Should Coastal States Start Building Desalination Plants to Supply Inland States With Water?

[Ghost in the Machine]

I just read about Lake Meade running dry by 2021, along with the water running out in Georgia and other states.

Wouldn't desalination plants in several cities in each state along the coasts help provide water where it is needed? These plants would also help local economies, and produce jobs also.

What affect would this have on ocean levels? As seen in some global warming studies, and on the show 6 Degrees, cities in coastal states are at risk of being under water because of rising sea levels due to melting icebergs and polar caps.

Wouldn't it be wise to start drawing down the levels now, to avoid such a catastrophe in the future?

Would this even be a workable plan? Could more jobs be created by building pipelines into the inland States that need the water? This is just a thought that struck me while reading about the water shortages, but seriously, how workable is it?

Thanks

Ghost

[madrchsod]

1. recycling every drop of water is a start

desalination will not replace enough water for these cities but that does not mean they should`t be built. the west has many examples of other civilizations that disappeared due to past climate change and will we have the same fate?

[itsrobert]

2. It's expensive project.

It takes a lot of energy (I assume) to run these plants. I guess getting power from tidal wave production or buoy power might help. Or solar or wind. Than you would have to get it pumped it up hill to Lake Mead (more energy needed). I'm guessing the closest salt water source to Lake Mead would be the Gulf of California.

[cbayer]

5. that's my understanding as well.

I am currently on (well on the water near) an island with a desalination plant. They use is as little as possible because they are hugely expensive to run. I think conservation is the key. Like outlawing lawns in the desert. What's up with that?

[Bandit]

28. They really are not that expensive, most large fishing vessels have them

The large off shore processing plants have them as do oil rigs off shore. It is the distribution after the fact that gets expensive..

[IDemo]

3. They couldn't pump enough water to affect sea levels

Desalination sounds good but it's a very energy-intensive process, and pumping it elsewhere even more so. I understand it is being used to a certain extent in Israel and elsewhere, but it is never going to replace dried up Lake Meads or Ogallala Aquifers.

[Jeffro40]

15. Used a lot more than "a certain extent" in Israeal

There are DS plants all over the middle east. These are DESERTS. There are few fresh water sources. Most of the water in Israel and Saudi comes from DS plants.

[Warpy]

4. Richardson suggested a nationwide grid for water supply

and garnered howls of protest from people around the Great Lakes that he was going to "steal" their water.

His idea was a more visionary one, that of water rich areas being able to sell that resource to water poor areas, something that would help the rust belt states immeasurably while alleviating the stress of drought where it was occurring.

Undoubtedly, desalinization plants in the West, especially, would be part of this.

[hedgehog]

6. Evidently, Richardson is unfamilar with the Aral Sea.

The Great Lakes are largely a closed loop system.

[cloudythescribbler]

13. moving info and pics but irrelevant to desalination of sea water

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. But not completely closed

The St. Lawrence flow still averages 244,000 cubic feet per second - about 40% of the Mississippi's 600,000 cubic feet per second.

That makes it quite a different system from the landlocked Aral Sea. I'm not saying diverting large amounts of water from the Great Lakes would be a good idea - but it's a significantly different situation.

[Warpy]

29. He just sat here in the southwest during our drought

and watched flooding in other parts of the country and wondered why the hell we couldn't distribute the wealth of water more evenly.

The Aral Sea projects were very poorly thought out and managed.

The whole thing might be moot, anyway, as climate change dries everything up inland.

[TalkAgain]

7. Yes ASAP

[Ezlivin]

8. Technology can't always rescue us from ourselves

It's typical of modern people to think that we can engineer our way out of problems. Some problems, however, are not amenable to technological solutions. For instance, the shortage of water goes hand-in-hand with an ever increasing population and poor conservation measures. We can start conserving, but that still does not account for the other variable: The increasing population.

[alittlelark]

17. Don't forget the REALLY big problem....

Sea water is at sea-level. The energy necessary to move that water up thousands of feet is enormous..

That isn't even taking into acct. the energy necessary to de-salienate the water.

[Ghost in the Machine]

18. How much energy do you think it takes?

"By far the most promising approach is the reverse osmosis process, in which pressure is applied to saltwater to force it through a special membrane. Only pure water passes, leaving concentrated seawater behind. Where multistage flash distillation costs about $4 per 1,000 gallons, reverse osmosis costs about half that amount. This process is used by a plant in the Tampa Bay area, Florida, that produces 25 million gallons of drinking water a day. Another type uses an empty hollow sphere of semipermeable material that is lowered into the sea. The water flowing into the sphere is fresh, since the salt is excluded by the membrane that covers the entire sphere and is its guard."

So we can figure $2000/million gallons using reverse osmosis would equal less than a half a cent per gallon, right? so they could make a profit selling the water at 2 cents per gallon to other states. Hell, lets make it a nickle.. people pay $1.09 for a 20 ounce bottle of water in a store.. how much money could this venture produce? This one plant in Tampa, producinf 25 million gallons per day, costs $50,000 to produce at $2.00/1000 gallons. Selling at .05 cents per gallon would gross $1,250,000... that's a profit of $1,200,000 PER DAY, per plant! You've got to think outside the box to see the big picture... Now imagine 4 or 5 of these plants in each state in cities all along the coast...

[muriel_volestrangler]

26. The price of bottled water has nothing to do with this

Your reverse osmosis process costs $2/1000 gallons. Find out how much water supply charges are in the target area concerned. Here's the charge for Rome, Georgia - $2.08 for 750 gallons. So the amount it costs to produce the fresh water by reverse osmosis is about three quarters the price when it's been delivered to a customer (in a system where the water is obtained for free, because it falls as rain).

You're suggesting selling water at 5 cents a gallon - nearly 20 times what end users currently pay. That's price gouging, isn't it?

It might be a feasible business right next to the desalination plant, but you're not going to be able to pump it hundreds of miles inland too.

[Ghost in the Machine]

30. "That's price gouging, isn't it?"

No, not really... *someone* has to pay for all that pipe for the pipelines, delivery costs, construction costs and all other costs associated with the delivery of the finished product.

It might be a feasible business right next to the desalination plant, but you're not going to be able to pump it hundreds of miles inland too.

There's something else the "profits" could be used on. I believe I used the term "gross profit" in my explanation and breakdown of production costs. If not, oops, my bad. If you're selling water to another state, you're responsible for delivery, right?

I'm having a vision of interconnected pumping stations and even the possibility of pumping directly to some of the affected lakes and letting the states finish the treatment process with their existing systems.

I don't have all the answers... hell, I really don't have ANY of the answers.. just an idea and some questions. These thoughts just struck me when I read the article about Lake Mead, and I had to get the thoughts out of my head and written down somewhere...

[JCMach1]

23. The energy is mostly bi-product of electric production

Desalinization ain't what it used to be.

http://www.powergeneration.siemens.com/press/press-pictures/combined-cycle-power-plants/al-taweelah-2.htm

[wuushew]

9. No, but I do encourage stillsuits like they had in Dune

and the harvesting of the dead for their water.

[MiniMe]

10. If they do that, I think the inland states should build the plants

Why should the coastal states bear all the costs. Of course, Georgia is a coastal state. Hmmmmm.

[cloudythescribbler]

14. Yes, build them (actually they might make MONEY off the inland states)

[Ghost in the Machine]

16. The Coastal States Wouldn't Be Bearing The Costs

They would be profitting from selling the water to inland states and they would also be benifitting from a stronger economy caused by the jobs created.

The inland states *could* build their own pumping stations to help draw the water to them, but the coastal states *should* have some control over pumping, too.

It's a win/win situation for everyone, and could create jobs nationwide. They'll need crews working in every state getting pipelines installed, pumping stations built, etc., etc... We'll need truck drivers, equipment operators, pipefitters, welders, plumbers, boilermakers, laborers, carpenters, roofers, drywallers, painters, floor covering installers, concete pourers & finishers, iron workers, electricians, secretaries, project managers, supervisors, surveyors, engineers, architects, inside sales people, outside sales people, account reps and many other positions .... look at the jobs that can be created!

"Distillation plants having high capacities and using combustible fuels employ various devices to conserve heat. In the most common system a vacuum is applied to reduce the boiling point of the water, or a spray or thin film of water is exposed to high heat, causing flash evaporation; the water is flashed repeatedly, yielding fresh distilled water. This multistage flash distillation method is used in more than 2,000 desalination plants, including one in Saudi Arabia that produces 250 million gallons of freshwater per day.

Another method of desalination is by electrodialysis. When salt dissolves in water, it splits up into charged particles called ions. Placed in a container with a negative electrode at one end and a positive electrode at the other, the ions are filtered by the membranes as they are attracted toward the electrodes; they become trapped between semipermeable membranes, leaving outside the membranes a supply of desalinated water that can be tapped. The first large installation using this process began operating in South Africa in 1958, but its electrical demands make it impractical except where such energy is abundant.

By far the most promising approach is the reverse osmosis process, in which pressure is applied to saltwater to force it through a special membrane. Only pure water passes, leaving concentrated seawater behind. Where multistage flash distillation costs about $4 per 1,000 gallons, reverse osmosis costs about half that amount. This process is used by a plant in the Tampa Bay area, Florida, that produces 25 million gallons of drinking water a day. Another type uses an empty hollow sphere of semipermeable material that is lowered into the sea. The water flowing into the sphere is fresh, since the salt is excluded by the membrane that covers the entire sphere and is its guard.

One final approach is under development in Hawaii, where different layers of seawater display a large temperature differential. Here an Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion plant is being built which will use steam produced by the flash method to produce energy, then condense the steam into freshwater. Three such plants could produce a hundred megawatts of power, as well as supply 30% of Hawaii's water needs."

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0851566.html

[FogerRox]

11. Polywell fusion could power these plants

[JCMach1]

22. No need... normal energy production can desalinate as much as you want.

[jody]

12. Kuwait has little or no fresh water but it has lots of oil at least for a while. n/t

[XemaSab]

19. A few years ago the city of Santa Barbara was at risk of drying up

We built a desal plant and hooked up to state water.

The state water's flowing and the desal plant is drydocked.

It would be easier (and ultimately cheaper) to build a canal from say, the Missouri to near the headwaters of the Colorado, or from the Mississipi drainage to the southeast.

It's what we've done in California. There aren't many rivers in the state that run without some sort of diversion.

[DFW]

20. At SOME point, this will have to be done on a grand scale

Population is ever increasing, and fresh water is decreasing.

No fresh water, no life. It's that simple.

The sooner mankind gets busy with desalinization on a mass level, the better.

[JCMach1]

21. Desalinization Plants are a good idea

Ocean and areas that have good circulation there will be a minimal effect of the environment. In places like here in the UAE there have been minor effects as the Gulf becomes saltier over time.

Desalinization is also very efficient when coupled with power generation. The two systems work together in the state of the art plants we have here.



http://www.powergeneration.siemens.com/press/press-pictures/combined-cycle-power-plants/al-taweelah-2.htm

[The2ndWheel]

25. So to solve the problems caused by relentless consumption

we need to relentlessly consume?

If we do end up doing something like this, our environmental impact will increase. We can't possibly begin to harness the energy of oceans to only benefit us and not increase our impact. The planet evolved over a long period of time to support many forms of life, not just one. The more we take for ourselves, the less the rest of life gets. So all the climate change/global warming bullshit we tell ourselves about saving the environment will be a giant waste of time. All we ever end up doing is destroying the environment to save ourselves from it. We're fucking up life in the ocean already, and we're not even in there in any substantial way yet.

There are a few thousand years of momentum pushing us this way though. We can't stop, but we can't continue. Hell of a position to be in.

[flashl]

27. Great post. If 'we' will not create solutions ... the global water consortium has plans ...

A yearlong investigation by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ), a project of the Center for Public Integrity, showed that world's three largest water companies - France's Suez and Vivendi Environnement and British-based Thames Water, owned by Germany's RWE AG - have since 1990 expanded into every region of the world. Three other companies, Saur of France and United Utilities of England working in conjunction with Bechtel of the United States, have also successfully secured major international drinking water contracts. But their size pales in comparison to that of the big three.

...

Having firmly established themselves in Europe, Africa, Latin America, and Asia, the water companies are expanding into the far more lucrative market of the United States. In recent years, the three large European companies have gone on a buying spree of America 's largest private water utility companies, including USFilter and American Water Works Co. Inc. Peter Spillett, a senior executive with RWE's water unit Thames, said his company projects that within 10 years it will double its market to 150 million customers primarily because of expansion into the United States.

So far, the Europeans have privatized waterworks in several mid-sized U.S. cities, including Indianapolis and Camden, N.J., and are trying to secure contracts in New Orleans. However, their expansion recently ran aground in Atlanta, where the city canceled its 20-year contract - the largest of its kind in the United States - with a Suez subsidiary after only four years and returned control to the public utility.

The water companies have also dramatically increased their lobbying and federal election campaign spending. In Washington, they have already secured beneficial tax law changes and are now trying to persuade Congress to pass laws that would force cash-strapped municipal governments to consider privatization of their waterworks in exchange for federal grants and loans.

Government and industry studies have estimated that U.S. cities will need between $150 billion and $1 trillion over the next three decades to upgrade their aging waterworks.

International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, February 2003