Indigenous Rights #3: Treaties

[Iktomiwicasa]

One of the main bones of contention between various Native American Nations and the U.S. government has been the issue of treaties. A "treaty", as defined by the laws of the United States, is an agreement between two nations. Once ratified by the Senate a treaty has primacy over any other law save the U.S. Constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty

To be specific, in the case of my nation, a treaty was signed in 1868 that guaranteed the Black Hills to my people in perpetuity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Fort_Laramie_%281868%29

This agreement lasted exactly 9 years, when gold was discovered and the U.S. unilaterally abrogated the treaty. My personal feeling, and the opinion of many of my people, is that a government that ignores its own laws has lost any moral right to govern, and cannot reclaim that privilege unless and until it comes into compliance with its own laws.

Thanks for taking the time to look and answer my poll.

[tekisui]

1. kick.

These polls are great. I can't wait to see where we're going.

[azndndude]

2. Of course this will never happen,

The United States of America preaches to the world about the "RULE OF LAW" but never practices it here.
DUer from the Navajo Nation

[Iktomiwicasa]

3. Yup, nt

[azndndude]

4. Did you see my post today on Australia apologizing to Aborigines?

http://indianz.com/News/2008/007119.asp
Above link to story, The USA has never apologized to us about the treatment to our people. Probably never will.

[Iktomiwicasa]

5. I didn't see your post

but I read indianz and saw it there. No, they likely won't, but I did hear Obama acknowledge at a town hall meeting in Elko, NV, when asked about ndn issues by an elder of the Te-Moak Shoshone, that treaties were broken and that the state of indians and our treatment was an embarrassment to the government and the nation. First time I ever heard a presidential candidate, let alone a president, say as much.

[Muttocracy]

6. Obama or Clinton record on Indian affairs?

Do either of them have a record good or bad or anything of note on Indian affairs? I don't know how Clinton gets along with NY tribes (I live in upstate NY), and I don't know anything about tribes in Illinois.

I wonder if part of Obama's perspective is from growing up in Hawaii?

[azndndude]

7. Believe it or not , Republican Senator Brownback tried to get a bill passed

for an apology, got nowhere. Where were all the Democratic congressmen on this issue?

http://nativenews.wordpress.com/2007/11/03/should-us-government-apologize-for-american-indian-holocaust-web-commentary/

[BeHereNow]

8. Ha-hah-ha...is that a trick question?

"Where were all the Democratic congressmen on this issue?"

Where are the fuckers on ANY issue that MATTERS?

BHN

[Iktomiwicasa]

10. As you know

that's why I tend to lump all politicians together, regardless of party.

[BeHereNow]

11. Yup- Americans SHOULD have learned a valuable lesson through

their government's failure to honor their treaties with the
Indians. Seems they couldn't fathom that that treatment
would one day apply to them.
As in, the treaty of the constitution with we, the people has
now been brushed aside as well.

BHN

[Arctic Dave]

9. Like I said before

The US gov has never ever had a problem screwing the indigenous people out of everything of value they have ever had. Look at the way they have run the BIA. As soon as they find out there is something on your your lands they want, they will do everything they can to remove you from it. This poll reminds me of the book Catch-22.The Indian guy who can never get any sleep because as soon as he lays down the other guy is pushing him out of the way so he can start digging for treasure.
Me thinks me hears a metaphor.

[RuleOfNah]

12. I went with 2.

2. The federal government should open negotiations to restate terms and come to settlement

Completely honoring treaties would be honorable but it isn't realistic (even after restated terms, sadly). That isn't unique to internal treaties. I'm thinking something like South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission might be more likely to actually happen (but probably not while former Apartied mercs are still used by the USA and their outsourcers).

[countryjake]

13. If the USA ever had any intention of honoring the treaties they made...

they would have never made it out to your nation, in the first place.

With the Treaty of Greenville in 1795, perpetual peace was promised to the tribes of the Northwest Territory, along with much of Northern Ohio, almost all of Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, and the Northeastern part of Minnesota...promised as the Indian Territories. With no threat from white settlers ever again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Greenville




Even with the pleadings of men who did not sign those papers and never agreed to cede their homes; after the murders of leaders who had signed, even tho they'd kept their end of the bargain; and countless raids and bloody massacres of Indian villages on the granted territory, slaughtering whole families who thought they were safe within their boundaries, you can see the rapid-fire dates of entry into "The Union" of each of those "states", one right after the other, that by American word were never to be settled by whites.

http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Wisdom/Tecumseh.html

Since the date of your treaty is so recent, you'll have a better chance of getting your beloved mountains back than any of those tribes had of keeping their lands...most were virtually wiped from the history and the conscience of this country. But their grandchildren do not forget. And they will be glad to help America remember the many promises that were broken.

[Karenina]

14. K&R!

[genie_weenie]

15. If anyone is expecting the US Government to abide by

agreements it makes then you don't know anyone who's been Stop-Lossed...

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

19. Stop loss is in the enlistment agreement

My brother got stop loss for two years, its sucks but it is part of the agreement..

[genie_weenie]

35. Spirit of the Law vs. Letter of the Law

It wasn't added to military contracts until after Vietnam and the idea itself dates back to Julius Caesar who extended his legions enlistments when he crossed the Rubicon and installed himself as Dictator.

And when the law was challenged, the government (surprisingly) dismissed the cases out-of-hand.

[Iktomiwicasa]

16. bump for daytime crowd, eom

[Book Lover]

17. I truly am not sure how to answer this poll

If an indian tribe cannot enforce a treaty by the threat of the use of force/violence, any treaty signed is worthless. I almost want to say "Why bother with these pieces of paper?"

In the specific case of your tribe, have any of the monies awarded to the tribe been received?

[Iktomiwicasa]

18. Taking payement

for the Black Hills would extinguish our legal title to that land. We have refused payment, therefore our title is still valid. We want the Hills back.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

21. What about the lease revenues on Native American lands

that have been confiscated and stolen by the federal government? These are lands still owned by many nations and the lease revenues from their use by timber, cattle, and mining companies supposed to be collected and held in trust by the federal government that have completely disappeared over the last 100+ years. I understand that it's in the billions of dollars.

[Book Lover]

24. I understand now

Thank you for the clarification. In that case, I would have to vote for your second option because the circumstances are so changed from when that treaty was first signed (though as I understand it from your OP links, the treaty was abrogated when non-tribal settlers came to mine the gold and is therefore nonbinding on either party at this time {please correct me if that is wrong}) that the issue of resettlement of the non-tribal people in the area would have to be addressed within the framework of a treaty.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

25. I thought that treaties were on a par with the U.S. Constitution itself

under the Supremacy Clause:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

[Book Lover]

27. Yes, but....

Yes, but as I understand it, this particular treaty under discussion has been breached, and so is no longer in force. But I could easily be wrong. This is a complicated issue and one I am unfamiliar with.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

30. The Geneva Conventions are treaties

I'm not an expert on this issue either, but it seems to me that if we view any course of conduct that violates a treaty as being cause to consider that treaty abrogated and no longer in force, then we could claim that the Bush government's violations of the Geneva Conventions would also render them null and void under U.S. law. I'm not sure that argument could be advanced. I think it's more a question of enforcement. Native Americans are powerless to enforce treaties that continue to be as much the law as any of the rights under the U.S. Constitution. However, there must probably be a long line of case law that has interpreted the issue and it might make more sense to study them to see the pro and con.

[On the Road]

20. I Would Think That the Only Case in Which a Treaty Should Not be Honored

is when it conflicts with developments that have taken place since then, and honoring it would infringing the rights of others. For example, if a city has been built on a site previously awarded to an Indian tribe, the right answer would not be depriving the current residence of the rights to their own land. In this case, the second option of the poll is the right one -- that negotiations be opened to find an alternate settlement that's as fair as possible to both sides.

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. Absent some really strong overriding reality.

They should be fully observed.

The Makah whale hunt comes to mind. The endangered chinook salmon is another.

Simply wanting their stuff (e.g. the black hills gold) is not enough.

[uppityperson]

23. Give you back the Black Hills and make it part of your sovereign nation. eom

[BeHereNow]

26. Kicking...

bhn

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. I'm an adamant supporter of the U.S. Constitution.

And treaties signed by the U.S. are a part of the U.S. Constitution.

[BeHereNow]

29. And our government has honored NONE lately.

Not with Native Americans and not with the rest of us.

What's that saying?
What's done to one is done to all.

Americans never bothered to care about the government
breaking the treaties with the sovereign
Indian nations in within the US- or anywhere else for that
matter, now the American people are reaping what they
allowed to be sown in their back yard.

BHN

[Iktomiwicasa]

32. chickens coming home to roost

[BeHereNow]

33. What goes around comes around or...

Aint karma a bitch.
You wanna dance? Ya gotta pay the fiddler.

You get what you give.

And so forth
BHN

[Kurovski]

31. Kick. (nt)

[Book Lover]

34. kick

[countryjake]

36. futile kick

[RuleOfNah]

37. Empowering kick.

:kick:

[EFerrari]

38. And kick.