA act and telecom immunity alone? Ditto for cutting off funding for the Occupation, for saying yes to every "supplementary" budget without a fight, without any kind of pressure on the GOP.

We could set up the forum so that it takes, say, 100 votes for something to be an official sellout. When that occurs, the sellout gets a number and goes into a permanent list that is pinned to the top of the forum. Then we could have a "sellout rating", which would be the number of items in the list that Congress-critter X voted in favor of.

Some might call the forum a "dungeon"; but I think it would be a useful resource for getting the corruption in this party out in the open.

What do you think?

arendt

[Horse with no Name]

1. I agree

I cannot remember a time when I have been so disillusioned with the process.
People here expect us to have faith in our fellow American citizens who stood by and did nothing while the SCOTUS circumvented their Constitutionally guaranteed right to vote, did nothing when a CIA agent was outed for political gains, did nothing when the Downing Street memos came to light, did nothing when the abuses at Gitmo came to light, did nothing when they learned that our government was secretly torturing innocent people, continue to do nothing about an illegal war....the list goes on and on.
I'm sorry that I have no HOPE that these same Americans will make the right decisions come election time.
The only time that they have shown that they even give a shit about this fallacious administration is when it DIRECTLY affects them.
They care not that our soldiers are sleeping in the streets, or when our citizens were drowning in the streets, or that our fellow Americans are dying every day because they cannot afford healthcare. We have one of the worst infant mortality rates and certainly the worst of any industrialized country. Our education system is fraught with administration policies that do nothing except line the pockets of their croneys. College is beginning to be out of reach for many young adults. We are losing ground and we are losing ground very quickly.
Our Congress is spending time giving legal cover to corporations who have committed treasonous acts.
I'm sorry if I cannot trust these SAME Americans to carry through a legitimate election or take the streets if it is not.
We.are.fucked.
Obama can't save us, Hillary can't save us, hell, we can't even save ourselves.:(
I can't even say for certain that George W. Bush will walk away from the WH no matter WHO wins the election.
All I can do is picture his smirking face saying "Whatcha gonna do about it"?
And if the answer is true to form....it will be another big fat "nothing".

[Mira]

6. Now you made me cry N/T

[arendt]

9. Is there a smiley for "I share your despair"?

> We.are.fucked.
> Obama can't save us, Hillary can't save us, hell, we can't even save ourselves.

Yeah, I've had happy mornings like that. More and more, recently.

But, hey, a SOD forum gives you a chance to shotgun a TV. Take it out on someone. Make your vote count :-).

Might as well rearrange a few deckchairs while the boat goes down.

arendt

P.S. Have a nice day ! :cry:

[bpeale]

35. this is the best post i've read in a long, long time

you hit every nail right on the head.

the democratic party has sold us out, sold us down the river, sold us a bill of goods ... they are just playing with our heads. and we let them get away with this bullshit. when are the electorate going to stand the fuck up enmass and say ENOUGH! you are not going to do this anymore!

never. that's when. i no longer have any faith in the democratic party, in congress or the senate, and lost whatever faith i had in our government a long time ago.

[Mira]

2. SOLD OUT - that's how I feel - and maybe we need to kick that idea around

I felt misrepresented with my Senators, Burr and Dole :puke: :puke:
until after November of 06 when I began to realize I was screwed either way, including yesterday.

Actually I don't think we talk enough about it, they are just simply ignoring the will of the people.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

3. K&R n/t

[Divernan]

4. I think it's an excellent idea and your criteria for inclusion are more than fair.

I agree that the sellouts are horrifying. I also know from working with a state legislature that when there's a vote on a bill which will be unpopular with the constituents back home, party leadership (both parties) carefully count their votes and discuss how many members will be needed to carry the vote, and which members can be allowed to vote in opposition. A key consideration is who is up for election soonest, and whether their district is "safe", i.e, their constituents will vote the man/woman back into office no matter what. Then, if leadership allows a member to vote against a bill, the member is on the hook to return the favor at some future point - at least if they expect to get any funding and other campaign support in a primary or general from their party. That is why I always make my donations directly to a candidate and not to any national or state Dem party organization which I KNOW will wheel and deal to blackmail the recipients of their largesse.

I'd also like to see the direct correlation between a vote (such as for telecom immunity) and the exact dollar amount the Senator/Rep. receives from industry lobbyists.

[arendt]

7. Amen. I am so tired of hearing about the "safety" vote that critter X was given as a fig leaf by...

the party leadership - exactly as you say - in one of those pre-vote counting sessions.

The number of people saying Senator Mikulksi (SOD-MD) is "nice" or "OK" makes me want to :puke:. The woman consistently votes against the interest of Democrats. I could say the same about any of the Blue Dog Dems, who are more GOP than Dem.

> I'd also like to see the direct correlation between a vote (such as for telecom immunity) and the
> exact dollar amount the Senator/Rep. receives from industry lobbyists.

That sounds like it would take some research, unless CREW or someone has a handy breakout of who owns what percentage of which critter.

I am beginning to be serious about this flippant suggestion; so I want the mechanics of the SOD forum to be as simple as possible. Just a vote and a list of sellouts. But, feel free to make your case in more detail.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

arendt

[Divernan]

16. One colorful example from PA House of Representatives re pay increase

Some years back, the dems were in the minority of the House at that point but good old Bill DeWeese was collaborating with the Republican leadership (Ridge was Governor and was on board) to jam through another late night pay raise for the legislators/judges. DeWeese had to come up with "x" number of votes, and at a packed Dem caucus with nearly every Dem Representative present, DeWeese started calling out particular legislators from "safe" districts by name to put the pressure on. He started in on one Rep (known for his volatile temper) and tried to shame the guy into going along by saying, "But I gave your brother a job as a Turnpike (PA Toll Road) collector". That none-too-subtly implies the Rep's brother was too stupid to get a higher level state job - like salesman in a state liquor store. The Rep jumps to his feet and bellows: "Then get my fucking brother to vote for your fucking payraise!" and stormed out of the caucus room. Said Rep lost his committee chairmanship after that incident. But he eventually "bought" it back.

[arendt]

20. Ah, Pennsylvania, home of "money talks and BS walks" ABSCAM. n/t

[arendt]

5. Given the amount of bashing of Dem candidates that goes on in GD-P, a SOD forum would...

at least be directing our fire on people who cast REAL votes on REAL bills - instead of whining about poll numbers, haircuts, dog whistles, and other bloody intangibles.

Maybe someone knows of a political organization that already keeps such a list, the way that they have liberal and conservative report cards.

arendt

[AlertLurker]

15. Here's a list...REAL votes on a REAL bill...

To bad they voted to "immunize" telecoms:

Bayh (D-IN)
Carper (D-DE)
Conrad (D-ND)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kohl (D-WI)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lincoln (D-AR)
McCaskill (D-MO)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Webb (D-VA)

Assholes.

[marmar]

8. Dems promised to guard our civil liberties like a determined virgin on Prom Night....

.... but they're giving them up like a hooker at a bachelor party.

[arendt]

10. House of Representatives(HR) = Hookers on Retainer? n/t

[Steven_S]

11. I would add my congressman, Joe Crowley...

alleged democrat from the Bronx and Queens, NY. Sold out to the Indian, Israel, banking and insurance lobbies. And didn't seem too happy with me when I suggested that GWB punked him on the war vote.

SOD OFF, indeed, Mr. Crowley.

And a great idea on your part, arendt.

[arendt]

13. Thanks for your enthusiasm. The IWR is the ur-sellout. n/t

[Ezlivin]

12. It's time to face the fact: WE are not represented, corporate interests are

How any fucking representative could in good conscience give immunity to lawbreakers is beyond me. These so-called "representatives" raised their hand and took an oath to uphold the Constitution. In reality they took an oath to uphold whatever the corporate interests want, Constitution be damned.

We are all suckers and have fallen prey to the scam of "representative democracy." It's clearly a fascist state now.

[Tyler Durden]

14. What do I think?

I think I'm glad I took you off "IGNORE" a while back.

[arendt]

19. Thanks n/t

[Aleric]

17. Why stay in an abusive relationship?

My first thought upon reading this is, "why stay"? I left, so should you. I was tired of being taken advantage of and taken for granted. I love your idea, though and I would like to see it promoted right along side the Top-10 Conservative idiots. Yet, DU has always lacked a true 'Underground' because it seems unwilling to really hold dems to task. Joe Lieberman *should* have been in the top 10 years before he finally went Independent but, as long as he had that (D) after his name, he was a scared cow not to be harmed in any way.

We could call the forum DINO-BOUGHTs. (I have no idea why the Transformers are suddenly in my head but the word DECEIpT-ICONs comes to mind, too.

[arendt]

18. It would sure be interesting to see DU administration's attitude towards such a forum...

Off the top of my head, in no particular order or importance, here are some sellouts that I would like to see listed:

Topic: "Impeachment is off the table".
....This brings up the important question of how do you get sellouts on record when the sellout is the failure to even bring a bill up for consideration (either in a sub-committee, committee, or on the floor at large)?

The egregious acceptance of a committee to study "Homegrown Terrorism and Violent Radicalization" - read "thought police". This piece of police state garbage was voted through by something like 430-5. WTF was that about?

Not filibustering any of the war funding (another negative sellout).

Cave-in on the "stimulus (for banks and Wall St) package".

----

Any of these topics are roundly criticized at DU, and there is never any doubt as to the legitimacy of that criticism.

The difference between scattershot criticism and an institutionally-supported forum that keeps a list permanently on display is the difference between "typical" and "normative" behavior. This difference is crucial in a democracy. For example, Christianity is "typical" in America; and that is fine. But the minute someone tries to make it "normative" (i.e., recognized by the government), we have theocracy.

My proposal for a forum is to make our recognition of the on-going sellout "normative".

I'd love to hear the reaction to this by the mods.

arendt

[radfringe]

21. we already do

it's called Congress.. big sign in the Lobby

"SUNDAY! SUNDAY! SUNDAY!
EVERYTHING MUST GO!
DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM MUST GO NOW
TO MAKE ROOM FOR DICTATORSHIP!
NO REASONABLE BRIBE OR DONATION
WILL BE REFUSED"

[femrap]

22. K and R

What a fabulous idea. I keep a notebook beside my computer, where on what I deem an important vote, I list the asshole Dems who vote against We, The People. Then I write a snail mail to each one.

I think it would be cool to have A NATIONAL REGISTRY OF SOD OFFS...this would include their addresses, phone numbers, and email address so any and all of We, The People could bombard them with nasty letters.

I know that we are told to be polite when calling or writing...why? Why do I have to be nice when me and the Constitution are getting f*cked? Why?

[arendt]

23. Maybe we need a "distractions" sub-category - for crap like steroids

We could call it the "deckchairs" forum. Call it SOD-OFF in a deckchair.

What kind of F'ed up priorities has investigatin this ahead of investigated and prosecuting the massive, coordinated criminality of this Constitution-threatening bunch of bagmen?

There are so many ways to ruin things, I cannot begin to write them down.

arendt

[Neo-wobbly]

24. I think

That continuing to support the people who are selling you out (and I agree completely with your analysis) is the only thing keeping the system going; if you don't like it, stop supporting them!

[arendt]

25. Its exactly like the dollar situation. We'd love to change, but what is the alternative?

Right now I am voting for the lesser of the lesser of two evils.

I am voting for the Dem because he/she is less evil than the GOP.

I am voting for (pick your candidate) becuase he/she is less of a sellout than some other Dem.

BUT, the contests were rigged (like some sadistically-seeded sports tournament) by big media and big money to eliminate any of the people I really liked.

Reality sucks. Just because I have to vote for someone I don't like, doesn't mean I have to kiss their ass. I will call them a sellout.

arendt

[Neo-wobbly]

26. Here's the problem:

If you vote for "the lesser of two evils" (and i'll only buy that for Obama, I would never vote for Clinton), then you still get evil. Moreover, next time around, you'll get the same (or worse!) choices.

On the other hand, if we tell these people that they will never win without supporting at least SOME of our views, then yes, we may lose this time, but maybe we'll get some serious candidates in 2012. I'm not sure I would define a Clinton or Obama victory as "winning", anyway.

[arendt]

27. Can't wait 4 more years. We're all but dead now. Have to deal with them...

yes, they will be as infamous and extortionate as the Roman emperor Crassus, who set up the first fire company:

he arrived at a burning building and demanded half(or more) of the value of what he saved or he wouldn't fight the fire.

Soon, he graduated to threatening people with arson in order to sell subscriptions to his fire fighting service.

----

In the four years you ask us to wait:

1. Global warming will be that much further beyond repair.
2. Either our national debt will be beyond repayment or the world will have cut us off at the economic knees.
3. We will have institutionalized torture, wiretapping, and corporate bribery as partisan political tools (exclusively for the GOP).
4. The Constitution will be ancient history.
5. We will live in a Christian nation.
6. Either our military will be broken or we will pay Blackwater to do everything, including shooting domestic dissenters.

Do I have to go on? How can you possibly consider sitting this election out? They are running the clock out on us; not vice versa. Waiting is an option we don't have.

arendt

[Neo-wobbly]

31. Allow me to retort

You are right in that there are many pressing issues that need to be addressed, but how would supporting either of our current clowns- er, candidates, help?

1. Neither Clinton nor Obama have effective plans to fight global warming; biofuels are actually worse!


2. Bill Clinton is the one who left us with a great deal of this mess; "economic boom" my ass, every company on the Fortune 400 restated its earnings for the previous 10 years DOWN in 2001, and neither Clinton or Obama are supporting any method of fixing it; appeasement won't do.


3. Yes, torture and wiretapping which neither candidate has stood up against; indeed, they have ridiculed the few politicians who have dared to say anything about it <cough>McCain<cough>. As for corporate bribery, the only serious contender who had a leg to stand on on this issue was Edwards: both Obama and Clinton are in the corporate lobbyists' pockets. Another example of where their Republican counterpart is actually more liberal than they are!


4. The constitution is already ancient history: name a single amendment in the bill of rights that has not been undermined; again with the help of "Democrats" like Clinton and Obama.


5. Well, there's a trick; McCain is pandering to the Christian right, but even they're not stupid enough to believe him. Also, if these guys were really committed to this nonsense, don't you think they could or would have done something about it in the 6 years they had absolute control of all 3 branches of government? They can't because the second that they outlaw abortion, half their voter base stays home. These guys aren't Christians, they're playing them for fools.


6. Our military is not now, nor will it, in the foreseeable future, be "broken'; the whole reason they're bringing in mercs in the first place is to do things that a regular army unit would mutiny over. The reason our military is in trouble is because we've asked them to fight a battle under conditions that make it impossible. Your Roman Emperor would have ended the insurrection in about a month, by shooting every tenth person, once a week until the attacks stopped. We don't live in the same world (thankfully!), and so we have to try other methods, none of which are at all effective.

Lastly, who said anything about sitting this one out? I plan on voting third party, because the two-party system is the real problem; this whole "you have to vote for us, because no matter how bad we are, the other guy is worse; there is no other choice" crap has to go.

[arendt]

32. Your retort and your proposed vote are pefectly legitimate choices...

unlike others on this board, I will not DEMAND that people vote my way.

A sane political platform would include:

1) A national program to get un-addicted to fossil fuel (and avoid nukes) by researching and building (in the U.S.) massive amounts of alternative energy technologies - heating, electricity, transportation.

2) Fire everyone at the regulatory agencies, disband them, and start over. You are more likely to be firing corrupt hacks than honest civil servants. If you feel guilty about that, give a good pension to anyone who has been in an agency for over thirty years - they are probably the least corrupt, or they would long since have departed via the revolving door.

3. Restore the Constitution - (how to do this is beyond me)

4. Disband the mercenaries. Move their functions back into the real army. Cancel the Haliburton contracts. Move the logistics chain back inside the real army.

5. Have a new "Church commission". Shine some light on the $50 Black Budget (of all services and all intelligence agencies, including DHS).

6. Start prosecuting violations of separation of Church and State and separation of powers (impeach them all, even after they are gone).

-----

Of course, none of this is going to happen. My point is that no third party candidate is going to win, and no winning candidate is going to do the right thing. (Not going to win because, first, its simply too late to organize an effective third party ticket and get it on the ballot.)

So, how is your vote third party tactic any more effective than my vote for the lesser of two evils tactic? Just asking, in a friendly way. I'm reading in that your answer is that McCain is no worse than what the Dems will put up. My response is that you will have now normalized Bush/Cheney's lawless reign of looting and terror by not voting out the GOP.

arendt

[Neo-wobbly]

37. Pretty much

Those are perfectly valid methods to correct the worst of the abuses; I disagree with a few (e.g. some of the regulatory agencies work just fine, if they aren't hamstrung by political hacks), but it's a very mild disagreement :)

More serious is the issue of 3rd party candidates; of course they can't win, but if they get enough of the vote (5% if I recall correctly), then they get funds matching and all the other little perks the Dems and Reps have voted themselves. I am actually more interested in getting 3rd party candidates elected in local and state elections, but federal recognition of the party as a whole would go a long way. I don't even care (much) which 3rd party we get: the Greens are genuine progressives (if a little wacky on some issues), while the Libertarians at least respect Civil Liberties (even if their economic agenda is ludicrous) and pull support away from the GOP. How can we lose?

As for McCain, what do you want? He's scum. I am simply unmoved by the "my scum is better than your scum!" argument, and he has a stronger record of liberal attitudes than either Clinton or Obama! (think campaign finance reform and torture).

I'll tell you what: I will support Obama if he will get on the right side of any of the following issues: Iraq; Universal Health Care; Campaign Finance reform; education; reversal of the Patriot and FISA laws; prosecution of Bush, Cheney, Rice, et al. for war crimes; or complete legalization of all drugs/serious penal system reform.

I won't vote for Hillary, whatever she says; I wouldn't believe her, anyway.

[arendt]

39. I have often discussed the impossibility of third party wins in a winner-take-all voting system...

like we have in the U.S. (As opposed to proportional representation with national lists, like most European democracies have.) In fact, I talked about replacing the entire U.S. governmental structure, at length:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/arendt/75 (this is the first of two journal entries. The other is right after/before it.)

But, these threads sunk like a stone. Process is a huge yawn to most people. Witness how even DU has succumbed to horse race fever.

If you can't get people to act in the face of blatantly dictatorial (if process-y) actions, like retroactive immunity, corruption of the U.S. attorneys, illegal wiretaps, how are you going to move from the current broken system to a system powerful enough to get the corporations back under control, simply by saying the magic words "third party"? The third party has to have massive and innovative ORGANIZATIONAL capabilities, not just an ideologically acceptable platform. I don't see any third party with those capabilities. I see nothing but ideological splinter groups, fighting over party purity. Libertarians - what a dangerous, testosterone-poisoned, adolescent joke they are. Greens - totally self-sabotaged. Hell, Michael Bloomberg could get more votes from a standing start in October, 2008 than those two parties combined will get.

I think we have reached a level of political breakdown on par with 1856, when the system was obviously gridlocked; but everyone agreed to pretend it wasn't. The resulting four year standoff just gave both sides time to arm and recruit.

Fine, go ahead and vote third party. Let's assume McCain gets in. Then, he will let all these rotten GOP appointees continue to dismember the government, let the corporations sell off and rip off the rest of America's wealth, and increasingly turn the wiretapping, false arrest, political prosecution screws on dissent, and even effective opposition. When it gets to 2012, you every non-GOP candidate will get COINTELPROed into oblivion. It will be like a Civil War in which the South armed-up, while the North did nothing.

While I agree that the individual candidates are nothing but corporate lapdogs, the Democratic Party does have at least 30-40% true small-d democrats, mostly involved in the DNC and the local parties. The difference between GOP and Dem control is that, under Dems, at least some decent people will be appointed, and the GOP ideologues will have to orchestrate their sabotage from outside the WH. I think that is enough of a difference to vote for, as you so aptly put it, "our scum".

arendt

arendt

[Neo-wobbly]

45. Seen it all before

I would love to see massive election reform, but you're asking our legislators to change a system that is biased towards them, and none of them have the foresight to understand that it is in their best interest, in the long run.

That's the other problem: we don't get statesmen anymore, we get mouthpieces. All of our politicians' greatest talent is in getting elected, and very few of them seem to have any idea of the larger effects of their actions. Why aren't the Michigan congressmen screaming for universal health care? Wouldn't it be nice if GM could quit arguing over its' pensioners medical benefits and build some cars?

I'll only say two things about the third parties: First, the Greens at least have the right idea, and someone needs to represent that. Second, you dismiss the Libertarians on fairly weak grounds; their economic agenda is insane (pure Laissez-faire capitalism, essentially), but their platform on civil liberties is more progressive than either the dems or the greens.

If there is political breakdown, it is because the corporations have bought all the politicians, in both parties, and any attempt to throw off the yoke is met with mass media character assassination (witness John Edwards, in part).

My third party support is based on the fact that there is no meaningful difference between any of the candidates; so McCain will appoint corrupt officials? So will Clinton and Obama, and for that matter, so did Bill. We voted this congress in on a platform of opposition to the war, reversal of the Patriot Act and FISA laws, investigation of the administration, and what have they given us? What did they sell out our soldiers, freedoms, and justice for? A minimum wage hike. I mean, I'm not the greatest negotiator in the world, but I'm certain I could have gotten a better deal than that blind-drunk.

If that's enough of a difference for you, more power to you, and no joke. I just think that we're too close to the tipping point for half-measures to save us, now.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

28. or, Other Followers of Fascism?

Pigs at the trough. Time to shut off the tap and stop the feeding. This goes for the Senate and the House.

[arendt]

29. OK. It can be a multi-use acronym. n/t

[arendt]

30. front page kick n/t

[RuleOfNah]

33. I endorse this message.

[bpeale]

34. SOD OFF! what a great title for a forum!

but appropriate. all these threads today about how conyers is going to issue contempt citations or pelosi is going to act make me sick. these people are going to do nothing. because even if we act out, they will simply have us arrested & put in jail.

they are beyond contemptible!

[arendt]

36. Yeah, the name alone is warning for what you will encounter. :-) n/t

[PuraVidaDreamin]

38. Best post I've read in a long time

I'd love to be able to confront my congressman to let him know how I feel. But he does not
make himself accessible. Our group asks for meeting with him all the time. We never get one.
The last time we got one was after we were arrested in his office for trespassing- telling his staff
that we wouldn't leave until we were granted such a meeting. He doesn't even hold town meetings
anymore. But he's well connected, and funded. He's a (D), and can claim that he always voted against
this war, but with the counting and trading of votes, It truly is depressing.

[BeHereNow]

40. GREAT idea Arendt- a way to focus on the top offenders

If Skinner and Co. would consider the idea, it could be VERY useful
in organizing action- I'm sure there are plenty of DUers who signed
on for the DU activists who would appreciate this sort of forum.

By documented and keeping the focus specifically on the corporacrat
and corporepublicans, we could then start launching massive
email/phone and public awareness campaigns.

Great way to focus some our "we are fucked" energy.
And perhaps more importantly, a way to document for
future generations, how it happened and the fact that
some of us tried to stop it.

BHN

[BeHereNow]

41. Error: You've already recommended this thread...

heh
BHN

[BeHereNow]

42. Kick

bhn

[JackRiddler]

43. Dude...

If I had money to give this quarter, you'd get all my "hearts."

[Perry Logan]

44. We could have the new forum heavily soundproofed, so as to drown out the whining.

[lonestarnot]

46. Well could we fucking smoke in there?

:smoke: