WOW: NIU shooter brought 3 of his guns legally on the same day.

[wndycty]

Gunman Planned Campus Shooting For At Least Six Days

-snip-
Law enforcement authorities told ABC News that Kazmierczak, bought most of his arsenal -- a 12 gauge shotgun, .22 pistol and a .9 mm pistol -- at a gun store in Champaign, Ill., on Saturday, indicating that he had planned the assault on the school for at least five days.

A .45 Glock semi-automatic handgun was also found on the scene and linked to him.

Kazmierczak had no history of mental illness and no history of arrests, which would have allowed him to qualify to buy the guns under the state's gun laws, sources said.

By all accounts Kazmierczak was a good student. Serving as a member of the NIU Academic Criminal Justice Assocation, and a teaching aid as an undergraduate. In 2006 he recieved a Dean's Award from the sociology department.
-snip-

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4293081&page=1

[slackmaster]

1. He may have had no documented history of mental illness

But it's abundantly clear that he was batshit crazy.

People rarely do something like that without giving some kind of warning to someone. He slipped through the cracks.

Worth noting here that California has a mandatory 10-day wait on firearm purchases, no cash-and-carry without certain qualifying licenses (law enforcement credentials, concealed weapons permit, or a state-issued "Certificate of Eligibility"). I'm no fan of delays in the exercise of civil rights, but I have to wonder if this is a rare case where such a delay might have prevented the crime.

[wndycty]

5. While it might be rare case it would be on the only case that matters to the victims

:kick:

[zanne]

49. He'd been planning it for five days.

I don't think a delay would have helped. You just don't know when someone gets a gun, legally or illegally, if they're going to use it to murder someone. Everybody has their breaking point, indicated by the number of domestic shootings there are in this country.

[villager]

2. well, that figures.

n/t

[spanone]

3. what, no waiting period for the 9mm?

[slackmaster]

6. Not in Illinois... WRONG

There is a waiting period.

[ProfessorGAC]

8. Thanks

So, the waiting period here is if you're filling out the form for the FOI card.

Thanks
GAC

[slackmaster]

10. No, you were right, there is a wait on handguns

:dunce:

Getting the FOID can take up to 30 days.

[dysfunctional press]

43. but i'm angry NOW!

nt

[midnight]

69. The account of the shooter reveals a caring fomer member of that

school. What happened?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

78. hmmmm

interesting?

[ProfessorGAC]

I Thought There Was Waiting Period in Illinois Too

Hmmm. Something seems amiss. Maybe you have to wait 10 days here, only if you're applying for the FOI card, or something. But, i was quite certain there is a waiting period here.
The Professor

[slackmaster]

9. You're correct according to the Brady Center - 72 hours for handguns

WAITING PERIOD
Is there a waiting period on gun sales? Yes

State law requires a 72-hour waiting period for all handgun sales and a 24-hour waiting period on all long gun sales. The waiting period is used by law enforcement to run a criminal background check to make sure the handgun buyer is not prohibited from acquiring firearms. In addition, state law requires gun buyers to obtain a Firearm Owner's Identification Card (FOID), before purchasing a firearm. Law enforcement may take up to 30 days to complete a background check on FOID Card applicants.

So it's likely the guy already had his FOID.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=il#wait

[RamboLiberal]

99. Instant Check replaced the Brady Waiting Period

A number of years ago. I know cause I've purchased a couple of handguns in the past few years and the paperwork and check take 30-60 minutes and then you pay for and get to take your gun home. Filling out the paperwork is a joy-NOT cause you can't abbreviate anything. And of course this was designed by bureaucrats probably from some state with 4-5 letters. Try putting Pennsylvania in a tiny box!

I don't know if Illinois has any state law that required a waiting period.

[Dimensio0]

15. Illinois does indeed require a waiting period for firearms purchases.

Long guns are subject to a twenty-four hour waiting period, while handguns are subject to a seventy-two hour waiting period. The waiting period is only waived for out-of-state residents purchasing long guns at gun shows.

[slackmaster]

16. 3 days wasn't enough in this case, but would a longer period have helped?

Impossible to say.

[frazzled]

4. And we don't need to revisit the issue of stricter gun laws?

I'd like to see the defense of why anyone needs to buy three guns in one day. Certainly, at least this kind of thing could be regulated more strictly.

I'm not sure that is indeed really legal in Illinois. So perhaps he just slipped through the enforcement cracks. But if it is legal, it should certainly be more tightly controlled.

[Squatch]

7. I've purchased three guns in one day.

It was a matched set of Winchester O/U shotguns.

[jmg257]

24. What model?? I just got a Select - very nice!

[Squatch]

27. Pigeon Grade 101s

:thumbsup:

I still want to get a lighter O/U for upland hunting, something like a Citori Feather. The Winnies feel kinda heavy after a while.

[jmg257]

28. BIG difference for me re: Winch vs Browning? - Belgium vs. Japan.

A few choice Brownings were on sale too - in 20ga like i REALLY wanted - beautiful, but I went with the Select (for now! ;))
Pigeon 101s - very nice! :thumbsup:

[Squatch]

29. My duck guns are Brownings...

Occasionally, I still hunt with my Dad's old Auto-5 (serial number 7xx!). It's the absolute best semi-auto I've ever hunted with. I semi-retired that shotgun and picked up a Gold Hunter, thinking it would have the same feel as the A-5...NOPE! Definitely not my favorite shotgun...I am not a fan of gas-operated semis.

[jmg257]

30. Picked up an SX2 last year - not too bad. Had an A5 Mag (Japan)- sold it towards something else...

Should have kept it as it was a beaut too (LNIB) - was my duck gun for years. 7xx - holy cow! DO keep that one safe!

Usually a more "oiled wood and blue" type - but something about the SX2 - and the price was really good! Of course the SX3 came out just after. :( ;)

[Squatch]

31. I have only one synthetic shotgun

it's a Tactical Benelli Super Nova pump...it's absolutely butt-ugly, but I'm sure it'll get the job done as a home defense gun.

I'm with you, though...something about the feel of an oiled wood stock. I just bought a Sig 229 Elite with rosewood grips, and that pistol is just an absolute comfort to shoot. :thumbsup:

(The other people in this thread are probably wondering WTF we're talking about)

[jmg257]

35. Can you say Benelli Tactical M1S90? I also got a Nova 20ga youth pump for my son!

Ahh - SIGs, I always choose Berettas back in the days - GREAT duty guns...more recently I finally got sucked into the polymer with Walther P99 & HK (for CCW)

ALL are quality anyway!

(I know - didn't want to turn it into a "gun" thread, but it always interesting talking about 'em!)

Cheers!

[Thothmes]

76. I use a Mossburg 12 guage with 18 and a quarter inch barrel.

It is also synthetic stock. Not a good looking gun, but it hold 6 rounds of two & three quarter inch buckshot.

[zanne]

50. You have nothing to be pround of, then. nt

[Squatch]

53. Sorry, I don't talk to crazy people

:shrug:

[slackmaster]

13. I've bought as many as six in a single purchase

But that was using my Federal Firearms License.

It might be worth looking at a way to flag multiple sales for closer scrutiny, not that it would have helped in this case.

[michreject]

33. Two will get you flagged

if it's from the same ffl. Different ffl's are treated as a single gun transaction.

[Raskolnik]

39. Do you define Constitutional rights by what you "need"?

I can't think of any "need" to buy three books in one day, either, but I don't care to have that factor into my right to do so.

[benEzra]

40. Illinois requires a license merely to possess any gun, plus full gun registration.

Its laws are among the strictest in the nation (California, New Jersey, and Massachusetts are the only ones that come close).

Illinois is also only one of two states that absolutely does not allow citizens to obtain a license to carry a firearm (the other is Wisconsin).

[aikoaiko]

94. When sellers have sales, people, especially collectors, sometimes buy multiples

[jmg257]

11. "What are the Gun Laws in Illinois?" See here...

http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/p/gunlaws_il.htm

Caution: Firearm laws frequently change and the following answers may not reflect changes in the laws.
Child Access Prevention Law? Yes
Juvenile Possession Law? Yes
Juvenile Sale/Transfer Law? Yes


State Requirements
Rifles and Shotguns
Permit to purchase rifles and shotguns? FOID Required.*

Registration of rifles and shotguns? No**

Licensing of owners of rifles and shotguns? FOID Required.*

Permit to carry rifles and shotguns? FOID Required.*

Handguns
Permit to purchase handgun? FOID Required.*

Registration of handguns? No.**

Licensing of owners of handguns? FOID Required.*

Permit to carry handguns? No***
* Subject to municipal control. Handguns have been banned in some municipalities.
** Chicago requires registration of all firearms.

*** Carrying a concealed weapon is prohibited entirely. A FOID is required to transport a handgun. See "Carrying."
...

Purchase
A buyer is required to show his Firearms Owner’s Identification Card (FOID) when purchasing any firearms or ammunition. Any seller is required to withhold delivery of any handgun for 72 hours, and of any rifle or shotgun for 24 hours, after the buyer and seller reach an agreement to purchase a firearm.
...
Carrying (Residents Only)
It is unlawful to carry or possess any firearm in any vehicle or concealed on or about the person, except on one's land or or fixed place of business.
It is unlawful to carry or possess any firearm on any public street or other public lands within the corporate limits of a city, village, or incorporated town, except when: an invitee thereon or therein, for the purpose of the display of firearms or the lawful commerce in firearms.
...

[EFerrari]

12. I don't understand how you can walk onto a college campus

holding a shotgun. :shrug:

[Tesha]

20. Surely you can think of a dozen ways to conceal it. (NT)

[Squatch]

23. When I lived on campus back in the early 1990's I had a Remington 870

under my bed. You could check it in to and out of the campus police station between midday hours (something like 10 to 12), which wasn't sufficient for me since it was my duck gun and I usually started hunting well before sunup (preparing, that is. I never actually "hunted" until designated hunting times).

[LostinVA]

34. He had it in a guitar case, according to the article I read

[EFerrari]

56. I thought about it after Tesha replied to me and there's two

hardshelled cases here that would accommodate such an item. Dear gawd.

[slackmaster]

46. Maybe the rule prohibiting firearms on campus wasn't clearly posted

It could have been a simple misunderstanding.

:sarcasm:

[Thothmes]

77. News story said he carried it in a guitar case

[greatauntoftriplets]

87. It was hidden in a guitar case.

:shrug:

[Nailzberg]

97. Grab a guitar case or an art portfolio and you'll fit right in on campus.

[davepc]

14. Doesn't IL require a FOID card?

http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/

So he passed a backround check thats more rohbust then the NICS check done at the point of sale.

[wndycty]

18. Yeah but one must wonder why anyone, not in law enforcement, would need to buy 3 guns at a time

:kick:

[davepc]

19. why not?

[slackmaster]

21. As a collector I often make multiple purchases

But I buy curios and relics, not brand-new firearms.

[jmg257]

22. I bought 2 the other day, big sale and they had a shotgun I liked and a youth model my son could use

[wndycty]

25. Could you cope if there were a limit on the numbers guns you can get in one purchase?

:kick:

[jmg257]

26. Yes - no problem - they could hold them for me. (and I have like NO patience but I would understand

[Thothmes]

79. In Virginia, one hand gun per month max. That is if you

use your own name.

[fascisthunter]

44. There Seems to be no NEED... More of a Desire Due to a Hobby

saftey vs hobby

Hmmmmmmmmm....

[Raskolnik]

74. No more than the NEED to buy a bunch of books at one time

If you're willing to trade constitutional rights for the promise of a slight increase in safety, you're not much of a hunter of fascists, my friend.

[fascisthunter]

80. "No more than the NEED to buy a bunch of books at one time" Books vs Guns?

First off, only paranoid people feel the NEED to buy guns to feel "safer". We don't live in the Wild Wild West anymore.... we live in a time where your right to own a gun is getting many innocent people killed for a little of what you consider, "safety". What good is your right if it doesn't protect, yet kills more than it protects? When is regulating ok with you...? Can you buy a nuke? No.... oh the shame of us tyrants!!!!!

Likewise, go into a theater and scream, "Fire"! Go ahead..... and ask why it's not permitted. Here's my answer: because it endangers the people in that theatre... it's irresponsible to the safety of others. Your precious guns get the same treatment, yet are far more dangerous because they designed to kill! There is NOTHING wrong with regulating guns no matter how you try spinning it.

Time to meet people in your own country half-way! When society is endangered, We the People have every right to regulate guns. That's called a democracy.

[Raskolnik]

89. I don't think you've considered what your analogy means.

Likewise, go into a theater and scream, "Fire"! Go ahead..... and ask why it's not permitted. Here's my answer: because it endangers the people in that theatre... it's irresponsible to the safety of others.

That's a good analogy, so let's use it. Does the fact that its possible to misuse the freedom of speech make it acceptable to regulate it out of existence? Does the possibility that I may yell "fire" in a crowded theater make it acceptable for the government to prevent me from making a political speech? Of course not--the mere fact that someone may abuse a right does NOT make it acceptable to take that right away from the rest of society. It's illegal to use firearms in certain ways, just as it's illegal to use speech in certain ways. I don't think the right to own firearms is unfettered just as I don't think the right to free speech is without legitimate limits. Being a fan of the Constitution, however, (particularly those first ten amendments) I am not nearly as quick to shout for abridging those rights as you seem to be.

Your precious guns get the same treatment, yet are far more dangerous because they designed to kill!

If you truly think that speech isn't incredibly dangerous, you need to get off the internet for a while and read some history.

Time to meet people in your own country half-way! When society is endangered, We the People have every right to regulate guns. That's called a democracy.

Were you this quick to embrace the Patriot Act because Bush promised it would bring us some added safety?

[jmg257]

90. Another "yell fire" analogist..OK - fine - agreed - we won't yell fire in theaters and we won't

commit crimes with our guns, or misuse them in any other way. (Of course if there IS a fire, then we will shout Fire! - that is OK right?)

So is that the extent of your "regulations"?

Great - then as long as "crimes" would be those that are generally already accepted to constitute violating the rights of others, we are in agreement - not a problem, and NO issue with regards to infringment on basic rights.

A wonderful solution we can all get behind.

[fascisthunter]

91. That Wasn't the Point I Was Making....

Rights are curtailed for the over all safety of society. The "yelling Fire analogy" is to point out that we already curtail freedoms to ensure safety.

[TheCowsCameHome]

17. Too bad he didn't do a practice run on himself first.

[MiniMe]

32. You might want to clarify the title

I originally thought you meant on the same day as the shooting. I now realize that you are talking about purchased them on the same day 5 days before the shooting. :hi:

[KharmaTrain]

36. Here;s The Loophole...

I served on a jury involving a straw gun purchase several years ago and the gun laws are very ambiguous in Illinois and I could easily see him getting these guns without any detection.

As long as he has a valid FOID card, he can go to a gunshop and purchase one gun per week without as much as the store owner looking at the card and that's about it. He could go to another gun store the same day and purchased another gun, and again, show the FOID card and as long as the card checked out, he would be on his way. It's only when you make multiple purchases that the ATF is then notified. So, as long as his record was clean he and the gun store owners were all legal in what happened here.

[slackmaster]

37. I don't see anything there that fits any reasonable definition of loophole

Please explain.

[KharmaTrain]

38. The Misconception

The question was how could he have purchased guns without setting off any "red flags"...a rhetorical question when these things occur. I was trying to explain that according to Illionis law as long as someone has a valid FOID card, they can purchase one gun per visit at a gun store with little more than having the card checked out and that's it. The gun dealer doesn't have to report the sale to the state other than a title transfer, which can take days or weeks. He can then go to a second gun store, purchase another gun and the same rule applies...as long as he checks out and is only purchasing one gun, the only notification has to be to the state through processing the proper paperwork. In essence someone could go to a dozen gun shops a day and purchase a dozen guns and the state wouldn't get much notice other than checks on the FOID card (which should be checked before a purchase...so he could be "windowshopping" at several stores) and then the paperwork in the mail. The ATF doesn't require notification unless there are more than one gun purchased at a time or if a second gun is purchased within the "waiting limit" time...which I think is still 7 days.

I was hoping to explain how someone could easily purchase several guns in the same day and it would go undetected by the ATF.

[slackmaster]

41. OK, but the ATF doesn't generally do anything about multi-handgun purchases anyway

Whether or not they should do anything about as a matter of routine business is up for debate.

[fascisthunter]

42. WTF!? Three Guns to Somebody with Mental Illness?!?!?!?!

That should have NEVER happened!

[slackmaster]

47. Only if you have been adjudicated as incompetent, or institutionalized

Mentally ill people have the same rights as everyone else.

[fascisthunter]

48. With Guns???? Dude... You are Rabidly Pro-Gun

Do you work for the NRA or something?

PS - it's not about rights, so skip the BS.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

51. It's a problem..

and in light of this latest massacre, I know that's putting it mildly.

We have very scant uniform definitions of "mental illness" -- such as would be necessary to prevent someone from purchasing a gun. Many people suffering from severe mental illness can avoid being institutionalized or found incompetent. They would be off the radar (as this guy apparently was) for the purpose of purchasing a firearm.

And then you have the tricky issue of the privacy of medical records. Are we going to say that medical records are private, but then allow a clerk at Wal-Mart to tap into a database that holds recrods of an individual's medical history -- and bear in mind that the individual whose records are being accessed might be YOU. Identity Theft and all that.

I don't know how you can adequately stop someone suffering from mental illness (undiagnosed or otherwise) from being able to purchase a firearm.

[fascisthunter]

52. Yeah, Well, There Better Be a Way or We Will See More Incidents

I'm cool with folks having the "right" to buy a fire arm, I'm also for privacy rights, but when it starts to endanger society like this story, we all need to take actions to ensure rights are protected while society is kept safe.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

55. I hear you...

I don't necessarily mind having my mental health records available for review if I were purchasing a gun -- one of those things you would just have to agree to if you want to make the purchase. I'm a little concerned, however, that having everybody's information available (likely in a online database) would provide just too tempting a target for electronic thieves.

We need a way to uniformly identify those who are a danger to themselves and others, and then a way to flag them on a secure database so that they can be rejected. One alternative is to require gun permits to be issued in person by local law enforcement (similar to the issuance of a driver's license). If the person doesn't seem emotionally stable, the cops can defer the permit long enough to do a more extensive background check.

[fascisthunter]

57. You Make Good Points

Would I mind making my mental health records available to buy a fire arm? I'd say yes as well, since it is a dangerous weapon... I just think it would be more responsible to divulge such information.

[slackmaster]

63. Jeff, that secure database you say we need already exists

National Instant Check System or NICS, a product of the permanent provisions of the Brady Act.

It's a list of people who are prohibited from buying a firearm for any reason.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

64. My understanding of the NICS

is that it's not entirely complete and/or accurate. I have no first-hand knowledge, as the last firearm I bought (Marlin .30) was about twenty years ago -- I've just read posts from more avid gun collectors to the effect that the system has some flaws. If it can be made current -- no small order -- then it might be sufficient. But people have to understand that there will always be glitches and mistakes made.

I don't know what makes these young men go off the rails like this. Sure there are more guns in our society, but there are lots of guns in Canada and you hardly ever hear about this sort of thing up there. And while they are harder to come by, you can also purchase firearms in Europe. What makes Americans so damned violent?

[slackmaster]

66. No large database is ever entirely complete or accurate

IMO the biggest single problem with NICS is that mental health adjudications are not uniformly and promptly reported by all states.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

70. When they are made and reported at all...

Basically, you have to have been in the criminal justice system to have been adjudicated mentally incompetent. The streets are full of homeless persons who have never committed a crime other than vagrancy.

[slackmaster]

71. Homeless people generally can't afford firearms

So that aspect is really a non-problem.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

73. True...

And I would home that any homeless vagrant who attempted to do so (even in the sleaziest pawn shop) would be stopped by the good sense of the owner.

[slackmaster]

58. You could just read my profile if you want to know my vested interest in firearms

I've never tried to hide that from the DU community.

PS - it's not about rights...

It most certainly is!

And I am not rabidly pro-gun. I am radically pro-liberty. Like other people with disabilities, most people with garden-variety psychological issues do not pose a danger to themselves or others.

[jmg257]

65. Of course it's about rights - and limiting them without due process is unconstitutional.

You do know why right? To keep those in power from arbitrarily abusing the people? To keep those in power from being able to strip individuals & groups of people of their unalienable rights at will? To keep those in power from silencing, disarming or locking away those in dissent? And to keep an overbearing majority from infringing on the basic rights of the minority?

Such as it is with all absolute rights - our liberty is founded on the idea that they ALWAYS be secure.

[dysfunctional press]

45. when i was at u of i in the 80's, a friend of mine bought a .38 pistol at a champaign pawn shop.

i don't recall if there was a waiting period at that time or not.

[benEzra]

61. In Illinois, you must first obtain a license (FOID) from the police before you may even touch a gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOID

That requirement goes back to at least 1967, so yes, he had to jump through quite a few hoops before purchasing it. The statute allows 30 days for FOID issuance.

Illinois also has full gun registration, and is one of only two states that does not allow qualified citizens to obtain a license to carry a gun (the other being Wisconsin).

[dysfunctional press]

67. he already had the foid card...

he'd had it since high school.

[KG]

54. well, there ya go. he one of those wonderful law abiding gun-owners i keep hearing about

up until the second he wasn't.

[Mountainman]

59. What are you trying to say?

[madokie]

60. One must not forget it wasn't the guns fault

explain how it is if it is, maybe I'm way out there, we'll see, huh

[KG]

62. it never is. guns are never the reason people die with bullets in them.

i learned this reading DU. really.

[madokie]

72. You know that is kind of funny

guns killing people. a gun is a tool sometimes used in killing ones fellow person but in itself, of which it has no, itself, it does not kill.

[fascisthunter]

75. Right... that "tool" Wasn't Created for that Purpose: killing

it's all just a misunderstanding...

It's both: the gun and the person, not one without the other. That's why strict regulation of a dangerous (not "tool" but weapons) are granted by our government and the people being represented.

[beevul]

98. So what?

Would you kindly explain exactly what difference it makes in your opinion whether or not a particular firearm was or was not created for the purpose of killing?

[krispos42]

68. Something to remember...

In any given year that a murder occurs on a school campus, there are a thousand that occur someplace else.

K-12 homicides by school year (July 1 to June 30)


1992–93 34
1993–94 29
1994–95 28
1995–96 32
1996–97 28
1997–98 34
1998–99 33
1999–2000 13
2000–01 11
2001–02 14
2002–03 18
2003–04 21
2004–05 21
2005–06 14

In 2006 there were about 16,000 murders total in the US, so for every flamboyantly gay 14-year-old shot by a bigot-in-training 1,143 men, woman, and children were killed, largely without fanfare and a media blitz.

1999 was the Columbine Massacre, and even with that tragedy it wasn't the worst year in the past 15.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/iscs07.pdf

Report page 68, PDF page 94

Obviously this doesn't include post-secondary education, but it's an indication.

[Thothmes]

83. Any reason for the sudden drop in k-12 homicides

after the 2000 elections?. One would have thought that the numbers should have been been reversed.

[Junkdrawer]

84. Post-Columbine security measures?

:shrug:

[Thothmes]

85. Hadnt thought of that

[krispos42]

92. Dunno, but there are couple of possibilities

Juest speaking off of the top of my head, I think that probably after Columbine there were more security precautions in place. Probably students and parents were a bit more alert to potential problems, as well.

The homicide rate as a whole was going down, but I don't see how this would effect schools particularly.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

81. like buying 3 packets of Cornflakes

I know they can get them on the black market but really do we need to have guns THAT readily available in stores? I suggest there should be a lot more scrutiny in all states of who buys what guns.

[Dimensio0]

86. Please elaborate.

Please state the nature and extent of the "scrutiny" that you would propose.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

88. more along the lines of other countries

but with more background checks.

[Dimensio0]

96. There are many other countries.

Different countries have differen policies. To which country or countries did you refer?

[B Calm]

82. Liberal gun laws?

[Orsino]

93. This indicates only that he wanted guns five days ahead...

...and tells us nothing about whether/how he planned to fire them.

[slackmaster]

95. UPDATE - Looks like those gun purchases may not have been legal after all

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2876038